See, she didn't ask you for your permission to hug you. That's the problem. In her frame, in her map of the world, and your relationship, and her place in it, and yours, you are subservient to her wishes, and there's nothing she has to do to earn your affection. She's got it, she's in no danger of losing it, and as a result she doesn't value it.

GC

GrayCloud,

I appreciate your insight. You have been there. Regarding her brain dead IC, I too believe he is oblivious to the effects of the affair. She told me after one of the first sessions that he said the affair was just a tiny part of the issues; it was just the results of the problems. So he is focusing on the problems,…I guess. Which seem to be her “finding herself”. Being a pleaser she capitulates and does not stand up to what she feels or believes. The hug issues etc. is her exercise in “control” and independence.
I agree that she does need to be able to state her feelings, needs, wants, without fear that she will lose respect or someone not liking her. So the abuse does complicate everything.
I guess where I am getting my hopes up is that the threat of separation seems to be diminishing. She is talking about and tackling projects around the house. In fact, things almost seem normal except for the lack of SF.
I do not feel the time is right to give her the ultimatum. Believe me, I have those thoughts thou. Get in or get out. Staying with someone that is not obviously returning love and meeting your needs is a challenge,
I think you are right to that she knows that I am here and does not feel the threat of loosing anything. That could be a powerful motivator to choose. I think at some point I will be there. I wish I had hard evidence that contact was being made with the OM, that would make the justification for an ultimatum easier.

The thing is I cannot see how their relationship could ever work long term. She would have to give up everything, me, her boys, my family, her career, and her best friends. She would have to relocate. Sometimes I think she understands this, and maybe believes herself that it would never work, but those feelings she had when deep in the fantasy are very appealing. A new life where everything is wonderful, feelings of love, a nice apartment with a walk-in closet and clean laundry room, social activities in a bigger city, etc, etc, and that is what is keeping her in withdrawal. If she re-commits with me than she in turn is letting go of the fantasy life.

Did you goes this route with your relationship or is it something you look back in hindsight and wish you had done?

hmmmmmmm victim identity sucks

BOOK <~~~ try this

"For these people and millions like them, too much time is dedicated to repeating the ugly dynamics of childhood in a vain attempt to repair or cope with deep hurt and longings. Too often they use their emotional pain to control others or excuse their own inappropriate and destructive behaviors. Some turn to therapy, only to find themselves trapped in their self-pitying victim mode, robbed of optimism, confidence, and growth. "

People with deep childhood hurts can spend the rest of their lives and most of their money talking about it rather than doing something different!

I think there is money to be made in the "core hurts" industry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Pep,
One of the crazy parts to this is that her career is Victim Advocate!
That does seem to be where she is placing the blame, on her abuse....and on me. But she will admit(to me) that part of the problems in our marriage were her fault. (probably the part where she thinks she should have left! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
I do think the abuse was a big factor in our marriage problems. One of her complaints was the lack of compliments. From my point of view, I did give her compliments and she would discount them everytime. But, what she needed was constant compliments and assurances.If she is working out she will ask "how do my arms look?" or "can you tell I've lost weight?" numerous times in one day. It seemed to be almost obsessive.
And she does seem to like letting everyone know that we are having marital problems. I've actually thought that could be part of this. If we resolve this, then she wouldn't be able to get the attention (sympathy) from freinds and co-workers. Another strange way of getting acceptance and people to like her.
It sure would be easier if there wasn't any kids, she wasn't so damn beautiful, so sweet.(most of the time), and I didn't love her!!! hah

I have a question about depression. Maybe some of you that have been through this can give me some insight.
My WW, who I think is somewhere in withdrawel/recovery, talks about being mentally on the edge. My father passed away last friday and she called her doctor and had anti-depressents prescribed. She has not gotten the prescription filled. She says she doesn;t want to take them now. She talks about depression and being on the edge, but I see a rather happy demeanor. She defeinatly does not seem depressed to me at all. About four weeks ago she was. She had several nights of crying fits when she was going to move out. I thought she was spiraling down at that point and told her so. But now with the decision to stay (for two months) she seems to be getting stronger and stronger each day, joking etc. and really in pretty good spirits.
Any clues to this behavior? Residual effects of withdrawel or liking the attention that gives her?

One of the crazy parts to this is that her career is Victim Advocate!

Ding.

But she will admit(to me) that part of the problems in our marriage were her fault.

Ding.

One of her complaints was the lack of compliments. From my point of view, I did give her compliments and she would discount them everytime.

Ding.

All these factors were present when my marriage ended. The OM's mother was some kind of counselor for abused women. She helped at least one of the APs into a tortured and clearly false state of victimhood.

My wife had reached a point where all my compliments just bounced off her. It didn't matter that I constantly complimented her appearance. When OM mooned over her it made her socks roll up and down. When I did it, it was just same ole, same ole. My presentation hadn't changed, and by then it had lost its impact.

And when my wife left, she tried to nobly accept partial blame. It was of the "See, we're just no good for each other and there's nothing anyone can do about it" variety.

But for what it's worth, your wife has stuck around longer than mine did. Possibly the children make a big difference.

Regarding your question...

Did you goes this route with your relationship or is it something you look back in hindsight and wish you had done?

I did not go the route I suggested to you. I sucked it up. I tried to be the most wonderful partner imaginable, and I had been a good husband to begin with. Almost the model, though of course not perfect. I acknowledged my faults and asked her to help me with my bad habits. I tried not to complain when she was cold or snotty. I did all the work around the house. I didn't bombard her with affection. When she got surly I offered her something to drink and went away.

I don't regret how I handled things. But I wouldn't do it that way now. Mainly, I wouldn't be a sure thing. I would insist on certain non-negotiable steps. Absent agreement on any of them, I would send her packing immediately. I wouldn't bother trying to explain anything to her or trying to convince her of anything. I wouldn't complain about how much anything was hurting me. I'd say, here are the things that can happen in my life. Having my partner in an active affair isn't one of them. Having a spouse in some half-baked state of affair withdrawal with no plan wouldn't be either.

I don't think I like the word "ultimatum". It's not like that. It's not do this or else, it's I'll allow this in my house; I won't allow that in my house, end of story.

GC

GrayCloud,

Sounds like our situations are similar. I know you are correct about the kids. She even told me a few months back that she would have left if not for the kids. However, they are both boys with one being 15 and the other 17. I think she knows that at least with the older one she would loose most of the time left as he told her he would not live at the house she rented.
When this thing starts to resolve itself, I am sure i will look back and say I would do things differently too. Probably too many emotions wrapped up in all of this to see clearly while I am in it.
I am not quite ready to lay down the boundries. I do not have any hard evidence of continued contact. My plan is to continue the plan A I am in for a little while longer to see how she continues to behave. I have not set a time frame for this yet. I have been thinking about it. I sure am getting tired of the lack of committment on her part.
She will say she is trying, but I don't know what that really means....if anything. No MC, no ILY's, no SF.
We did have phone conversation this evening where she asked about sex. She states that she just doesn't want it at all and doesn;t understand why guys do. Then she asked me what I thought. I told her that the first thing is that "we" have to want to work on the marriage. After that, anything is possible. She then said something about if the marriage didn't work then she would be the "bad guy". I had to correct her because that is not what I meant. I meant that if WE are committed to working on the marriage then I think everything CAN work out.
I typically don't get into these conversations but she asked. She seems to be in a very good mood tonight, but who the ****** really knows what is going on inside her head????

robm,

I posting just to let you know that I'm in almost the same boat you are in. My WW had a EA and I'm not seeing hardly any signs from her concerning working on our M. I am in Plan A, and like you, I don't get too much back from her. WW never had the childhood problems yours did, but that is about the only diff. Setting bounderies will come in time judt like your sitch. I just wanted to let you know that there are others out there like you. I'm working my [email]A@@[/email] off trying to save our M and I seem to get no help. Keep up the good work, you sound like a very strong man and maybe one day your W will see that too.
me 36
WW 33
DS5
DD2
dday 5-8-06
Plan A 5-20-06

robm,

Sorry to hear about your father. Not the best time if there ever was a good time for that.

God Bless,
M2L

Hi Maybe,
It does help to chat with others going through the same issues. It's a very frustrating, emotional roller-coaster ride. Not knowing the outcome or what is potentially going on behind your back is horrible.
It looks like your dates are close to mine.
Yesterday was my father's funeral. A very tough day. He was a retired minister and pastoral counsilor. He spent some sessions with my WW and she bonded with him. She felt like he was the dad she never had and it was hard for her too. She has been very comforting to me and receptive to hugs etc.
She broke down crying Monday afternoon as I was dealing with the loss. She tried to be strong for me but I ended up comforting her.
Tuesday morning, the day of the funeral, she was hugging me in bed and we talked a little. I told her that I would survive no matter what she did. She keeps claiming that I never loved her and she doesn;t think I do now. I told her that of course I did, and still do, that I don't think she knows what love is because of her abuse. She broke down again into a major cry.
After the funeral she took her first prozac. She took another this morning. I told her I would let her know if it diminsihed her sex drive....hah!
Does anyone know how taking prozac might affect her in regards to all of this?
Seems that I have also read that the longer she stays the harder it will be for her to leave. Can someone clarify this?

Thanks!

robm,

WW - what are we to do with them? Of course you love your W, you wouldn't be with her right now if you didn't. I don't know how they can ask that question. If we didn't love them then we would have been miles down the road by now. My WW asked me two things that seemed weird. I went to give her a back rub and she asked me "how could you want to touch me?" and "how could you still love me?" Your WW ask any of those things? I told my WW that on our M day I said for better or worse, well now it's worse and I'm not running away, that I would work on my part to A be a better person and B to be a better H and father. I have made many changes in me that I did for me and now I can say that I like me. I haven't felt that way for a few years. Do you and your W get along on a daily basis? We do, but we hardly ever talk about our M or R or the EA. I don't want to push it right now because my WW is somewhere in between all of the categories I have read here. I'm not sure I know where I'm at with her, but I know she is still at home and we do get along fine, but like you no SF for about 5 months now. Is that normal? You said that your W has lost her drive for SF, mine too. I'm trying to be her best friend and be there for her. Told her all of that too and I have shown her the EN form and asked her to fill it out. She is not up to it right now, maybe later. Like you, I don't want to push too much. I have read to BS need to be patient. Post back with any questions you may have or just to vent to me, keep it away from your W. I know what you are going through. I went for IC a few days ago and told the C all about what I'm doing for me and how I talk to my W and what my W says back to me and his response was " she sure is giving you mixed signals." NO KIDDING and I'm paying for this advise. He did say to keep doing what I'm doing for now. So maybe you and I are doing all we can and it's the right thing for now. I'll be checking back if you need to vent or just talk.
M2L

Maybe,

Yea, seems very similar. We are getting along fine. Taking care of the boys, jobs, house, etc. Her grandmothers funeral and my fathers has added more stress and other dynamics to all this.
Like you, I don't know exactly where she is at. She went back and forth on separation. She finally rented a house and was going to move, bought some furniture, but then couldn't do it. That was 4 weeks ago. The house is still there and she could decide to go any time.
Her typcial response to my stating love is "I don't know why". So pretty much the same thing your WW says. Might be the guilt talking, don't know. These days she generally just says "Thank You" when I tell her I love her before going to sleep or leaving in the morning.

I am so ready for her to "come back" and start a healthy recovery. Not sure when or even if that will happen. Keeping my hopes up.

Don't tell her you love her! Heavens to murgatroyd! That's from the first day of Surviving an Affair 101.

For your own good, don't be such a softie. It doesn't help. You need to be living your life, setting boundaries, and hitting your partner's ENs when you can.

I'm real sorry about your father.

GC

So my WW just called me. She was on the way to her IC session. She asked me if I could think of anything significant that she needed to talk to him about. I mentioned the prozac and my fathers funeral. She had that writtem down. Then I said "and that you really do love me". She said Rob, you know that i really care for you, can't you tell?. I said yes and I was joking. She said, don't do that, you know I'm on the edge. Then she told me she discovered two of her coworkers girlfriends are on AD's. One is her age. She asked what happens to women at 44? I told her as i have before, you throw in aging, kids getting ready to leave the home, child abuse, and everything else into the pot, stir that up and you have a mess.
She said it is probably a very difficult time for couples with good marraiges let alone ones that are not good like ours. (I think my marriage was much better than hers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
Her tone in all of this is lighthearted.
Anyway, just an interesting conversation..... in her mind that affair was not an affair and it has virtually nothing to do with our situation, and this is reinforced by her IC.

GrayCloud.

I am getting conflicting advice on this. If her top two EN's are conversation (no problem) and the other is affection, then how do I meet that? Think I will go back and re-read the surviving the affair....ah, so much to remember!

" [color:"blue"] [/color] ."


So, I have been telling her I Love her and giving her affection, hugs, flowers etc. But not constantly etc.
What do you think???

MMm, here is the paste that didn't make it when i changed the font color....

" suggest you do tell her you love her - just not every other sentence. Don't be over bearing. At this point it may make her feel bad/guilty. It may make you come across as trying too hard. Same for affection - don't be too touchy. This is where being a bit aloof or mysterious comes into play. Not in a manipulative way, but in a flirty way. Pull back a little and make her wonder what you're thinking."

GrayCloud,

I found this from Dr. Harley responding to a letter from a BH,

"Call her, send her flowers, tell her how much you love her, how much you miss her. Don't smother her, but let her know in no uncertain terms that you value your relationship with her.

Even though you have been very hurt by her affair, don't blame her for it. Don't expect her to apologize and don't ask her to explain the gory details.

She is probably suffering depression over the relationship not working out. It's a common symptom of withdrawal. She will want to talk to someone about how badly she feels. Try to be the one she confides in, even if what she says is how much she misses this other man. DON'T JUDGE HER! If you do, she simply won't open up to you. If you can't handle it, she should talk to a friend or a counselor, but don't risk losing her by venting your anger or your judgment on her. "

In this scenario, the OP decided to stay in his marriage.
I know that you have stated that I should consider my situation as an active affair. You could be right. But I have no evidence and she could be in withdrawl.

Your WW is whining that she doesn't deserve your love, and saying "Do you really?" when you say you love her. And did I read right that she also has said "Thank you" in response to an ILY (sorry, short on time here)? Regardless of her ENs, I take these responses to mean your ILY's are not satisfying her need but are chafing at her and highlighting the numbness of her feelings toward you, thereby illustrating that the two of you are a million miles apart right now.

Sorry, gotta go.

gc

Rob,

I don't give ILYs too much, maybe one every 2/3 weeks or if the sitch might call for it. I don't want to remind my WW that I'm so in love with her and that she still doesn't feel the same way toward me yet. GC is right about not saying it too much I think. One more thing I will share that might help you, your choice if it may help or not. My WW told me last week to back off some and let her have time to deal with this in her mind. That doesn't mean she wants time apart, just not having to talk about some aspect of OM, EA, M, R or anything like that. So I have backed off more than I thought I had. I don't call as often or sometimes I'm just a little more removed. Not so much that she thinks I don't care, but enough that she doesn't feel put upon either. I'll give that a try for a while. Sometimes I don't answer a call from her right away. Sure is a fine line between enough and too much.
good luck

WW told me that in her IC today that he focused on her abuse from her father and how it relates to her current issues, our marriage and my father. She said it was a jaw dropping session, she felt stunned and had butterflies in her stomach. I asked her to share with me sometime, she said probably not today as it has been a weepy day.
Anyway, she came home from work. I had fixed dinner (I have always done most of the cooking). She sat down and told me about stuff that went on at her work. We made plans to go watch one of our boys in marching band at an out of town HS game. I suggested it and she said she was thinking the same thing and seemed excited.
She waffled alot about going running, or to the gymn, or staying home. She finally decided to go to the gymn. As she was going out the door she stopped leaned toward me and made a kiss smacking sound, so i got up and gave her a little hug, said bye. Told her I was proud of he that she was going to work out.
Anyway, I'm really a little conflicted on this ILY frequency issue. Not to long ago as we were laying in bed, she had her eyes closed and I told her I loved her, she smiled, I asked her if that made her happy and she nodded and smiled. She has initiated some hugs recently, like this evening.
I think we are getting past the don't touch, don't smoother phase. We were in a "let me initiate the hugs" phase. She doesn;t seem to be dead inside to me anymore. She has told me several times in the last few days she really cares for me.
She said that early on after DDAy, but I felt that was just something most say in the fog. Recently it is backed up with actions. She did come home from work Monday afternoon when I was in a deep sad funk the day before my fathers funeral. I can't help that. It is a very tough thing to watch your father pass on and your mother/sisters grieve.
She wanted to "take care of me" they way I had for her in her crying breakdowns. She took my socks off and was giving me a foot massage and then I asked for a hug and we both broke down as she laid on top of me. Thats when I ended up caring for her again.
I guess this is all to say that I don't think we are millions of miles apart.....but then again.... the total lack of trust, the fear that she could be having contact (phone or email if any) sometimes overwhelms that hope that She is in recovery. Wish I knew for sure......