An update for those following my situation: WW told me a few details of the IC session. It seems that I have become the father and she has become the daughter in our marriage. That is why she does not want any sex etc. I told her I didn't want to be her dad.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Actually, it was one of the most enjoyable evenings. Lots of joking and laughing....she said something about being the oldest child, I was asking her "who's your daddy"...etc. Ended with me giving her a head/neck massage...her asking me what I thought of her (proud, want her to get happy) and what I thought about us (hopeful, etc). Really felt good and close.....We will see what tomarrow brings....

robm,
I think this is the part that others have talked about where you stay still and let her come to you. When your w made smaking sound, you got up and gave her a hug. Instead of getting up maybe you just give a smile back or pretend to catch the kiss in the air. I have read many posts where the BH does this and the WW is drawn back to him sorta. Let your W snowball her feelings for you and you stay still. Keep planning things for the two of you to do, but still don't go over the top yet. I know it is hard becasue you are getting good signals right now.
Good luck to you and your M

Good advice Maybe. It is difficult for me to hold back....very.
I am getting good signals but I have a constant fear of a flip-flop by her. I find it very difficult to not worry and wonder all the time.
The OM lives in another city that is over an hours drive. I can account for her time. But sense she started working again, she could be communicating via email or phone. Only during working hours of course. I have no way of knowing. I would suspect that if they were talking it would be more along the lines of how things are going etc....leaving the door open for the future but not planning it at this time...
So that eats on me. Hate the not knowing part of this.
I know plan A is to work on myself, but how can you not be consumed with the thought of 18 years of marriage and family possibly coming to an end, or not?

robm,

I have the same thoughts as you about the eating away at you not knowing all there is to know. Plan A is about you. I have been in Plan A for months now and I have made changes for me. I like me now more than ever. I now know what they mean when they say "you have to first love yourself before you can love someone else." Be the best you you can be. Some advise I receieved was to go out and buy new clothes, maybe hit the gym - try to become THE guy that your W would look twice at. Also, try to spend 15 hours a week alone with your W - grow on each other. My way of thinking in my sitch is if after busting my [email]a@@[/email] on my M and it doesn't work out then I will be a better person for me and another women someday (God forbid).
I have an idea for you - book a play, concert, show or weekend trip - something that you know she has wanted to see or go to. It will show her that you care, are listening to her needs and want to help her feel better about herself. She maybe feel unworthy right now and this may help without over dooing the ILYs.
keep up the good work

Gee, posting here seems addictive, especially when I have no one to turn to. I hope my thread is helpful to some, or maybe just somewhat entertaining!
A couple of coversations with my WW might help clear up where she is.
She had complianed the night before that her eye was bothering her. She has had lasic and was concerned enough to make an appointment. She called me three or four times in the morning, mostly for any little thing. I called her right before she left and asked her to let me know what the doc says. She seemed touched that I was truely concerned. ? Go fiquare.... Of all the things I do and have done, what resonates as compassion.
I ran into her during lunch and we talked for 15 minutes or so. She said she was having a "down" day. Felt sad. She never knows why. She started joking about what a messed up pair we are.
Then she said she didn't think she had screwed things up too bad. Interesting comment.
Last night as we were going to bed she was talking again about being a sad day. That her best freind with whom she works with is concerend for her. Then she said that her freind thinks she needs to get away for awhile. mmmmm. I said nothing and she didn't follow up. I've heard that exact line before. She told me this early on and also recommended by her freind then too. This time seemed to be a weak thought and not really expecting it to go anywhere.
My take is it is a sign she is still in withdrawl and wanting contact.
This morning we laid in bed and cuddled as typical. She talked about her sleep talking and the things she says. She thinks it's true feelings she is expressing, so I talked about how she shared her special pillow with me in one episode.... in other words how she still cares a lot for me....
She called me a few minutes ago asking me what time she needed to leave to pick up a freind she is escorting to and from a doctor. We had discussed her time frames several times, so I asked her what she thought. She said 9:30? I said correct and ran it down again. She said " I've got to get better!" I said your working on it.
Any thoughts on all this? We are talking a lot, getting along better than ever. Everything seems very good except the lack of SF and open (expressed) committment to us.....

We had a great night at the High scholl football game. She was as happy and laughing as I have ever seen her. She was saying that the prozac was kicking in and having a good time with it.
I has to pick my boy up after they returned.(it was an out of town game). She had left her purse in the car so of course I snooped. I found reciepts where she pruchased a washer/dryer and refrigerator to be delievered to the house she rented. The date was last Sunday. Really put me in a funk. Maybe plan B might be closer than I think. However, she has treid to move before and couldn't. We seem to be getting along so well, at least on the surface.
I really want to confront her about this, but what good would that do? Man this is tuff stuff.

Latest on my situation. We are getting along great. It feels like what a good marriage should....except still no SF or ILY's. It has been like this for 4 days now. She has been in very good spirits.
We cuddled this morning. She hugs me anytime I approach her. She was leaving to go shopping and asked me if she was dressed too shabby.(sweats and shorts) then asked me if her legs looked good (she walks and goes to a gym, has even before the A) I gave her compliments, told her how great she looked in her jeans today, her eyes light up, she smiles, and thanks me, says I used to never do that. Happily she goes shopping.
It all seems too good. Is this normal? Others in my situation experience this?


I am the lighthouse....loved that post.

One more interesting thing. As I have stated, she sleeps talks. I never knew this before, I guess my screwed up sleep patterns have me awake in the night a lot. Anyway,
two nights ago she was the most talkative I have ever heard. A couple of interesting conversations. One, she was pressing my arm with her hand saying " this is your soul. My impression is in your soul. It will always be there."
The next was she started showing me her hands, I thought she was doing the church and the steeple, open the door etc. thing. Then she pointed and touched one of her palms and said "this is Robbie" and clasped her hands together. She held her hands together for a minute then relaxed. There was much more talking than this, but I found those two subjects really interesting stuff. She thinks she is talking her true feelings in her sleep and seemed touched by the story.
Anyway, It really is a unique thing to have conversations with someone who is sleeping. Anyone have insight on sleep talking?

Hey Rob, when my FWH finally ended the A SF stopped for a few weeks. It has now resumed and we are doing well. Give her time. Lots of cuddles and lots of patience.

Lot's of patience. I went back and constructed a timeline on her feelings. It helped me see a nice progression.

4-6 weeks ago: major crying bouts and depression
4 weeks ago: starting to feel "stronger", "alive" after decision to stay for two months.
2-4 weeks: good days/sad days. Mentally on "edge". Not receptive to affection (hugs) sometimes.
1.5 weeks: Bought refrigerator and Washer/dryer for her house (no bedroom furniture)
1.3 weeks ago: My Fathers funeral, major crying morning. Start of prozac.
Last 6 days: Feeling happy. More receptive to affection.

What I see was major bouts of crying and depression a month ago. Then milder "sad" days mixed with good days during the last 4 weeks. The day before and of my Fathers funeral was crying days. The last 5 days have all been good.

It just seems that there is a progression going on here. The other thing that jumps out at me is how short this time frame is really. Things that happened just last week seem so long ago when really it isn't.

I need advice.
Checked WW cell record this morning. I see where she contacted a local bed furniture store. A week and a half ago she had a refrigerator/washer/dryer deleivered to her rent house. It seems imminent that she is planning on separation.
Should I approach her about this? I found out by snooping and she won't like that.
Should I contact a lawyer?
Should I insist on a legal separation?
How should I handle this??????????

I know about Plan B. I don't have anyone that I can think of to handle the communication issues. I also have no evidence of contact with the OM. Visitation issues with the boys will be sticky. The oldest will want to stay home. The youngest (16 in the end of Oct) will not want to hurt her and will do what ever. I have noticed that she really has been bonding with the youngest more than usual once she got the reactions from both a month ago when she was going to separate then.

Advice please!!!!!

One more bit of info. She gets paid monthly. She might be waiting until the end of the month before she does anything....just getting everything set up. Also, I will have to take a two week business trip in the 2nd half of October. Once she knows the dates she might wait until then...all of this is guesses.
So, maybe I should just continue plan A and ingnore what she is doing? Setting up for separation and actually doing it are two different things.....??????? Advise please!

I stand by my original advice. I believe your W is p*$$ing in your ear and telling you it's raining, and I don't believe it's good for any man to be subjected to that.

My own experience has reconfigured my map of the world. I would not wallow in something called plan A, particularly when presented with evidence like what you have. I don't think it's a wise approach for men.

No doubt Bob Pure disagrees.

GC

Graycloud,
I do not have any hard evidence that she has continued contact sense D-Day. Because of her depression I am thinking that it was caused by withdrawal. So maybe she has not had any contact, but wants to. If this is the case, how can I tell her to choose?
I checked her rent house and she now has one small bed. Nothing in the other bedrooms for the boys. So maybe she is thinking that she just "needs some time alone"..?? yea, I know what that means.
So, if this is where she is at, you think I should tell her to choose staying and working on the marriage or moving...??

I am thinking that if I tell her that if she decides to spend time at the rent house, that I will want a legal separation. That might burst her bubble a little. Then she would have to deal with a real separation and the kids.

I feel like I want to ask her what her plans are.... does this sound reasonable? That way I get a better idea of the situation and what I am dealing with.

Please, more opinions! Thanks!

I think you should at least be able to ask your wife what she means to do with that rental house, and get ready to deal with the smoke that gets blown up your rear. Ask Orchid for advice regarding such a conversation.

Be assured though. If she moves into that house, the affair is on. I've seen a hundred stories where a WS moves away "to think", or "to be alone", or "to work on herself". Every time, every time, they wind up back in the affair.

I also have been told that nationally, legal separation leads to divorce 95% of the time. I expect that's so.

Your W hasn't committed to you, she hasn't opened her life, and she's ordering curtains for the house. You need information about her plans (which are at best half-baked, you can be sure), but before that conversation happens you need to be ready to respond to what she says. If you give her the usual "I love you and I would do anything to hold this family together and it would really mean a lot to me if you gave up that house", you can be pretty sure that won't get you anywhere.

GC

Rob, I tend to agree with GC some on this. I do think you should continue plan A up until your biz trip. I also think you should directly ask her why she is furnishing her rental place instead of making plans to move home with the understanding that she will lie to you. My suspicion? She has a new phone that you cannot see the records of. Probably provided by OM or a throw away phone. It is very common. When you get back from your trip you should consider plan B IF you have done a good plan A and she still has not budged. Change the post title and call out to get some expert help on plan B.

Thanks for the advice.
I could not stand it anymore so I asked her what her plans were for the rent house. She kept asking why I wanted to know, and why I wanted to know right now. I guess she wanted to know what I knew. I never gave in. I stayed calm. She finally said that the feelings still have not come back for me. Then she said how I let her know that I would not want to be in a sexless marriage and how she never wanted sex again.
I talked a lot. I had printed out a bunch of info on this sight about affairs, withdrawal, and such.
I talked about her affair and what I thought it had done to us. She continued to deny it was an affair, etc etc. But I continued. I insisted it was, it was a EA but when they kissed it was a PA. She still claimed she did not want that type of relationship with him etc etc. She didn't even want to hear about the affair stuff with the OM, but I would not let up. She finally started saying that she just didn't see it that way. I told her some of the stuff said in her emails.She claimed she didnlt remember a lot of it. I told her she said she loved him. She acted like she couldn't believe she said that.
I let her know that NC was the only way we could begin to repair our marriage etc. I told her how much studying I had done and I had print outs. She wanted to read them so I let her. Nothing about plan a or b. I told her how her depression was caused by withdrawals and how I have never heard a reason I could understand of why she wanted to separate. I also told her that if she does it should be a legal separation. I also told her that the statistics are 95% end in divorce.
I finished with telling her that she knew what I wanted so I would not repeat it. That I was working on myself and that is all I can do, that the attention, affection, etc, was me working on myself. I said I was going to take care of my health and the boys. The printouts were clear about no contact forever (she kept asking "not even friends?") and all about the addiction, the reasons for separation are to continue the affair etc etc.
I told her I could not control her or anything, but that I thought this is information she should know and she could do with ot what she wished. I ended with giving her a kiss on the forehead, an ILY and left the room. She went to bed. I did some yard work, house work, talked with the boys. Actually, I am feeling a load lifted.
I now plan on being nice etc. See how she reacts. I feel I have done a great plan A, although for only 2 months or so. There was a lot said, I stayed calm, and I feel good about finally laying out my thoughts. Thanks to MB board for helping me understand.

I would stay in Plan A. But you might want to spend the money to talk to the Harley's. Even one call can help.

You are in a very unusual situation in that from what you post, the two of you are sharing intimacy. The chats in bed are one of the purist forms of intimacy. That doesn't usually happen when one person is having an affair.

I'm no expert, but I think I would let your wife relax about the sex. Her counseling may be bringing up old issues. Make her feel safe.

You are doing a GREAT Plan A, which is important in case you need to go to Plan B. Hang in there.

Thanks Believer,
I will stay in plan A. She is really convincing that she isn't in contact. She has stated that she is thankful that I did find out before it progressed any further. Who knows?

But I do feel good that the boundries are set. If she plans on staying, she must commit to NC and our marriage....ie counceling or something, getting rid of the rent house. If she leaves, she knows that the outcome could be the end of our marriage and family. I am sure that I will wait for her if she does leave, not forever of course. I haven't formulated a plan B yet.
I am sure her IC is covering her abuse and the effects it is having. I am happy she is getting help about that. She did go to an IC when we first met and covered all this once before.
Regarding the sex, it was a response to a question from her. She keeps saying how she never wants sez again and then she asks me if I could stay in a marriage without it. I had to be honest as it is in my top two ENs. The first time she asked I said I thought I could, the second time I said I need to be honest and don't think I would be happy. I think she is now using that as another excuse.
I dont pressure her about it. I told her I think it took along time for our marriage to fall apart and it will take a long time to rebuild it. Even the print outs from this site said a woman will take about 6 months. And that is one without the sexual abuse. Who knows how that affects one.
I keep thinking about a session. I might just do that.
She is a beautiful sweet woman and I do love the heck out of her. Really would love to have a great marraige with her.

Went to bed last night. WW was asleep. This morning after the alarm went off, she hit the snooze and we cuddled. She laid her head on my chest and held my hand. This went on for three snoozes, which is typical. I got up when she did, went downstairs to fix my coffee and make her breakfast. Don't mind doing this as I wait for my coffee to brew. It is typically just some nuts, grapes, cheese, and chicken slices. Simply put on a plate.
Not much conversation after we were up. Most was about the kids, like where the next HS football game was located, etc.

So, I expect one of two things now. One would be she will realize that the symptons of her A is causing the demise of the marriage and family she will make an effort to do something about it.
Two, and the one I am most expecting, she will find ways to counter everything and justify going down the path she is on. I expect she might wait for her next IC session and manipulate the info to support her drive to separate. Again, the A has nothing to do with what is going on, it was just a wake up call....I can hear it now!
At least her cake eating and or fence sitting will be coming to an end soon.