I remember an old movie called "Convoy" with Kris Kristopherson (sp)
His C.B. handle was "rubber duck".

He said his daddy always told him to be like a duck.
"Move slowly on the surface and paddle like he!! underneath"

Reminds me of myself as a BS.

Trying to look "cool" on the outside but going "crazy" on the inside.

Yeah I'm bored, does it show?

I assume you mean you are at work and you're bored, correct? If you're not at work and you are home just plain bored then I suggest you follow the advice you've gotten time and time again. Find something to do. Whether it's family related or JS-only related. Keep yourself busy.



I understand the 'crazy' part of this JS. I really do. But the harsh reality of your situation is that you are going to have to prepare for the worst. You can't just sit around waiting and hoping for your W to come back to you. It is very likely it won't happen (statistics of Ms succeeding (BS with WS and WS with OP) after infidelity are considerably low).

Keeping yourself busy is important. Doing something that is healthy for you mentally is very important. Not only do you want to appear to your W that you would be willing to move on without her you have to feel that way a little yourself. You have to know that you are going to be OK if she does decide to D you. You do that by keeping busy, getting involved in something other than your W and the depressing separation.

I know you said you don't have much for hobbies. OK fine. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to find one now does it? Experiment with some things that strike your interest even if it is a minute curiousity. You've got some freedoms now. Take advantage and get out there and look around. Dabble a little. If you need a list look at the Recreational Companionship list offered on this site. Maybe something on there will peak your interest.

Your W is cake eating. She's getting comfortable in her situation because you are in pretty constant contact and you are being very civil to her. It's OK to be civil just try to do it at a minimum. Don't give her the impression you are sitting around waiting for her. Let her know that your life and your life with the kids are moving on. She's welcome to join should she decide to be a part of that kind of family. JMHO JS. Good luck.

Correct-a-mundo


I feel like I'm doing this pretty good but I've got to stop calling her.

Last night she took the two younger ones to her sisters house for a birhtday party for her niece.
I told her earlier that I could bring S12 over. She said she was going to be home about 7:30-8:00.

S12 called her house at about 9:00 and she sais she just got home.
S12 asked "can you take me to moms dad?
I said yes and he hung up.
I had told her earlier to that she didn't have to wait around untill I got home from work, that she could just go to the party and I would see the kids when I brought S12 over.
Well at 9:00 it was past kids bedtime so I called her back (after S12 hung up) and said "are the little ones still up?"
She said yeah, I'm going throught there backpacks and I'll keep them up untill you get here.

Got there and kids came out to say goodbye. WW came outside and we made some small talk about kids and I said :look like you've been drinking".
"Yeah I had a few at sisters house."
Any problem driving home?

No I'm not drunk!

After I got home I called her back and said "you know if you ever find yourself in a situation where you don't feel safe driving you can always call me."
WW "Oh come on!!! I'm was fine driving".
JS Oh no, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have driven, I can tell your fine. I just wanted you to know that I would help if you ever needed me to because I know you will not drive when you've been drinking, Thats all.
WW "ok thanks"
JS Bye

I thought afterwords that I need to stop calling her with this stuff.
I got to nail down this distance thing and stop trying to plan A her untill she shows a little recommitment to me.

Another small setback but I'm getting it....slowly, I'm getting it.

JS

Correct-a-mundo.

I think another thing you should do to help your cause is stop being so accomodating with the kids. I think it may be important that you set up schedules regarding when they sleep there and when they sleep at home. Try to get a routine for yourself so you can start doing other things. If you're always there to be accomodating she's taking advantage. If you let her know you're going to be busy once in awhile she's going to realize she's losing her helpful hand. Stop the cake eating. Make her pay the price for moving out.

If anyone needs to modify the schedule then they need to ask. And what I would recommend is you doing your best to not modify the schedule. You should try to avoid needing to call her to ask her to switch nights, etc. Make her be the only one who needs to call to modify it.

That way you can eliminate more of the calls you make to her.

Again JS I post this not knowing if this the correct thing to do. I'm unsure if you're supposed to be going dark or doing a serious Plan A or both.

What I do know is that you will look the most attractive if you are pleasant, accomodating and NOT NEEDY or CLINGY.

I agree with myalias

Another point. If I were you I would have had that conversation about drinking and driving by email. Good documentation for any custody dispute and who knows what she would have typed in response. WS's are too fogged out to look at the big picture and will often incriminate themselves despite the legal ramnifications.

Whereas, anything verbal will be denied in court.

Mr. Wondering

I've asked her more than once about a schedule and she says "yeah I know"
She had them last night and again tonight and I originaly told her that I would have them Friday, Saturday and Sunday but now I'm thinking I may want Friday night off.
I was going to take them to a football game but I might just go with my brother.
I will see her on Saturday anyway because D7 has an eye doctor appointment. I will have s5 and s12 while she goes to that.
Then S12 has a football game so I will see her there.
Then Sunday D7 has a birthday party at the bowling alley for 2 hours.
Can't seem to get away from her.
Oh well, maybe that will kepp her away from OM for a while.

How do we split the days?
I'm thinking 3 on and 3 off but then one of us has them through the weekend.
Any ideas.
I was going to e-mail her and ask her to keep them Friday night and that I would take them Saturday night.
She wants to go out with her niece Saturday night.
I'm going to see her tonight to go to S5 and S12 open house's at school so I will tell her then.
Should I tell her to start a schedule now? (tonight)

I like the idea of not having to talk to her. I understand that if I stop calling her that she may call me more.
Seems I just keep finding things to discuss........Usually the kids.

Help if you can.
JS

JS,

I don't have much in the way of help but I do have an opinion.

I have several family members who have been through D with children. It always saddens me to think of how these poor kids are carted around from one home to the next... from one day to the next. Here Monday, Wednesday every other Friday, Saturday, Sunday. There Tues, Thurs and every other Fri, Sat. Sunday.

That's got to suck.

I like one week here. One week there. Unless the kids hate that schedule.

Long post with nothing much to say...

Hi Myalias<--------->JS waving from way over here in GQII.

Last night met ww at S12's football practice when she dropped him off. I walked over to her van and she said are you ready to go?
I said Yep, lets go.
Then I walked over to my car and got in and followed her to S5's School open house.
She sat in the van for a minute...untill she saw me get IN my car then backed out. I don't know if she expected me to ride with her or what. I didn't ask or even act like I was going to ride with her.

Walked around S5's school then followed her to S12's school and went to his open house.
We got there way early.....she said "I thought it started at 6:15."
I said "no 6:30.
We waited for a while then we walked around and saw all of his teachers and talked a little bit (not to each other).

Saw a bunch of other moms and dads we knew.....she didn't hardly talk to anyone.
I of course, talked to all of them.
We were just heading out when my cell phone rang. (hardly ever get calls on it)
It was my next door neighbor wondering if I was ok because I'm always at S12's football practice and she hadn't seen me there yet.
I told her I was just leaving school and told her the situation etc.etc.
WW doesn't know who I was talking to so when we got outside I asked her if she wanted the kids on Friday night too. WW "yeah I'll take them". JS "ok then I want them Saturday night, Sunday night and Monday night".
JS "you want to start the three day on three day off?"
WW "how about three day, two day?"
JS "if you want me to keep them for three days and you for two days thats great by me."
WW "no I want them 3 days and you have them two days."
I said how about 5 with me and then 5 with you?"
WW "no, I couldn't go 5 days not seeing them".
JS "me either".
JS "ok then lets do 3 and 3.
I told the kids goodnight and asked ww "is S12 staying with you tonight?"
WW "yeah he said he would, do you want me to go get him or do you want to"?
JS "cant, gotta go, besides his practice will be over by the time you get there.
WW "what if S12 want to stay with you tommorrow night? Will you be at home?"
JS "If he wants to stay at my house then he can.....he will be with the neighbor anyway and she already said he could stay there with her son so I don't have to be there if he wants to stay anyway".

Went for a drive in a direction away from my house. ok,ok, I didn't have any place special to go but I didn't feel like going home yet either.
When I left the school she was still getting the kids in the van and then 10 seconds later I seen her dodging traffic trying to keep up with me.
I went stright where she had to turn.
Anyway, later I went home and walked down to the neighbors house and talked to him for a while then my cell phone rang and it was S5 calling.

When I got home S5 had left a message on my home phone.
In the background I could here ww talking.
S5 "mom, whats daddy's cell phone number...he's not home.
WW, sounding frustrated "wait a minute please" (she was in the bathroom)
S5 "no mom right now I need it".
WW sounding mad now "get out of here please"
S5 "mom, I need it right now!
WW "IN A MINUTE"
S5 NOW!!!
WW GET IT FROM S12!!!

Stressed much??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> LOL

Not Me!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


JS

OH!!
I forgot to mention, I was very nice to WW last night.
After reading my post I thought you all might think I was acting smug or something.
At S5's open house I got her and the kids all a hotdog and fixed hers for her and found her a place to sit down while I helped the kids with there stuff.

I opened doors for her and took the kids to the bathroom when they needed to go.
Got her, her favorite kind of cookie from one of S12's classrooms. etc.

So I wasn't mean...I just treated her like I would have treated any other friend or "hot mom".

JS

I dont think I can do this anymore....
I messed up big time tonight.
Went to a football game with my brother and sister...had fun.
Got a call from neighbor that ww didn't pick S12 up at the movies like she said she would so neighbor picked the boys up.
WW's phone wasn't working so I went by her house on my way home.
She was just getting home with the kids at 11:00 and Franks followed her home to.
I pulled up out front and she came out and said I just got your message...etc.etc. Talked to the kids...s5 and d7...thay went to franks house and had fun.
Anyway on my way out I looked ast Frank standing in the yard and said "loser"
ww got mad and started yelling and telling me to get out of there.
I said "were still married you know"
WW " WE ARE DIVORCED!!!"
Frank said if your kids wern't here I'd......
I said "oh you care about the kids....LOL
WW get out of here now...

I left, she called and said that was wrong saying that under your breath in front of the kids...

I said "they didn't here me"
Over all of her yelling I told her they needed to know the truth anyway.
She said "were divorced...all that is is a piece of paper...
I said "your a lier and a cheater and thats the truth.
I said you lied to me and now your cheating in front of your kids...I would never do that to them...I told you it was wrong to begin with but I can't stop you....What kind of message are you sending your kids??? That its ok to lie and cheat and then walk away from your marriage...good lesson for kids.
She said we have been divorced for a year and my whole family knows it...why can't you except it?

went on like this for a bit and then she hung up.

I never raised my voice but I did get some things off of my chest.

I wanted to call her back and say "Frank threatening me is good for the kids to see??"


I guess I'm done huh?...The big love buster to end all?

How do I recover from all of this?

JS

D7 called this morning and said "daddy why were you yelling at Frank last night?"
I said "I wasn't yelling honey but i did get a little angry and I was wrong to do that....I dont like yelling at people but sometimes I forget how to be nice.....Do you undersand?"
D7 "you need to like everyone no matter what".
JS "I know honey, I do like evryone and I won't yell anymore, ok?".
D7 "ok heres S5.
Talked to S5 for a while and S5 said he was playing a video game with Frank.
Looks like he spent the night. Oh well.
S5 then said heres mommy.
WW "Hi whats up?"
JS "D7 said that we shouldn't yell and I told her she was right and that I wouldn't be doing that anymore".
WW "yeah I told her I was sorry and that that will never happen again".
Then we just talked nicely about D7's birthday party tomorrow and what we needed to do.

Last night she was po'd yelling about our marriage license just being a piece of paper and that it didn't mean anything to her.

Where do I go from here?

Start over in plan A?

I could really use some thoughts if your still willing to help me.

Thanks all in advance, for your support.

JS

JS,

(*sighs*)

You know I'm extremely sorry things are going the way they are. I suppose right now things look pretty bleak.

Yeah, having little tyrants like calling Frank a "loser" aren't going to help. Still that doesn't mean this is over. Remember she's in a fog. She thinks everything is just rosey with this "loser" because she can't see the trees for the forest. Once they begin a life together and start having to deal with "real" R issues things will fall apart.

That's why you need to be on your best behavior.

Paul, I just get the impression you haven't laid all your feelings out there for your W. I think you feel cheated and lied to. I think you feel she short-sided you the opportunity to change your M around. She moved out on false pretenses (claiming she needed some independence).

I, myself, think she's been involved with this creep for months and months now. She's never admitted the truth. She got her own place so she didn't have to HIDE the affair anymore.

Still given all that I don't know what the best advice is for you.

I can see you going a couple of different ways. I could see you saying to her some of the things I've just stated. And then asking her to keep her options and the option of regaining her M open. Or I could see you still continuing to just wait it out, trying to Plan A, hoping the A falls apart. Or I could see you deciding it just isn't worth it. That she isn't trustworthy. That, even if the A falls apart and you get back together, that SHE wouldn't be able to make enough changes so that you could trust her again (that's an assumption of course).

Here's my inexperienced advise (please be careful before you implement anything I recommend. Get other's opinions).

I guess I would recommend you continue your plan only go a little darker. Push to separate yourself from her. Have planned drop-offs so you don't have to speak with her. Make yourself scarce for her. You may even want to let her know you'd rather not have too much interaction with her right now because it hurts too much. Then make it appear you are moving on and can, and almost want to, live without her.

When you do interact you should show her these changes. Do some things that make her do a double-take. Be happy. Plan and carry out fun things as a family and as an individual and then talk about them with her. Dress sharp. Be organized. Get involved in a group organization (church, hobby, volunteering, etc.). Fix up your home. Any chance for promotions at work?

When you feel the need to get into "Frank" discussions don't call him names like "loser". If you find out he has a checkered past let her know you think he is a person of poor character but don't use baited words like "loser". Talk to her regarding him as a poor example of a parent for your children. Heh, you may even want to state you think he's beneath her. That she deserves better.

You've got to reverse the damage that you created this weekend. Right now I suspect your W thinks you're angry, needy, desperate, clinging, etc.

I'll end with my disclaimer in that I'm not experienced at this so my advise could be way off base. Please get other input.

Good advice Myalias....I think.
I've been told this before and I'm trying to follow it. I don't think I've been coming off as to needy but then again I'm not a ww.
D8 had her birthday party at the bowling alley Sunday and I helped ww unload her van. (presents cake etc.)

Remember the e-mail I got from ww's grandma?
Saying..."YOUR MARRIAGE IS OVER"
Talk about goofy.....she got D8 a toaster. LOL
WW said DON'T take that present out. Grandma got D8 a toaster.....What was she thinking?
I said "you know your grandma"
WW just laughed

Yeah, I'm being accomadating again. I guess.
I asked ww if she wanted a drink and she said she was going to get a diet drink.
I went ahead and bought her one.
Most of the party I played with the kids and took pictures, cut the cake etc.
Didn't really talk much with ww.

I did say to her when she came in that I was sorry for saying what I said "loser" to her friend.
I just said "I wouldn't want you to talk any of my friends that way and I shouldn't have talked to her friend that way either.

She just said "ok".

??????

I was thinking maybe I got my point across as to how I felt about him (as if she didn't know) and then saying I was sorry to show her that I understood my mistake.

Party went good, kids had fun.
ww took about 3 pieces of cake and gave me the rest to take home.
This morning she came over to get the kids ready for school and I gave her a note on the kids picture days coming up and what days they had off.
She said S12 has football pictures tonight...I said I got the paper work all filled out and a check inclosed already so he's set to go.
I also told her I had some leftover Lasagna in the fridge if she wanted to take it to work for her lunch.
She said "yeah...I'd love some".


Am I still being to accomodating(sp) or plan A'ing?

I just reread my thread and I'm starting to feel confused a little.
I don't try to interact with her unless were together..I don't call her or anything..mostly kids stuff during pickup and dropoff.


What now?

I'm not ready to give up because if ww becomes the person I remember, I want her back in my life.
If this is in fact who she is I'm not sure I want her back.
Thoughts on that?

Talked to one of ww's coworkers Saturday at s12's football game.
He says that company is going to close real soon.
There 98% sure of that.
Asked ww Saturday if she had resumes sent out yet?
WW "no"

She cant afford her rent (without help)
She is selling her van to my neighbor.
Coworker is taking her to the auto auction to find something to drive after she sells the van.

Any thoughts from anybody, Please.


JS

You are way too accomodating.

Look at the cake-eating "lasagna" she's sucking up.

You are way too involved in her life. She's got Frank to fool around with and you to look over all the other aspects of her life.

Let her deal with her job issue, car issue. Let her take half the responsibility of raising the kids. Which means at times you need to send the forms for pictures to her house to let her fill them out and pay for them.

You are a WS's dream. You live close by and you two interact daily. Heck you interact almost hourly except when she's with OM.

The only way this would be having a positive effect would be if she were asking OM to do them and he was showing some character flaws by saying "That's not my job.".

You need to send the message that you are a good catch but you shouldn't be making her life so much easier for her. Sure she appreciates it but she also takes advantage of it. Be careful not to be a doormat.

One thing that bothers me is that you are an open book to her. There's no mystery when it comes to being JS. She knows who you are and what you are doing. You aren't catching her off-guard in terms of you not looking clingy.

I don't want you to be mean to her but I want you to start making things a little more difficult for her. Make her start stretching her need to be independant. And make this other piece of crap she's seeing start doing some of the things you are doing for her. She wants to have a boy-toy at home and have to take care of the tough stuff. Make him start doing some of the hard grunt work and see what unfolds between him and her. Maybe he'll come through and maybe he won't.

A toaster? What the ????

Mya,
Man....look at the red marks on my face from these 2x4's LOL


I never did any of this before because she always took care of it.
I thought it was a way to show her I'm more than capable of doing these things without asking her how.
Make scense? Guess not. LOL


I agree that this whole weekend we have seen each other.
Friday night exchange....aka "loser comment"
Saturday football game.
Sunday D8's birthday party.
Other than that I don't call her or even answer her phone calls anymore...I let the kids do that.


It's hard to seperate the two (the good catch). I don't feel like a doormat.
I haven't talked to her about the van for a while now.
My neighbor (who is buying the van) brought it up and the three of us were talking about it at the bowling alley.
I'm not trying to make excuses or anything just trying to paint a better picture for everyone.
Sometimes when I post I get lazy and don't give all of the information needed.

What can I do? I went out Friday night and she doesn't know where I went but she knows I was out.
I just don't know what to do Mya.
I don't tell her anything about what I'm doing. She wouldn't care anyhow...I think.


Like what?
I don't really think she has had him do anything...Maybe she don't want to commit to him to much.
I'm not doing anything for her. I gave up on giving my opinions on the van, her rent,etc.

On the plus side I have noticed a little of a differance in her attitude around the kids.
She finally cut S5's hair and didn't just use the clippers as in the past. She took her time and did a great job and then, in the past she would always do D8's hair up real nice (fancy) but for the last 2 or 3 months she hasn't done anything but a pony tail in it.
D8 came over the other day and ww had her hair done up in a style thats very hard to do.
It showed that she had spent some real time fixing it this way.

I am glad that she is doing better with the kids.....What changed?

I'm going to kids functions that normally she would do.
I'm taking a role in the kids lives and feel very good about it.

What now?

Thank you so much for the advice Myalias...You've been a wonderfull friend to me and I will try to do things right from now on.


JS

JS,

I'm kind of short on time right now but I do want to answer your questions.

Keep checking. It may be tomorrow before I can get back.

Hopefully others will chime in. I lack confidence in the advice I'm providing. This section of the forum gets so much activity I'm quite surprised you aren't getting more responses. That leaves me to believe that I'm doing OK with what I'm saying. Still it would be nice to get confirmation.

Anyone?

Any thoughts from anyone?

JS

Sure

OK..here's my short list for ya.

You are in plan A correct? So making deposits is a good thing.

However...

Enabling bad behaviors is not.

Where in your judgement do you think the lines are and where do you feel you are in regard to them?

I have some ideas but I'd like your opinion.

Right now...the problem is..that I see no carrot and no stick in your plan A.

What I see is that you are supporting the behaviors that are destructive to your marriage but not really having much opportunity to engage her or entice her to return to the marriage.

So that's suggestion number 1. Time to evaluate plan A and make it specific. Plan A is not Being Nice. Plan A is Being Strategic.


Suggestion number 2 is to set a timeline.

Approximately how long have you been in plan A...REAL plan A? How long since you became educated about plan A/ LBs/ DJs/ assorted affair muckery? From the beginning of your vested plan A...how much time would you say has passed..and how much time do you think is reasonable?

Beware entrenchment! Plan A needs to become plan B sooner rather than later even though it is scary.

I would say not more than 6 months at the absolute most from the beginning of your plan A. What do you think?

Thank you for coming back to me noodle.

It's very hard to make deposits when she doesn't want me to.

How do I stop this. Her whole family has been divorced or has cheated.
She doesn't feel like she is cheating because she left our M because she is "just done" and has a friend now and thats all.(her words)

I think she is going to do whatever she wants no matter what I think.
The kids will be fine blah, blah, blah.

She won't talk to me about any of this. It's not an affair, he's just a friend.etc.etc.etc.
I told her were still married...She said "Thats just a piece of paper, It don't mean anything to me. My family already knows this and accepts this." "It's over"

Suggestions please?
Thats why I keep posting because I don't feel as though anything I do is helping here.



I will wait for her if I could see some signs of anything changing.
I've plan A'd for about a month or less.
Not great but still trying.
I've read so many threads on here and thats why I was going in differant directions all of the time.
I just have not seen a situaition here that mirrors mine.
Most ww's talk (a little).
I've removed myself from helping her in anyway (I think) but that has not done anything.

I need to stay in plan A (I think) for a while longer.
I'm not really worried about going to plan B. WW still has to come to my house when I have the kids to get them to daycare.
I just don't see anything else I can do.
Exsposure didn't do squat.

I'm just trying to move on and not involve myself in her problems.
She cant afford her rent, soon her work is going to be closing, she is selling her van (payment past due)(she just found a buyer).
No idea whether any of that helps or hurts me.

Help me focus!!!

JS

JS,



This isn't about the affair and this isn't about what SHE'S saying. This is about what you are doing.

Actually I think you are offering a carrot. Too many carrots to be exact. You need a stick. Something that creates conflict for her.

I'm not going to be able to provide decent advice on this because I'm too vindictive so it's hard for me to gauge what is a worthy stick. I'd be too prone to say cut off any contact with her. I doubt that's going to be helpful. Still I think you are too available to her. Somewhere in there lies a stick. Just my guess.