SR:

This is really scary:



That's a tall order!

But I will try the best I can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I went back to the first page and pulled this out:




SR and MU have 15 years of living with this secret. And now it was exposed. And it is in regards to something that happened prior to the M.

But it has ran thru the M. Creating a Wall between the partners that each knew was there, but could not acknowledge. It wasn't a 800lb gorilla in the corner that we know about and refuse to talk about. It's an invisible one. A wall we can not see, touch, or feel. But each spouse knows of it in the other spouse. But did not know were it started, ended, or how high it was.

And this creates distance. These are the other blocks that get attached to the wall, increasing it length, width and most importantly, Height.

Now, SR and MU know the outlines of the wall. And what is written on it, and what it takes to dismantle. And what have you accomplished so far?

Is that a loaded question or what?

The recovery plan is used to sort out the information on the wall, put it into the proper context for both parties and allows the M to proceed with a new sense of intimacy.

The plan can be written out or you to can discuss the plan and what you expect. But it must be constructed. MU? That's your job. SR? your job is to support him in making it happen. If you have a "Better Idea" about how it is supposed to happen, then it doesn't minimize MU's ideas. It's that respect thing, Got it?


Now, A little disecting of that post:

"she never would have married me in the first place" and "feels trapped in this marriage"

SR: This is UNTRUE. Do not say it again. Because YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS. YOU can say it now, BUT you do not KNOW! My wife uses the same types of things against me now. And that hurts. Because there is NO reasonable response. And you are never trapped. M is a choice. You or MU can end it at any time.

Also SR: Some of these issues may have been addressed already in your M. Hard for me to remember what is in the MIDDLE of this thread. I still have 2x4's for MU. Just not at this moment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I had a broken family of origin as well. I went to the edge of the cliff and almost destroyed my family. But we walked away from that cliff. My Wife lead the way away from the edge, but I have the job of continuing that journey.

Well, I have to go now, lunch with W today, should be good, it's at my desk.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LG

Well, it appears I have more time than I thought I did. You just got home from grocery shopping with the boys but left again, so here I am.



I have to agree with the three of you on this. I feel you do show a lack of respect for me. Perhaps I don't deserve it. Perhaps I have given you no reason to respect me. I'd like to think otherwise though. My A's are years behind me. I want to spend the rest of my life in a happy marriage with you. We need to collectively put the past behind us and look forward. I realize I need to rebuild your trust in me. I know this and am wracking my brain trying to think of ways to accomplish this. The ATA book may help. There are a few suggestions listed there that may apply:

1. "Provide me with an accurate itinerary when you travel." I think I already do this, as well as provide phone numbers of the hotel where I'm staying, etc. I will keep doing this if you feel it will help.

2. "Limit your overnight travel." I already do this now. Whenever an "opportunity" to travel comes up, I think of any way possible to avoid it so I can spend more time with you and the boys.

3. "Tell me when you run into your lover." Since I have had NC for many years, I don't think this will EVER happen, but okay.

4. "Tell me if your lover contacts you." See #3.

5. "Tell me if you're planning to contact your lover." Ditto.

6. "Show me what pleases you {SF}." You already know, but I'll be happy to show you again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

7. "Tell me when you feel proud of me, and why." I don't do this enough. In the past though, when I did, you dismissed it. I think you're getting better with this. Incidentally, I saw the letter you received yesterday and I was going to congratulate you, but I know how you feel about that whole thing, so I felt it would have been detrimental to do so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

8. "Call me during the day." Would you like this? If so, I will. I know how you feel about the phone though. Let me know.

9. "Tell me how you feel - share your most intimate thoughts with me." This may be the hardest one so far, but I will try. I know you need this. I think I would do this more often if I wasn't afraid of the DJ's.

10. "Tell me when you like the way I look." I do this all the time. Again, you're getting better at not dismissing it when I do. Thank you for making this effort.

11. "Tell me when you feel happy or more optimistic about our future together." If I did this any more than I already do, you're think my record was skipping and you'd want to throw a rock at my head to get it to stop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

12. "Come home from work in time to have dinner with the family." Despite my workload, I think I'm doing a much better job of this than I have in many years. Perhaps even as high as 99% of the time, I am home when you expect me. If I'm mistaken on this, and you have a different perception, please let me know.

13. "Plan time to be alone with me." I did this recently for your birthday and I think you enjoyed it, for the most part. I certainly did. I'd like to do more of this; perhaps not on such a grand scale (maybe we can do something like that more than once a year though), but I'm welcome to suggestions on things you might like to do. I'll handle the planning part.

14. "Spend more time in foreplay - kissing and touching." When we actually do get to do this (rare but welcome), I think I do this fairly well. Again, if you have a different perception, let me know.

15. "Tell me what upset you during the day." I think I already do this. Not so sure you really want to know though. When I ask you what went wrong during the day, you occasionally tell me you don't want to talk about it. I want to be here for you, even if there's nothing in the world I can do to fix what happened. I at least want you to know I care and am here for you to vent. I think we both need this.

16. "Focus on what I'm saying, and don't be distracted when we talk." I think I'm pretty good at this. I believe I'm a good listener. You are, too. So, let's chat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

17. "Tell me when you feel I've let you down." See above, at the beginning of this post. When things like this happen, perhaps I'm not so good at letting you know about it. Perhaps I stew and let it simmer and explode like it did this morning. I'm sorry. I'll try to be better at this, but I sure do hate confrontation. I just wish we could always be happy together. This is a very immature way of dealing with life though, isn't it? In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

18. "Work on letting your anger go and getting back on track with me." I tried to do that this week. It's rare that I get so angry with you, but when I do, it's a doozy. I wanted to "get back on track with you" this weekend, but at this point, you're so angry with me, I'm not sure if you'll let me back in. Knock, knock?

19. "Take a massage class with me." Now, Janis Abrahms Spring has had some pretty good ideas in her book, but I think this one may take the cake! Want to? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

20. "Show me affection outside the bedroom." How am I doing with this?

21. "Buy new furniture for the bedroom (where you brought your lover)". Fortunately, this isn't an issue. Although we could use some new dressers or closet organizers... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

22. "Talk to me directly about your feelings. Don't clam up and withdraw or attack me. Don't use humor or sarcasm to make your point." I often use humor, but not so much to drive home a point. I have been known to use it to help diffuse a situation though. And yes, I have also used sarcasm on occasion to make a point. I think we both have. It's seems difficult to avoid this in the heat of the moment. I will try to talk more directly with you about my feelings. Can I ask you to keep an open mind, though, and not come to the quick judgement that I'm attacking you?

23. "Ask me how I feel; don't interpret my behavior or assume you know how I feel." I do this. Getting a response from you while you're still processing is a challenge and we've already discussed this. I recognize that you need your space when something's troubling you and you'll let me know what it is when you can. However, the not assuming I know how you feel part is more difficult. I often jump to the wrong conclusions there, simply because I'm not a very good mind-reader yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

24. "Hold me and show understanding when I'm upset; don't give up on me." If I thought this was what you really wanted, I'd certainly do it. In a heartbeat.

25. "Make weekend plans for us." See #13.

26. "Work on being understanding of my need to take on independent projects; don't assume I'm just trying to escape you." I don't think this is an issue, but if it is, please let me know.

27. "Tell me when you feel insecure about us, rather than assume I'm deceiving you." The only times I feel insecure about us are the times when you withdraw. Most of the other times, I am happy and very optimistic about our future. I don't believe you are deceiving me, just not communicating.

28. "Read and discuss a self-help book with me about making our relationship better." Ummm... I think that's where I got these bullet points from! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> However, I'm still wading through it and will continue to do so because I feel it's actually starting to help. And you asked me to, and I love you. Is it okay, though, if I read something a little less heavy for my next book?

{My sincere apologies go out to Dr. Abrahms Spring ("After the Affair") for reproducing her good work here without permission. I can only hope that if she reads it, she will consider it a compliment and beneficial to others who may be reading it here as well.}

So, Saturn, please let me know which of the above items I need to work on. Let's put them on a list and keep track of when they occur and what we do about them. I need you to trust me again.

I love you.

MU

Thank you for providing so many options and things for me to think about.



I will work hard on this. As we discussed this afternoon, I admit that sometimes I don't back you up when you discipline our oldest son. I recognize that my lack of support frustrates you. I will try very hard to provide a "unified front" to our children.

Aside from the parenting issue, can you tell me other ways I can improve in my demonstration of respect for you?

Addressing the other points:
7. "Tell me when you feel proud of me, and why." I don't do this enough. In the past though, when I did, you dismissed it.
[color:"blue"] I dismissed it because I suspected that you were insincere. I'll try harder to accept your praise. [/color]

8. "Call me during the day." Would you like this? If so, I will. I know how you feel about the phone though. Let me know.
[color:"blue"] I hate the phone, but I love email <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

9. "Tell me how you feel - share your most intimate thoughts with me." This may be the hardest one so far, but I will try. I know you need this. I think I would do this more often if I wasn't afraid of the DJ's.
[color:"blue"] I will try too. Please let me know when I am disrespectful. With your specific feedback I can improve more quickly. [/color]

16. "Focus on what I'm saying, and don't be distracted when we talk." I think I'm pretty good at this.
[color:"blue"] Actually, I'd like more of your attention when we talk. I often feel that you are not paying attention (opening mail, reading the paper, watching TV). Eye contact helps me feel like you are really listening. [/color]

17. "Tell me when you feel I've let you down." See above, at the beginning of this post. When things like this happen, perhaps I'm not so good at letting you know about it. Perhaps I stew and let it simmer and explode like it did this morning. I'm sorry. I'll try to be better at this, but I sure do hate confrontation.

[color:"blue"] This is key to our recovery. If you can't be honest with me, we have no chance. [/color]

22. "Talk to me directly about your feelings. Don't clam up and withdraw or attack me. Don't use humor or sarcasm to make your point." I often use humor, but not so much to drive home a point. I have been known to use it to help diffuse a situation though. And yes, I have also used sarcasm on occasion to make a point. I think we both have. It's seems difficult to avoid this in the heat of the moment. I will try to talk more directly with you about my feelings. Can I ask you to keep an open mind, though, and not come to the quick judgement that I'm attacking you?
[color:"blue"] Yes, I will work hard on this. Please keep me updated with feedback on how I'm doing.[/color]

I'm sorry LG. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it really is true. I broke up with a serious boyfriend, a man I intended to marry, because he cheated on me. I told Messdup when we were dating that I'd do the same thing to him if he was unfaithful. Here on MB- when a person comes here for help because their boyfriend or fiancee cheats- they are usually encouraged to break the relationship. I think this is wise advice. We save marriages here- but we also prevent bad marriages from starting. It is important to pay attention to red flags while dating. It is unwise to marry someone who has cheated, I know that and I definitely would not have married him if I knew he had sex with my friend while we were engaged.

This is one of the major problems that I am having in my recovery. I beat myself up for not recognizing the signs back then. I need to stop this and focus on the fact that I am married and I must work to improve our future, not play the woulda shoulda coulda game.

SR:

Your not being disrespectful, But it still isn't true. Everything you say is justifications. At THIS point.

That takes me back to the wall analogy.

MU knew of the ramifications if he told you what happened. And his failure to do so, is his cross to bear.

Does that toss away the rest of the marriage? I do not think so. See the difference?

Because, NOW YOU have to enforce a boundary that you are unwilling to enforce. And "not hurting the kids" is a justification.

See the contradiction?



SO true.

I coulda M'ed someone else (MU hears: "I am not the right guy and worthless")

I shoulda known you were capable of this (MU hears: I can't ever make good decisions, was it a right decision to get M'ed)

I woulda been so much better off (MU hears: So woulda I)

And theres another brick in the Wall.....

With a nod to Pink Floyd....

And I am not beating you up here SR. Since I have the same issue with my BS, I might be throwing stuff out to you that I can see if it helps with my BS. And MU can't, or won't say it to SR, just like LG... (us chickens in person, oh so sauve while on-line....)

And SR, my BS and I have an issue that she says now if she had known about it before getting married, she wouldn't have married me. Happened years before we ever met. I do not let her play the W/S/C game with it, however. And she knows now, because of the Harley MB Questionaires.

And MU: You have from your laundry list posted above your next assignment. Please discuss at your next 5 of 15 hours of Harley time, the first ten issues on the list. If you can not finish in 5 hours, take what time you need. Then have the next 10 hours of Harley time to do fun things. Then the next 5 hours to do the next 5 things. Take an hour each. The later items have more meat on them to discuss. And MU starts this conversation. And gets to talk for 5 minutes, then SR gets five minutes to talk. NO interuptions. Respect the person talking. THen repeat. The final 40 minutes can be more free form.

SR:

I wanted to point out something on LilSis's Cunning OW Thread may apply here.

Please read about the last four days of info on LilSis's thread. There was the start of a parenting theme that started, but needed to be quelled for now, and info from schoolbus about how to talk to your husband and body language.




MU, let's try to be sincere. And look into her eyes when you say them... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



MU: Do you see the perception differences, HERE?

Oh, and look into her eyes while doing it as well.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



THIS is a big one. Sounds like LG and LG's W. Had this happen on Monday this week. LG's W was stressed because of work and spiralled down to name-calling and connecting everything in our life to the fact that she "sacrificed" and I [email]F@@@ed[/email] OW all the time and had fun while she was tied to a horrible everything.... OUCH. I offered to rub her feet with lotion to help her calm down. My surefire way to get her calmer and more centered and I can attempt to validate her feelings.... SHE SAID NO! Stay Away! And climbed out of bed to Get Away!

I was crushed. It was a new turn. She would hit the downslope and I would attempt to get her back up, but this was a new low. And I took it as if she really was ready to call it quits. I withdrew. For 2 days. Just spoke when spoken too, my side of the bed, etc. Just down right cold to her. My normal response from about 3 years ago, and even longer than that. And I knew it was wrong. But I was hurt, and pi$$ed at her. So tough.

Not very manly of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

We worked it out Wednesday. But we also talked about ways of preventing it from happening again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LG

PS: MU? How about changing the name of the thread? Maybe to "Think I deserve help now?"

I think so... Are you telling us to put the possibility of divorce back on the table? For two reasons: 1) as a consequence for future infidelity (on either side) and 2) to prevent feeling trapped. Is that what you are saying? Our counselor told me this on my last visit. I need to be willing to leave the marriage in order to have the power to save it.



I'm glad you won't let her hang it over your head. I'm trying to avoid doing this to Messdup too. The post you pulled out with this quote was written the day after D-day for me. I've come a long way since then. I recognize that type of thinking will get me nowhere.



Do you ever wonder if radical honesty should be modified to "relevant honesty" for things that happened before the relationship began? Sometimes it seeems like such a can of worms!!

Thanks again LG. Tell me if/how I can help with your issue at home. Run some stuff by me and I'll give some feedback if you'd like.

SR:



Interesting that the MC picked up on that.

No, it's not about putting Divorce back on the table. (Although it is always available for future actions)

It's about dealing with the past as it should be dealt with and keeping it in its proper context.

If you have known about this tryst at the time, you may not have gotten married back then. Because it was a boundary for you. 16 years later, it may still be a boundary, but a boundary you are unwilling to enforce. Because if you were, you would have been divorced now. Know matter what is on this website. Because it was your boundary, and it was crossed and you need to enforce.

When you think about it that way, Sort of puts you in the BOX doesn't it?

But you can transfer the BOX to your H by saying "IF I had KNOWN, I would have never married you!"

SR out of the BOX, and MU in it, but, more difficult for MU to transfer that BOX.

And that is keeping it in the proper context. We need to keep our BOXes to ourselves. What you would have done then is not what you are doing now. MU isn't the same guy he was then. He may even be worse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> And that may be a reason to divorce now. But I do not think so.