I think there may be a cultural difference here. 'Casual dating' as such is a US concept, in my experience, although its being exported around the world now.
My experience was we tend to be either friends or exclusively committed. There wasn't anything much in between.

Small aside:I was shocked the first time an american man invited me out, I turned up with 2 friends, assuming it was a friendly general invitation, only to see by the look on his face that he meant something different! talk about cross-cultural confusion...

In any case, I agree with the gist of noodle's post about where the issues might be.

I respectfully disagree that anything else is not a commitment, Pep. Maybe, as Smur says, it's a cultural difference. My own experience was kind of weird in that I only went out with 3 different guys before I married. The OM (5 years), the b/f after that (9 months) who did cheat and I still remember the pain, another shortlived b/f after that (3 months), then Rob. I think I went on 2 actual dates in my whole life. I mean guys who asked me out and I went out with them once. I always took dating extremely seriously. I don't think TA's DD is reacting in an extreme way. I think she's fallen in love for the first time. I could well be wrong, you are all wise people and I've been wrong on so many things so many times and you guys have been right.

But that's neither here nor there. I do understand the pain TA is going through. It hurts like he// to see your children going through pain, especially when you know that their lives will actually turn out all right in the end.

TA, I think you could try and stay connected with her by telling her why you have such difficulty listening. If its directly related to your pain, then tell her that.

Perhaps hearing that from you is what she needs in order to understand that her actions are callous and immature at best.. and amount to an A at worst.

Well said Smur. Good to "see" you again BTW my little blue friend. Oh you're not a little blue friend, you're missing an "f".

Just to fill in some information...

In the beginning, DD was told that the boy was in a relationship that was going nowhere, that he intended to break it off, and that the ending was essentially a formality. (Sound familiar?) As time went on, he never quite got round to breaking it off, and spent every weekend going home. My daughter eventually found herself being bundled out of a back door when the GF visited the boy at college - by that stage she was under no illusions. The boy finally admitted that he adored his GF, that both of them saw it as a permanent relationship, but that he was scared she would dump him while he was gone, so was getting his retaliation in first.

DD was told by everyone around her that what she was doing was self-destructive, was quite aware of that and of the selfishness, but did it anyway.

My problem is that, being brutally honest, I have little sympathy for her. I feel very guilty about this, and I don't know how to assess my own emotions and work out how to deal with this in a fair and compassionate way.

DD has always been a drama queen; she goes through life in a cloud of panic and emotional emergencies. In the family we've learned to enforce strict boundaries about this, and the friendship circle she grew up in is similarly resistant. So she mainly tries it on with new people - most people react to her Big Panics by struggling to fix things for her...it takes them a while to realise that they will be fixing things forever, and that they will never get thanked. At University, I suspect she found a whole new pool of fresh blood and simply O/D'd on all the sympathetic, exciteable attention...and now is out of control in a way she hasn't been before.

I've resigned myself that the only way she will learn is to be badly burned over something, and perhaps this is the something. I don't know...

She is very competitive, as was observed - she has a strong need to be better than others, and hates to lose at anything. She also despises 'ordinariness', and I think a lot of her pain is the sense that she has lost to a person who is not as special as she is. In both cases, she has a lot to learn. Or am I being too hard on her?

The hard part of this for me is listening to the detailed inner journey of an OW - I am triggered to the point of madness and just want her to shut up beyond a certain point. If all this mess hadn't happened to me, perhaps I would be able to deal with it sensibly, without the awful, shrieking emotions that listening to DD raises in me. At times, she's muttered, "It's so unfair to tell you all this. This is the last thing you want to hear." So she's aware of the pain being caused, but still does it, and I'm caught between wondering if she's honestly desperate, or if it's something deeper than that. There's a simmering anger in her towards her father, and also I think some guilt that she knew about the last OW, and didn't tell me. At times I wonder if she's in some way getting at me, or at him...through me. I just can't tell; my judgement is off.

I feel as if I'm being emotionally blackmailed - by the dramatic exam failures, the huge debts she's run up ("I just didn't care about anything..."), the sobbing calls that she's alone in her student house and feeling hopeless. I ask myself if she's reaching for something in a dysfunctional way, if she needs special attention...but then I recall the drama queen personality and I feel myself pulling back.

I just wish she'd stop calling me. I wish she'd call her father and make his conscience hurt. I really feel HE ought to be the one picking up the emotional tab on this one. And that does not sound like the statement of a loving, compassionate mother and I don't like myself much for saying it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

TA

Just my opinion, but if I was attracted to a woman who was not married and wanted to pursue a relationship with her, I would...even if she was in a "committed" dating relationship.

You're not "committed" until you say "I do"

Otherwise, fair game.

I see this a lot on these boards...folks wanting to attach "marriage" rules and dynamics to relationships that are not marriages.

I ussually try not to advise those folks becasue I come across as uncaring when I do...

But I don't think "going steady" is anything like marriage...and different rules apply...

Sorry...I don't see it as infidelity.

TA - Your daughter's in the clear.

TA

on the issue of OW for your DD, I'm not sure its right to call it that YET. I do think she has fallen in love for the first time and just can't see past the beating heart & sweaty hands a yes the drama of it all.
And she is finding out that you don't always get what you want, even in something so wonderful as love.
I don't think its wise to down play her hurt or swinging moods of hurt and pain, the danger is that she may not be able to see past the present & feel that its the be all and end all of her life. We know its not of course but she may not feel that way.

I feel that if no permanent commitment has been made by the young man & other gf its not like a marriage commitment. If they were living together, engaged or planning either I would think yes its cheating on a real relationship with a life partner. A signature on a M certificate makes no difference to me, a commitment is a commitment.
Just being a gf & bf even if close and maybe wanting to commit later on is a bit different. Until you commit you are not committed.

I do feel she is being used and thats not something anyone should have to go through, but many of us do I guess.

Why not GET dad to talk to her and comfort her. Sounds like a darn good idea. At the least it would give her a clear message both of you care and want to help and get the message through - this guy is a user be careful. As well as giving you a breather. Make sure you debrief him first so the same message gets out there.

Just be a mum TA and shut that OW away from your mind for now. When this is over, because it will end, painful as it may be for you and her right now, maybe you could then talk with her carefully about the rocky road she may have been turning to. Being a OW is no future for anyone.

A counsellor may be a good idea if she seems so upset. It may help to keep the issue in perspective.
Oh and being a good mum does NOT mean you don't feel upset, annoyed or even angry at your kids behaviour, adults or not! If my mum hadn't helped me face myself I may not have a M right now. A loving mum isn't always hugging you and saying all will be ok. Theres a time for the kick in the butt as for the hugs.

This is about one of the lowest class posts I have ever seen on this site. LO, do you happen to have children??? I would doubt it... because no parent would think it is okay if there child was the betrayed partner in your little sorted game.
Very problematic post IMO. People are committed to another... in any respect when they say they are... and anyone that tries to break their way into that sitaution when they have been given the facts is flat out wrong. Your post seems to suggest that a persons word is good only until they choose to break it. Very disheartening... you sound like a fogged out OP and not a MB veteran.

I agree that I wouldn't exactly call her the OW. She did something pretty slimy, and she knew it was slimy, but she did it anyway. She played with fire and now she's toast.

I think I would also not be too sympathetic if this happened to one of my DD's. Have you tried being honest with her about how much this is triggering you, how much it hurts you.

Sounds like this guy wanted a temp to fill in for his GF, and your DD was willing, then she wanted to change the rules. She pushed him to make a choice and he did, just not the one she wanted. Now she can choose to get over him and get on with her life or she can pine away for him. Either way, she's not going to end up with him in her life.

Perhaps if possible, she should transfer to a new university. It might be good to not have him living around the corner.

Who

Seems that if both of them saw it as a permanent relationship that about covers the committment issue. He used his excuses to get close to another girl for fun... just like the WS do.

TA needs to continue to be a mother... but with all the experience of having been a BS. It is part of who she is and it should color her perception of clearly worng behaviors.

Jen, I agree with your viewpoints and take on this 100%.

IMO “going steady”; having an “exclusive relationship” or getting engaged is indeed a commitment to ONE person until one or both of them decide to break such commitment…or unless there is a mutual agreement and honesty between both to carry on with dating others. But IMO such an agreement (where one or both partners carry on dating others) is not an “exclusive relationship” anymore. Also, IMO to say an “exclusive relationship” or engagement is NOT a commitment, almost sound like "fog talk" and an excuse/ rationalization/justification to cheat on a BF/GF or fiancée! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Whether this situation meets the dictionary definition of infidelity or not, this young girl is certainly being treated as an OW by the boy.

She is being kept a dirty little secret, used at his convenience, and strung along to fill in when his legitimate/priority woman isn't available. Sounds like an OW to me.

The question that would concern me as a mother is "why". Why does this feel like love to her?

Why is she pining after a man who has told her he is unavailable for a complete relationship? Why is she holding on so tightly to someone who treats her like this?

Combined with her "drama queen" history, I would say this is something she would do well to address in counseling and pretty quickly. Hopefully, then she can avoid becoming an OW that no one has a problem identifying, or marrying a man who is emotionally unavailable in some really hurtful way.

TA,

I think you need to tell your daughter how you feel. She needs this lesson so she doesn't follow down the same path as her father.

When I was a teenager, I suspected my mother was having an A. It absolutely ripped me up inside. In addition to some other family issues that were going on, it made me suicidal. I had to go on ADs.

My mom knows about my A. Just last month, she admitted to having a EA with a man several years ago. She then said she may have had "several more." She got very emotional when she told me this, but I changed the subject. I couldn't handle it. My suspicions as an adolescent were correct... the lying, the sneaking around, the change of dress, etc. When I told my mom about my A, she called me a "woman of low moral character" yet she did the same thing.

When I was in college, I had a roommate who constantly cheated on her steady BF who was a good friend of mine (he was my friend first... that's how they met.) When I told him, she turned it around on me... I was jealous and I didn't want them to be together. This roommate's father was an alcoholic who cheated on her mother... my roommate despised him, yet she was acting just like him.

My point is... children learn from their parents and families. I believe, on some subconcious level, that my mom's EA when I was a teenager taught me that it was "okay" to have an A (eventhough I was disgusted by it at the time, and am still disgusted by it.) She "showed" me how to do it... how to sneak, how to lie, how to justify. The situation with my roommate also confirms my belief in this.

It appears to me that your daughter is acting out the same pattern she learned from her father. I think you need to tell her how you feel about this, and how painful it is to listen to. She needs the side of the BS. She's villianizing this boy's GF and she needs that perspective.

I don't have children so maybe I'm off base here, but if my dad had sat down and told me how he felt about my mom's As then maybe I would have seriously thought twice about doing what I did. I can't be sure though.

KM

This thread is helping me to focus on what's really bothering me...and I realise that it's something intensely personal and self-protective. (Which I'm not sure is a bad thing - I was raised to believe that it was selfish to put myself first in anything.)

Whether dating is fair game or not; whether DD can be regarded as an OW or not...I think that's for DD to deal with on her own. I'm made my views known to her very clearly all the way through, and she is old enough to cope with the consequences of her own decisions. I'm firm on the tough love aspects of this; I don't think I could have modelled good morals any more clearly; I hold her to account for her own actions. I will support her to the extent that I can and should.

The problem for me is that I am being forced to see the inner workings of an OW, up close and personal. It's like being forced to read TOW every day. I wouldn't do that, and I don't want to do this. I think I've suffered enough, frankly, without this on top.

There is so much badmouthing of the BS. The boy had a previous GF, and I have heard endless second-hand accounts of how difficult and unpleasant this girl was reported to be (by the boy). He also spent much time telling DD what a cow the current GF is - she is torn by knowing that this is pretty sh*tty behaviour, and a kind of longing to believe it.

When I'm forced to listen to this stuff, it makes my blood boil. In H's As, I know how much badmouthing of me went on behind my back, and it really hurts to see up close how someone would go about encouraging your spouse to criticise you, and what kinds of words were probably used, and the eagerness of the OW to believe you were an undesirable, emotionally unstable hag.

So I force those issues out of my mind, and point out to DD that she only has the boy's word for it, and the fact is that he hasn't left his GF, so she can't be anything like as black as he's painted her, and what does DD thing he will say about her behind her back. And she sobs even harder and I feel like a torturer....

And she sighs and moans over the Good Times, and how much she wishes she could be sitting watching TV with him, and how much they made each other laugh, and how much more fun he had with her than with the GF...and I don't want to listen. I don't want to have to struggle not to hear those words in OW#4's mouth, I don't want to have to think about it. So I tell DD I can't listen any more, and she apologises but says that she's got no one else to talk to, and I feel awful.

AussiesWife, I would love above all else for H to take on this burden...but he would sooner remove his own testicles with a fork. And DD clams up around him, breaking off mid-sentence when he comes into the room. If she phones and he answers, she discusses lightweight, trivial stuff, then asks to speak to me and immediately dissolves into tears.

I have hinted to both of them that H might have excellent insider knowledge of the boy's real intentions and feelings - and I think this is exactly where he doesn't want to go. And exactly where she doesn't want to go, either.

When I try to discuss my own problems over this with him, he clams up too.

I have had appalling problems with my own nightmare parents for the last year. I have supported H through his mother's illness and death, and the distressing aftermath of that. DD has been a constant emotional drain since Christmas. I feel as if I've been expected to support everyone through the trauma of the last four years, and I just don't have any more to give.

I need a rest.

TA

Ditto this. Good observation, TruBluz.

TogetherAlone,

Something else that occurred to me is I wonder if you aren't in some way enabling this relationship by providing sympathy to her on such an extended basis.

If you have had boundaries in the past that kept her from getting attention for out-of-bounds behavior, perhaps she is keeping this relationship going unconsciously because you aren't doing the same here.

It just seems so unhealthy and almost sadistic for her to prattle on with this fogese when it clearly hurts you. And it seems unhealthy for you to allow it.

Is it really doing her any good?

I think perhaps her brother has the better approach.

Tru

My wife and I dated nine years before we were finely married. Somewhere along that time line our love and commitment toward each other grew and grew. By the time we finely walked down the aisle our promise to love and cherish each other had been a forgone conclusion long ago. We never felt pressured to marry and we willing to postpone our marriage several years so that her older sisters could marry first and to save her dad a few bucks. I am most certainly aware that not ALL pre-marriage relationships go this route yet I don’t think that my wife and I were unusual to have such a pre-marriage relationship. The very idea to consider that I could have had sex with someone else the day prior to my marriage and that would be OK, is preposterous.

Commitment, honesty, integrity, compassion, honor are NOT captive audiences to only married couples. If anyone thinks that the marriage document is a substitute for those human attributes then they will be sorely disappointed. Commitment, honesty, integrity, compassion, honor define a successful marriage and not the other way around. For a person to knowingly move in on another person’s mate, whether they are married or not, is despicable at the very kindest.

As for TA’s last post, I might advise her to slightly edit it and send it to her daughter to consider. TA, your daughter might benefit greatly from your adult point of view, a view that sounds very much on the mark.

It is sometimes so difficult to give our children the right tools to face an adult world nevertheless we must try.

Very best of luck to you and your daughter,

Mr. G

Mr. G... I agree 100%.

Very, very true and very wise words... Excellent post Mr. Goodstuff. Your whole post was good but I wanted to highlight the above paragraph and reposted it.

My views about this issue gained some clarity when I read Buyers Renters Freeloaders ... now sold under the name The One on this site's bookstore.

CLICK HERE

You might want to offer your daughter this book instead of the infidelity books .... this book, I think is very very helpful for those who find themselves in dating relationships that have not quite reached the committment level of marriage.

Pep