I don't need to relax Pep... you relax.

So, please address the bachelor party stuff... would that be okay in your way of looking at things???


I've been married Pep... I see that there is little differnce... have you walked in those shoes... been cheated on by a fiancee and a wife. I have. We can agree to disagree... but I will continue to make my points here. I'm not undermining your character at all. I even said something a while back about respecting you and noodle... but that doesn't change that I do not respect this position.

OK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll take your kind advice ... and r e l a x

Pep

MEDC..

If you WANTED to get laid at your BP I would rather know that before I committed to you for the rest of my life.

People say "I do" not "didn't I do it already?"

It brings the entire question of morals, ethics, and the boundaries we lay down as a result of them into play.

Personally..I think that premarital sex of any sort is a bad choice, an immoral choice, and consequently the people who engage in it find themselves in a compromised position more often than those who do not.

So..one could say..that a person who chooses to get laid at their bachelor party..would not be the person who SHARED my perspective on the timing, sanctity, and role of sex..and as such..I probably need to cancel the caterer. That man is not a good match for ME.

By your definition of committment and responsibility I could well ask you what responsibility YOU have to the future spouse of the women you have had sex with..is there a statute of limititations? If you are NOT her husband..and you pursue her..are you not taking something that doesn't belong to you?

If they have been "committed" since fourth grade?

High school?

College?

Two weeks?

Seven years?

There is a lot of grey area here..and a lot of subjectivity about what these "committments" actually entail.

What about the notion that your committment to your future bride and subsequent boundaries pre-exist the relationship?

That..it is THOSE committments that you need to honor and in doing so..you defacto also behave respctfully toward all women everywhere by keeping your interest well in bounds...whether they are "committed" or not.

My objection to TAs DDs behavior is that it lacks PERSONAL intergity and boundaries..she was out of bounds imo waaaaaay before the OW issue reared it's head and I think that is a large part of the reason WHY she is so overinvested..and my position is..when you are over the fence..does it matter if it's 100 miles or 1000? I would say not.

I would say the same to you with regard to your GF/fiancee.

Although I'm sure it's painfull and is betrayal and FEELS like an affair..I believe that you made a choice to step over and disregard the very boundaries that would have protected you from BEING in that position..so vulnerable..and invested..and with a child in the mix.

I think that you and TAs DD made the same choice and got pretty much the same result [heartbreak]..and I can tell already that this will offend you..but I'm not sure *why*.

You seem to be REALLY CONFUSED about something here...

I am talking about how someone OUTSIDE the relationship might behave...and what they owe it...

I'm NOT talking about how the PARTNERS in that relationship are behaving towards each other.

Got that straight?

Now...that said...

Let's say my D is engaged to man A. But man B wants her badly...

Until they are married, man B may pursue and woo to his hearts discontent...

However...should my D choose to give in to man B's advances, she owes man A an explanation...and a ring.

Let's even look at your scenario. Man A goes wild at the bachelor party...is it an affair? NO!!! Is it grounds for my D to call off the wedding...quite possibly.

So let's be clear about the perspective were advocating...

Noodle..I had an exclusive relationship with his mother.... she talked about our getting married... birth control failed. I have different views about sex now then I did back then... but I wanted to get married the moment we found out she was pregnant. She wanted to kill my baby... breaking her word that she would never do something like that. She played me for years... because she could.. she had a child to hang over me. But if you are insinuating... which it certainly appears that you are.. that I got what I deserved because we made a baby... that because I stepped over YOUR boundries (they were not mine at the time)... I was already invested before the baby was conceived... it was her words that were not genuine... I see nothing wrong with being emotionally invested to the point of exclusive committment... I see everything wrong with a person lying and not living up to their word.

The very thing that would have prevented me from being that invested would have been to never trust her word... or anyone elses for that matter... because if I had married her earlier... before sex.. she would have cheated, she's admitted as much.

I am rambling here because frankly I am pissed at you. I know I shouldn't be.. I shouldn't have expectations that you are a person that has similar morals to me.

no, I am very clear about your words... you said there is NO committment until the I do's. If there is no committment he would owe your daughter no explanation.

you were very clear when there was a committment.

COMMITTED = MARRIED = I DO

I did not say you got what you deserved because you made a baby..

What I AM saying is that whether you held that sexual perspective4 at the time or not..the behavior that you chose left you VULNERABLE to the results you got..and I think that TAs DD made the same choice and with the same result.

What about the "committments" he may have made to her?

Don't you think it's likely that she is desiring he be bound to them? Don't you see that in her words and inability to let go? She is hurt by his rejection..and hurt by the DEPTH of herself that she allowed to be involved in a realtionship WITHOUT a protective boundary.

I'm not trying to insult you with the comparison..I'm trying to point out some similarities that..because of my bias..are glaringly obvious to me..but seem to be off your radar and I'm wondering why.

i'm wondering the same thing about you noodle.

Care to articulate?

these things that i believe are just as glaringly obvious to me... and i don't get why you don't see it either.

Sorry MEDC but I find myself in agreement with Noodle, Pep and surprisingly Low Orbit - now what seriously are the odds on THAT ever happening?

no reason to apologize...I feel you are all off here... but that is just my opinion...

OK..I'll articulate.

TAs DD made some bad decisions..and in my bias I think she made some immoral decisions that left her vulnerable to the exact place she now finds herself. She ignorred the rules of engagement so to speak.

You did similarly with GF/finace..but here's the clincher and the part I'm not getting..you picked and chose which boundaries you would respect and which you would disregard..but you seem to have an expectation that OTHER people should play by some new set of rules that only exist in your own mind so that you can be protected in an out of bounds relationship and series of poor choices.

If you are NOT in that position [being overinvested for the level of committment] then the notion of having your date decide to date someone else instead isn't nearly so crushing..and that is the POINT of having and valuing the boundary. You don't have too much of yourself tied up in someone who may not be a worthy and trustworthy choice.

noodle... before I say something to you I will later regret... I will remove myself from this discussion with you.
Thank you for explaining your position which I felt I understood before...I think I am clear on what you are saying.
I just think you are very off base and would care to not get into this anymore since I will no doubt loose my cool with this topic as it IS very emotional to me.

Geez, noodle...everything you just wrote about boundaries, rules and choices just hit home with me...this is a lot to digest and applies to many things beyond this post...

This is my epiphany of the day...maybe even week or month...not sure what it means yet...but I have some heavy thinking to do on this...

Thank you

No problem.

LO,

We never seem to marginally agree or disagree..

Either I've got your back or I'll be kicking your shins.

In any case let me know what you come up with..I think it's interesting as well.

I think it might come down to the idea that we sometimes don't fully consider all of the ramifications of adopting a given value system or making a certain choice...or maybe we don't fully understand how our chosen values are creating/perpetuating the situations we're in without or knowledge...

I know that sounds obvious but there's more in there I'm trying to dig to...maybe tomorrow...

I have to go to bed...maybe dreams will solve it...they sometimes do you know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

One thing that's clear about this thread is that everyone involved has strong opinions about right and wrong, and where boundaries should be drawn. There's lots of disagreement, but that doesn't disguise the fact that each poster has a sense of personal integrity that they try to adhere to.

It occurs to me that my daughter is unsure what her personal integrity really is. And I'm beginning to wonder if that's because she gets mixed messages from her parents. She gets strong opinions from me, and she gets no opinions at all from her father. What can she take from that?

It is beginning to dawn on me how angry I am at H's lack of establishing any kind of moral position...on anything. I can't think of any time since I've known him when he's pinned his colours to the wall on how people should behave towards one another. In fact, I've often got the impression that he sees himself as broadminded and tolerant, and thus superior to people like me who have fixed standards about some things. He doesn't behave badly or disrespectfully to people (except, obviously, me for a long secret time), but there has been no time in the kids' lives when they've had two parents telling them unequivocally that something is wrong. They've had one vocal and opinionated parent, and one silent parent apparently acquiescing. The closest he's ever got is to warn them of the consequences of their actions in terms of the world's reaction. He has never said - ever - that they should or shouldn't do something because it simply violates a moral code.

Even if that moral code is something that they would not personally agree with, I suspect that the very idea that both parents feel that a moral code should be established and adhered to, is something that affects children's attitude to the world.

I've come to suspect that what looks superficially like a moral code in some family cultures is really a conservative approach to risk...and that H's is one of those families.

It occurs to me that my daughter has watched her father walk all over the rights, boundaries and dignity of others - and not be 'punished' in any way that she can see. Instead, she's watched her mother struggle to give him time and space to rescue himself. She's watched him showing little emotional turmoil; he hasn't missed a single day's work, not even a minute. What message has that given her? That a generous heart is a valuable thing, or that a person can get away with a lot of bad behaviour, as long as there's a suitably soft-hearted mug willing to put up with it?

I suspect that H has been trained to see a moral code as something bigoted and judgemental, and is himself torn between the evidence that my moral code had been vital to the security of himself and our children, and a pull towards personal autonomy that has been ground into him since birth. I don't think he has resolved this within himself even now, and I wonder how much the sense of his rebellion against my firm code has seeped into DD and confused her?

And what do I do about that now?

(My DS is quite different, BTW. He's 18 months younger and about twice as old in terms of emotional development and empathy for others. Not quite sure how this has happened.)

TA

((( TA )))