So last night was fun. Third worst night ever. lol went for a movie and dinner ended up with me scared and screeming at LG in my 'best' crazy banshee voice while comanding him to get out of the car and let me drive. Oh Boy. What a fun evening!! So he went to his appointment this morning. thank god.

I went over to my moms last night after his explosion, and let her in on the fact there is some major problems in our relationship. that was incredbily hard. I actually woke her
up. Poor thing. Anyway she ahd several incredbile insights so now I am in a much better place psych wise. She said that it sounded like I was in an emotionally abusive situation. Not that he is sitting there thinking of ways of torturing me but that there is a cycle to all this. And if life is going well, or if attention is off LG for any real amount of time he has to pull it back by any means nessisary. All subconcious of course, but there is a 'method to his madness'.

I think that this whole thing with my sister is an extension of that. He cant allow himself to be happy or real in his emotions. As well I think that there was some major trauma in he 18-20 years that by hanging out with my sister he is attempting to heal it. These insane outburts of earth shattering self hate and terrifying anger are the moments when he regresses to 18 year old lg and has no coping skills.

The thing is I am also thinking that alot of this has to do with a building up of anxiety as well. He is anxious alot of the time so slowly those type of emotions build and he hopes that I do something to give him the opportunity to explode. But in the past I managed him. (it drives him nuts) so that he doesnt blow up in inappropriate places or at me. Ususally I am successfull is de-escalating the situation.

But I am not doing that anymore. I am not his manager. I REFUSE to be responsible for all this stuff. So now I need to find a new rolse for myself. I have alot of work to do. I am just so thankful that I was able to unload some of this stuff to my mom. I DID NOT tell her about the EA with my sister. But I think shortly she will put it all together on her own. She is such a smart woman and I feel like I have taken back my family just by talking to her. I can actually do this now.

I think I am going to go to my minister and ask for a referral to a marriage councellor so we can have three 'fun' appontments a week soon. Therapy for me, for him for us both. Anyway thats all from now. As allways input is allways welcomed.

Darkclouds.

dark clouds,

I have not read the Gottman books, but I've sat in on some of their lectures at the Smart Marriage Conference. They were kinda boring....sorry. You can order Harley's books on this site....so that's something that might help. I didn't take Janice Abrahms Spring's seminar about "forgiving" but I have read some of her books.....I like her stuff.

If your H is "in love" with your sister....I'm far more worried that you'll "under" react rather than "over" react. bigk is right that EAs can be just as damaging (sometimes even more) than PAs. I don't know what the future holds for the threee of you....there may come a time where your sister is in love with someone her own age, your marriage is recovered and H truly regrets his actions, and where there can be more family interaction.....but I'll be honest and say that the safest thing is no contact for always, and I'm not very hopeful about your husband and your sister EVER being able to interact in a healthy way for your marriage. I'm really sorry....I wish I didn't have to be so negative....but honesty requires that give you the best information that I know from my years of experience and study. Be careful about attempting to beat the odds and reintergrate your husband and sister.

So please check in....how are you doing today?

A few thoughts;

I have come to the conclusion that this whole thing is a symptom.

This isnt the actual disease. this is the symptom of something more.

I can not accept that this is the end and the whole deal. I think its going to get better through therapy, major major therapy.

I dont actually think that dealing with the A will acutally amount to much other than make myself feel like i am doing some thing.

I am now 100% sure that there are mental health issues here that I can not understand. I have only known lg for a small percentage of his life. There is damage there that I can not solve.

If he does not contact my sister we will prevent an a from happening sure. But only with her. Until he is o.k. menatly I will not feel safe.

It will take how long it will take. I might be condemming my relationship with my husband but I refuse to give him and his illness the power to rip apart this life we had made up until a few weeks ago, for ourselves. I point blank refuse.

He will stay away until I feel safe with him in my sisters presence.
But when I know that he is actually looking at the real issue in its ugly face I will re-evaluate.

I can not accept that my decision now will be the decsion for ever. Its too complicated for that.

This one coping skill (keeping him away from her) make sence now. But in a few months it might not make sence then.

Anyway thats where I am at right now.
Until latter
DC

Is your sister still in high school or just finishing high school?

I have some thoughts speaking as a mother of a 19 year old son.

I also have some thoughts coming from the experience of having had to distance myself from my family on account of my H's affair.

After you answer the question about your sister's life situation, I will be getting back to you, DC.

Keep posting here. We can help you.

Well she is 19. She is going to be going to the same university as me.

She is a wonderful incredibly mature, insightful, deep thinking, reflective, creative, lovely girl. She deserves the best. Not a secondhand, wierd relationship with her brother in law.

She has not had a real boyfriend but has many many many friends. She is very, extreamly community and politically focused. She is an activist for social justice and volunteers regularily. We are best friends really.

Have you seen that movie In Her Shoes? With Toni Collette and Cameron Diaz? Well She is my youngest sister (I have one more) and our realtionship between the three of us is very like that movie, excpet that I have never gotten as angery with her as Toni COlletttes character does.

I dont fight with my sisters. Period. last time I yelled at either was over a year ago and before that, maybe 2 years before then. so its very rare.

Jelously usually is a none issue between us. My two sisters are some times jelous of eachother, but they are 'Irish Twins" so its not really surprising :P

My middle sister (not the one in the EA) suffers from some major mental health issues so she has a heavy burden to carry. But we are good together in spite of it.

I guess what i am saying is that I need them in my life. I can not accept life without them, and I love them more than I can say, or really express in any way. They are 7 and 8 years younger than me and I take my responsability as a big sister incredibly seriously. Allways have, allways will.

thanks mimi.

darkclouds

What your husband has done to you is a MAJOR TRAGEDY..not to be downplayed by you one bit, DC.

My heart is truly aching for you.

I will be back to talk with you later.

DC,

I have come to the conclusion that this whole thing is a symptom.

Most affairs ARE a symptom....that's why there is so much hope for recovery. I'm not trying to take away your hope....I am trying to help you be realistic about your husband's ability to have a "normal" relationship with your sister, both now, and in the future.

This isnt the actual disease. this is the symptom of something more.

I agree with you again. What do you suspect the "disease" is?

I can not accept that this is the end and the whole deal. I think its going to get better through therapy, major major therapy.

There is every hope and reason to believe that this can get better and that you can have a much healthier and happier marriage....unfortunately you may not be able to integrate your sister into that new marriage....you may have to have a relationship with her that is separate from your marriage.

I dont actually think that dealing with the A will acutally amount to much other than make myself feel like i am doing some thing.

I understand this feeling....because like you....my husband's infidelity had absolutely nothing to do with his love for me, or my love busting, or his needs not being met. The "disease" was something else....and the symptom was the infidelity. Dealing with affair was not the crucial part of dealing with rebuilding. However, my H was not "in love" anyone....didn't have to go through withdrawal from that person....and so I didn't face the same challenges that you do.

I am now 100% sure that there are mental health issues here that I can not understand. I have only known lg for a small percentage of his life. There is damage there that I can not solve.

And you have past abuse issues too....which is not surprising since people with those kinds of issues tend to gravitate towards each other. Hopefully, the therapy will help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If he does not contact my sister we will prevent an a from happening sure. But only with her. Until he is o.k. menatly I will not feel safe.

You're right....but an A with your sister is doubly damaging....and therefore especially important to prevent....don't you think? I know of a couple of posters who have experienced their spouse having an affair with a family member or best friend....and it's THE most awful kind of betrayal we see here.

It will take how long it will take. I might be condemming my relationship with my husband but I refuse to give him and his illness the power to rip apart this life we had made up until a few weeks ago, for ourselves. I point blank refuse.

Good for you....but keep in mind....his relationship with your is the one that has to change drastically....you can still have a very active relationship with your family. It may be harder and sometimes uncomfortable....but the potential chaos that you can avert....is far preferable.

He will stay away until I feel safe with him in my sisters presence.
But when I know that he is actually looking at the real issue in its ugly face I will re-evaluate.

I think that's a good plan.....as long as you're especially cautious and remain mindful of the risks.

I can not accept that my decision now will be the decsion for ever. Its too complicated for that.

I respect your right to orchestrate your own life chere....no matter what you decide (and you don't have to agree with me okay?) I'm sure folks here will help and do their best to continue to protect and help you.

This one coping skill (keeping him away from her) make sence now. But in a few months it might not make sence then.

Please do some more reading before you dismiss some of the long term issues of recontact.....at least do that before making up your mind. Start a thread and ask WSs about how "some" contact worked for them. *hint* it was a disaster even for people who had been in recovery for a very long time. But it's a thread I think would give you some insight into what goes on in your husband's mind....okay?

Anyway thats where I am at right now.
Until latter

Here's a (((((((((((((((DC)))))))))))))))) just to let you know people care. Keep posting.

mimi,

I'm so glad to see you responding....I think DC could really benefit from some more pespectives and advice instead of just mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

star*fish and mimi,
I appreciate your responces and I wan tto digest what you said star*fish. I think I am going to go have a shower and go out for the afternoon. I need to go have some 'me' time. i will think about what you said and be back latter. Mimi I am really curious about your view on this please keep posting. I really value eveyrones ideas and support.

DC

still collecting my thoughts...

what is your relationship like with your mother?

What kind of person is she?

How would she handle this?


Hi Star..what a difficult, difficult situation for DC..

OK Mimi I am gonna try to answer your email now.

What is my relaitonship like with my mother?
two words - Incredibly blessed. We are making the trasition from Mother daughter to friends beautifully. We had rough patches when I was between the ages 16-20 (16 and 19 being the worst years respectively) but worked through them. I think my mother is the wiest person I know, the person who I admire most on this planet and the person who i would most like to become. she is my confidant and we talk a lot. We disscus everything under the sun (except sex, lol) and play 'devils advocate' for eachother. She is most definatly the matriarch of our family and I respect her for that. She can drive me nuts at times and knows every button of mine to push. It hurts sometimes to sit in between her and my sisters and, or my dad know both points of view but be unable to act as interpreter very effectively.

What kind of person is she?
My mom is a very strong person. She stands up to her fears and deals with things in an incredibly blunt manner. She uses both of those things to help her fight cancer and deal with her own deamons from a childhood that I would wish on no one. She struggles with enabling and a tendency to not trust but is aware of both. She tends to over protect her chidldren and is most certainly a 'mother bear'. She read voraciously and uses that to learn about eveyrthing in her life. She 100% believes in the concept I saw on someones signature line, "Family means no one is forgotton or left behind." She can be incredibly critical and has a tendancy to not change her mind once its been made. she is a feminist and belives in personal power and responsability. She covets hard work and perceverance and she does not agree with divorce as a way to solve problems. She has been married for over three decades and is still in love with the man she married. She believes in partnerships, but knows that the woman is the heart of the home. That old saying; happy wife happy life ect And most importantly of all she has one wicked sense of humor. She is a laugher when most would be crying.

How would she handle this?
Well we are about to find out. I am sure she is putting the pieces together as I type this. I went over there at the wee small hours of the morning today to get a much needed hug and sense of support. I told her that lg feels I am not meeting his EN and that he is having a hard time still loving me. (only way I could get accross the seriousness of the situation without exactly saying affair) I told her that I am worried that he is mentally ill and that I am feeling like i am going crazy. She brought alot of stuff into focus for me. I told her about his rages and bouts of extreem self hatered and self abuse, and how much they scare me. I told her he keeps saying how aweful he feels and that I should probably just leave him. So with all that she knows what trouble we are in.

So there you are. And I didnt even cry when I wrote this one! Oh and I did go buy my mom flowers today as a thank you for last night. She really was wonderful and just what I needed.

DC

So how would she handle knowing about your H's feelings about your sister?

I think she may need to protect and take care of the both of you through this.

Well I told her pretty much everything last night so she is on the case. If I told her, or if my sister told her that would be a huge issue. I wouldnt trust she would accept it when fwh and I reconcile. I would have a hard time worrying what she was thinking about him.

I've been reading your story and probably missed it, but I have a question. Do you have any children with your husband?

Nope, not a one. I am still in university and he is in th eprocess of building up his business.
dc

THIS ALREADY IS A HUGE ISSUE, DC. I'm thinking that for your own and your sister's EMOTIONAL SAFETY your mother needs to know the absolute truth. It sounds like she would handle this wisely.

This could be very DAMAGING to your sister, affecting her ability to be in a normal relationship, affecting her view of marriage and intimacy, making her fearful of closeness, unsure about her sexuality..a multitude of complex issues are at play here.

And so what if your M would not accept a reconciliation? That does not mean that you cannot reconcile. It is your life, DC. You are a grown, married woman now. You can make your own choices and at the same time continue to seek SUPPORT and GUIDANCE from your mother. You are not expected to FOLLOW HER COMMANDS.

It would be appropriate and expected for her to be thinking negatively of him given how he has treated her children. That is THE TRUTH. Exposure is best, I think.

As others have stated to you, you cannot afford to DENY the SERIOUSNESS of this situation.

More questions: What were the recreational activities that your H and sister participated in? Did the actiivites involve any touching? LG indicated that your sister knows that the relationship was inappropriate. How does he know this? What has she said about this to you?

Hey Mimi
here is what I am thining re your post

THIS ALREADY IS A HUGE ISSUE, DC. I'm thinking that for your own and your sister's EMOTIONAL SAFETY your mother needs to know the absolute truth. It sounds like she would handle this wisely

Hey Mimi
here is what I am thining re your post

THIS ALREADY IS A HUGE ISSUE, DC. I'm thinking that for your own and your sister's EMOTIONAL SAFETY your mother needs to know the absolute truth. It sounds like she would handle this wisely

Well I think my emotional health would take a bigger hit from having to worry about her. I am watching my sister closely for signs of change/difficulty ect. But ultimatly this is something between lg myself and my sister. We are all adults. If I see any overt signs that this is impacting my sister negatively I would first talk with her, and then talk with my mom.

And so what if your M would not accept a reconciliation? That does not mean that you cannot reconcile. It is your life, DC. You are a grown, married woman now. You can make your own choices and at the same time continue to seek SUPPORT and GUIDANCE from your mother. You are not expected to FOLLOW HER COMMANDS.

I am not yet at the stage where I can accept the poepl I love most on this planet disliking eachother. I may get there, I may not. But at this point I am thinking that I want to hold that card close to my chest. I feircely want this to get behind us and for us as a family unit (which includes my H) to heal and regaina s much normalicy as possible. that would becoem impossible if I told her.


What were the recreational activities that your H and sister participated in? Did the actiivites involve any touching?
Rollerblading, tennis, mountian biking, and being driven around (to work, school, friends) by my H. thats esentially it. No I dont think there was any physical contact. My husband is not demonstrative by any means. He is NOT comfortable with people touching him. he was raised in a family where physical contact of any sort, really was frowned upon. by and large it still is. My sister by her actions or words has never lead me to believe she was comfortable touching him, or familier in being touched by him.


LG indicated that your sister knows that the relationship was inappropriate. How does he know this? What has she said about this to you?

Alot of what he posted was 'foggy' talk. Unp until I sopke with my mom I was fairly sure that my sister knew nothing and had no inckling that something inapporpriate was going on. But my mom related a story to me that changed my view slightly. She said that she asked her why she hadnt been hanging out with my H as much. My sister said that she just thought that it was getting too much and that she felt that she was allways hanging out with him and that she was missing chances to be with her girl friends. She also said that she knew that I wasnt happy about it, so she thought she would back off. (there had been one previous occasion where I had freaked out at lg, and I think my sister overheard me saying how its wierd how much time he was spending with her, and how I felt I was being replaced)
Up until this point my sister has said nothing to me about any of this, and I highly, highly doubt she ever would. She will move on, as is her character brush this aside and in a few months totaly forget about it. Not that she will forget everything, but she will selectively choose what to remember. She is frighteningly good at that. In the end she will remember there was something slightly odd abotu this summer but she wont recal exactly what.

DC

i'm confused.

Does your mother KNOW or NOT?

From what you say here your mother knows about the inappropriate relationship with your sister.

From larrygeorge, the WH:

I'm getting the impression actually that my wife's mother DOES NOT know about the extent of the relationship... it sounds to me like she's aware that the time spent between my wife's sister and I was causing friction in the marriage, but I don't think she is aware of any inappropriateness in the relationship itself.

But I'm not sure my wife perceives the same.

I think TOTALLY CONFUSED is an appropriate name for this thread.

From what you are saying, the mother DOES KNOW.

If the time spent between LG and his SIL has caused friction in the marriage THEN the relationship IS inappropriate.

How can that NOT be an INAPPROPRIATE RELATIONSHIP?

The extent of DENIAL and RATIONALIZATION in this situation is SCARY.

Thank goodness LG and the SIL are maintaining No Contact.