Thank you, (((Nab)))

:::sending Rin lots of peace and strength:::

Just returning back what you've given me.

Telling myself the new mockery is about them, not me.

Rinse.

Repeat.

LOL

LA

LA:

I just read your post about your OS.

Pardon me for the threadjack rant:

Another government induced grab of personal belongings.

They did it to the tobacco comapnies to the tune of 250 billion.

And they do it this way to the regular citizen.

Because your son let a "friend" use his car.

I understand the forfeiture rules. If I have ill-gotten gains from criminal activity, the government can take them, and hopefully, redistribute them to the parties that were offended against.

Not what happens. The funds from forfeitures go into a black hole. The Sheriffs, DA, police and other agencies, take the proceeds to purchase other equipment for the departments. And its all "off the books" No legislative and or administative review. In other words, the person taking the property, is also the person who gets to control the dispostion of the property, spend the proceeds the way they want, and there is NO oversight.

Pretty scary, Huh?

And the Supreme Court, in a case from Michigan, involving a prostitute and taking of the car used for this activity, even though the owner did not know of its use in this manner, Rubber-stamped it.

Talk about shooting the 4th amendment full of holes.

So, LA, fight the fight. The 4th amendment issues, if they are laid out like you state, are there. Your son loaned a car to someone, that had a suspended drivers license. Your son "assisted" this person in the committing of the crime of "driving with a suspended license" and therefore, you get to lose the equity in the car, and you still have the liability to the Bank. Pretty fair to YOU right?

Please, other posters, do not clutter this argument with this guys prior driving record. Do YOU know the driving record of EVERYONE you might consider loaning your car too? Your BIL? Your SIL? The guy in the office that you have known for two years? Heck, even your Mother?

The way this statute is written, literally anything can be used to "take" the property of somebody, that the person who profits from the "taking" gets to determine what the charge is. And there is presumed guilt, YOU have to petition the government to get your stuff back.

Truly horrible law.

Threadjack Rant over.

Otherwise, LA, sorry you were in a funk. I hope you get past it soon. I do enjoy your posts, and your ability clarify for posters around here to own thier own abstract "stuff" is amazing.

(((LA)))

LG

This is not an accurate accounting of the facts LG.

LG:

Do you comprehend SOULSPEAK?

LOL.

MEDC:

"Not an accurate accounting of the facts"

MEDC: Sorry. More cases of gimmicky accounting in this area are surfacing all the time.

I did paint a broad brush in my RANT. (properly labeled)

When you take and gouge out a HUGE hole in the 4th amendment, and then you spread the way to enforce, regulate and administer a process across the 10,000 counties, departments and organizations in the country, even in perfect daylight, there will be problems.

But many times, these programs are kept in the edges, and in the dark of most budgets.

And many of them are run cleanly.

But the chance for abuse, is real high. Due to the lack of daylight, and the circumstances in which thay can gain possession of the "tainted property"

I'm OK with taking the drug profits and cash from the drug dealers. Taking the property that was purchased with the ill-gotten gains in thier HOME. However, the statutes are so broad, that folks like LA can get caught in the vise, and there is NO Recourse. THAT is my main beef.

I have a 15 year boy, like you have a 13 year old. My son applies for the learners permit in 3 months. It scares me to think that he could lose a car because of somebodies elses actions. That he had no prior knowledge, nor ability to KNOW about thier prior actions.

Driving around on a suspended license? That's harsh.

In the car, when a real crime is committed? Robbery, drug deal, etc? Ok. Even if it was my car and my son. Those are the consequences of that decision.

LG

Mimi:

Do I comprehend?

Certainly.

Years ago, when I was stupid, I didn't. I would have thought it was stupid.

Then I got smarter.

But, hey, that's me.

LG

I do understand better now LG...it as rather broad and I know that in Philly the dollars are very closely monitored. There is some recourse...although I imagine there are a few hoops to jump through.

Oh, and LG...I consider driving on a suspended license a real crime. Most times there are exceptionally compelling reasons to suspend a license.

Hi, LA...thank you very much...I'm so happy that we have a R that is so flexible in it's nature...

As far the rest...it is what it is! We know...when something does sit right with us and we have to weed our garden to figure out what exactly are the weeds and what is not...Aren't we all to familiar with pointing the finger at something other than the problem...that is until our emotions have had a chance to settle with the tide...

Are you practicing being? What about self-care? Oh, and OF course, a meeting would certainly help, as you mentioned...have you chose to go to one since stating that? holding yourself accountable for turning your spiral around?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LG- Check out my thread sweetie... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> FOOTBALL!!! And guess what...I ask...doesn't your son play for ____? Only question I was concerned with!!!!

MEDC- I love your quote!

MEDC:

Driving on the suspended license is a "real Crime", I understand that.

Taking your car because you loaned it to someone you didn't KNOW had a suspended license is a crime as well.

If he knocks off a liquor store on the way back to your house, and the police impound the vehicle FOR THAT, that's a circumstance when the process to get your car back, should be tilted in your favor, but administrativly more difficult.

But, to take YOUR car, because THEY are driving on the suspended license, is harsh, and an affront to the 4th amendment.

Because it all takes place before any judical proceedings. Your CAR is GONE. You have to ask for it back. But they might sell it first.

LG

Do we know WHY the license was suspended? If it was for a DUI, I would say that it should be considered. I understand your concern LG...but think about the flip side of this. Someone with a suspended license could thumb their nose at the law by always choosing to drive someone else's car. Do we not have a responsibility to assure those that are borrowing our tools/cars or anything else potentially dangerous, are in fact capable of using them safely? I believe we do.
My 23 year old nephew, who is soon to be a cop, asked me if he could borrow my jet ski this past summer. i refused...why? I didn't feel he had demonstrated to me the ability to handle it properly.
I still firmly believe that this matter would be resolved in most jurisdictions without much of a problem. But LA should be forced to jump through a few hoops to get back the car...it was in fact used illegally...and I don't know that her child was unaware of this license issue....and either does the court.

LG, based on this, i am okay with the seizure. In addition, I would question why her son was out with someone of this wonderful character to begin with.

MEDC, I would very much appreciate you not posting to my thread.

LG,

OS just finished with court. He received 8 hours community service and fines for "interference". The judge over his ticket doesn't determine the civil suit against his car. I'm waiting to hear on total impound, court fees and storage.

The driver received 120 days on an ankle monitor and a fine.

I found only one news report about this Public Nuisance Abatement ordinance...and one police newsletter which said that 1745 civil cases had been filed against the vehicles of HTO's since they were added to the ordinance (18 months).

If we can come up with the fees, fines, court costs and impound cost, then they won't be able to auction his car.

It's independent of guilt, btw.

LA

That's what I call notifying the public!

That's crazy!

Thank you, Rin, for your encouragement.

No, I haven't gone to a meeting. I'm meeting the gym this afternoon, though! (Got my 3/4 mile to swim away the stress.)

As for notifying the public...it was enacted to be a deterrent...a secret deterrent.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi...I guessed LG spoke soulspeak...or maybe, soulsing. I swear I've heard music in his posts.

LA

WOW...what a swim...preparing for next year? With AmI?

LOL...I would have some serious problems with a SECRET deterrent...

You mentioned all of the fines, fees, etc...if you don't mind me asking, what are we talking here...

And what can be done to repeal the process, if anything? I'm sure that you have spoken with a lawyer about it...or are you guys going to stop at clearing your son?

And HOw is your son doing now? His wife? the rest of the family?

We don't know the tally yet...I think he has to be served with the civil suit first...they said there's a court order holding the car now.

I'm trying to figure out about appeals...this ordinance hasn't be up to the state supreme court to my knowledge...and I'm not sure if it can get there.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

How is he doing? Well, today, he's sick of state government, that's what he said. After court he took my old car to get emissions and tags and then changed out the tires to snows...in the snow. His youngest brother was with him, though...and he sounded good when he stopped by to unload the non-snow tires.

He's grateful for use of my car.

He and his wife are spending their third anniversary in the mountains...and taking Harley's questionnaires with them, they said. I don't know, really. She's pregnant again, so he's back home with her...he registered for classes in January...still has a job (thank goodness). Lots of pressure there, daily. Lots of deep hurts in each of them.

My son was guilty of interference because he allowed an HTO to drive his car with himself in it. That's what I understand. Could be wrong. He got a $142 fine for that and 8 hours of community service because he pled guilty in the hearing.

I know that $142 is 10% of his monthly income; and it was taken out of the $500 bond they posted last month to get him out of jail. I don't know about the mandatory $500 fine for the ordinance yet...don't know when that comes into play, nor the rest of the fees.

I know it also has cost him a day's pay.

He's working on getting help through the VA...he's gone each day after work for a week (guess they don't take appointments) and waits two hours to see if he can get counseling. One of the conditions of him moving back into the marital home.

I don't know what kind of lawyer to get...I forwarded legal services websites to them to contact and see if they qualify.

The swimming is for stress relief. When I lost weight before, I worked too much on my muscles (didn't know) and got down six dress sizes, but large muscles. This time, I want long ones.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Only way I can really process this stress right now. Feels like an afternoon at a spa to me...how I view it...do you think, old body-building wonderwoman, that I will get long muscles this way, if I do a, eventually, a mile a day in the pool? What if I lose the yellow-polka-dotted flippers and floaties?

{{{{{{Rinderwoman}}}}}

LA

LOL...I'm really not sure...I don't have the answer for you on that one...long muscles! HA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know that working with my coach back in college we did light weight, TONS OF Repetitions... I was in a size 8 and weighting 117...now I weight about 138 and am in a size 6 MOST DAYS!!! LOL

Prior to the infidelity diet, I was down to 121 and in a size 2/4...I like my 6/8...for the time being...I'm comfortable for the most part...you know having babies...those stretch marks bother me a WHOLE LOT...worth it, but bothersome...

I'm amazed at you!!! WHat the heck, keep the polkadots...good for the soul, I say!!!

Kinda like Christmas...I'm having fun shopping for the boys because "I" get to play with them too...got some REALLY COOL Nerf dart guns tonight while they were are religion...OH, NO...I was in a rush to get back across town and forgot to get me a new one...

LOL...That's another trip!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I only have an hour to play Santaette!!

Good to hear that there's forward motion with your son and his wife...I have faith...perhaps it was to bring them closer for all we know...you are ALL in my prayers!!

LA just wanted you to know I am thinking of you and your family.

((take care friend))