WSs mixing children with OPs is the most gut wrenching thing possible for BSs I believe. I know it was for me and my son was already very acquainted with OM.

There is no worse feeling for a parent.

You have to accept that when he has the children, you have no control.

This doesn't prevent you from stating your boundary that no contact with OW is permitted.

I recommend you just say "no".

No, no, no. Realizing you may not win.

Then, if your daughters do not object to being with him, you have to accept that he may try to introduce then to the skank.

You are smart enough to know that you should not try to manipulate your daughters into NOT agreeing to be with him.

But do not underestimate their ability to stick up for themselves. This could be just what the doctor ordered. Based on his accusation that you wrote the letter, he has an elevated expectation of what will transpire in an introduction. He expects, in his stupor, that everybody will be la te da wonderful. That won't happen.

Stalling is your other option.

You can explain that neither you nor your daughters are ready for this. You have plans. In the absence of a separation agreement, you have your daughters' schedule booked up for the next three weeks. Sorry. Any prior verbal agreements are null and void given this extra aspect that was not included in those verbal agreements. You cannot lose this one, IMHO. He has no grounds to demand access to your daughters in the absence of a separation agreement. He's the one who left, right?

Finally, you can do what female WSs sometimes do against innocent male BSs - get a restraining order under weak circumstances. All you have to do is file a claim that you fear for your daughters' safety if your H is permitted to have them around OW. Afterall, you don't have any knowledge of her other than the fact that she's an adulterer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

But get an attorney's help. I may be wrong about some of this.

WAT

Okay, BIIIIIG, DEEEEEEEEEEEEEP breaths. I took 3 just to be sure. I'm just so shocked that he would do this to them.

If he interrogates her, I think it would be child abuse too. I don't know what he will do/say at this point. Boy, OW sure brings out the best in him, doesnt' she?

I'm wondering if I should actually tell DDs about his response to the letter and that he wants to introduce them to OW or if I should let him do it and make him deal with their first time reactions. I also don't know when he is going to do this and I don't want them worrying about it until it does.

What a mess!

Oh, WAT...you give such great advice. And you help yank me out of his fantasy land that he tries to drag me into. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

One advantage for me right now that in this state, children 12 and older can choose who they live with and have a BIG say regarding arrangements for them. They see how I am acting and they see how he is acting....they'll make the right choice. I just really hate to see them put in that position. I also don't know what they would agree to so that they don't hurt his feelings. I guess I'll have to have faith on this one.

You're right, WAT. Having MY kids be around their sick relationship like everything is okay tears me up more than anything else.

If I try to limit his visits with them, I'm afraid he'll push for more custody..but then I remember the girls will have a say. And what judge in their right mind will think what he has done is okay and that children should be in the middle of it?

I also thought more about his comment that his lawyer told him not to pay ANYTHING so he would not be assuming liability. According to the lawyer I spoke to that is not assuming liability, it's honoring your obligations until an agreement has been reached. Then I consider what a judge will think of that, too....walking out on your family (and never really telling them you have done so), not buying school clothes or any other necessities, and not paying any bills for the welfare of your family. I am keeping every receipt and am documenting everything that I can. The only thing that he will have on me is the emails to his work...which had no threats, just feelings and facts. I wonder if some of his comments today weren't pay back for the exposure. It was a week ago yesterday that I did it and he may not be able to keep it in any longer.

I'm going to write my responses down by the phone so I can remember what they are: "I'm sorry you feel that way", etc etc. That way I can look and pick out the appropriate response and not let myself get dragged back in. Or I can just not answer the phone.

Thank you all so much. I let myself get all wound up again and I have to stop that.

The lawyer I saw this week was too mild....I think I'll look harder for a pitbull. I have my employer behind me, they have offered to pay my attorney fees so I can do what I need to do. They are like my second family and have been very supportive of me. I'll drag this out as long as I can.....I know WH can't afford it.

And if his attorney recommended not giving me any money, why did WH give me a check for his car insurance last night. I'm confused. I would drop his truck off our insurance except for the fact that if he got in a wreck, I would be partially responsible. GRRR.

Why should I have to be the only logical one?! Thanks for listening to my rant. Better to let my fingers do the yelling than my mouth where the children can hear!

Stay strong, Foxy. You're doing well.

Don't believe a word he says about what advice he got.

Hint: How can you tell when a WS is lying?

Their lips are moving.

Agree with getting a pit bull attorney.

In any legal document that gets drawn up regarding separation, make sure your intentions are clear > you DO NOT want this separation and you DO NOT want a divorce. Your desire is to preserve the marriage and the family, You're entering this agreement solely to stipulate responsibilities and obligations until the separation ends. Also, DO NOT agree that the separation is mutually agreed upon. DO NOT agree to any description of the need for the separation being anything other than your H's extramarital affair with OW. Include her name and her address. Still getting my drift?

WAT

Yup, WAT, I've got your drift. I am going to ask for recommendations for a good harda$$ attorney today...I need to get this in order right away. He's probably actually getting all his advice from OW.

Had a great weekend. Took my daughters camping with my sister and her family. I'll admit it, I was escaping so my WH could not have kids meet OW. We were back in the middle of the day on Labor Day and WH talked to daughters but must have been too busy to come pick them up and spend time with them. He told them he would "try" to take them one day this week. Which leaves only Tues, Wed, and Thur as he is leaving to go hunting for a week on Friday. What a guy.....

WAT, I've written you suggestions for a LSA down and will make sure these things are in the agreement.

Is there anything I can do when he Plan Bs me while I am still trying to Plan A? I invited him for dinner and that's when he told me he wanted to introduce the kids to OW, he never addressed the invitation to dinner but instead said he wanted to take the kids for that afternoon. Since he didn't ask specifically and give me times etc, we didn't wait around for his call. We went out of town for the weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm frustrated....it's so much easier not to be around him at all now. When I see or hear him I just get all twisted up again.

I do have absolute faith that his A will break up eventually... it's just a matter of what will happen after that. This man can hold a grudge FOREVER and he may never get over the exposure at work. Tough, as far as I'm concerned. It had to be done.

Thanks for all the help, hope your holiday was good.

Absolutely, don't wait for his schedule, but ya gotta be reasonable, IMHO. Give him fair opportunity to followup, but ya don't have to bend over backwards for him. This will very likely change when a separation agreement is in place. Then you'll have to follow whatever stipulations are in it. Of course, you get to help determine what those stipulations are.

What you can do while he's got his head up his [censored] (out of sight) is be a terrific Mom and work on any personal improvements.

When he contacts you again, be upbeat. "Sorry we missed hooking up for dinner - the offer is still open!"


Very normal. WSs are moving targets and BSs are naturally anxious whenever interaction takes place - especially if you're separated.

When you get a chance to speak with an attorney, bring up any suggestions you get here. The attorney obviously trumps any legal calls. But remember the attorney is not also a marriage counselor. Unless there are legal reasons not to do so, stick with your own good sense and our advice on that stuff.

My holiday was very nice, thanks. I'm a little sore this morning from yard work yesterday. Nothing like labor on Labor Day.

WAT

Just an update on MIL. She has not attempted to contact DD13 or DD12 since the day I tried to talk to her. I have told DDs that they can call her anytime but they have chosen not to. DD13 and MIL have always been VERY close.

I've told them the same thing about WH. I am not going to remind them to call him or ask if they want to, but they are welcome to do it anytime they feel like talking to him. They have also chosen not to call him, they talk to him when he calls but they don't contact him first. I wonder if he even notices, or if he is just to busy with his new family to care?

I would take this a step further ... get the kids talking to a counselor

not optional at ages 12 & 13

mandatory ....according to YOU, the functional parent in charge!

Pep

ditto Pep


I agree.

Just be ready to hear from MIL and your H that you're preventing them from calling. It's all your fault.

When this accusation comes, ignore it. Do not try to defend yourself - you'll just feed their conclusions. Ignore it, knowing you're right. Eventualy this accusation may make its way to your daughters and they'll know the truth as well.

JMHO

WAT

You're right, WAT. I'm sure that is exactly what is going to happen. I think he doesn't want to believe that the letter came from DD13 or that both of them are making the decision not to call him. And he has to blame it on me because he certainly isn't going to blame it on his own actions since his actions "aren't wrong" . So much for "when they see me be happy, they'll be happy".

Well, something has WH wound up today. Maybe things aren't rosy in paradise?

WH called to say he wanted the kids tonight and that he would pick them up at my office at 5. I said no, I won't be here. For the last 3 years I've had Wednesday afternoons off. He said "Oh, yeah, I forgot about that." Then he wanted to pick them up after school. I said no, we have plans (I am looking at getting them their own cell phones and we are gathering info today) and that he could call me when he got off work and he could have them then. I told him they had to be home by 8 for homework, chores, etc. He said he'd "try" to get them home. I told him they also need some recovery time before they go to bed. That made him mad. He said "yeah, right, because I'm so horrible". I told him he didn't realize what they went through after seeing/talking to him. The tears and the upset. And do you know what he had the gall to say to me?! What about me and all the pain I am going through? GRRRR! I also told him NOT to introduce them to OW, I was not ready and they were not ready. He said he wasn't planning on it. Like I believe a word he says. I just need to let him keep digging his own hole and burying himself with his daughters and any judge in the land.

I'll be sure to cry a tear or two for him. Oh wait, I think there might be a tear in my beer right now! What an idiot...still all about him.

He also made some comment about taking the kids off my hands after I told him how upset they were. That's how much he is thinking of their well-being. Yeah, drag them away from their mother who has only done right by them and plop them into your sick little situation and they won't be upset then. Nope, I didn't say it....just thought it.

Why am I doing this again?

After WH called and our discussion didn't go so well. He is SO angry. I sent him this email:

If it was so important for you to see the girls this weekend, why didn't you come get them Monday afternoon? I told them you left messages over the weekend and they could call you. They chose not to. I am not keeping them from calling you. Your relationship with them is in your hands. I don't tell them to call you and I don't tell them not to, you are doing all the damage yourself.

I refuse to sit by the phone to wait for your call for every little nano-second you may have to spare. We are continuing with our lives.......I am raising happy, healthy, smart, and beautiful girls. In spite of what you have done to us.

I want to make this work and stop the damage to DD13 and DD12. I am here for you, WS, even in your anger.

BS

I wish I could think of these things when I am actaully on the phone and not feel like I constantly have to defend my actions. I know what I'm doing, my girls know what I'm doing. That should be enough. But for some reason I still want him to believe that I'm a good person. But he is trying to justify his reasons for the A. I just feel like I'm in a no win situation right now.

But aside from my relationship with WS, my life is going pretty good. I have GREAT intelligent daughters, a great job, family support as well as employer/co-worker support, my own self improvement. Aside from WH, I feel very good about my life and who I am as a person. I have to hang onto that and not let myself get dragged in the chaos of who he has become.

Yep. An alien WS. Total delusion.

OK, keep this statement he made in mind. Ready?

You wrote to him:


Stop trying to treat him as a human. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You cannot get thru to him with these "directions".

IF he was human, this stuff would make sense to him. He's not so it won't.

Try this next time he complains about his pain >

Him: What about me and all the pain I am going through?

You: I'm so sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What kind of pain ARE you going through?

Him: blah, blah, blah

You: How do you think we can fix that?

Get my drift?

WAT

WAT, can you come walk me through the next couple of months? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I thought I was supposed to be treating him like a human right now because I am supposed to be the soft place to land at the end of this. How will he know I care if I don't tell him so? He won't let me show him. I also try to 180 and continue on with life without him. You are so correct, he is delusional and I have to stop wasting my breath.

I do get your drift, though, about turning it back on him. It's just hard to think that fast when I am so flabbergasted with the continued selfishness and his poor me act. It just shocks me that those kind of things come out of his mouth.

I can't believe I have been going through this for such a short amount of time...it seems like FOREVER.

I paid the retainer and picked up the packet from the lawyers to go through. No more procrastination on my end. If he is going to threaten to "take the kids off my hands" and get them home whenever he gets around to it, I have to take quick, decisive action.

And the added bonus is he will be forced to spend the money on a lawyer....and less setting up house with OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You've got to find the silver lining where you can.

Oh, you can tell him you care. Just don't try to hold up a mirror in front of his face - yet.

JMHO

WAT

ditto WAT

WH brought kids home at 8:10 last night. Which is ok since he brought the dog food I requested (I had told him he needs to take the dog but he has not done so yet, the least he can do is buy food).

After he left, DD13 told me all the fun stuff they did and the nice dinner they went to. She also said he talked to her about the letter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but didn't grill her. Just asked if she had any questions...which she did not. He also asked if they would want to spend the night at his house sometimes. DD13 said I don't know and DD12 said yeah, I guess. He said first they would have to meet OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But he did not introduce them last night and didn't say when he would. He had told me when he picked them up that he was going to talk to them about a schedule to see them and then he and I would talk. DD13 said he kept asking them what they knew...all they would say is "I don't know". So he is still trying to hide the truth from them...only defending what he thinks they already know. I told him they know everything but I guess he is not taking my word for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yesterday on the phone in a very nasty tone he told me the truth was going to come out. I said it already has. He said "about EVERYTHING." I asked what he was talking about and he just kept repeating EVERYTHING is going to come out, even about me (BS). I said "like what". Wouldn't say. I have nothing to hide.

Tonight was his last evening with them.....he is going hunting for a week and a half. Higher priorities once again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> By then I'll have my sep agreement ready for him.

It is said on this website and in SH books that affairs usually end in 6 months - 2 years. What is the starting time for that? When they start seeing each other, after d-day, or after exposure? I know specific dates can't be given but some kind of an idea would help. Am I 3 months into this (when they started & ILYBNILWY), or 2 months (admitted EA), or 3 weeks (found out depth of A and exposed)? Wow?! Really only 3 weeks...it seems like eternity! I've printed the post about the lighthouse and intend on reading it every morning to remind myself of my goals.

I'm looking for that light at the end of the tunnel and I'm praying it isn't the train coming!

What this means is that he has his own version of events and history and by golly he's gonna make sure everyone knows it.

Typical and necessary WS blame shifting and revisionist history.

Don't sweat this unless you have some skeletons in the closet he knows about.

Even if you don't, you do now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I became an abusive husband. Who knows what else? Oh - how could I forget? - I hid money that could otherwise have been spent on my son's cancer treatments. I swear I am not making this up. I became an instant Ogre to everyone on my WS's side of the family.

DO NOT sweat this. See the desperation he is having just to do something like this.

JMHO

WAT

Thanks, WAT. Nope, no skeletons in my closet except for the ones he is going to make up. An advantage for me is that I have a large extended family..cousins, aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers, grandfather, etc. Almost all living in this town and the ones that don't, I am in contact with often by phone. WH has only his mother and sister in town and he does not get along with his sister. He does have a couple of friends but no one he would talk to about his situation. Guess he will have to lean on OW pretty heavily. WH has always been a part of my family and been extremely close with a few members. He has lost all of that now.

He can tell his mother, co-workers, and OW whatever he wants about me. I don't give a rip what any of them think. I just worry about what he says to my daughters. But there is not much I can do about that other than continue to be the best mom I can and answer their questions if they have any.

Today is another day to be the best person I can be.

Any answers to this:

It is said on this website and in SH books that affairs usually end in 6 months - 2 years. What is the starting time for that? When they start seeing each other, after d-day, or after exposure? I know specific dates can't be given but some kind of an idea would help. Am I 3 months into this (when they started & ILYBNILWY), or 2 months (admitted EA), or 3 weeks (found out depth of A and exposed)?