Some new, somewhat interesting things happened today. I had my first appt. with shrink. It wasn't exactly what I expected, but not horrible either. The session was short, 30 minutes, and mostly background of sitch right now. That part I expected. Received meds for sleeping and depression. Also being sent for EKG and blood work. Have heart condition she wants to check on. Got a bit of a shock to find out that the not sleeping could cause a heart attack. Didn't know that. I go again in two weeks.

On way to and from appt went by OW's place. He wasn't there on way but was on the way back. So was a moving truck. She starts a new job teaching community college 90 miles away in 3 weeks. Could she be actually moving? WEnt by a couple more times to see if I could get a clue if it was her going out or someone going in. NOt getting my hopes up too much even if it is her going out, knowing it doesn't guarnatee WS stopping contact. Will make face to face more difficult as he's said, though. Hoping that means she'll have no need for him again sooner as she's done in the past and he'll come to senses.

Next thing to consider and don't know where to find info on this easily is how to handle his hopeful return. I've been reading many books, just finished a good one called When The One You Love Wants To Leave. Espouses many of the things found through MB and talked more about when WS leave for OW than other books I've read. It also discusses that when WS wants to come home discussion is needed on motivations and what will take place/ ALso that he demonstrates NC for a consistent period of time. But how do I know if he has other than if he gives me access to his cell phone that he refused to weeks ago?

He called this morning. I almost didn't answer the phone. Just said hello. He wanted to let me know how much the eye apt he went to was for the checkbook, he could have emailed that on Tuesday when he returned to work, and wanted to talk to kids. So besides hello from me he got an ok and that was all. Working very hard to maintain my NC statement with the exception of the kids. He talked to oldest son quite a bit. I'm glad b/c in the time he's been gone he hasn't called them, just waited for when he sees them. But I feel mostly he did b/c he's taking them to the zoo and wanted the wagon cleaned out. When middle son was talking to him, son said he thought mom wanted to talk to him. I told him I didn't.

In my heart of hopes I hoped part of thaat was to have a chance to talk to me or hear myvoice. Maybe he misses me. A website he visits frquently at work shows that several days this week he's gotten to work as early as an hour early. He makes frequent posts on a debate site. But then again, he could be posting from her computer if she has one. So I checked today for any posts since I know he's there. His habit at home was to post after showering in the am before leaving for work. If there are any from the weekend or Monday when I know he's off, then I figure it isn't from getting to work early b/c he can't sleep or realistically b/c he stayed at her place.

I really want to know how long he's been doing this, staying over since moving into sister's, joke. I know it won't change much, but feel like I need the info. I need to know how long he's been lying this time. I point blank asked him but got no response from the email other than his system at work had gone out and he didn't get it till the next morning. So I'd know he wasn't ignoring me. I didn't reask the question. Decided to go dark and figure I know the answer to part of that, the part if he's actually sleeping with her. I guess I'll hope fr the rest if he comes back.

When/if he does ask to come back and work on us, I want to go to counseling as a couple. He's said he's consider before, but I'm also thinking of asking him for STD testing report. What other things should I be expecting/asking for? HOw do I decipher if it's to work on us or b/c he's lonely now that she's (hopefully) moved? How do we begin to rebuild? I want to more than anything, but realize the fight and difficulty it will be for a long time. Trust to say at the least will be most difficult. If I do let him back, should he stay in another room?

Am I thinking about this too soon?

if you are truly ready and trying to do Plan B, you've got to stop thinking about him and what he's thinking or doing.

I'm trying. I know you're right, but it's still so new and so hard. He's been the major part of my life for 15 years, buy best friend, my husband, my lover, my pain in the [censored]. I know if/when he returns there's going to be a great deal and it's going to be a long haul with no guarantee that we'll survive it. I'm trying to remain dark. Hopefully once I start my ADs tomorrow it will be easier.

Thanks for the support and advice. If my sessions with shrink are like yesterday, this place is a million times better for advice and listening to what's on my mind and troubling me. Advice, encouragement, a good smack in the face with reality when needed. I get it here and would have a harder time without it.

Began my ADs yesterday. What a kick! It felt almost like I'd had a couple of drinks, relaxed, giggly, actually enjoying myself for a couple of hours shopping with my mother without thinking aobut him the entire time. I hope that they will help me with making better decisions. When WH brought kids back last night from a day together, I stayed in other room and totally avoided. Best part was it didn't bother me anywhere near as much as when they left. Then I had been in tears and rather distraught for about half an hour. After one day of ADs, it was certainly easier to think about the sitch without breaking down at the first thought. I hope they do help me with staying dark.

Might have been fog talk, but he wrote note when he left the kids saying how they had been. Said he'd talk to me Tuesday, which means regarding visiting kids on email, and then he added "would like to talk to you anyway." I know it's probably fog talk and even if it is or isn't and he is missing me, then I can stick it out even longer for him to see what he's lost or could lose for good. Everything about the sitch since d day seems to have gone in much too quick a timeframe, so I'm trying to make a promise to myself and keep it that I won't let him just walk back in after a couple of weeks of this. Must be certain and have all things needed before I let him. I do hope that he will want to, though.

Angie you are not alone in that boat, we have a lot of things in commun. I have been with my husband 20 years, married 17 years. I discover A last July with a friend and neighbor. We moved from that place to try to recover but he never quit the communication with her and it still going on. I am a grade 2 teacher, here in Canada the class is starting tomorrow and I am afraid of not being able to handle 20 kids. Last year I was off work for 2 months and after he made me believe that thing was going better and that he left her but it was just lie always lie. I am lost, my chest hurt so much and my heart. He is still with me but one feet is in the door. We have a rental house that is empty and he is thinking of moving there and it five doors down to op. The A is beiig going on for 5 years. I have 2 Kids 8 1nd 10 years old. and my birthays was in august I turn 40 and my husbad 47. I hope you will see that message, I dont have any family here and only one friend. It is so hard. I will leave you my own E-mail if you like to gf.mercier@rogers.com
we can share our pain.

Angie ---
A lot of WS think that they can manipulate events and keep everyone "happy." Or at least if they don't see or know about your pain, they delude themselves into believing that they aren't destroying anyone over this. The "amicable divorce"....

I think you want to convey the message to him that you are not going to be friends later. Don't be afraid to be angry with him....don't be afraid for him to know it. When he starts to send chatty little notes or e-mails -- it should be met with a cold short response.

He wants to talk to you? Nope -- not until he has met your conditions in your Plan B letter. Just resend the letter with your conditions. (Thats why I wanted to see your letter, so we can advise you better....)

Hopefully your letter said not to contact you until he is prepared to NEVER see or communicate with OW again, by sending he a letter that you approve and mail.

What are your additional conditions?
Access to all passwords?
Counseling with Jennifer?
Full disclosure of affair and answering all your questions?

This is an exercise for you -- to really think about what kind of boundries you want for yourself when he comes back. Don't jump too quickly -- make him work for it.

AND DON'T BE FRIENDLY IN PLAN B!!!!!

Sounds like you did just great yesterday! And I am so glad you got the Anti-depressant! It really will help to even out your moods, and think clearly!

(((HUGS angie!)))

Fellbad, so sorry for your pain as well. How have you held it together so long?

Lexxxy, I've made that committment to myself to follow through on the letter. I'm a bit embarassed to post entire letter here since it was greatly a rehash of the one from the book. When I thought about what I wanted to say, the tone and principles fit well. I told him that I wanted to work on our marriage, to fix that which I was responsible for in creating the environment that made A possible. I said that after discovering this latest lie, about staying at her house when he had told me he hadn't and wouldn't have any phycial contact with her and do anything that would make things that much more difficult for us, that I couldn't see him or talk to him until he cut off all contact with her and went through the suggestions we had discussed, the NC letter, complete honesty and disclosure, etc. to ensure that contact wouldn't occur and that there would be no need for us to ever separate again.

I had also said that we would communicate about the kids through an agreed third party but found that to be a hinderence and decided that the email would suffice. Except for the first day after, I haven't had any conversation with him by email or phone. He called again today and I handed the phone to my son to answer, never said a word to him.

This is the second time in 3 days he's called the boys. All since my Nc with him. Very interesting considering that since we separated 5 weeks ago he had never called to talk to them. I do plan on keeping communication to the barest, simplest need about the kids. I'm not going to discuss open house for them, already having told them that it's daddy's night and we already know their teachers anyway since I work with them. I plan on contacting for the purpose of him taking the boys for Saturday for a couple of hours this week for a bridal shower and next for my shrink appt. But I don't plan on telling him why.

I fully expect to get some comments/email about what I did while he had the kids yesterday. I took the couch out and burned it, it was 15 years old, got new curtains and did away with some other very old furniture. I have pledged to myself that I won't respond past a thank you if that when he emails something. I also plan on having my father go with me sometime to trade in my vehicle on something larger and affordable. All this without discussing it with him.

One less than great thing today. Even on AD's I found myself rather distraught today. His less than favored sister was over and she was well meaning, I guess, but she said that FIL had reamed out WH about everything. Told him to grow some balls and tell the boys what was going on. Supposedly WS told FIL that they were too young to know what a D was, even though they have talked about SIL on-going D. It was all I could do till she finally got the hint and left.

Does this mean that he's thinking about one? Hard to say since things that come from FIL, especially through SIL aren't always what they are relayed as. Still, made me lose some of the confidence, strength that what I am doing would yield the desired results.

I angie I admiring you a lot. Me it the samething he give me some hope in one side and some days he want to leave. But I am not strong enough to tell him to leave. I just think about it and I see my kids crying but I know it coming espacialy now is got the renting house empty so he can move. And she is always there won't leave him alone. He told me he ask her not to call him for now but doesn't tell her it over. He said he tried yes for 1 week. Do you think it really trying? And he say that he is all mix up, he doesn't know what he want anymore. But he is not in love with me anymore bla... bla ... I am so tired of fighting and I am so afraid to be alone maybe because I was 19 went I met him and I never been by myself. It was my fist day back to work today. It is hard to concentrate when you think about one thing. I hate my self to let him treating me like that.
How is your day and I many days a week your husband get the Kids??

fellbad,
my WH gets the kids about 3 days a week. If you haven't looked into some medication to help, I just started and it has helped alot. I fully understand how you feel about him treating you so badly.

The best thing you can try to do is concentrate on something else. Work hard, enjoy kids, and try a new hair style? I did tonight, got my hair cut in a way I never tried before. Was up for something new. Have been making changes around the house too. He's not here to complain or make comments, so I do what I like to it.

Find some kind of help and continue here. It's making a world of differentce. Update to come from me here.

OK All! I'm going to be looking for more info here and in the other topics, but new development tonight. WH has written several times about wanting to talk to me. I ignored it. Today he asked again in emails with details about kids, I ignored it. then he asked point blank. I asked if it was something in particular or in general. He said it was both and he wanted to talk Thursday when he has the kids and I return home.

I decided I didn't want to wait for whatever bad news or such it might be. I went home early tonight when he had the kids instead of waiting for him to leave as we've done the last week and a half.

Here's the scoop. It sounds like he wants to start working on moving forward with us, but he feels that in addition to the letter of NC, the openess, transparency of his life, honesty, that there is more to consider. He feels he needs to be fully open and disclse everything that has gone on. He finally confirmed that he has slept with her and that it was after he promised me after d day that he wouldn't do anything else to jeopardize our chances. Even since my letter last week he has slept with her. He says that this has been on his mind constantly, he's not just out having fun, and also says that having to give her up will be like a punishment that he deserves for hurting me so badly. I'm a punishment, he has to give her up and feel the pain like I've gone through and come back to me, if I still want him after his full disclosure.

Am I wrong or does it sound like he's asking me to make a decision for him? That's what I told him. That if I don't say I still want to work things out, he won't say good-bye to her?! He says that he can't wholeheartedly say that he can cut her out of his life. I said that if he can't do so, we're wasting our time.

He wants to discuss it more on Thursday still, b/c he wants us to have more time, we weren't able to spend much doing so tonight. I don't know what to say or think. I asked about testing for STD's, he rolled his eyes, she's to reserved to be promiscuous I asked. He agreed to MC and although said he would go into it skeptical, he would do it.

I don't know what to do. I know I'm not going to let him move back. I told him I don't know how I can ever trust him again. I reminded him that when he promised to keep it in his pants, that if he didn't I didn't know if we could be there for him. I feel very much like he's testing the waters to see what's here for him. I know there's no guarantee that I can get over this. I still want to try, but I'm not convinced that he's ready to try. It sounds half hearted and a little insincere. A large part of his motivation for this is b/c he knows how much he's hurt me, he thinks he knows HA, and that he wants to help me not to hurt anymore.

He says she and he have discussed the ending of their relationship and that I should also consider the impact and influence she has on the decisions I make. I know, I don't get that one.

I don't know what to think .

"too reserved to be promiscuous" but screwing another woman's husband? Do the wayward ever hear what they are saying?

My WH is a conflict avoider. He would say what he thought others wanted to hear. So, he agreed to MC but never did anything the MC suggested.

He also would flip things around so as not to be "at fault." One of his ways was to "apologize" by saying "I'm sorry if what I did hurt you." I told him that was a "blaming me" apology. It wasn't what he did that was hurtful, it was that I felt hurt.

I do think your WH is trying to hedge his bets. If you won't agree that you want to work on things before he tells you all the details-then he won't give up the "reserved" home wrecker.

I don't really have any advice on what to do now. Based on his last statement I will say the fog is still very thick and he wants to keep eating cake.

Well, actually, I'm the one that made the promiscuous comment. But still, I don't know what to have him do or how to know he's serious about working on us. I've been up on and off and I swear I've been thinking about it in my sleep, that he's not ready to cut her out. When he left I told him try not to sleep with her again. I bet he will. He'll probably want that one last time with her. If he's serious about it tomorrow night when we talk, and I suspect he's not, I think I'll say then that he needs to write the letter that night and begin the NC right then and there. I don't think he will. I think that given time I can forget about the A and all that went with it enough to find happiness with him. I'm not sure he can say the same.

Sorry I misunderstood.

I think you will have to wait to see if his actions show he is serious. That would be NC, and actually doing the things needed in MC and at home to repair the damage. I too think the A can be forgiven. But it takes work.

My WH would tell the counselor that he wanted our M to work and he even said he was willing to do whatever it took.

But he didn't do anything. He wasn't willing to do the work to clean up the mess he made. I was doing what I needed to, IC and working on myself. I accepted the things I had contributed to the deterioration of our M. But, it was like trying to applaud with one hand. Doesn't work.

Wait and see and guard your heart. Hang in there.

I Angie, it the same here, my H went to see a therapist for the third times yesterday but we did't talk about it. She is the one who told him to move and to cut contact from me and the OP to fin out what he really want. But I don't think he woud be able with OP. I know he is here because of the kids but he doesn't do nothing to help in our situation. It like i am waiting that he leave and theres nothing I cant do to make him change is mins I feel so helpless. He is destroying everything for that women. Sometimes I am so angry. I did start some medication but I didn't see any change , The doctor told me it can take 3 to 4 weeks before i could feel the effect. To try to make myself busy it really hard. I like to come here because I know there people who is dealing with the same pain. Give me some news and how is your kids with that situation? I am really worried for my kids they are so close from there dad and because of that I dont get it that he want to be just a part time father?He sais they will adjust, no they want they will always missing something in their life. It make me so sad, so sad.
talk to you later, I have to go make supper

The kids are doing ok for the most part. There doesn't seem to be too much obvious bothering them, but I'm sure it is. They often say they miss him and want him to come home. One night/day after being with him, the oldest commented that he forgot to tell daddy they wanted him to come home to stay. That gives me the feeling they must say something to him aboutit almost everytime if they can remember. My heart hurts for them as well, although before my NC letter, when he was here they didn't always pay much attention to his being here. It was always when he was gone and when he was leaving. He even commented the first time he visited after moving out that they didn't seem to notice he was there and that troubled him.

I'm sure seeing me cry doesn't help them much. I try very hard, and it's been easier with the AD's, not to do so in front of them. They usually still ask why I'm sad or what's wrong, or they comment that they miss daddy too. They are such dears that I couldn't make it through this pain at all without knowing I was doing what was best for them and for myself.

WH is supposed to come tomorrow night after kids' open house at school to discuss his concerns and such for reconciliation. I think I can eventually get over the idea of the A and thinking about them together. The lying and trust issues are going to be greater. I'm still not certain he's ready to try NC, but I guess I'll cross that bridge tomorrow when he makes his case. Hoping to start MC soon if there seems to be hope. If not, I guess I'm back to plan B. Or should I return to plan A and show him this world is better? Not certain what I should do.

So we had the talk. Lots of it was very promising, but as I suspected, he's not ready to begin R and NC. So, I told him I had to go back to my own no contact. That I just can't do it, I deserve better, we deserve better. When he left he kissed me on the cheek twice and said he'd see me later. I replied with all full implications, I know it wasn't lost on him, that I hoped so. But I know he knows I'm not going to see him and only talk through email when it's about the kids.

So, we had a nice night for a while. Dinner together, went to the kids open houses, had nice conversations and laughs. But it'll be a memory now. Thank the pharmacutical gods for AD's or I'd really be a mess right now. I'm still not good, heart is breaking, but I'm at least not crying to the point of throwing up. That's something.

I'm having a tough day today. Thinking about all the little things he's missing around here with the kids and me. I fought and won not to go see if he spent the night at OW's. Was proud of myself for that. I find that I'm sleeping much more, even napping during the day on the weekends. I miss him terribly, and sleeping takes away the thoughts. Glad to be doing it without the help of meds for that. I think the AD's have made sleep easier too.

I'm interested in any stories of hope. I still long for my husband to come home and give up OW. I think there is a big part of him that wants to but the other part fights him and keeps him from doing so. I don't think he has faith in himself to keep NC, or be ready for it. So any stories that can help me keep my faith would be appreciated.

Make no mistake, my eyes are still pretty open. I know that this saga with OW has a 20 yr history for him and that it won't be easy if possible for him to give up this opportunity as he has called it so many times. I just hope and pray things will work out.

My newest plan for me, and my kids, Nov. 27th is our anniversary. I'm thinking about what we, or just I, can do if we're still seperated to help me not think as much about the day and avoid it becoming a self-pity day.

Other question for advice, how to handle parent teacher conferences when in Plan B.

are conferences something he would have participated in before?
if not, nothing new -- handle it yourself. Inform him if asked.
if he normally does participate, I would still handle it yourself but inform him on date/time if asked.
Chances are he won't show. Too self-absorbed at this time.

You need to stop giving him an Angie-Fix. You have an intermediary for child info -- use them.

Did you realize that your nice dinner with him will PROLONG his affair? He now got some needs met by you. He'll be able to go a little longer. Plus he's checking to make sure you're still available, that he hasn't pushed you too far. Let him wonder -- its part of the strategy.

When he starts to realize you're not gonna be "friends", that someday there might be another man raising his children, that Angie's not gonna wait forever -- thats when Plan B works.

Hey Lexxxy! He would have participated in them anyway, except for maybe the one I had to schedule during the day. He knows when they both are and I don't know if he'll come or not. I'm doing my best to not give him a fix, but agree that he got one last week with open house. I could tell he enjoyed being with me/us again, at least to a certain extent. Even when we were alone to discuss us as he wanted and it didn't go the way I hoped. I went back into plan B and haven't spoken to him since.

He's begun calling the kids again when it's not his night. I like to think it's his way of having some kind of contact with me and because he realizes how much he's missing daily with the kids. I realize the fix he got will probably prolong things. I'm trying to concentrate on me, my kids, and my jobs, teaching and the others involved with it.

I'm sure he probably thinks I am still available to him, and he was hedging his bets, testing the waters, whatever you want to call it. I'm going as dark as possible. I figure if he does show up to conferences, I will sit through them as I normally would and not talk to him afterwards, just be on my way. The morning one I won't be able to anyway since I have my own to rush off too. If asked or approached afterwards I can simply say, "sorry, I have my own to get to." and leave.

thanks for your advice. It's this site that gives me the most of that and hope, encouragement, etc. I worry about talking to my family and friends about it for fear they will tire of it quickly. I don't want to be the burden or one that's always a downer. So I try each day not to bring it up, hard as it is.

If you absolutely can't avoid him at conferences, make sure you are looking your best. Be aloof, mysterious. Do not be overly friendly.

These WS think they can leave their family and everyone is going to be friendly about it. The reality is, you're going to be angry. You're not going to be friends. And he needs to see that he's losing.

Thats why you end Plan A with a great vision of you and what you can do for him. When you take it all away, he misses it and wants it. Meanwhile, OW has to pick up the slack, can't do it, sees him pining for you, and LB's the heck out of him.

You can do it Angie! You're doing great!