I disagree wholeheartedly with this line of thinking CN and I'm certain that many adoptive parents and adopted children will too...

I am not adopted and our own daughter happens to be mine and Mr. W's genetically, however, I don't believe for one second that adopted children or adoptive parents love any less than Mr. W and I do...

JMVHO...

Mrs. W

Mrs.

Good for you, your opinion are your own, just as mine are my own.

I stand by my statements.

There isn't another man on this planet that could love my kids more than I do. I am their father, I am their daddy, and I am blessed to have the opportunity to share their lives . . .

I've held many babies in my life, when I held my son and looked into his eyes, I was lost . . . he had me. This is what I am talking about. I'm not trying to diminsh adoptive parents . . . or question how they feel about their kids. I stating how I feel about my kids.

Ok CN, but FWIW, your position certainly seems to diminish adoptive parents and how they feel about their children...My guess is that adoptive parents felt the same when they looked into the eyes of their child(ren)...The child(ren) that they so desperately wanted that they endured much to even have that opportunity to hold them at all...Again, JMVHO...

Mrs. W

CN... here's a news flash. You don't need a genetic link to have a wonderful parnet/child relationship.

My brother is my dad's child from his first marriage. Upon divorcing his first W (following the birth of a second child that was not his) he got custody of my brother. Then he met my mom and married her. She adopted my brother.

That is why I call him my brother and not my half-brother.

My mom loves my brother as much as she loves her own biological daughters.

I also have a friend who is raising a stepdaughter like she is his own. Her daddy left the picture when she was an infant and my friend loves this young lady with all his heart.

To say that no other person on earth except the genetic parent has "such a vested interest to see my kids matriculate to adulthood as kind and decent human beings" is a wee bit of a generalization. There are all kinds of step parents and adopted parents out there who are loving and raising kids as if they were their own birth kids.

[color:"red"] Did you show the email to your husband? [/color]

Pep

CN-

Case in point...I've got four kids...two sets of twins actually.

In truth, my oldest set are my wife's kids from her previous marriage. He left her when they were 3 mos. old, and they were long divorced way before I ever met her.

They were 13 mos. old when I met her. He didn't make any attempt to contact them until they were 12, and he 'out of the blue' decided to have them do their visitation. I contacted him myself and told him that there was no way I was going to accept his request that they live with him...a COMPLETE STRANGER to them. I suggested he contact a lawyer, as I was fully intending to take it that far.

So...just because you physically fathered the children does NOT make you their dad.

My kids...the oldest ones...grew up knowing the full truth of the situation...how my wife met, that they had another person who was their "father". Not once...not even now that they're almost 21, have they wanted anything to do with him. Not that we've got hard feelings against him...but that he's NOT THEIR DAD. I AM.

Sure, they're a 'genetic link'. But does that give the person who fathered them the right to INSIST on being in their lives? Nope. Not according to the law of most states, nor does it determine who they are. NO ONE who has met my kids would believe that the oldest set aren't physically mine too.

In this case, he had sex with a married woman. It resulted in a child. That doesn't give him rights to anything...unless SHE gives him those rights. He hasn't EARNED anything.

My wife's favorite saying has always been the one..."Any man can be a father...but it takes someone special to be a DADDY.".

CN, I could not agree with you more.

Mr & Mrs W... I agree that the existing children of that M should not be torn from their father. The best solution in my yes would be for the new baby to be given to the father and that he gets to raise that child with full custody.

Mr. Becca is the sad victim here along with the baby. He should not pay for her sins any longer. The surest way to insure NC is for Mrs. Becca to give up custody to the father and leave it at that. Contrary to what Owl will have you believe Becca, your statements about paternity and the evolving laws will most likely result in some form of visitation being given to this father.

Everybody here is spouting off about how sperm doesn't make a father... well, you guys are the ONLY ones reducing this man to a sperm donor. He wants to be a father and from what Becca says about him, it sounds like he would make a damn good one. And I hope no one here is missing that Becca has suggested leaving her H, taking his children and moving them 100 miles away! Does this sound like a mother that has ANY of her childrens best interest at heart.

Becca, do the right thing... it will be heart breaking... but give this child to his father and let them live a life free of this mess.

MEDC-

I agree that the concept of leaving her H for this guy is definitely NOT the way to go.

But at the same time...there's no evidence that this guy is any better. He was the one who was knowingly WITH a married woman to begin with.

What makes HIM any better?

IMHO, the true "hero" here is the guy who's willing to be the dad regardless of true paternity. Sounds like the prime candidate for the real parent to me...even by the standards you use in your description of her position.

What makes him better? well, the PA started after she told the OM that she was seperated.
He wants to see his child and was willing to be married to her if she in fact got divorced.
He is not threatening to take children away from their parent like she is doing to her H.
She broke vows to her H and family. He was wrong for what he did... but remember, she was the one that vowed to be true to her H and family. On the scale of wrong here.. he betrayed his morals and ethics... she did that and betrayed her family! And now she is considering doing it again by taking the children from their father.

IMHO, that is what makes him a better choice!

I agree with this...This is what Noodle outlined earlier in this thread and spoke of as being a form of sacrificial love...

Mr. McBecca is indeed the hero in all of this, and one that I believe would make a wonderful Daddy for this precious baby...

Mrs. W

And any woman can be a mom.... but it takes someone special to me a mother!

She is acting so much less than special right now even for the children she already has. Really, a baby with OM and threatening the BH with taking his children 100 miles away so she can be closer to the OM! She has already failed at the most important job she will ever have! Maybe it is in the child's best interest to be given a real shot with his father.

Becca, I know this stuff comes across as harsh... I really am invested in this topic... but know that you have the ability to do what is right by your baby. Put him first in your heart and let him see his dad. They both deserve that chance.

There are many people here on MB, myself included, that put on the MB blinders when it comes to infidelity. But when a child is involved, it is time to remove those and deal with the issues that you have created. You cannot repair this to a perfect solution... that is a given. But finding a way to do the most right thing by your child and his dad is what is right. By your posts, I think you already get that. Every child has a right to know his dad & mom. Do not reduce that right as has been suggested here. Be smart... protect your children... but do the right thing.

So, Becca, you think that in order to not deprive the OM of his daughter, the solution is to deprive your BH of HIS children?

Well, it's good to know that the OM doesn't have any really bad qualities other than messing around with a married woman. It's good to know that he has family support, in case he wants to dump your daughter off while he goes and maybe messes around with another married woman.

Oh, wait! You're planning to move back so HE can have his daughter! How nice! Then he won't need his family support, 'cuz you'll be there!

So, I guess that in your eyes, this is a win-win situation.

You get to be with OM and your children, the OM gets to be with you and his children, PLUS your BH's children, while your BH, who did NOTHING WRONG, gets left behind and all alone in the new state, except for when he gets to see his own children, who will be raised by you and the man who had not business fathering their sister.

Sounds like Mr. McBecca is getting "raped" once again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

IMHO, Becca, what you should do, if you insist on moving back to be with OM so he can be your baby's "daddy", is to leave your older children with THEIR father, so they can grow up to know right from wrong and to learn from his example what kind of man THEY should marry.

McBecca...

You have the opportunity before you to regain your integrity by returning FULLY to the one you took vows to before God, YOUR HUSBAND, Mr. McBecca...The OM is NOT the answer in all of this...Regardless of OC...Your vows to your husband before God were FORSAKING ALL OTHERS...

Does your husband know of yesterday's email?

Mrs. W

>And changing your mind during this counts as no choice.

I agree with Owl. Mommy up. Make a choice. Stick to it.

Period.

You're ripping out everyone's hearts by not sticking to your choices (NC).

Having had my heart ripped out and then stomped on because NC was broken, I'm speaking from experience.

Waffling back and forth is not gonna work here.

and for the record...no matter what you decide, ALL the children and MrB will ALWAYS PAY FOR THIS....there is no get outta he11 free card for them...there is nothing that will make it better or easier....there will always be a slice of your hurt pie on their plates...the only question is how big a slice are you gonna dish up to them.

My kids will always have to deal with this, it didn't matter if I stayed with my FWH or I left him...that hurt pie will always be there.

And I will always have to deal with it the best I can.

Wow...please mark it down on the calendars...I've got some people agreeing with me here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> There must be something in the air! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And I understand MEDC's thoughts...I just don't completely agree with them. I'm willing to bet MEDC feels much along those same lines about my view as well.

Becca,

Do you see the fog in what you write? It’s a pea-souper for sure. No wonder you are having trouble navigating the shoals.

For example:

“OM is a single person, but does not live the kind of live described here, no drugs, no alcohol, no hobbies other than music. He is ready to raise her and has asked me several times if I would be interested in giving him full custody of her. He has an extended family willing to support him and help him raise her as well. “

So, he’s a peach of a guy, huh. A real catch. But is he better for DD than your H? Your H has said the same thing through his pain, but you do not hear him! A long-time cheater OM and a cuckolded but still faithful BH: which has more credibility? Sure, move back to OM. Go ahead. What odds do you want me to spot you if I lay a bet he will eventually cheat again <-- on you.


“Of course, I still have very strong feelings for OM and the decision to keep him completely out of her life is not something I am prepared to do. BH knows this. As of just this past weekend, I had become more at peace accepting that perhaps staying married to BH and working on my marriage is what is best for everyone.”

You put forward a blatant contradiction in this paragraph. 1. You are not going to keep him out of DS’ life. 2. You were more at peace staying married as the best choice.

But you also admit BH wants total NC if you stay.

BH wants you to stay, but you demand your own terms and continued contact. This isn’t about what is best for DS, is it. It’s still all about you. This is patently about what you want. And it’s called cake.


"Ideally" he wants me to come back to the state he is in so WE can raise her together. No he does not just want to get in my pants.... he assumed if the baby was his, I would move back so we can begin a life together as a family because he also assumed BH would not want to have anything to do with me or baby. “

This says between the lines he does not want to raise your other children. He expects you to leave them with your BH. Again, he’s a gem of a guy.

But wait, it gets better. He is willing to let you take BH’s children from him too. Wow, this guy is not to be compared:

“From everything I've read, there is no "right" answer. BH would agree for me to move back to the state where OM lives so he can have a relationship with his DD, but that means BH will only get to see his two DD's summer and every other holiday. Neither of us like that idea very much but he has said this would be the only way for both fathers to have right to their children.”

If you agree to this, you and OM deserve each other.

If you think your BH is just going to roll over on this, you are even foggier than your post indicates.


There is indeed a right answer for you, Becca: total NC forever with OM.

OTOH, the right answer for your BH is starting to look rather different from my knothole.


“It is truly a moral dilemma and yes, some of you will say I have no morals at this point, but whether you like to believe it or not, I do. Otherwise I wouldn't be asking for advice, prayers and guidance.”

Becca, IMO at this moment in time you are not looking for genuine advice. You already know what you want. You are simply looking for approval.


Here’s hoping for a clearer day for you tomorrow.

And please answer the question: Have you shown the email to your BH yet?

Sorry to hear about this complicated mess, McBecca.

I can understand your dilemna and not wanting to cause any
further pain or complication to the situation, however there
really is no "easy" way out of this. Actions of affairs hurt
all involved from the BS to the WS, even the OP, and most
definitely the children.

My WH has two kids from previous relationships, D13 and D10.
The mother of the first daughter was his college sweetheart.
They got engaged, moved back to his hometown and in with his
parents, had the baby, then broke up and went seperate ways.
There was no doubt on paternity, so they never did any kind
of legal agreement, just "agreed" between themselves that he
could see his daughter when he wanted to, and that he would
help by sending money, supplies, gifts, etc. At the time I
met him his daughter was 5, and lots of problems had risen
out of their lack of legal agreement- his EX used the child
as "leverage" to get money, would agree for him to see the
child then "change her mind" after he had flown or driven a
long way to get there (they lived in different states), and
finally she completely denied allowing him to see her any.
Shortly thereafter, a long legal battle began. The EX made
accusations of abuse, neglect and harassment and got RO.
My H countersued for full custody and to have D's last name
changed to his (she has nother's last name).
Finally, after much expense for lawyers, court fees, an
investigator and our time and cost of driving out of state
for court, it was settled in a "standard" custody agreement
where EX has physical custody, but H has visitation of two weekends per month, two weeks in summer, and alternating
holidays. He also pays child support, has to carry her on
health insurance and when she was in daycare, had to pay
half that cost.
Since we are out of state, H has never seen D13 two times
per month, hasn't had her two weeks in summer or for his
"share" of holidays due to work- it's just not been possible
because of the distance and time. They do talk on the phone
however, and H sends cards, gifts, and "goodies" at times
as well as the child support. D13 has not had an ideal life
as her Mom has since had two other children, been married
and divorced, changes jobs often, moves often, and has had
financial issues, but D13 seems to have adjusted pretty well
and is a healthy 13 year old now going through the typical
"teenager" issues. H and EX don't talk often, but do get
along fine to discuss insurance, vistation, etc. without
any problem. She and I have always gotten along okay and I
very much like and enjoy D13.

H has never seen or met his second daughter, D10 and only
saw her mother one time, when they had a ONS after a night
of drinking and dancing. He knew little about her, never saw
or heard from her after, and moved here a couple of months later, when our relationship began. More than two years later he was served paternity paperwork, which came as a shock to both of us (we were married by this time). After he was determined to be the father of this child a standard child support agreement was made where he pays support and has to carry medical insurance for his daughter, but they have no visitation agreement as he did not wish to see or have any contact with her. Since then, her Mother has sent
a short note telling a little bit about the girl, and her
photo each year, the only contact they have. H has written
when there has been a change in our insurance, and pays the
monthly support, but that is it. From the little we know,
it appears that her Mother was previously married and has
other kids, that's about all I know.

I have two points in telling you about these situations.
One is, whatever agreement you come to, have the papers
drawn up and make it a legal, binding agreement that covers
all the details of custody, visitation and support, and any
other detail. Don't go with just a verbal or mutal agreement
because as you can see, people can change their mind and it
can become a big problem, hassle and expense. Had H made a
legal agreement with for his first daughter to begin with
it would have saved lots of expense, time and hassle, and
the end results would have been the same.

Second, I want to point out to you that kids CAN and DO
adjust to a variety of situations and family make-ups.
There isn't always a way to make everything "fair" or equal
to everyone or to have it be what you would consider ideal.
In the case of my H's kids, he has said he thinks the
situation is actually far better for all involved in the
case of his daughter who he does not know, see, or have
anything to do with, than for his daughter that he does
know and see, because being a "part time" Dad, talking on
the phone, sending gifts, and seeing her once in awhile
is not the same as having a real Dad who is there for you
everyday and really knows you. He does not feel like he
knows his daughter very well or she him, and feels like it
has been confusing for her to know how to think of, or feel
for him.

You state that you broke off and ended the affair because
you felt strongly that you should try to give your marriage
a try, and that your BH was willing to do so also. I don't
think that the baby changes this and don't understand why
you are now rethinking this decision, or willing to give up
your marriage, loving husband and children with him to go
back to the OM ??? Discussing your "options", concerns over
OM, and wanting your BH to "be fair" to the OM has to be
very hurtful and is tremendously disrespectful to your BH.

I don't think you have ANY obligation whatsoever to the OM
and certainly don't feel he has "rights" to you or the baby.
It's unfortunate that he knows about the baby, has been any
part of this dialogue, or has been considered in your making
a "decision" (and again, why is there even a decision to be
made ??) because he does not belong in this picture !

I can't imagine him thinking in even his wildest dreams
that you would hand over your baby to be raised by him and
his family- and hope you shot that idea down permanently
and firmly as both outrageous and ridiculously out of the
question !! Sounds like he has a highly "romanticized" and
unrealistic view of the whole thing and pictures you as
some kind of "ready made" family, instead of recognizing
what it was: an AFFAIR with a married woman.

I personally, IMHO, and based on the situation I've seen
myself with H's kids think the best thing for All concerned
would be for you to establish permanent NO contact in any
way, shape or form with OM, and to make it clear to him that
he will have no custody, visitation, or contact of any sort
with the baby. If you don't need it, then I would not seek
child support. As you've said, he can challenge it, but it
does not sound like there is any real reason for him to.

Your new baby would not have "two daddies" (although she
could be told about her biological father when much older)
and none of your kids would have to suffer from being apart
from their parents, living in different states, or having
their lives torn apart.
OM can go on to live his life and have a family of his own
someday if he chooses.

I'm sure this wouldn't be easy for you, but seems like no
contact is the only way for you to find some "closure" on
this situation, get through "withdrawal", and truly be able
to commit your time, energy and love to rebuilding your
marriage. I think your husband, kids and you deserve that.

Slammed

Below I posted one judges view of the reasoning for the paternal presumption in favor of Mr Mcbecca. It sounds like the presumption applies in their state. Mr. McBecca makes the call and Mrs. McBecca would be wise to love, cherish and HONOR her GOD GIVEN husbands wishes.

Mr. McBecca may not see it now but eventually in recovery the OM can and does become irrelevant. Maybe someday Mr. McBecca (with input from the then FWW Mrs. McBecca) can HIMSELF agree to some access to OC for OM. HE/THEY can assess the best interests of HIS/THEIR child to determine whether to allow such access and to what extent. They can meet with attorneys and privately provide a visitation schedule (like maybe a week in the summers and a weekend here or there facilitated by Mr.McBecca and OM ONLY). Of course, the private agreement is not enforceable in court and if OM misbehaves the McBecca's can always rescind the agreement for what HE/THEY determine to be in the best interests of the child. But if Mr. McBecca desires to raise this child as his own it's a prefunctory "adoption" by law and OM has no rights. IMO, it's merely codifying and raising the institution of marriage over and above any property rights of OM to genetic coding (i.e. - sperm). Like it or not, biologically speaking, OM merely had a presumed enjoyable orgasm...It's safe to presume Mrs. McBecca (and even Mr. McBecca) was and are a little more vested in this baby and it's best interests. Until men actually carry fetus's this bias will and to some extent is in the best interests fo society. This may not be right 100% of the time but in the interests of preserving the institution of marriage and the two-parent family I believe the law is solid in this case. Fortunately, the law now seemingly provides Mr. McBecca a way out of paternal obligations but only if HE he wants it. OM has no standing otherwise.

Here's the judges quote:

"From the procreative standpoint, the reasoning is sound. The two-parent family is the fundamental reproductive unit of traditional American society, literally the functional reproductive organ of our culture. In the view of the U.S. Supreme Court, it deserved the highest legal protections. To have held otherwise, would have compromised its integrity."

So (hopefully in McBecca's state) the legal rules are set and firm. OM can't force his way into a 3 parent relationship with this child. The parties can then freely negotiate and consider a private arrangement to their liking IF they desire. With Mr and Mrs. McBecca having the final say regarding the best interests of their child.

Again, it's just a law. Don't like it...change it.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - sometimes fathers rights advocates get a little overzealous. (not you MEDC, you're passionate and respected not overzealous...IMO, your situation differs drastically from this situation). To equate the delivery of sperm with a womens gestation of a fetus for nearly 10 months and all that that entails is a bit over the top to me. Biology mandates a difference. Not an absolute presumption but a bias nonetheless. Men can NEVER be equal. Biological impossibility.

An example, a current father's rights group is advocating equal rights with women that can choose an abortion. They are claiming the men should be afforded the same "choice" to indicate they do NOT want to be fathers. They feel men should have the equal right not be forced to be fathers and hence not pay child support. That they should essentially be unilaterally allowed to "abort" their paternal rights, claims and resposibilites. I don't see society letting these guys off the hook...nor should they. There are consequences when you leave your seed behind in the "vessel". You might just lose control. A risk MEN knowingly presume. These "risks", as a matter of fact, may be exactly what moderates such risky behavior to some extent.

He said he would be OK with me taking them back to the state were we moved from for several reasons (one of course if that's where I want to go, two because my 12 yr old is having a hard time here, and third because I have support myself there between friends and church). So please do not misunderstand, I would NEVER take them away from BH.

I am showing him the email tonight when he gets home. Good or bad, he needs to see it I am aware of this,

I will not give up any of my children and you may call me selfish, and all but I may be a lousy wife, but that doesn't make me a bad mother. BH's job will not allow him to be as involved without me here and he agrees with that too.

McB