Also instead of fighting and LB'ing use Orchids reverse babble

Orchids Reverse Babble

Thanks BigK, I have Orchid's Reverse Babble printed. I need to use it now!

I do have SAA, but he won't read it if I just leave it laying around.

Thank you for your offer to email him...I'll talk to him over the weekend and see if that's something he would be open to. One can only hope...

I believe he is genuine in wanting to save our M, and I know he gets the NC thing and why it's so important, but I also believe that he's weak and knows how hard it will be to have NC with her (yuck).

It seems you and I are on the same page here for once...there may be hope for me yet!!!

stph20,

In my personal situation, SAA was a waste of time and energy on gemela. There may be a valid time for your WH when it will truly benefit him but I would not go rushing in to that one. If you get him to read it before he is ready, you may have fired your bullet and missed. You will also get him to begin to question your strategy and motives again. Remember a few short days ago when he would make comments about how the changes in you were not real and permanent? If he reads SAA, he may begin to ask himself those questions again. Until WH is truly committed to recovery, I think giving him your secret decoder ring is a mistake. JMO. Getting him to do phone counseling with Dr. Harvey would be a much better plan.

I agree Pio.

He's says he's committed, but I don't think he's 100% committed. If he were, he would have established NC already. I don't think anything I say yet is going to sink in. He's willing and ready to save the M, but not willing and ready to do the work...yet. As soon as NC hits and withdrawal is done, we can move forward, I just need to be patient until then. And Plan A my a** off to get him to want to establish NC.

He's not much of a reader anyway, so even when he is ready, it's going to be hard to get him to do this with me.

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

WH and I went on a semi-date last night. We talked more about our situation and the OW.

He told me that she called him Friday night (I already knew, by looking at his phone). She wanted to see when he was going to be leaving work so maybe they could see each other. He told her no, he was working late.

She called him again Saturday afternoon to see if he wanted to come and see her. He told her no, he didn't want to see her, and besides I was going to be home soon (even though, at that point, it was a lie). I ended up coming home early, and not too long after I got home, she called him again. He ignored it that time.

He started getting upset with me because I kept asking questions, so I stopped. I just want answers and WH knows that, but doesn't have any answers for me yet. He's still trying to figure things out for himself and I need to respect that.

He did tell me that he would make sure the phone calls stopped. I told him it wasn't fair for her to be calling him all the time, when we were trying to work things out between us and she's interfering in that. He said she's absolutely miserable with her BF and she's getting her happiness from WH. I said that's fine and dandy, but she needs to leave WH alone and let her BF work on their relationship. WH doesn't care for BF, based on what OW has told him about him, but I said that doesn't matter, the bottom line is that he loves her still and they deserve the chance to work things out, just like we do. He agreed with me.

He told me that he did actually think that he loved her, but he knows now that he doesn't and never did. He does think that OW loves him though. Which, I guess, is why she won't leave him alone, even though she knows he's back home, trying to work things out with me.

Stef,

Show him Josephs Letter about the need to know. It's linked on the Just Found ut Forum.

And make sure he reads the Infidelity FAQ's

stph20,

I know you have loads of questions. I did too. There is plenty of time to get answers. Be patient. Don't push too hard.

Now, what you will discover is that, with time, WH will be much more willing to answer questions. You will also discover that you no longer have any interest in knowing. That is what I have found in my sitch. My WW is now willing to answer any questions. Unfortunately I can't think of any to ask. Bummer.

I have to disagree with BigKahuna. (sorry)

You are still in Plan A. The affair is not fully over.

Educating your spouse is a lovebuster. If you force a bunch of reading material at him, he will NOT be receptive. Not only that, but you will be giving away YOUR support place. We won't be able to advise you on actions if the affair should heat back up.

Focus on your Plan A. Once he finally commits to NO CONTACT, and puts some extraordinary measure in place to prevent her contacting him -- then he still has WITHDRAWAL to get through.

You are a couple months away from him wanting to READ UP on marriage techniques.

Are you sure you want to leave? That way he has his way??

Pio and Lexxxy--we talked again last night. I told him all about MB (he knows about the forum, but won't come in here, even when I asked him to read a piece of advice I was given...he said he respects my privacy) and told him that this was the way I wanted to repair our marriage. I pushed and you were right...I should have gotten on here last night first, before talking to him!...he's not receptive at all to reading about this. He says reading books and doing questionnaires will not help him at all. Basically, he wants nothing to do with it. He knows what our problems were and thinks we can fix it by ourselves. He doesn't think he'll get anything from all that I printed out and the books that I have. He said he doesn't like to read and doesn't learn from just reading (he does have a point, he didn't do the greatest in school). So the only thing I'm going to disagree with is getting him to read any more. Right now anyway. Maybe someday, he'll want to.

So, I guess I lovebusted last night, because I pushed and pulled and did everything I could to convince him to read and learn with me. He wasn't having it.

We did talk about our problems before the A, and what led him to have the A, so that was good, I have a better understanding now and we've already made steps to affair-proof that reasoning.

He ranked his EN's, but I couldn't get him to do the full questionnaire. I was way off when I did it for him, while he was moved out! I also told him my ranking of EN's and we talked about what we weren't meeting for each other and agreed to work on that too.

He does answer my questions now, he just tends to get a little frustrated after a while (when I push).

I am still in Plan A. I'm NOT ready for Plan B. I'm sorry to everyone who has advised me in that direction, but I need more time to see if NC will be established. Maybe I didn't set my boundaries clear enough for him. Maybe I didn't set my boundaries clear enough for me either.

OW is (supposedly) leaving the job in January. Until then, I know we're not in full recovery, even though he said he was going to establish NC today. I don't see how it will be possible, so I don't have high expectations for him or our marriage until she's gone. I just have to hope that the plans for her new job don't fall through.

If NC still isn't established after she leaves, I will prepare for Plan B. Until then, I'm sticking with Plan A.

I know it's probably rare, but has it EVER happened that a marriage was saved while the WS still minimally talked to OP...ie, they worked together and JUST talked about business, but anything personal was off-limits? Just curious.

Stef,

I've read of 1 case where the marriage "appears" to be going OK. Not great odds. In ever other case the affair continues.

Trust me, the marriage is doomed without NC.

The longer you are in Plan A the more he cake eats and that behaviour becomes entrenched.

What are his EN's BTW? is SF much higher than you thought it was?

By him reading a bit about affairs, I had hoped he would understand about NC and agree to do it properly. I never did tell you to PUSH him to read anything but was merely hopefull he would start to understand if he read.

Stef - you are setting yourself up for a world of pain. Your feelings for him will ebb by the day. Most people do Plan A for far too long.

BigK-

I know you never told me to push him, but I was as hopeful as you were that he would want to read it all with me, but he wasn't and I pushed...totally my fault. I asked him to email you, he said he didn't want to talk to anybody about this, but didn't sound like it was out of the question, because he asked me questions about you and your sitch and the advice you've been giving me. We'll see.

I was just curious about the limited contact, I fully understand that NC is vital to our marriage, I wanted some sort of statistic to tell WH.

His EN's are:

1. An Attractive Spouse
2. Sexual Fulfillment
3. Financial Support
4. Recreational Companionship
5. Affection

I ranked them at:

1. Recreational Companionship
2. Financial Support
3. Sexual Fulfillment
4. Affection
5. Conversation

I'm not sure financial support is the right wording, as I do not technically support him in that way at all, but our finances were a sore spot in our marriage (and the reason he cheated) and money is important, and a huge source of unhappiness, to both of us.

I've only been in Plan A for about 8 weeks now...my original plan was to give it 6 months.

I know it may be wrong and detrimental to my marriage, but I'm just NOT READY for Plan B. Yet. He's only been back for a week. I feel it needs more time to calm down and get him used to NC. I know it will be hard for him and I'm trying to be patient (not my strong suit) with that.

He called me right before leaving work tonight and voluntarily told me that OW was gone most of the day today, so he didn't see her much and didn't talk to her. I don't know yet if he was at least able to tell her about the phone calls or not. I'll ask tonight.

Stef,

Unless you were a total witch during your marriage, 8 weeks is more than enough for Plan A.

He's a cake eater Stef. You have to knock his [censored] off the fence. Emotionally you cannot afford to lose your love for him totally.

You know you have been advised by the best to do plan B.

Well, personally in this case I think Stph needs to do an excellent Plan A for awhile longer.

And you have no idea how much it pains me to say that -- I am not a big fan of lengthy Plan A's!!! I don't think Stph has really gotten into the swing of Plan A. There have been lots of lovebusters and not enough deposits.

Do you know how to make deposits? Now you have a list of whats really important to him, how are you going to fill his bank??

And stop every single lovebuster. Stop educating, stop nagging.

The idea is not to PULL him to you, its to entice him to WANT to be there!

If I understand this all properly, he's back home. After all this chaos and drama -- I think you would drain his lovebank if you kicked him back out. And send some VERY mixed messages to him.

Right now, he appears willing to end the affair (albeit, not quickly enough...) So please continue Plan A, and give him no reason to want the affair anymore!

If, come January, he hasn't lived up to his end of the bargain -- then you consider other options.

Don't even slightly consider yourself in recovery yet. Don't have any expectations of him doing the work to fix the marriage yet. You are in Plan A, and working with him to end his affair. But his affair will not be over until OW is not in his life WHATSOEVER!

We're thinking exactly the same thing Lexxxy.

I have been advised by several people to start Plan B immediately. I asked him last night if he wanted me to not love him anymore, because that's what he was doing by continuing talking to her, and he said no, but he needs guidance and someone to talk to. I even volunteered to be there for him and told him that he could talk to me about anything, including his feelings for OW, although he admitted that he didn't love her again to me. He poured some of his heart out last night, but it's still fog-covered...it's the same stuff I kept hearing from him before he moved out. He said he would think about talking to me, because he did need to talk to someone and had no one else to go to. I told him right now, I see everything crystal clear and the odds point in the favor of him staying in the marriage. But, of course, I don't know the whole story. I told him that I am biased to me because that's what I see. I see that he was gone for 6 weeks and couldn't go one of those weeks without seeing each other, I see that he kept calling me for NO REASON whatsoever, I see that he voluntarily came home (although he doesn't know why) and if he really wanted a D, it didn't matter what the reason was, he wouldn't have come home. He can't understand how by just talking to her is still cheating on me, but I think in time he will. He just needs to be broken down and shown, but it will take time.

I don't think my Plan A has been effective enough. It did bring him home, and it did make him want to try working the M out, but it hasn't made him want to have NC with OW completely yet. He did tell her yesterday that the phone calls had to stop.

Honestly, Plan A is actually harder for me while he's living here again. It's hard to keep it up and act happy when you don't feel like it. And a lot of times over the past week, I haven't felt like it.

But we had a really rough week this past week. He's still trying to figure things out, I'm still needing to talk about everything, I'm still trying to convince him of the importance of NC, we've done a lot of talking, I've done a lot of pushing him to read MB stuff. Basically a lot of lovebusting and DJing going on this week.

I'm not sure how to deposit in his love bank yet. There's not much more I can do to meet his #1 EN. It's pretty easy, since he already thinks I'm hot and has never thought otherwise. #2 is pretty easy to accomplish too. It's also part of what brought him home. Otherwise I'm not sure how to fill his bank.

We talked a little more after I posted last night and I asked him if he would be more willing to try at this if we didn't talk about the A and our problems as much. He said probably. So I'll try that.

BigK, I just want to try and do everything I can first to get him to NC before going into Plan B. I don't think that it's fair of me to expect it while they have to continue working together. I know, and I've said many times, that we are not in recovery until she leaves. And it pains me that they have to work together and have contact, but there really isn't much else I can do at this point. He will not get another job, it's out of the question. He's agreed to end everything besides communication at work, strictly about work. This may be the demise of my M and I'm letting it happen, but it's just the way it's gotta be until January.

The only thing that hurts is him coming home and not being sure that he wants to be here and thinking that he doesn't love me anymore.

Stef,

The several people to whom you refer are MrsW, Pepperband, MelodyLane, Noodle, Myself and a few others. It is your choice to ignore this advice. In all deference to Lexxxy, I think you and her are dead wrong.

What do you intend to do in January when he tells you NC will be in place by March for sure. They do not HAVE TO continue to work together, they WANT TO.

Stef, You need to have respect for yourself. Plan doormat is not a goer. I hope you are not having SF with WH.

Steph

Plan a is not what is missing here IMO.

Plan A without a recovery context is doormat behaviour IME. I should know I was a doormat for WEEKS right after d-day.

What you need, Steph are personal boundaries: those inviolable rules that set minimum standards for how you allow yourself to be treated: that protect your dignity.

Without personal boundaries, plan A says " I am willing to change absolutely as long as you stay in this marriage"

WITH personal boundaries it becomes " THIS is what I am willing to do to rebuild our marriage if you meet minimum behaviour standards at least. I won't wait long for you to decide in or out. I want you but I don't need you".

Only YOU know what your personal boundaries are Steph.

As a smart adult you can choose any path for yourself that you wish. But PLEASE do so in the light of facts not hope or denial.

If you require nothing from you rH other than his presence at home in return for your plan A , love and faithfulness, please don't "hope" for a contribution from him and consider that a plan. Hope is NOT a plan.

If you DO require a return from your H I propose that this will constitute a personal boundary of yours.

Mine are :
* Permanent NC and Total transparency - give me no reason to police you
* Take all action to protect me from further hurt
* Learn about why FWS had the affair and take action to prevent it recurring.

I would divorce Squid even now over persistent violations of these boundaries.

So Steph it sup to YOU. Work out what you require from your H and accept no less.

Right now you are investing blindly and hoping for a return which is not a plan IME. Read "love must be tough" by James Dobson for a great explanation of this.

I would plan A INFORMING your H of your boundaries and give him some short time to take action supporting your dignity and show commitment to your marriage. Then plan B him if he doesn't.

That will only be a nett loss to you if you value his disrespectful presence in your life more than your dignity. Thats a decision only you can make for YOU.

All blessings.

BigK,

Plan B would be my advice if WH was OUT of the house also.

Now that he is back in -- she just CAN'T do Plan B without sending incredibly mixed signals.

Also, all those experts you referred to haven't posted on this thread since her husband moved back home. You were just advising her a few days ago to print out threads and have him read read read! Now a couple days later and its "kick the bum out..." GEEEEZ how about a little consistancy here?

Excellent post Bob. Boundries are definitely needed!

Excellent boundaries.


I have this book, and read it a couple of months ago...I'll re-read it.


This sounds like an excellent plan, IMO. How short of time do you recommend?


You're right. I was sooo fine without WH here, but I just got weak again as soon as he moved back in...I went from being a doormat, to being a strong person, back to being a doormat. I don't want to be that way. Which is why I say Plan A wasn't long or good enough. Not arguing with anyone, just explaining.

Steph

you asked How short of time do you recommend?

More strong meat from me I'm afraid !

See IME WS see a 'deadline' approaching and promise more, plead more, or make just a tiny bit of effort enough to make the BS decision to "quit or continue" harder than it should be.

This is why so many Plan A's go on too long IMO.

That's why I recommend that you set yourself a chronological "drop dead" date, not relying on how you "feel" after a while.

So in MY case if Squid had not made progress in respecting each of my three boundaries 3 months from d-day I would have plan B'ed. Note that if she had made progress in 1 out of 3, or 2 out of 3 I would STILL have gone plan B. because ,remember, personal boundaries are INVIOLABLE. ALL of them must be dealbreakers else they are wishes not boundaries.

In your case I suggest that because you are not soon after d-day and , frankly, your H appears to be an Olympic standard cake-eater right now re contact with OW I would make that either one month, or the end of the year as you wish.

Now in my case I DID NOT give Squid a timed ultimatum. That sounded too much like a DJ from where I was sitting.

I told Squid my boundaries, told her that the door was open and any time she felt she could not or would not respect my boundaries she need not feel trapped in our marriage. I told her that I would not tolerate violations for long, for my own dignity.

Then every time Squid violated a boundary I would tell her, avoiding DJs or AOs and remin dher that I would not tolerate this for long.

Bear in mind I also invested in MYSELF at this time- getting buff and going out with friends as often as I could. Looking great and making Squid see what she was about to throw away.

Squid seemed to rebel against my boundaries for a month,initially, until during one particularly nasty rant from her I asked her "Squid, why are you here ? You surely can't call THIS "working on our marriage" ?. I would not have you in my life if being so makes you this angry or sad. The door is open. I want you very much, but I do not need you any more. I will be sad, but I will thrive if you leave. Please stay and work respectfully, or leave but don't stay and treat me in ways you know I find disrespectful"

From then on she started respecting my boundaries like a sulky teenager <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Squid has respected all my boundaries now for two years. It is instinct for her now.

Expect a LOT of manipulation from H to get you to agree for him to stay without making significant effort in recovery. Many do that particularly WHs.

Hope this helps

All blessings