desperatelytrying..

has yet to come back and state what the issue is with her about this..


is it the porn
is it the masturbation..

is masturbation the bad thing
is porn the bad thing.....

is it that she caught him

what's the real issue for HER...

I am surprised about the immediate response of sex addict and sexual addicts counseling.....
I don't think we are qualified to diagnose such things

ARK^^

I agree that the lack of detail in the original post makes it difficult to know how to respond.

But if this...


...isn't a red flag, I don't know what is.

What would you say to someone who said that they'd been smoking cigarettes since they were 13... and although they've tried to cut back... they doubt they could quit?

I also agree "we're" not qualified to diagnose such things.

However...

IF... IF... he does have addiction/compulsion issues around porn & masturbation... the amateur advice for desperatelytrying to become his "supply" could be equally misguided.

--SC

I would say it's their RIGHT to choose to smoke...

is not age thirteen the time that mose healthy males and females...begin to do some self exploration...

I think that there is a little too much knee jerking...

I would say that some marriages exist with masturbation occurring in both sexes...and it has absolutely NO effect on the intimacy of marriage....

the questions remain...

why does he NEED to quit..

cause his wife doesn't like it....
again...

is masturbation without visual stimulation OK..

are works of erotica porn?

what is his answer supposed to be that makes his spouse happy...

he's truthful.

since age thirteen...

must there be shame....and punishment in this..
must there be labels of addiction....
etc
need for counseling

must he have to answer these questions if they are accusatory and not of just human interest..

does his masturbation HAVE to have something to do with his spouse....

does it ALWAYS

women self lubricate several times a night...and often orgasm in their sleep...

is that bad
are they cheating
should they be forced to admit it
say since what age...etc etc etc....

again what is the spouse here objects to exactly

porn use
or
masturbation...

do all people that masturbate need sexual addiction counseling....

hmmmm

ARK

Agree. And I can't stand the smell/feel of cigarette smoke. So... if I were to marry someone who had a smoking habit, and that person somehow managed to hide it for the first few years of our marriage, I'd be bummed when I found out.


Yes. I agree. Just about every time a woman comes here, upset that her husband is using porn, someone comes along to turn it around on the wife and say, "well, you just gotta put-out more hunny. <snort>" To me, that's just as "knee-jerky" as jumping to the conclusion that her husband has an addiction.



I happen to agree. However, you can't prove a negative. Who's to say intimacy wouldn't be improved in those marriages if both partners quit masturbating? How do you measure such a thing?



Maybe he doesn't. But the fact that he says he doesn't think he COULD quit even if he tried is the issue, or at least part of the issue, IMO.


I didn't flame him for being truthful. Nor for mastrubating since he was 13 for that matter. I was pointing out that this tidbit of information... spoken in conjunction with the idea that he didn't think he could quit if he tried... might suggest a deeper problem.


No. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, shame creates a huge roadblock to healing. Don't get me started about the way shame seems to be an acceptable weapon to use against some around here... but not others.




Well, if so then I guess I need sexual addiction counseling. Cool. One more thing to blow some money on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Ark, desperatelying posted the following in her post:

”I am currently struggling with FWH's use of internet porn to masturbate.”

Ark, from what she posted above, I think her issue is not about the masturbating itself, but the fact that her H masturbate to porn images of other women and is therefore unfaithful towards her in his thoughts when he’s doing that…

True… Personally I think there is nothing wrong if one or either of the spouses masturbate...as long as the masturbating doesn’t include ‘mental’ adultery towards the spouse e.g. fantasizing about other men/women while doing it...

To give you an example: If my H masturbate and I know he fantasize about me while doing it, I would have absolutely no problem with it…in fact I would LOVE it, but if he fantasize about other women or looking at sexual images of other women while doing it, I will definitely feel betrayed and will find it very offensive...and of course the same applies to me... And from personal experience I can just tell you that such behavior (masturbating while fantasizing about someone other than one's spouse) DOES have a very negative influence on the intimacy in a M...and it also have a negative influence on one's self-respect etc.

Last week, a new poster "ifeelcheated" came here for advice because she recently found a bunch of porn on her husband's computer. She admitted that she hadn't provided him with much SF since the birth of their baby nine months earlier. Several posters jumped all over her for that. (perhaps righfully so). But NOBODY addressed this quote from her:


So...

He used porn when he was "getting it" all the time. And he used porn when he was not "getting it". But still... somehow... it was ifeelcheated's fault. (???)


--SC

And by the way...

Just because someone has the RIGHT to do something -- smoke, get off to porn, jump out of planes, whatever -- doesn't necessarily make it safe or healthy for the person doing it... or the people in their lives.

How sad... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> As much as a WS having an A is NEVER the fault of the BS, lusting over pornographic images (which is just another form of adultery as explained in my previous posts) is NEVER the fault of the spouse either... The blame for such behavior rest full and square on the shoulders of the WS and/or the person using porn for lusting and 'mental' betrayal...and such people must address their own internal issues and not try to blame it on their spouse...because such behavior (blaming the spouse) indicates that such a person is trying to excuse/justify/rationalize his or her behavior. And I’m afraid the posters who’ve “jumped” on that poster and blamed her for her H’s porn use...was excusing/justifying and rationalizing his behavior too… To me, this is the same as blaming a BS and “jumping” on the BS for his/her spouse’s A and trying to tell the BS that the A was his/her fault! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well this isn't the first time he's tried to cover his butt. He did this when we first got married, even though he got it all the time!

So...He used porn when he was "getting it" all the time. And he used porn when he was not "getting it". But still... somehow... it was ifeelcheated's fault. (???)


smartcookie...

I don't see the direct connection..
I think that some people 'get it all the time' and still masturbate and that the two issues are seperate...

and can exist without impact...

one may feel they need to or have to cover their butt because of a spouses reaction vs a true feeling of self shame....

and as I recall that poster didn't not have anything against the use of porn in and of itself.....

which is a whole different ballgame..

and I jumped all over this one because of her participating in the breaking down of intimacy and her own self...NOT his....
sabotaging behavior of denying HERSELF sexual intimacy, stress reduction, and bonding......


and in this post we still don't know what the issue is about the porn use....

is all porn use bad in the posters opinion
or porn use without involving both spouses...

that's one of the unknown....

How does the word fault even play in to this issue...

who is to say that this issue needs
excuses
justified
and
rationalized...

God made our brains the way that they are...
and men are definitely wired to visual images....

If they see an image porn or not...and feel aroused by it..
are they automatically cheating
are they bad

ARK

Ark, no they are not... Sexual arousal and lust are not the same. Many people don’t know the difference. God made every one of us a sexual being, and that is good. Attraction and arousal are the natural, spontaneous, God-given responses to physical beauty, while lust is a deliberate act of the will. Lust is a choice to commit in your mind what you’d like to do with your body. You can be attracted or even aroused without choosing to sin by lusting. Many people, especially Christian men, feel guilty that their God-given hormones are working. When they automatically notice an attractive woman, they assume it is lust and feel ashamed and condemned. But attraction is not lust until you begin to dwell on it. Martin Luther said, “You cannot keep birds from flying over your head but you can keep them from building a nest in your hair.” You can’t keep the Devil from suggesting thoughts, but you can choose not to dwell or act on them.

Therefore, the fact that men are visual and get aroused by visual images, aren’t an excuse/rationalization/justification for them to deliberately and inappropriately act or dwell on that arousal, lusting over pornographic images of other women, practice ‘mental adultery’ (sexual encounters/fantasies with other women in his mind etc.).

Suzet...

I have no use for porn in my world...
nor any support for the industry.....

but

I am not ready nor willing to speak for others
say they need counseling
diagnose them as a sex addicts
or make such broad statements that christian men assume anythning is lust and feel ashamed and condemned...
nor willing to say that those thoughts are of the devil because Martin Luther said so.....
especially on a post with so much information missing...

can't do it..
won't do it...

I just can't say that sexual counseling is the first route or answer to this issue by a long shot...
cause I'm not even clear on the question

ARK

To clarify what I have said: It's not the spouses "fault". But if the spouse wants to help their mate get over the porn, they have to ensure that they are meeting their needs as much as possible.

It's similar to countering an affair.
It's not the BS's "fault" that their spouse chose to have an affair. However, if the BS does not do their best to meet their spouse's EN's, it's not very likely that the WS is going to come back and bond deeply with the BS.

I agree, I’ve not done that either (said they need counselling or diagnose him as sex addict).

It wasn’t a broad statement. A broad statement is when you use such words as ‘always’; ‘ALL men’; ‘never’ etc...which I didn’t use.

But Martin Luther didn’t say so… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I’ve posted that Martin Luther just said: “You cannot keep birds from flying over your head but you can keep them from building a nest in your hair.” That's all... However, the Word of God teaches me that the devil can put tempting thoughts in someone’s head. It is not a sin to be tempted. Jesus was tempted (by the Devil), yet he never sinned. Temptation only becomes a sin when you give in to it (by acting or dwelling on that thought).

Agree…

I apologize Suz...

you did say many men....not all etc...
sorry about that....

and I thought the second sentence was a quote also...

I still remain suprised at peoples conclusions on so little info...

ARK

Agree… But the spouse in question was using porn secretly even while his EN for SF was fully met by his W before her pregnancy… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And this indicates to me that this man’s porn use is not related to missing EN’s from his W at all, but internal issues he needs to address. The book “Wild at Heart” by John Eldredge actually addresses this issue too… Very insightful book…

Thanks Ark! You didn't need to apologize but thanks anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I understand what you're saying.

I think Ark is on the money on this one, but that is not say that all others are wrong.

His post merely asks questions, the answers of which are left for the reader to determine. Those answers will then surface if there are really issues of sexual fulfillment in the marriage.

As I read his questions they almost ring “rhetorical” in nature. In the general sense, masturbation is a natural biological and physiological response in the human species. It is only in a religious context that it conjures images of shame and loathing.

To describe the practice of masturbation as an addiction is really not the argument. What are most troubling to read are the instances where masturbation is “broad brush painted” as a harmful addiction. Where there may be circumstances where masturbation is of an “obsessive / compulsive” nature such instances are indeed remote if you can believe the clinical studies of the past 30 years (google it).

Masturbation to erotic images is no immediate cause for concern. Such imagery does not directly mean that there are core issues in a marriage. At the very worst it is likely a symptom of another problem and NOT the cause of the problem itself.

But what is the problem then? It is, “Desperatelytrying is concerned that her husband’s masturbation and view of porn is damaging their marriage or is a sign of a damaged marriage”. My hypothesis is that her husband’s masturbation is likely nothing more then a healthy human response. But how can we really find out if this is true?

I have a question. Why do men masturbate more then women?

It is a very simple question with profound impact. Attempting to answer this question will likely surface an interesting and obvious truth, “Men are more sexually driven then women.” That is, I’m sure, no surprise to anyone here. I might propose to you that men most often make their intimate connection with women through sexual intercourse. I might also propose that without that physical connection the man, far more often then the woman will be the one that suffers.

If the original poster’s issues are examined from this standpoint, more effective remedies might surface. I might suggest that the core nature of this thread is one of meeting emotional needs. I suggest that that is the very first place to look for a solution. Of all the emotional needs outlined by MB, sexual fulfillment is the most elusive to solve. It is also the least understood, by men and women alike.

Hope I helped,

Mr. G

Just my 2 cents then I will leave.

I read an article somewhere and I wish I would have saved it regarding a mans drive and a womans drive for SF in a long term relationship(marriage)

Basically the normal gist came about in which men want it more then women.

As life gets more complicated with work, kids etc the mans drive does not diminish much it might actually increase because SF can be a stress reliever. For women it diminishes because "most women" need to be in the mood.

The other underlying issue is that men and women view fullfilled differently. Men want quantity, women want quality. So if a women has great SF once a week that is fine but men want SF more then that.

There were other points as well regarding the issue.

But with that being said how is a man supposed to be fullfilled?

Part of this is filling each others most important needs. Not downplaying your partners need for SF.

If your partner wants SF 6 times a week but he only gets SF 2 times a week is his need being fully met?

To me if the answer is no then what should be done? IMVHO it is also not fair for the man to expect SF 6 times a week if their partner only wants it 2 times a week.

So I think nobody would disagree that going outside the M to get that fullfilment is not ok.

So men get SF single handedly by masturbating.

Now the other thing is that men are very comfortable with their bodies, usually morso then women.

One of the reasons is because in order to go to the bathroom men are always touching their ..... women on the other hand are usually told it is not ok to touch themselves.

That is one of the reasons men have no problem masturbating.

As a man progresses in age they have seen more and done more. At 13 years old the victories secret catalog can get a young man excited. At 30 that is not going to happen(well probably won't) Visual stimulation is important to men. Even during SF with their partner the visual stimulation that occurs hightens the experience.

Now from my experience most of the men that I know that watch or talk about porn are not FANTASIZING about being with the other person. They are not thinking boy if I could be with her I would dump my W.

Now men are stimulated by many things women in bikini's, lingerie adds, a girl with a short skirt and a low cut blouse, Carls Jr adds with Paris hilton, Coors light adds even nudity in R rated movies.

Not that the man is thinking about an A every time. They are just taking in the sights.

My grandma used to say "I don't care where your grandpa gets his appetite as long as he comes home to eat."

"Now from my experience most of the men that I know that watch or talk about porn are not FANTASIZING about being with the other person. They are not thinking boy if I could be with her I would dump my W.
"

There are men in PAs, who are not thinking, "if I could be with her [full time] I would dump my W".
They are doing it purely for the sex.

if "most men" you talk to claim that when they are using port, they are not fantacizing about doing physical acts with the person in the photo... they are lying to you.

As life gets more complicated with work, kids etc the mans drive does not diminish much it might actually increase because SF can be a stress reliever. For women it diminishes because "most women" need to be in the mood.


I am much more interested in pure scientific studies dealing with sexual drive..

SF is also a stress reliever for women...based on B/P changes hormones...endorphin release...many health benefits to both sexes....

Media....and the ilks of the woman's movement.... in my opinion perpetuate stereotypical responses to womens sexuality...

Is it true...scientifically based..?
or is it because that is what society teaches men and women to believe......

that diminishing sex drive is normal..based on what?....life...
paying bills
work...???

I think your sex life is exactly what you make of it...
the more you work at making it a fullfilling part of your life the more it will be...

the more you sit around and wait for some outside force to influence it or make it so...

the more you will cling to the thought that paying bills and having children automatically equates a diminshed interest in sex......the more it will be so..

entitlement and victimship...

and replayed over and over in our sitcoms...

perpetuating this is big big money..

parent magazines...article after article...
what about raymond...
jokes at the water cooler....
etc...

ARK