You know what he is doing is wrong... he is being a huge jerk! But they are not the moral police... you have been given the correct information. There is nothing official that they could do without exposing themselves to a HUGE lawsuit. It is not the job of an employer to monitor the fidelity of his employees. It wouldn't even be legal.

You are grasping at straws here and I fully understand why. But if you push an issue like this, you can be sure to not see those kids ever again. Even a newspaper would be exceptionally at risk for taking on that story. They open themselves up to defamation and libel suits and I can guarantee youthey won't touch it.

Instead of spending your time focusing on "revenge" type scenarios... focus your activities on "what will get me the best chance of spending time with the kids." Don't do anything to jeopardize your ultimate goal here. You may need to cut your H loose in a way that requires you to eat some crow in order to get to spend time with the kids. He has played his cards... you know how low he can sink... now, you respond with calm and cool determination to continue your relationship with the kids.

I would not let those revenge thoughts go any further. You are bound to lose. Be brave... be strong... you will get to spend time with the kids again. It is probable that your love for him may be damamged beyond repair. But I am fully suggesting that you find out what you financial options are when you speak to the lawyer and if you can get out of that house without penality, I would do so by the weekend. You need a break. If that is not possible... if you have any friends or family in a nice place... perhaps it is time for a one week vacation to recharge your batteries.
I am so sorry for what you are going through. You are heart broken... I can see it in your posts... pray and find a way to decompress for a while.

MEDC

AmIOK,

You need to try to act in accordance with what is best for your marriage. There's no doubt that a WS is the biggest PITA on the planet---they're drug-addicted psychopaths bent on destruction. The good news is that they can recover from this. The bad news is that they have to choose to do so, and that can take time.

It's good that you're talking with Steve. He'll help you set up a plan to deal with this. I won't second guess, but my feelings are that you'll have a discussion with your husband about working on getting the kids back in the house, establishing some boundraries, and doing some counseling. If he's completely against these issues, my bet would be to go to a Plan B soon and let him suffer the consequences on his own. You might end up coordinating this with your in-laws as well, especially if they're providing kid care.

Listen to Steve---I bet you'll enjoy him. And one of his bits of advice that I remember is that when in the whirlwind of infidelity, often the best path is to relax and do nothing, until the dust settles. Then you act---not react.

((((AmI))))

What a tough situation. You have trump cards you don't dare play for the sake of the children, a man tromping around their lives, heedless of the consequences - that he himself could lose those children and put them in a situation that would harm them...

If you expose him to the school counselor for the sake of the children, it goes on record - which gives evidence to the bio-mom's mother for trying to get custody... so you don't want to play that one...

Please discuss this with Steve tomorrow - how do you deliver a wake up call that demonstrates to a drunken-man's perceptions - that he's endangering everyone and needs to stop.

I have no idea how to play this because I've never witnessed anyone so breathtakingly destructive in my life - and believe me, that's saying something. (worked in a psych hospital!)

Just wondering what happen to you tonight! WH's off tonight isn't he...you're there...the kids...just wondering if you are cool...you said that you would be around...are you two hours ahead of me or one...I'm not sure where the time changes...

I'm worried for you and nervous for me...what a pair we are...I feel like I'm suddenly acting needy because H is working nights...I posted a few times on my thread...crazt stuff I think...just crazy...

AmIok,

You have exposed. Enough. Give it time to sink in. They are law enforcement.....NOT the moral police. When you have something they need to know (i.e. abandonment, abuse, domestic violence,etc.), that is who you should call. Realize that it doesn't take much to have DV charges made. The police witnessed the then WS pushing me into the house (as I was throwing his clothes on the front porch (after several false recoveries.....I was losing my patience by then)..... the police filed RO charges against the WS even though it was the WS that called 911. LOL!!! WS went to the pokie for 2 1/2 days. His anger towards the police (4 large officers) was embaressing. Still to see him seething at the officers as they cuffed him was painful. There was no reasoning with him and they officers knew it. They recommened 'anger management' classes for the WS but you know how those WS' feel. They think everyone else is crazy. So we just let him loose and he went to live with the OW. Even in that crazed state it didn't take him long to figure out the OW was difficult t/b with. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So go concentrate on your plan A and get plan B ready. He will jerk the kids around so prepare them for the ride. Let them know you love them and will be here for them as they need. Let them know it is ok to let their dad know when they want to go home and that he should not keep them from their home. Let them know he may try to wipe you out of their lives but that you love them and would never abandon them, that if they want to come 'home' to tell their dad. Hug them and let them go. They need to speak their mind to their dad as well.

take care,
L.

Thanks .... you all are right .... the revenge fantasy was just that .... and not the best plan for anyone .... was kind of a nice fantasy, though.

I need to remember what my intent is and purpose. Wow, LA, you must be very disappointed in me, I seem to be forgetting all of my lessons now when I need them the most .... ok, getting back to ... truth ... intent ... what's mine ....

Rin, sorry about last night, WH was on the computer .... I'll update on the sitch and my conversation with SH this morning in a little bit, after I get the kids off to school.

-AmI.

I understand I thought something was going on...I was worried for your mental safety...LOL

I spoke to Steve Harley this morning. (5 AM ... of all the silly times in the world - who is up at 5 in the morning??)

He said that I can't do a Plan B with WH in the house, but not to do Plan A, really, either. He said to constantly, but gently, bring reality straight into WH's face.

Ask what the plans are, both immediate and long term. Particularly for the kids. Talk about the plans openly, in front of the kids. Keep telling him that it isn't apropriate for him to stay in the house as long as he is continuing his affair.

To not avoid contact anymore, since that isn't productive when he's in the house ... it isn't taking anything away from him and just looks childish and silly. But instead, to just always, always bring up the truth - in every conversation. When he wants to talk about anything, turn it around on how the A has or is or will affect it. But gently and calmly.

Don't live like it isn't happening, but do continue all the other normal plan A things that I was doing anyway, for myself. He said don't try to meet WH's needs or do any of that part of Plan A. And don't try to do all the "family day" things (like bowling or hiking, etc.) that I'd been trying to do before, either. Just my things with the kids whenever I'm allowed to, and obviously big event things (like the awards ceremony, DS's birthday is coming up, etc.). He said to be very open with the kids, and discuss things in front of them, incluing his plans to move them.

He also said to color everything I say with "there is still a way to fix this..." "there is a way for us to still be a happy, loving, stable family together...." and similar comments. He said WH probably won't hear that or act on it, and I told him I wasn't convinced that it was fixable at this point, either ... SH said it was, but more importantly, it's telling WH that he's choosing his route over having a stable happy family.... over fixing the problems. Just a little bit more reality for WH, if it's able to sink in.

So, back to my main lessons ... speaking up, truth, intent. SH said TRY to keep this up until the end of the month .... but he doesn't know if I'll be able to make it much longer than a week or so.

He said not to make any legal moves to get WH out of the house yet, and not to be the one to file for D yet, although LSA might be neccessary if there are financial issues.

Wow ... for someone as conflict-avoidant as I am, this is not going to be easy. But maybe I'm not so conflict-avoidant anymore .... I mean, I sent those letters, I told him to get out of the house ... There might be hope for me yet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

It sounds like great advice. Remember that we are here when you need to vent or just a cyber shoulder to lean on. Good luck.

Thanks, MEDC. And everyone else -- there are some really great shoulders around here that have been so, so incredibly helpful!!


Last night, DS cooked dinner. I was running late getting home, and he called me on my cell, he was so proud that he'd made dinner. It was very sweet. And they "made dad wait" until I got home to have dinner with them all.

Afterwards, DD and I went for a bike ride. WH and DS were leaving with a friend of his when we got home, DS said they were going dove hunting. So I had DD all night while they were gone. We hung out and chatted and had a really nice time.

Maybe he's coming out of this not letting me see the kids thing. At least when it's conveneint for him ....

-AmI.

Good Morning! Well, I think that's wonderful. Did SH say why he felt that you wouldn't be able tokkep it up longer that a week or so?

I think that you have come a long way and are so much stronger that you were. One thing to keep in mind is no refuting...hard to do...but just the same keep that in mind.

I think that you can do it! You are amazing and wonderful! I feel you will do an awesome job!

Disappointed in AmI? Could that be a signal to look at you being disappointed in you? Like you had a hidden expectation to take what you know and do it perfectly, no practice required? Even in times of great fear and stress?

Not me, AmI. You're my Triathalon...I know you can do this through the end of the month...I know you can be the reality bringer...and I think lifting the no-speaking part of Plan B is great for you...learning to speak is key, I think.

I believe in you, AmI...all the people on your thread do, I believe...and that can sustain you until you choose to believe in yourself...

Have you talked to DS and DD about what's going on? I know how fearful you were of that...and I know how strong your love is for them...so I know you can do this.

As for the re-election timing...I know you know that's just something you thought of...however...since OW was fired and was in the dept during their A, it isn't just a moral police issue and I know you know that.

As you put that on the backburner...and concentrate fully on living in truth, bringing it to yourself and to WH, I think that issue will resolve itself...and either way, I'll support you.

Making it first thought, even 15th, would be a distraction...and we all distract in sneaky ways from reality...so please move it last in line, 'k?

You are doing good self-care when you recall what you have done...taken steps...with the letters, etc. Could it be you have a deep desire for a magic step...one that fixes everything, right now? Might lead you to discount each real step you take...so you might want to acknowledge that desire and let it go...it doesn't come from Adult AmI...

When is your next appointment with SH?

Thank you very, very much for being here...for posting...for stating your truth, all of it, here...see if you can do it even more deeply...as practice...even reading your words aloud to give them voice...that carries...so you really can bring truth to WS, yourself and the children.

And check my post to Rin today...maybe you can devise a self-care ritual, too?

With you all the way...

LA

this plan RAWKS

Well, I'm not doing very well with this plan so far. Just not doing a good job of getting my mouth open.

He asked me tonight to get some poison for the crabgras in our yard, and was chattering on about the watering timing. I just nodded and said I'd get it ... I should have said something about being able to take care of the lawn myself after he moves out, or he won't have to worry about the crabgrass once he's gone or something like that ... I just couldn't come up with anything.

Thenhe's also making a point of camping out in my room all of a sudden. When I got home, he was in there, sitting on the bed, talking on his cell phone. Then while I was making dinner, he went and hung out in there and watched TV. There are FOUR other tv's in our house -- including a new, big, flat screen downstairs in his little hide-out. Why does he have to be in my room, in my bed watching it??

Just to prove that he can.

And every time I went in there tonight, to go to the bathroom, change, plug my phone in ... whatever ... he very shortly found an excuse to be in there, too.

It was SOOO aggrivating ..... the tension in my spine is going to snap my neck here in a minute. I was so irritated that I couldn't even get out any words about what his plan was, because they would NOT have been nice or calm or anyhitn else that SH told me they should be.

Right now I'm just so aggrivated with him .... disgusted and angry with him .... I just want to be rid of him!!! But then sometimes I'm totally heartbroken and sad and still love him..... Had a heck of a bawl-fest this afternoon with SIL.

Ugh.

I'm going to the gym. I can't wait until tomorrow night -- he goes back to work and I will have some peace. Hopefully WITH the kids. I should ask him that .... that would be a way to bring up the plans ... right?

"Should I plan on having the kids tomorrow night while you're working or are you still trying to keep them from their mom and their home?"

Maybe too snotty ....

how about "What are your plans for tomorrow night? Will the kids be with me or should I have them pack overnight bags? Will they need a ride to church? It starts at 6 tomorrow."

Any other suggestions?

-AmI.

just start to whistle or hum music when you can only think of nasty things to say to him

I am serious

hum show tunes

what (non-romantic) show tunes do you know

"I'm going to wash that man right out of my hair" ... just hum the tune without the lyrics

Pep

AmI, Just think of it this way...you are adjusting to your new reality...you can't just expect yourself to walk through the pixie dust and have it down...we're getting low on the dust...

Go over the conversation in your head several times...think about what SH said...I'm sure that you will come up with something...lemonade!

Like HL said in my thread...it's easy to focus on the negative...we do that everyday...you've been naded lemons...Are you going to make lemonade? Another things...when H and I were in the horrible time...I found myself wanting to withdraw...wanting to not be around him...

it was a difficult discision everytime I felt that way but I had to consciously decide to move forward...to let go of all the anger and resentment...instead of stepping back from H...I had to step to him...

I look at it this way...that where that love is a chose thing comes into play...if you want to believe all those bad things about WH you can...or you can chose to love him alway...uncomditional love...just as you would your kids...no matter what bad choices they make...you're going to love them anyway...How about taking that approach with WH? Think you can make an effort to move in his direction and not away from him....wanting to not be around him...

What else would you consider a form of withdrawal in your R/M? It's not easy to go against the grain...to cut a new path, create a new pattern...but it is YOUR choice! You can control that choice...what are you going to do? Lemonade?

At one point, I considered H my best friend...I could tell him anything...that what a good friend does right? Tells you what you don't want to hear even thought you need to hear it...why? For me it's because I love my friend...I would like for my friends to have the information that they don't see...

If you don't hand him the information that he needs to make better choices then can you honestly expect him to make good ones? How can you expect yourself to make good choices when you don't have the information that you need?

The way I see it you both have info the other needs right now...Do you think that he knows that even though he's made poor choices that you are willing to love him regardless?

I hear that you love him...I hear it when you speak about how good of a man, dad, father, H he was...hold those thoughts close to mind...just as you would with your kids...knowing that they are all capable of making better choices...he's capable...but WH needs you truth...the truth that SH spoke of today...

I don't see your M as being lost...not yet...but if you continue to step back and not move forward then when it comes time, will you feel that you've done everything that you can/could have to save your M?

IMO, I don't thing you can say that right now...I know YOU are capable of love more...just like you love your kids...

Love him AmI, love him unconditional...know that he IS capable, then be still...be patient...

You ARE a spectacular woman...strong, loving, willing...I see it...YOU possess everything you need...please be YOU and don't let your fear or anything else get in the way...

Are you tired...the last leg is around the corner...I have faith in you if you don't...knowing you can push forward...even if you don't...

YOU, AmI, are sooo amazing...what a special person you are!

How much longer do you want to ride that rollercoaster? It is nauseating isn't it?

Think long and hard. His episode when he took the kids and didn't tell you.....have you asked him did he accomplish what he wanted by that little adventure?

Time to learn to throw the stuff back in his face. Now expect him to pull those stunts again. When he doesn, you ought to hvae a plan.

See it works for the WS.....initially....temporarily. But the BS survives because when you do things it is with a long range goal in mind. Let that be your inner strength and a tool for your survival.

Know that the WS can't do much for long. They are not creatures of this world and have to eventually return to the mothership for getting reenergized or manipulate the BS into enabling the A in some twisted way.

JMHO,
L.

AmI,

You were able to speak up for yourself in those AIMs. You can do it again. You can be polite, be careful not to hurl unproductive insults and still speak your mind. It seems to be his presence that makes you clam up. Think about why, so you can get past it.

Since he's going back to work, why don't you start with an email to him? That way, you can be in control of what you say and read it a few times to make sure that it gets your point across as concisely as possible. Many men just zone out if women get too wordy on them.

You might start by directly addressing the situation and say how you feel about what's happening and how he's treating you. Tell him that you need him to respect your space. Tell him that you think you two need to be responsible adults in this situation and think of the kids first. Ask him what plans he has for the kids and tell him, as long as you don't feel that you are being mistreated by him, that you are willing to hammer out an agreement that will be best for the children. Open up some dialogue with him and see what he says. Don't rise to his bait if he tries to pull you into an argument and call him on it when you see it. Tell him that you know that you are both angry and hurt, but that it's time to try to deal with this situation as best you can. Anyway... you get my point. I think that you start out with email interaction and only do AIM or a phone call if you feel that you can stay cool, yet not take any bullying crap from him.

And I still think that you should keep asking him to help come up with a solution to this. Ask him how he would feel if the situation were reversed and he was being treated by you as he's treating you. Tell him how difficult it is for you to keep your cool and that silence has been the only way you could try to cope with his behavior. Tell him that you realize that this isn't working and that it's time for him to stop the intimidation and for you to stop the silence and that you guys need to do what you can to handle this situation for the kids. I think that if you can admit something that you need to change before asking him to change, that it'll go over better. I think if you approach it right -- be cool and fair and even when making emotional statements, to do it with dignity and without pointing the finger at him for what he's done wrong (pretty apparent, even to him) that you can open a dialogue with him. Since you're not in Plan A, you don't have to try to meet his needs and be rejected. You can speak up for yourself and not allow him to mistreat you and still not be cruel to him.

Anyway... just my thoughts. I know you can do this. Just break the ice with a way that you can communicate more comfortably and ease into the verbal interaction. You can do it. And I think it will take a ton of the tension away. It sounds like all the tension causes him to keep acting out and it makes is very unlikely that things will turn around. Talking, like Harely suggested, will help to ease the tension and get you moving into something productive.

Orchid:


I'm done! I want to get off!!

I need help with the practicalities of how to do that. I feel blocked, I can't figure out how to undo the seatbelt.


This is the part I need help with ... I can't seem to come up with what to say, when. So I just end up being quiet ... letting him walk right over me again.



This is exactly what he's doing .... trying to manipulate me into enabling the A. Living in the house and talking to her on the phone right in front of me. Coming into my room at all hours of the night, turning on lights and things ... just to tell me that he has the right .... it's just power play after power play with him.

I need to learn how to hand his bad behavior back to him, right now I just freeze and don't seem to be able to get anything out.

And that adds to my aggrivation, because then I get angry with myself for just taking it ....

Can you handle interactions with him as if you were planning something? Just start asking some general questions (as if you were planning a vacation...)
Don't wait for him to start -- you do it. At the dinner table. Conversationally.

Have you looked at any new places yet?

Where do you think you will move?

Do you think the kids will have to change schools?

Do you have someone to watch the kids tonight while you work?

Are you and the kids gonna keep going to church? Gosh that must be hard for you....

Could you teach me to start the lawnmower? I suppose I should start learning these things....

I'm cancelling our MC appointment, we may as well save the money...

I'm thinking about getting my own cell phone plan honey. We probably shouldn't have a FAMILY plan anymore. And I don't feel like sharing the cost of your calls to OW anymore.



There is a whole list of non-confrontational questions to ask him. Sweetly. As if you are just curious about what he thinks about this.

You have made the decision about your rental property. Make it clear to him that you do not want to rent to him.
Just say "I don't want to be your landlord, you should make other plans." No doubt he thinks he's going to go there rent-free. Dummy.