Hi, Rin!


Very good point .... I DO want to just "have it down" ... I want to just know what to say and be able to deliver it so smoothly and perfectly .... and I get very frustrated with myself when I can't get the words out.

I'll definitely try practicing lines and going over the conversation in my head, first. That would probably help.


I just don't know how I could do this right now. Yes, he used to be wonderful, but right now, he is a cold, cruel, hard man just trying to shove his way around and bully me. Moving TOWARDS that seems like I'd just be asking for more torture .... maybe I'm not getting it ... I get the unconditional love thing, and that it's my choice to love .... but I also feel like I still need to protect myself. Maybe I'm not quite understanding the idea of "moving towards him". And you're very right, I'm currently withdrawling a lot.

So ... maybe some practical examples of what you mean? That would help, I'm very confused right now.



Yes. And that's why he feels so entitled to continue walking all over me and abusing me. I think the information he needs from me right now is how he has and is destroying our family and our lives.

I just can't seem to get that to come out of my mouth ... I need to practice the words, phrases, conversations ....


Yes, I do still love my H. But I feel like I have to learn to stand up to this cruel, hateful, manipulating, conniving, self-absorbed WS that is here now. No matter how much I love him, I just can't continue to let him stomp all over me while he systematically dismantles our family. I feel like I need to stand up straight and keep that backbone strong....

By speaking the truth and living in truth and .... and I'm not sure what else just yet....???

-AmI.

Its impossible to imagine entire conversations with him, because he is too fogged out -- who knows what his side of the conversation would be?? lol.

Think of this as a hit and run. Ask your questions...then ignore the answers (cuz they really don't matter...hehehe)

You're just going to poke the bear a little bit. Then come back for more later. Just laugh at him. He's going to growl. Who cares? Its fun to poke him!

Keep expanding that list. When you run out of ideas, start over again.

AmI,

O&H statements...bringing reality to WH...

"You are cheating on your children and your marriage, just as your first wife did to you. You know how much this hurts, crushes the breath out of me. That's why I haven't been telling you. I know you know."

"I know our children love me. I know what you're doing will not degrade their respect and love for me as it will theirs for you."

When he's ON the phone to her in front of you...loud enough to be heard on both ends...not yelling, just calm and projected: "You are talking to your affair partner in front of your wife. You are right here in our marriage bed, our house, and pretending you are not an adulterer. You are destroying an entire family, just as your exW did, and as you WILL do again."

"When are you giving me a visitation schedule, WH?"

"I don't do divorce. I want to save our marriage."

Do what Orchid says...hum. Make eye contact...stay calm and speak your mind. You tell me what you're thinking, feeling and believing...and we'll make statements...your truth...so there is no self-punishment (want me to kick you to get you to stop kicking yourself...would that be a kick?)

You didn't finish the triathalon by not trying...you had to pull out what you didn't know you have...

And you have this.

This is about you, who you really are...not response-based manipulative efforts...bring reality to him. Stay in it yourself..."I am stunned by your choices, WH: you're intentionally waking me up when my sleep is already fragile from pain from your choices...is choosing to destroy our family's lives enough for you?"

I dunno...you're on this heroine's journey...and I have no doubt, full faith in you...totally. Speaking is key. You know this...practice while you drive to and from work, in front of the mirror...start short, continue until you get longer...keep a pad of paper and a pen next to you in the car...write down what you are thinking, feeling and believing...what your goal is...at stop lights.

Practice, AmI. Whatever is in you is worth it...truly, honestly is...until you open your mouth...prepared statements practiced over and over again (so when he wakes you from a deep sleep, they fall out your mouth)...when your pulse is 190, they fall out your mouth--when your heart seemingly stops beating in shock--they fall out of your mouth.

Silence kills...kills intimacy, self-trust, it betrays and it is a way to lie. You have nothing to lie about, AmI...you really don't. You can't say it wrong, ruin the world or break into a billion pieces from saying one word.

God didn't make us so powerful...he made us equal. Know this, act from it, and then you will be living from love, not fear.

You can do this...each day, more than survival...well on your way to THRIVING...

No doubt.

LA

wonderfully said.

Here's some more questions or just comments:

Do you think DS will have to quit football (insert favorite activity) when you move?

Have you looked into counselling for the kids?

Have you talked to an attorney about your custody situation?

I better learn how to cook smaller portions!

Will you have separate bedrooms for the kids?

Do we need to do anything with our health insurance?

AmI- do you remember when I told WH that I wasn't scared of him? Do you know how SCARED I WAS to say that? From the moment on, he could talk to me, say anything he wanted and I just didn't take it personally. Instead, I spoke in a loving manner, fixed his plate, asked him questions about his day...

If he did something and I got mad...He would ask what was wrong...I would say I'm mad...he would go on the defensive but the way I was talking to him wouldn't let him stay that way...

I changed my behavior and always tried to do the opposite of what I was feeling...If I felt like withdrawing, I MADE myself interact with him. I MADE MYSELF interact with him EVERY CHANCE I GOT.

At one point, we would go for days, actually he would go for days with a bad attitude...but I ignored his behavior and didn't let it affect mine...enmeshment (His behavior influencing your's)...now, we're down to a few minutes...

Stop being scared...act!

Freedom is in acting...not reacting and being silent...You want to fell empowered...let go out your fear...fear is bigger than the actual sitch!

Still loving every minute of knowing you and knowing you are capable...

Like LA says...not bashing you...just knowing you and giving you a friendly push!

be brave or suffer more

you choose

Great ones, Lexxxy!

LA

AmI,

You're putting way too much pressure on yourself. You don't have to deliver perfect lines. You just have to state the obvious. He comes into your room in the middle of the night, you say, "It's 2AM. I have to work in the morning. How about some common courtesy?"

He talks to his girlfriend in front of you, "Have the decency not to talk to the woman you're scewing in front of your wife. If you don't want to be married, then move out."

He gets aggressive, "Since when did you decide to be a bully and try to destroy my life and that of your kids? Is this how you thank me for giving you everything and taking in your kids and loving them like my own? Do you like the way you're behaving? Are you proud of it?"

"Married poeple share bedrooms and bathrooms. Does this mean you want to be married? Or are you just being a bully?"

Etc, etc. All you have to do is state the obvious to set your boundaries. Set the groundwork with a well-thought out email that explains your position, your greivances and your concerns. Why not say what you say to us - that he has always been such a wonderful, thoughtful, loving husband and you can't understand how he could have an affair in the first place, much less treat you so shabbily and hurt the children. As him why and what he hopes to acheive.

You don't to come up with little quips or zingers or profound statements or anything. You just have to tell let him know when he is acting unfairly, inappropriately and hurtfully and put him on the spot. When he acts like a reaonsable human, respond in kind and speak to him respectfully and reasonably. If he's a jerk, tell him and ask him to stop and think about how he's acting and what he's doing.

It can't get much worse than it is, so take the pressure off yourself. Keep it simple.

Oh, wow ... I was trying to respond to everyone earlier and got pulled away then come back to all this --- you are all SOOO great! Thank you so much for being here.


I went home at lunch and WH was there. He made a snotty coment about the bike he wants to get DS for his birhtday, and walked outstide and got on the phone. He came back in later and apologized and said "can I tell you how bad I don't want to fight this out?"

I said "What do you want to do? Just pretend like you're not destroying our family?"

He said "Why does everyhting we say have to turn into a fight?"

I said "Because I will fight for my family. And I won't pretend like you're not tearing it apart."

He went about doing his own thing for a while and started back up about the bike. We talked about it for a while and then I asked him if the kids would have to change schools when he moves. He said he hopes not, that he wanted them to stay in their current schools. I asked him if they were still going to be allowed to stay with me on the nights that he's working and he said no. That they will only have one home, and it's with him. He said that I could come over there on the nights he works and stay with them, or he would find another babysitter to do it.

There's more, it was really bad, but I have to run to a meeting. Dumb work getting in the way of my personal life ....

I'm feeling really, really heartbroken right now.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

arrrrgh... I want to stomp a new mud hole in his backside! Okay... I got that off my cheast.
Good for you for talking to him. Grteat start... keep it up. I know it hurts... and I am sorry for that.

Anything about the kids -- ask IN FRONT of the kids.

This is part of not letting him get away with things and having to face his victims!

That is what Steve is advising you to do!

Don't try to do this all in one quick swoop -- its like chinese torture, one drop at a time.
Plus the quick hit and runs give you more control over your emotions.

Like I said before -- say what YOU need to say, then stop listening! His answers are gonna hurt you, and you'll feel really really heartbroken (just like you said above...)

What you aren't understanding is that your questions and statements are GONNA HURT HIM! You can be in control.

He doesn't have a plan, AmI. You do.
He "hopes" they won't have to change schools? Does that sound like someone very far along in the planning process?
He'll find a babysitter when he works? Have you ever tried finding a babysitter for a 13 year old boy??? Oh thats easy, 13 year old boys love to be BABYSAT.

How's he affording this bike? Is he expecting you to contribute? HA. Get your own gift for son. Something better.

{{{{AmI}}}}

What WS is saying, he's only saying right now...please understand this and don't jump into choosing whether you'll go stay at his new pad or not...he doesn't even have one yet...what he's saying isn't happening now.

That's all I got, AmI. You're the reality bringer...don't bring in what isn't reality yet.

LA

((((AmI))))
We're all standing beside you. Please please remember WS lie...lie, lie,lie...

He's saying the first thing that comes to mind...


Don't take anything personal...now is the time to learn how to detach...

I'm with you all the way! you are fabulous...absoletely amazing! You ARE doing this! WOW!

BWHAAAAAAAAAAAA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

sure they do

if the babysitter is an NBA or NFL superstar ~or~ is one of their dancing cheerleaders IN UNIFORM ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thank you! ALL!!

You're all right -- he doesn't have a plan, he hasn't thought through anything. Every time he would tell me what he was wanting to do, I'd point out what was wrong with that plan ... just practical stuff, like he said he'd pick both kids up from school before he goes to work. DD doesn't get out of school until half an hour after he's supposed to be at work. I pointed that out and he said that he'd just take her out of school early .... and I said you're going to take her out of school early 4 days a week?

He said "If everything I say is going to get thrown right back at me, then I'm done with conversation!" He said that five or six times during the conversation...

He's not thinking through the reality of the situation. There's no way he's going to find a "babysitter" who will pick the kids up after school, take them to all their activities, make dinner, do homework, get them in bed ... and then just wait for him to drag his silly butt home at 3 in the morning. Certainly not someone who will do it 4 nights a week! And someone who will care about the kids -- or even better that the kids will listen to or respect ... ???? Yeah, right -- the last time you met a respectful almost-14-year-old boy was .....?

(Actually, DS is a GREAT kid, but that's because he knows where my lines are .... he's also very good at testing the boundaries of others.)

I'd like to see him try to juggle that situation. When he told me that I could have the honor of doing that, he said I could decide if I wanted to leave at 10, after the kids are in bed, or I could stay and wait until he gets home.

So he thinks it's ok to leave them home alone all night once they're in bed ... until 3 in the morning??? Yes, they're 10 and 14, but you can't just have them spending nights alone like that ALL the TIME. No way.

He really doesn't have a realistic plan, hasn't thought through any practicalities.

I was very, very upset about the whole conversation. It was very emotional and I was crying through a lot of it. He was even crying at some of it. I've had a little time to cool off now and now that I can see his lack of reality or planning .... it helps. He will realize soon that playing his trump card comes with some very real, practical problems for him.

-AmI.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Oh, Pep!! No!! MY 13-year old boy is perfectly sweet and innocent and has no interest in dancing-uniformed-cheerleaders!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

-AmI (plugging my ears and humming hymns so as not to think of my little boy that way!)

Ami;
This is actually hilarious! He hasn't thought this through at ALL!
What do you think custody evaluators would think about him leaving 2 kids home alone all night? Ain't gonna happen.

Just focus on getting your shots in, and leaving him floundering in his answers. Maybe laugh at his answers if they are ridiculous. Keep pointing out the flaws, just don't try to cover so many topics at once. Thats the whole point of this exercise, for him to start really thinking about what his life is going to be like without you.

At the dinner table, make him face his victims -- address some of the things he has not the guts to say to the kids. Moving away from friends, activities, changing schools.

Don't try to string too many together -- thats where you get into these emotional battles that are hard on YOU.

Get MIL on your side -- she is of course who he is planning on watching the kids once he gets you out of the way.

Through in a few financial questions here and there. Illustrate to him that you'll be fine (financially) and he'll be in great pain.

Are you planning to buy me out of the house?

Do you think I should open a new checking account?

Hmmm, I think we'll have to file taxes separately this year.

AmI -- I know this is hard on you, but don't volunteer to make things easier for him -- if he wants you out, then be OUT. Let him just TRY to replace all the things you do for those kids. You are SO RIGHT -- there is no babysitter on the planet that will do all of that every night of the week. (its called parenting....)

And the kids already KNOW what you do. Its important for them to know this is HIS choice, not yours. He is the one tearing apart the family.

LOL, AmI...you can leave your fingers in your ears...I only need your eyes for a moment...and you do hum well, btw.

"He's not thinking through the reality of the situation."

Can we have a big TaDaaa! Is this proof enough for you to realize he is in fantasy? Totally? Can you now not react to him as if he is in reality?

Loving detachment...you can do this...if you will set your mind to know that you are facing a wishful boy instead of the man you married...

"I'll just pick DD up early from school."

"So you're going to take DD out of her last class four days a week in order to keep your job?"

Orchid...where's Orchid??

Her reverse babble is bringing the reality home through his own words...handing them back...not pointing out the flaws...handing them back? As if you agree...because you're really agreeing to disagree...you live in reality; he lives in another dimension.

"So your plan is to keep them away from their mother, even if it costs you their love and your job?"

Calm voice, lovingly...Okay, so I'm not so good at this...would take Meryl Streep to pull off that one.

::::

I trust you to understand this, AmI. I know you would not try to refute a mental patient who believed he was Santa Claus...I know you would stand there and participate in a discussion of reindeer ailments...I just do.

Why not now? Why not choose your intent to hand back...to not hold...'cuz it's icky...what he says his plans are...his own experience in doing it will show the flaws...you don't have to...

"Sounds like a lot of work to me. I think it's easier to work on our marriage and stay a mother to our children, in my opinion."

DJs in your head will come out in your actions, body language or words, AmI...they feel good like a jolt of sugar...and we all know the sugar drop.

Blow his mind, AmI...agree, agree and agree...hand back choice, truth and reality...without refuting.

And then cure cancer.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You can do this...I have no doubt you can. I believe in practicing this...focusing on your own intent, loving detachment and sharp eye to reality...centering yourself. Remove yourself when you lose your center and then re-engage when you have it back.

Now, does it seem that everything you say I throw it back to you? Uh, with porcipine quills attached?

Just wondered.

LA

Thanks, Lex.

I do agree, now that I calmed down, it is kind of funny. I'm sort of interested to see him try his little arrangement. He said he'll know soon on the house that he wants to rent. It's completely across town, but interestingly, just down the street from OW.

I'll try to keep things short from now on ... you're right, this one was a wringer for me ... I was beat afterwards.

MIL is on my side, and there is NO way she'll take this much work on. Particularly when she knows they could be with me instead.

Thanks for the pep talk! I really like all your 1-liners ... I printed a bunch of them out so I could practice them.


LA --

I was doing just that today, without even knowing it ... when he gave me the line about school, I just said "You're going to pick both kids up from school, take them home, and be at work by 3:30, when DD doesn't get out of school until 4?"
"You're going to take DD out of school early 4 days a week?"
"You're going to get home at 3 am, then get up to drive DS to school by 7 and DD to school by 8?"

I will have to practice more on the calm voice ... and I really like thinking about it as someone who thinks they are Santa Clause.

That made me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


-AmI.