Time to rock the boat. Make it uncomfortable for the WS but not for your H.

L.

How do I do that? I'm up for any suggestions!!

It's 4am right now, no WH. He got off work at 2:30. I hate this, and I hate that I care....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.


Updated to add .... WH got home about 6:15.
Today is DS's birthday. Our family has a special little tradition for waking people up on their birthdays .... DS gets up at 6 .... guess who wasn't there to do the birthday thing? I told him ... "You missed the birthday thing for DS." His response: "Can I have one of these muffins or are they for something special?" I said "They're so DS could have a little different, fun breakfast for his birthday -- did you remember that it is today?" He just walked away eating a muffin.

I'm so ready for him to be out of the house, so I don't have to deal with him like this on a daily basis anymore. I really don't want to know whether or not he comes home at night! And don't want the kids to have to worry about it, either.

-AmI.

Hi, I posted on my thread. I'm keeping up with your's, I'm happy to see the appt. with SH and you're not moving out!

I still have hope for your family AmI, I know it's hard to see from your point of view...but I do.

Always thinking about you! You really are doing wonderful!

Please don't give up yet! Hold close to you, who he once was...he's lost...the alien planet is a ways away...keep the becken signal out...

The kids are not more important than your M...if your M is good than the kids will be too...it's a lesson I had to learn, but that's just my 2 cents...

Before I forget...I want to say thatnk you from the bottom of my heart for all of the wonderful compliments...it's a wonderful feeling to be admired...much the way i feel about you and your strenght...

I do have faith that you will make it through this...perhaps saying that you are scare of WH aloud a few times will give you the strenght you need to move forward...

When I told WH at the time, it felt like I had freed myself from a jail cell! Who knows?

I have to respectfully disagree. I think it is time to start divorce proceedings. Do not leave the house...but get the paperwork filed. You would do well to start this on 2 fronts... first, it could be what gets his behaviors to change and if not... at least you have begun the process of getting rid of this a-hole.
I feel so sorry for the kids in this situation. I hope oyu are keeping a detailed journal of every activity that this clown is doing.
Hang in there.

AmI,

Would you consider that your monitoring of his actions isn't from caring about him...but caring about accountability?

Maybe a signal your of when your focus slips?

A helpful signal to let you know to acknowledge yourself, your actions, your choices...and not about him?

He KNOWS what he's doing...missing...etc. Speak your truth...practice and know...say what you have to say to your standards, not to get him to do anything...know anything. If this is what it takes for you to live honestly, it would be worth it in the end...no matter what that end might take the shape of.

You're worth it. As you find yourself dwelling in his stuff, stop and say, "I don't want that." Pull yourself out of it and recenter. The more you do, the more you'll stay in your place...and know it for what it has always been...lovely, loving and true.

LA

AMEN MK!

I kept the appointment with the MC today ... it was scheduled before all of this happened ... when I was going to suggest the MB weekend to him, and before I knew he'd started back up with OW again.

Anyway, I filled her in on what's been going on and she about fell out of her chair. She couldn't reconcile any of his actions to the person he portrayed in all of our sessions.

I told her I was really frustrated because I felt like she really hadn't helped at all, hadn't had a plan, and just had us ramble and never get anywhere or take any action to save the marriage. That she let us both be strung along by his charm and ability to divert away from reality, and that I really expected more from an MC.

I also told her I didn't know if anything would have really worked, with the way his brain has so totally malfunctioned. But that I was still frustrated that we didn't TRY anything, other than sitting and chatting once a week.

She took it pretty well, said that she believed right up to the point of the last session, when he said he didn't want to try anymore, that we were well on our way to recovery and doing so well that she didn't think we needed anything more specific than just better communication. Apologized for being so wrong and off-base.

So then we talked about the current plan (SH's plan, which she really liked. I gave her the MB number and the names of the MB books), and how I was doing with him still in the house. She wanted to know how I was taking care of myself with all the stress around me. We talked about the kids and how to talk to them without getting too close to the line of parental alienation. That was about the only worthwhile thing that she said the whole time .... she helped me come up with things that I could say to them -- specific words and phrases -- that would still be sharing truth with them, but also not saying bad things about their dad.

I told her I wouldn't be back, and she said she understood.


I do think I might try to find an IC that will be more effective. This isn't going to be a fun process over the next several months. I also found a divorce care class at a local church that I'm going to start going to. I don't see a lot of options other than D at this point, especially if he keeps refusing to get out of the house. I think I will need some IRL friends, in addition to all of you, to help get through the next steps.

-AmI.

AmI...You are MY hero today! You spoke up and told her exactly what you thought...laid it all out on the line!

That's great! Did you pat yourself on the back?How do you feel about the session? I know what you think.

You're SH call is tomorrow?

Hi, Rin! Thanks for hanging in with me. You might be seeing the forest that I can't, for all these trees, but I have to admit that I'm losing hope fast for any M. You're right, though, he's lost, and if the aliens ever return his real brain, then there might be some hope. I did tell him the other day that he doesn't scare me -- and immediately thought of you when I said it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, you posted while I was typing .... I feel ok about the session, kind of glad to be done with her and happy that I said what I thought and didn't cause the world to end by doing so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Appointment with SH is Friday morning.


MEDC and H&P, I think you're right ... I'm getting all of the paperwork together right now to get ready to file. Want to run it by SH first, but I think it may end up being the only way to get him out of the house. I see very little hope for the M, and want to minimize the damage to the kids.


LA -- Might be a little bit of a mix ... it probably is some about accountability. And it is also some about him -- it still hurts, and I care, that he's not coming home to us, his family. That he's choosing someone else over us -- even over the kids. I still leave the back door unlocked for him, even though I doubt that he's coming home at night. Haven't been doing so well on re-centering on me recently. I guess I've been focused a lot on his behavior, his stuff. I like the idea of focusing more on me, my stuff instead. How is it that I'm still having to learn this lesson??? Thisis one of the basics that I thought I had down! Thanks for reminding me.

-AmI.

Ok, I'm trying to cut back on the DJ's, but still state the truth to WH .... here's part of the latest IM discussion.

WH IM'ed me about taking DS to dinner tonight for his birthday .... and getting him a small gift for tonight (we'll do the bike at his birthday party this weekend). We talked about dinner plans first. Then I said:


ME: You missed waking him up this morning.
ME: Their lives are going to be pretty totally disrupted as it is, it's probably good to keep some traditions in place for them.

HIM: I was trying to get home. I caught a dope case and it got messy, uncooperative and resistive. Friends don't need excuses and enemies won't believe them so why say them

.... (I didn't respond to that, and we just went into more details about dinner and DD's schedule tomorrow, and whether we were giving DS a gift tonight -- DS had asked for a CD of a very hard metal band.) ....

HIM: NO
HIM: we need to continue to use some scenorship on what he listens to
HIM: he is very impresionable and that is a terrible impression.

ME: Maybe you can find something that would be appropriate for him.

ME: Yes, he IS impressionable. Is flaunting your affair in front of his face a good impression? How about introducing them to your mistress -- is that a good impression?

ME: Throwing away your family and wife .... is that a good impression?

ME: Sneaking around instead of trying to fix your marriage .... is that a good impression?

ME: You still have the chance to save this family, but running out on it is much easier .... is that the impression you want to give him?


HIM: we WERE having some discussion even if it was only for his b-day. Can we discuss this late tonight after they go to bed? I knew I was on-line too long and once you start this it onlyconfirmed it. I willfigure out where he wants to go to dinner and I willlet youknow. Is your Mom coming and do I need to call with the changes.


ME: Yes, my mom is coming.
ME: Does it bother you when I bring up the truth about your actions?
ME: Are you upset to hear that your actions have consequences?

HIM: it is DS's birthday and I have no interest in starting a fight between now and then. Have a great rest of your day

ME: Ok. Let me know the plans for dinner, I will probably have to meet you there if it's at 5:30.

(then he logged off)


So ..... DJ's? Anythng I should have said better? I'm trying to learn here for the next time ..... I don't mind being corrected -- I'd appreciate it!

Thanks!
-AmI.

Watch AmI GO!

Here's my tiny edits...bet you can't see a huge difference:

"ME: You missed waking him up this morning.
ME: Their lives are totally disrupted. I believe keeping some traditions in place helps a little."

(Now, this was a reiteration of the truth, wasn't it? You already said this early this morning...and he walked away. Why again? Because you wanted to add on the how importance continuity are to the kids?)

"HIM: I was trying to get home. I caught a dope case and it got messy, uncooperative and resistive. Friends don't need excuses and enemies won't believe them so why say them

.... (I didn't respond to that,"

LA's Response: I believe no one accepts excuses, only intent. I don't know yours. I say what is true for me, and let go whether I'm believed or not. I don't base what I say on others' believing or accepting me. Keeps me from being their slaves and dishonest to myself.

And no, in the heat of the moment, NO, LA couldn't come close to this...just practice your own way.

Now, here's where I would have missed the huge ship YOU saw...GIVE YOURSELF HUMUNGOUS KUDOS!!!

"and we just went into more details about dinner and DD's schedule tomorrow, and whether we were giving DS a gift tonight -- DS had asked for a CD of a very hard metal band.) ....

HIM: NO
HIM: we need to continue to use some scenorship on what he listens to
HIM: he is very impresionable and that is a terrible impression.

ME: I'm sure you can find something that would be appropriate for him.

ME: Yes, he IS impressionable. I believe your affair is not a good impression for him to see and know. Nor was introducing them to your mistress smart censorship.

ME: I believe his family being torn apart AGAIN has more of an impression on him than music ever could.

ME: I believe you sneaking around instead of trying to fix your marriage is not a good impression."

Your statements are made to bring truth and reality...VERY real your correlation to what WH thought and what was real...AWESOME...however, forming them as questions is aggressive, and tells self "If he doesn't see this, then it's not worth saying. If he doesn't react to this, then it's not worth saying. I'm asking him so he will know, which disrespects he ALREADY knows." Keep yourself in reality, so you can bring it...non-aggressively, because....THAT'S NOT WHO YOU REALLY ARE.

"ME: You still have the chance to save this family, but running out on it is much easier .... is that the impression you want to give him?"

Total DJ, dude...

"HIM: we WERE having some discussion even if it was only for his b-day. Can we discuss this late tonight after they go to bed? I knew I was on-line too long and once you start this it onlyconfirmed it. I willfigure out where he wants to go to dinner and I willlet youknow. Is your Mom coming and do I need to call with the changes."

LA's Response: I hear you saying you were only risking talking to me at all for the sake of DS's bday, is that correct? And you expected to hear me tell you my truth and that you wouldn't like it? I will be available to discuss whatever you wish tonight after the kids are in bed. My deadline is 10:30pm, then I'll be going to bed. Thank you for letting me know what you find out and calling me. Yes, my mom is coming.

"ME: Yes, my mom is coming."
Oh, you wolf in sheep garb...

"ME: Does it bother you when I bring up the truth about your actions?
ME: Are you upset to hear that your actions have consequences?"

Pure aggression for a purpose. Tell me that purpose because it's important for YOUR well-being.

"HIM: it is DS's birthday and I have no interest in starting a fight between now and then. Have a great rest of your day"

You proved him right with your aggressive questions...that is attacking, like asking someone, "Why? Why? Why" which seems innocent interest but bears tons of judgment. You are speaking to stay true to yourself, your marriage and your children. Doing that which hurts those areas isn't being true, is it? Your WH was a CA, as you were, pre-A...you can't change his...but you may be trying something tricky here to have proof of something which really isn't true.

Don't feed the bears.

"(then he logged off)" Oh, that was WEEKS ago.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Ok.. here's my impression of the interchange.

First the good part -- he's talking to you like you're a fellow parent -- not just about making b-day plans, but he said "we" should continue censorship. My take on that is that he's still seeing you in the picture. So... I wonder if a lot of his behavior is bluffing, even it he felt he was serious at the time he's made the threats to take the kids away.

The way you're talking to him sounds a bit like a lecture. I'd be careful about when you say things to him and pepper it strategically. And I'd stick a lot with how you or the kids feel or how you are worried about the way the kids are reacting to a situation. So, I think it was ok to say something about him missing the b-day wake-up tradition, but maybe say, "I felt so sad that you weren't there and I was concerned that DS might really feel hurt. Everything seems upside down and I'm sure the kids are really scared." Maybe something more along those lines?

The other things you said... well, your priority from what you said was to maintain your relationship with the kids and to keep your yourself feeling strong and at peace with your decisions and actions. I'd keep the R talk to a minimum, except for a few comments when they're relevant to the discussion. I think that if you continue on parenting the kids together, that he'll get too comfortable with letting that continue and he'll be less likely to take the kids or keep them from you if he moves out. I think you should continue in a real co-parenting role and I'd just let him know when you are concerned that the kids are being hurt or their routines or lives disrupted.

You need to keep the boundaries firm with you, but I think the confrontational type comments need to be kept to a minimum. You can get your point across without making it sound too much like he's being chided (though you have the self-control of a saint if you can pull it off). I'm not saying you shouldn't point out what he's doing to you all and I do think you should say when he's upsetting you, as well as the kids. But when you're having parenting discussions, I'd try to keep it on that subject and always act like you should be having an equal part in the care of the kids. That way, he has a positive impression of you parenting the kids and he'll make that association in his fogged-out pea brain.

And while you're doing all that, I think you need to have him served, simply because he is probably thinking that he can do whatever he wants, because you'll always be there willing to take him back and give him a chance and put up with whatever he dishes out. If you serve him, it lets him know that he could really lose everything. And that may burst the bubble more than just about anything else. He can't keep living there plaguing you if you're divorced and even an alien like him can understand that much.

I think what you said was reserved, respectful and right on the money.

You're both right .... now that I figured out how to open my mouth .... I really need to figure out when to SHUT it, too!

I get all bristled up and feel like I have to make a point .... instead of just making simple statements. I feel like I need to argue and make him agree that I'm right (which isn't going to happen) instead of just letting simple statements drop and take their effect later. Old pattern, I guess.....

Ugh. This simple truth business is not nearly as simple as it sounds!!

Thanks for the comments, I'm learning!
-AmI.



Oh, MEDC -- you posted while I was posting. From a tough, law enforcement guy point of view, would you have taken this, with my tone, as a challenge -- a fight, so you're not going to listen and will win at all costs (I think that's how WH probably took it) or do you think any of it would have made it through? (Not that anyone would ever have to say these things to you ... but just the tone, would it be too much?)

Thanks!!
-AmI.

Ami -- This is EXACTLY what Steve coached you to do.
Keep the mirror in his face.

I would not change a thing. You did very very well.

You no longer have to worry about whether or not its a DJ -- everything about him is disrespectful.

Keep Steve's plan in mind. Follow it. Don't let up. Don't question yourself later. You are doing exactly what you need to do.

Lexxy, I respectful disagree...I feel that we all need to led by example...if AmI treats him with disrespect...in essence, IMHO, I feel she is giving him permission to be disrespectful to her. WH does not need any additional permission to do this...I do agee that AmI needs to continue with mirroring; however, I feel in a respectful fashion, especially in front of the kids.

AmI, Keep trying to do your best...YOU are doing a wonderful job...adding respect to yourself. Don't attack...simply state.

LA- I'm having withdrawal from you NOT bashing me! LOL

It was not disrespectful in the least AmI. And from the perspective that you asked about... I would have taken it for what it was... a reflection of a person that I had become! Sometimes, no matter how it is said, the truth will hurt.
I think you did a great job!

AmI,

That you opened your fingers and typed...give yourself a lot of praise...I do! Lexxy and MEDC are right given that your top priority is to act at all...absolutely.

And I hear in your replies that you do feel as if doing this, being truthful, bringing it, is a means to an end you desire?

That could be where my post to you, changing what you said, differs. I need to clarify what your goal really is...to live this truth, which you bring, or to bring it to get a result you want?

LA

I'm sorry I think I may have not stated what I wanted clearly. I had no intentions of saying that AmI was disrespectful. Please forgive me...Lexxy...I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post...it was merely in reference to WH
being disrespectful...nothing more.

AmI- I'm sorry if you felt I was saying that you were beiing disrespectful...that was not my intentions. I think you did a fabulous job of speaking up!