Just keep remembering that Steve advised you to keep at this calmly -- very matter of fact.
Don't escalate or provoke him into a battle.
Just make your point and retreat.

Thank you all very much. This is exactly why I posted this interaction, to get all kinds of opinions. I think there's always room for improvement!!

Lexxxy, I think you hit on exactly the right thing .... calmly and matter of fact. I was definitely not either .... I was trying to escalate and provoke. Maybe make his feel a little of the battle-worn-ness .... I don't know. I wanted a reaction. I wanted to know that he was feeling a little pang of .... something .... decency, regret, pain .... something.

And I think that's the real problem with it .... I got so worked up about saying soemthing that I lost track of the goal -- the whole plan to make my point and retreat -- and instead, started arguing, trying to prove my point ... which just isn't going to work with him, I don't think.

LA -- my intent, my goal, what I want to do, is to speak my truth, be a mirror, and that's it .... but in this conversation, I got side-tracked and wanted to get a specific reaction. I think you read it just right. It takes so much courage for me to open my mouth with him (or get the fingers going) that I think I just go overboard.

MEDC -- just like a protective big brother. I really appreciate your perspective because you are so similar to my H (not the W version of him -- the real him). I hope that you're right and that this might have gotten through to him a little bit, on some level.

Rin, my buddy. Thank you. I hadn't thought about my disrespect giving him permission to do the same back. That is a really, really good point. Not that it makes his ok, but it doesn't make it ok for me, either. I need to find that middle ground of truthful and respectful. That's ultimately who I want to be....

Tonight's dinner was really, really hard for me. Sitting right next to him, while he's being charming and fun and all the things that he used to be with me .... it just made my heart ache. I wanted to reach out and touch him and just pretend, just for a little while, that everything was all ok. Crazy, huh? When do these mixed up feelings go away??? How can any part of me still want anything to do with him????

-AmI

For me if was the ups and downs of LOVE! one day WH would LB and I was out of the game. The next, H would do something great...the simpliest thing...and I was above the red line...not a lot...but I was there enough to feed me until the next time he LBed.

It was a hard decision to stick it out. I was stuck in the mind set that I would have to deal with this the rest of my life...the bad behavior...not speaking up for myself...fearing my own tongue...fearing being alone... just fearing...

I think Grownup sees what I see sometimes...WH was talking about parenting the kids together...I see that he hasn't moved out and into OW's...perhaps their isn't room...I don't know...but he's still there...it's not like he hasn't have time to find a place...How long ago was you and the kids' trip?

Perhaps I'm too positive and I like to think that everything will work out...he'll realize he's hurts you, my friend, and hurting the kids, and will wake up and smell the [censored] he has gotten you all into. I have faith, but I'm not seeing what you are seeing.

I hear you talk about how he use to be and I hear the love coming from within you...for the real H, the kids...I guess I fear you losing that too. B/c I want you to be happy either way...I may be counting on a miracle that's not there...

AmI,

Grownup pointed out real actions...WH chose to express the "we" and it matters...and what he hasn't done. Very good points to remember...knowing the reality of his actions and inactions is important...if you have to bring reality, you have to stay in it, too. Great catch, Rin.

"LA -- my intent, my goal, what I want to do, is to speak my truth, be a mirror, and that's it .... but in this conversation, I got side-tracked and wanted to get a specific reaction. I think you read it just right. It takes so much courage for me to open my mouth with him (or get the fingers going) that I think I just go overboard."

Okay, then, I'll stay my course. My belief that Plan A is being authentic, acting from your personal code and not choosing based on possible response. You got sidetracked from your old desire to get someone to stop self-destructing and mis-perceiving. It's really old...not just WH, I bet. It happens. Before you speak/type, know your intent and restate it to yourself...to bring reality, be truthful and aware and LET GO the response.

Hey, when I learned archery, I went wide, short, over and way under...until I could hit the target. You're new to this...do you expect to be perfect? Hit a bullseye everytime? You hit two that I saw in your post...you caught an important comparison out of thin air (to me) and you stayed in the conversation, did not avoid...two bullseyes! No self-bashes...just reaffirm your true goal...and accept you will with practice become better and better at it...and relish your achievements, compliment yourself and dance your jig...very important. No bashing when you miss, 'k? And you'll know a hit when your chest swells...and not from holding your breath. LOL.

"Tonight's dinner was really, really hard for me. Sitting right next to him, while he's being charming and fun and all the things that he used to be with me ...."

Small correction here, toots...he was being charming and fun WITH you tonight, too. You were there. He was there. I think I'm calling a technical on that one.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"it just made my heart ache."

His actions made your heart ache? Or did your belief that he isn't doing it for you, doesn't desire or need you? Wanna change that belief? Your choice.

Your feelings are valid...pain is real, ache is real...where it's coming from is what I want to know...will you share with me? I'm not jonesing...you and Rin have been shooting me full...just my desire to know what you find out.

"I wanted to reach out and touch him and just pretend, just for a little while, that everything was all ok."

Great time for an O&H statement. "I enjoy your presence tonight very much. I see you as being very charming and fun. Thank you."

That's not saying you approve of him, that everything's okay...but it could have been just okay for dinner...and your truth matters.

"Crazy, huh?"

Why judge your love? Your choice. You're choosing to see him charming and fun...that's your chosen perception--YOU let that in...if your resentment had hardened, you might not have seen him that way...could have perceived him as a big fake, a manipulating scoundrel unfunny and conniving.

"When do these mixed up feelings go away???"

When you are so grounded in reality that what he does isn't about you...because right now, it isn't. It's all about him.

"How can any part of me still want anything to do with him????"

Because he's an alien with glimpses of real DH...and you choose to love DH...believe in him, remember and KNOW him, separate from his current truth and actions. That's real love, AmI. That's love from your self...best kind. Authentic and real. Why bash yourself for that?

Because I'll do it for you, ya know!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

I'm patiencily trying to wait to hear what SH had to say. Of course, you know I'm hoping he has faith in your M. Oh, the hopeless romantic that I am!

Well, you know me, as long as you're happy!

Rin, the SH appointment is tomorrow. (5 am my time - 6 his -- how in the world does he give rational advice at 6 in the morning???)

It was a hard decision to stick it out. I was stuck in the mind set that I would have to deal with this the rest of my life...the bad behavior...not speaking up for myself...fearing my own tongue...fearing being alone... just fearing...

This is definitley where I am. I'm still trying to stick it out, but I really need to get into a decent Plan B before I lose it completely. And that will probably take filing D papers or he's going to keep hanging around eating cake, I think.

I think Grownup sees what I see sometimes...WH was talking about parenting the kids together...I see that he hasn't moved out and into OW's...perhaps their isn't room...I don't know...but he's still there...it's not like he hasn't have time to find a place...

You are right, and maybe I'm looking at it wrong .... but I think the reason he's still in the house is more about a power play and cake eating than any hope for the M. It's probably pretty nice to have a home to be at and do whatever he wants in whenever he wants to, and then also have someone there to take care of the place and the kids and the bills and real life when he doesn't want to bother, and would rather be out doing whatever (or whoever?) else he wants to do instead. Sounds like a pretty nice life, really. (OK, as I read that over again, I can see one big, long DJ .... )

Perhaps I'm too positive and I like to think that everything will work out...he'll realize he's hurts you, my friend, and hurting the kids, and will wake up and smell the [censored] he has gotten you all into. I have faith

I'm glad that you are positive!! I still hope for it to work out, but then I think I'm crazy for even wanting that at all after all of this. Thanks for keeping some of the positive vibes going for me!


LA --

Grownup pointed out real actions...WH chose to express the "we" and it matters...and what he hasn't done. Very good points to remember...knowing the reality of his actions and inactions is important...if you have to bring reality, you have to stay in it, too. Great catch, Rin.

You're right. I think I get so defensive that I start trying to battle over the truth -- trying to make him understand, make him know, fix him, change him .... whatever, instead of focusing on what really is, in reality, right then. Very bad habbit and a hard one to break. Harder than getting my mouth open, because always before, getting to the point of saying something meant it was time for war. I've got to find a way to get past that.


being authentic, acting from your personal code and not choosing based on possible response.

Back to the basics .... I keep thinking I got this and then realizing that I don't.


Before you speak/type, know your intent and restate it to yourself...to bring reality, be truthful and aware and LET GO the response.

This will help. I get very caught up in what I'm suposed to say, if I'm saying enough ... am I saying the right thing ... trying to make him respond .... if I can try to let go of all that, then maybe I'll be more able to see, and say, the simple truth. Without being aggressive or fighting or giving him a target to point his anger at.


His actions made your heart ache? Or did your belief that he isn't doing it for you, doesn't desire or need you? Wanna change that belief? Your choice.

It was my belief that he wasn't doing it for or with me, that he doesn't want to be that way for or with me anymore .... how do I change that belief? He has flat out said he doesn't want me, doesn't love me, doesn't like being around me .... so how do I change my belief about that without just discounting what he's said? I know that you can't believe what a WS says .... but I'm also not supposed to jsut discount it ... it's his truth, right?


...pain is real, ache is real...where it's coming from is what I want to know...

Pain from the rejection, from the one person I'd give my whole life to -- and have -- telling me that it's not good enough for him anymore. From feeling like a fake when we sit there and chat and laugh with the family, act like a family, have glimpses of what I want back -- my family, happy, together, loving ... but then he keeps checking his cell phone, like he would rather be anywhere else except there .... with anyone else.
(speaking of the cell phone, I really screwed things up last night with that -- I will give more details later).


Because he's an alien with glimpses of real DH...and you choose to love DH...believe in him, remember and KNOW him, separate from his current truth and actions. That's real love, AmI. That's love from your self...best kind. Authentic and real. Why bash yourself for that?

I guess that the glimpses of real DH make it so hard, make it hurt so much worse. I want to fight and kick and scream and hate the WH, but then the glimpses and memories of DH ... I just want to run into his arms and ask my best friend to help me and get me through this ugly battle that I'm fighting. Such completely conflicting feelings for one person ... it's so hard to reconcile that.

-AmI.

Hi AmI,

I'm glad you found a lawyer that will help with the kid situation. You were my last post before I left on an OS trip, and was hoping your situation had stabilized while I was gone. I am sorry your H hasnt come to his senses. It's hard to tell from the thread, are you going straight to D so as to solidify your legal position with the kids, or are you going Plan B? Looks like this is the 3rd dday for you, so Plan A is long out the door, yes? Again, I am sorry. Please take care - Dru

Ok, so I didn't have a lot of time to post details about dinner last night.

Dinner was very, very hard on me. WH was being great and engaging and funny and conversational with everyone else .... but we were sitting right next to each other and both incredibly aware of not accidentally touching or looking directly at each other or anything like that. All I realy wanted to do was reach over and touch him ... I want my real H back so, so badly!

5 or 6 times during the dinner, he kept sneaking out his cell phone and looking at it under the table, sending calls to the voice mail (it was on vibrate, I could just barely hear the soft buzzing), then checking it to see who was calling, and checking texts.

That started really, really bothering me.

So, after dinner was over, my MIL and FIL took all the kids with them to church (they have a church activity on Wednesday nights). My mom, her husband, WH and I were still at the table chatting. WH did the cell phone thing again, and this time got it out and started listening to the voice mail.

Here's my huge, and incorrect DJ ....

I said "WH, it really crushes my heart when you take calls from your girlfriend right in front of me. Can you find somewhere else to do that so I don't have to have it rubbed in my face?"

He said "It's a message from (work friend)." and then he got up to go ... put his hand so perfectly and exactly on my back, just like he used to do .... reached across the table to shake hands with my mom and her husband to say good-bye ... and left (we'd taken separate vehicles because I had come straight from work).

My nerves are so raw and frayed, and I've been in this fight mode for so long that I'm NOT making good decisions when I open my mouth!! That's the piece I need to get out of. Calm, cool, collected, strategic --- I need to be there, not full battle gear all the time -- that's what's becoming so exhausting.


Anyway, I went to pick the kids up, and we got them home and in bed. Then he put his shoes on and was getting ready to leave. He told me where he was going, said I could do whatever checking I needed to do, he's going to work friend's house because the work friend needed help fixing something, and that's why he'd been calling during dinner. I said I don't check on where you are. He said "well, that's 100% where I'll be." And left.

About 5 minutes later, he called. He said that he didn't want to discuss this, that he was on his way to the friend's house, that we are both way too volatile right now and to stop trying to discuss it. I didn't quite get that, since I wasn't trying to discuss anything -- he called me. But I definitely did notice that he was telling me where he was going and accounting for his time -- why do that now?? Maybe because this was a legitimate reason to be leaving, and he's trying to give legitimacy to all the other times? Prove that it was legitimate? I don't know.

About an hour later, he sent me a text message, that he was done at the friend's house, was going to find a newspaper and get a beer. I didn't get the text until this morning (new phone and I don't know how to use it all yet) .... but he was home just a few minutes after he sent it. He didn't mess with me or say anything to me ... just went downstairs by himself.

I cried all night long. I hate this. I feel like I'm losing my mind. One minute all I want to do is fight and wipe him out and make him pay, and then the next minute, all I want to do is go down there and beg him to take me back and hold me and make everything alright.

Ugh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />


-AmI.

Hi, Dru.

I'd like to go to Plan B, but he won't move out of the house. I think I will have to go to Plan D to make that happen.

Things are a little stabilized, at least as far as the kids. They are with me all the time, just like before.

Things between me and WH keep sending me into a tailspin ... exactly the reason I need to get into Plan B as soon as possible!

I hope you had a great vacation!

-AmI.

Hi AmI,

Unfortunately it was work, not vacation... NOW I need a vacation - I'm whooped!

So what do you think his plan was? Did he intent to carry on a long-term A? Was he making moves to get his own place or to D? I'm always astonished that these WS's seem to think they'll be able to carry on like this without any conflict. And to be so blatant as to carry on in public... has he given you any clue to his mind set? What was his plan if you had not caught him again? What was his mindset after dday #2, in April? Did he ever seem remorseful? Do you think he ever stopped seeing her in April, or did he stop for some months and restart?

I know you are very sad right now, I wish I had more to offer. But this too will pass. Dozens of happily divorced people here at MB can tell you that. He's not sounding very admirable right now. I am very sorry - Dru

AmI... go on vacation for a week after your appointment with the lawyer and Dr. H. Find a way to give yourself a break. Dealing with this every day is too much for anyone! Start the divorce proceedings...IMHO, your M is already over and it is time to move on. You deserve better than this. A lot better.

AmI,

I think the comment about the cell phone was fine and exactly what you need to do.

I think it's weird that he's telling you where he is and what he's doing. If I were you, I'd ask him why he's telling you. And I know I keep suggesting that you email him and tell him how you feel, but I still think it's a good idea and maybe now's a good time, based on what he's telling you. It's a good way for you to tell him how you feel and ask him questions. I'd ask him why he wants to separate you and the kids from each other and why he's treated you the way he has. And I'd take the opportunity to tell him that you're glad he's stopped coming into your room at night and waking you and pushing you around. And you can point out how hurtful it's been to have the man that you always loved and respected treat you so terribly when he knows how much you've given to him and the kids. Anyway, it sounds like he might actually be ready for a real discussion and you can get some stuff off your chest, see if you can resolve the issue with the kids, and let him know about how you feel.

MEDC is right, that you need a break from this. I still really believe that you need to take the pressure off yourself. You're doing fine and you're worrying too much about what you say to him. There's one thing (outside of yourself) that you need to be concerned about right now and that's the kids. So... continue being a parent to them and try to keep your conservations with your WH about the kids similar to the way you've always dealt with it. Keep that as close to normal as you can, so that he will have it reinforced that you're their mom.

Try to focus on yourself and the kids and not try to figure him out. Who knows why he's acting like this. He probably doesn't know either. It'll be interesting to hear what Harley has to say about the recent changes in behavior.

AmI, I'm sticking with Grownup...we're going to form a fan club and get AmI printed on our shirts! How about it GU?

This so sounds like what my H did...there was a lot of time that I didn't know where he was from D-day #2 to the day he called and requested NC. And it was still a little rough after NC, I didn't know what to think and I had some lessons to learn! You know, you were around.

He ran late this morning...what's he do when he walks in the door...tells me what happen...he's been doing this a lot now.

AmI, you and I have been a little apart in our reactions, actions...I think I've been a little ahead of you the whole way...

Add that to your book of facts...he's accounting for his time...What else to do have? Make a list...parenting...still there...not being AS disrespectful...actually getting pretty decent...

When's the last time he's touched you? You wanted to touch him that night...he just did it...

You DJed and were on the defensive the entire time...I know you feel the need to protect yourself but looks to me like you could be self-sabotaging...just my opinion!

You do need to relax a little...go get a ME-ssage...LOL

Looking after you the entire way...believing in you...protecting you or at least wanting too! LOL

Get ready for your appointment tomorrow with Steve.

Do you have notes from your interactions in the past week?
Will you be able to tell him whats been said and done?

Remember Steve didn't think you would be able to do this plan for more than a week? Be ready for a new direction!

Any thoughts on what you want that to be? Are you getting tired? Too emotional? Think about how you're feeling so you can give Steve a good idea of where you are at.

Get some rest tonight so you're ready in the morning!

AmI,

How did your appointment go this morning? I sure hope that you got some useful advice and that you're feeling better.

Hang in there.

Inquiring mind here wants to know, too...spill it, AmI!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thinking of you.

LA

Here's the update from this morning's appointment with SH ....

Big things first ....

First, he suggested contacting OW directly. Let her know there's a real person she's affecting, a real family. And let her know (in nice terms) that he hasn't been "exclusive" with her ... that, until I tried to kick him out, he'd been going back and forth between our beds. He thinks WH is probably lying to her telling her that we hadn't been having SF.

YIKES!!

The other big thing was to try to get WH on the phone with SH. He said to focus on the happy, good things -- bring up the hapiness, feeling of belonging, not trapped, being with the person you should be with .... that there's someone who I've been talking to who has some different ideas and perspectives on that, and would WH talk with him. And if that doesn't work, then I say will he do it for me, so that SH can help me better -- help miniize the damage and pain for me.

SH wants to try to affect WH's belief that the M can't be turned around. He still has a heck of a lot more hope for this M than I do.

The rest was kind of reiteration and refining of the plan -- staying with the current plan of bringing truth. I told him I was having a hard time doing it without getting hostile and aggressive and going into fight mode. He was understanding, but said to try to do whatever I could to be as calm and simple as possible. He said it would probably help to focus on enjoying the kids and keeping up fun and routines with them, and drawing some energy from them.

He also said that this is a modified Plan A, but it's still Plan A .... so I had been doing really petty little things, like separating out his laundry and not washing it when I do mine (laundry is normally his job, but I do a few loads a week of just his and my laundry, just to help keep up); or not leaving any light on for him when he comes home at night from "work" -- but pre-A, there was always an outside light and a dimmed inside light; or not leaving him some dinner on the nights that he works .... Just a bunch of dumb, petty things that I'd do just to be ugly, but justified to myself by saying it was how I was showing disapproval of his A. Anyway, SH said to knock that stuff off, and get back into a more proper Plan A, just focusing much more on the kids than on WH. SH asked how my energy level was for all this. I said it's at rock bottom, but I think I can hang on just a little longer if I can focus on the kids and not on WH. He said to try to do that, and to still try to bring up reality with WH whenever I can do it without being aggressive.

(I'm going to need lots of help from you all with that, please!!)

SH said not to file yet, and we talked through some of the pros and cons around tipping my hand on the parenting time thing or not yet. We're going with not for now, because it's more likely to make WH mad and put him into fight mode than to give him a reason to think about trying to fix things. But depending on how the conversation between SH and WH goes, then that will help determine when to file, and that's when I'll be asking for parenting time. WH has made coments to me and his family that he will just take the kids and leave town ... (take his toys and go home) ... so it's kind of touchy to not hit that issue too soon. Not that it's very realistic for him to do that, but if he threw a big enough tantrum, then he might.


Soooooo ..... basically, stick with the plan, hang in there a little bit longer, until I can get WH on the phone with SH. In the meantime, I'm still getting the paperwork ready to file. Still working with the lawyer (giving her the retainer and the first round of financial paperwork on Monday) and will be ready to have him served immediately if he tries another taking the kids stunt or does find a place and moves out.

I have a gift certificate for a massage, and I have it scheduled for today. Hopefully I can go into the next 4 days of him being off work a little less stressed out and tense. Saturday will be easy, since it's DS's birthday party. It's the next three days that I'm worried about!

-AmI.

OOOWWWwww...a ME-ssage! wonderful!

So...you're scared...nervous...what else?

I think it sounds great...heck, invited him to go to the movies with you and the kids...great place to BE...without BEing...

You know I have your back...am I looking forward to hearing what Grownup has to say...


No comment...not bashing...understanding you all the way!

Just had a decent conversation with WH about kids. Nothing big, just schedules, grades, DS got grounded for a day ... no big deal.

No "reality bringing" moments ... not really any available. And GrownUp was in my head saying "show him what a good co-parent you are...." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

At the end of it, he said "thank you" right before he hung up.


And now I'm sitting here feeling like I backed down, and lost my backbone again. Not sure why I feel everything as an extreme .... Full-on war or spineless doormat. In my head I know there's a middle ground, and that it doesn't always have to be a fight. There was nothing fight-worthy in this conversation. No winner or loser .... just basic facts. So I'm not sure why I feel like I "lost" this one. Like not fighting means I gave up something....?

I'm can't wait for this massage. I think I'm WAAAY over-thinking everything!!!

-AmI.

AmI-

There's no winner or loser in this sitch...do you remember LA telling me separate but equal...creating a win win situation...YOU BOTH won...you commincated without refuting...NO Fighting...no refuting....

Bring the truth is not fighting...aren't you in the process of learning that?

There's a time and a place for everything and then was not the time...you know when it is!

I have FAITH IN YOU! Look how far you have come!