I think Inadaze brings up a really good point.

What are you doing for yourself? Can you disappear for a while and leave him with the responsibility?
Go out with some girlfriends on his night off. Leave him home with the kids. Come home really really late.

Have you considered Steve's suggestion to contact OW?

Daze,

Thanks for your posts, I didn't see them before I posted.

You make a great point. He was supposed to be off last night, but got called in. It's pretty convenient that I was there so he didn't have to worry about what to do with the kids. I haven't done anything to not be so available to him. That's a really, really good point. I have a girlfriends thing tonight, I think I will go to that and stay late. He can do dinner and baths and bedtime, the whole deal. I have these that I can do every Monday night ... and he's off on Monday's ... so maybe that's a good plan.

I had thought about going out on the Saturdays that he's off (every other weekend), too. My big problem with that is that all of my girlfriends are married with families and doing family stuff, or are WAAAYY harder partiers than I am, and it just isn't much fun to go out with them. So I need to find some new people, I guess. I'm starting to go to a divorce care group on Wednesday, maybe I will meet some people in similar sitch's there.

As far as meeting WH's needs .... that's part of the modification to Plan A that SH has me making. I'm not working to intentionally try to meet WH's needs. There are some natural ones that are just happening, financial security, domestic support, etc. But I'm not actively trying to meet his needs. I'm focusing much more on the kids -- which is helping save my sanity. WH never filled out the EN survey, but if I had to guess, his needs, in order, would be Admiration (I can't remember the actual name of that one?), Recreational Companionship, Domestic Support, and SF. I'm taking care of the house and kid stuff .... and occasional RC if he joins the kids and I ... but not the other things.

I think you have a really great point about not being so available .... and that's something that's not too hard to fix, either. I'll definitely be taking some steps in that direction asap. Starting tonight, even!

Thanks!
-AmI.

The monday night thing is great! You definately don't want to go too out of your character or WH will think you are only doing it to make him jealous, etc. But do some things for you, that you want to do. These are the things I did for myself, the added benefit was that it made my FWH also take notice. I started losing weight (gotta love that infidelity diet, LOL), I started dressing like I used to before I became a mom. Nothing sleaxy just a little sexier and form fitting. I started getting my nails done, highlighting my hair, taking bubble baths, things I used to do when I was single. Just started taking pride in myself. I don't know if you are doing these things already or were even before d-day. I wasn't, I really just became a mom and stopped being an individual.

I didn't always go out with friends, I had the same problem, most of mine were married. I also did not want to go out and party too much b/c I didn't want to give FWH any more ammunition or justifications. I would go out dancing with some friends occasionally but mostly I would go to dinner, or continue to do things that we had done as a family but without him. Our friends had become my friends and this really got to FWH that he was no longer included. He didn't understand why we no longer came as a package deal to our friends. Sometimes this included the kids sometimes he had the kids and I went by myself.

I also would just take the time that he had the kids and go window shopping or whatever. He didn't know what I was doing. If he asked I didn't lie but I also didn't offer it up on my own either.

I understand about the modified plan A. I wouldn't go to much out of my way to meet his EN's since SH told you not to but you might throw it in there once in awhile. Can't really do too much but the admiration. This was also a big one for FWH. I would just compliment him here and there. Or when he does something to meet your needs or make you feel good about yourself let him know it made you feel good. Like when he was bragging about your cake. Just a simple thank you, or that meant alot to me, etc.

Have fun tonight.

LA,

Those are perfect. I need a little version of you sitting on my shoulder all the time, telling me what to say! I freeze when I need to say something, with not knowing what to say. And with this fear of saying it wrong if I do get my mouth open.

"Practicing O&H statements...so that with or without WH, you will live a truthful, intimate life."

This is the biggest, hardest thing that I'm still trying to learn. Those old patterns are so deeply ingrained: don't rock the boat, don't say anything if it's not nice, don't speak up, don't upset anyone, make everyone happy .... and when you do finally speak up, it's fight time, so come out clawing. Those are things I know better than, and know I want better than, but so far haven't been able to change much of the automatic behavior.

I have a list of things that have been suggested on here to say, and I stand in front of the mirror practicing them all the time. I try to sit and identify what I'm feeling, and then figure out how to say it .... and by then it's days past usefulness. But I practice the statements anyway.

I get the concept, it's really hard for me to turn that into behavior. I read the O&H statements that you suggest and think "that's exactly what I meant, how come I can't come up with that to say?"

-AmI.

"Have you considered Steve's suggestion to contact OW?"

Yes, I think I would have to ask her "what are your plans with MY husband and MY kids? You do realize that he's still living with me and the kids as a family?" Perhaps say "You do realize he's just using you, and by the way what is that smell that he has when he comes home, it's a horrible pet smell of some kind?"

Instead of saying it to WH say it to her, make she go crazy trying to clean everything. Didn't Pep or O suggest saying something like that to WH.

AmI, IMHO, I think you can turn this thing around! Remember I called OW, she lied about the whole thing. Remember I told WH that OW said he was lying about the A, and I thought he was a liar too, and said "So, we're both calling you a liar!" Didn't that bring some reality to him? Don't you think you can use your conversation with her to bring some reality? You may be really amazed at what that will produce!

Just do yourself a favor, when you do call her, DO NOT take anything she says personally...it's just information! This call is to stir the [censored]! Bring Reality to her!

Still standing by your side...proud to by your friend...so when are you going out and partying like everyone suggested? LMAO

AmI,

This is just an idea that I'm throwing out, trying to think of a workable solution to your dilemma. Is there a way that the kids could be at the house all the time, but you and your WH could switch off? What I mean is that the days he works and you care for the children, he does not live in the house, but makes other arrangements. Then on his days off, he stays at the house and you stay with a friend or family member. That way, you can do a modified Plan B, but still not leave the house. You'd have to make it clear that you are living in the house and that he can not come home at all on the days you have the house.

First, I wanted to check and see if it's even workable logistically for you. And even if it is, you obviously would have to get your WH to agree to it. If you approached it that you are hurt so deeply, that his coming and going from his girlfriend's is too painful and disruptive to your lives for you to continue on any longer like this. Neither one of you wants to abandon the kids and they need both of you. And it's best for the kids if there's no disruption in their routines or living arrangements, so until the divorce (wonder what he'd say to that) is underway, you need to consider them first, but be able to find some holding pattern where the children don't have to suffer until the property is settled and he finds new living arrangements.

Anyway... not the best situation, but maybe better than you're in. I just wonder if you can appeal to his decency to get him to do it. Just an idea.

I'm sorry that this is so difficult for you. The only reason that I'm not completely to MEDC's position is because you said this is out of character for your WH. You've both been through a very difficult few years. I do have a problem with MB principles sometimes when I see people Plan A'ing WS's who are obviously completely awful people who will never be decent spouses. The big question is if your WH can ever figure out why he's doing this and become a reasonable person again. I hope so. In the meantime, you're doing really well. I'm glad that you're getting the papers ready to file. That ought to get him to realize how serious this is and that he can't count on you being there -- that he may have completely blown it permanently.

Good to know you're practicing...and giving yourself conscious permission to speak...sounds like you are really in touch with where those permissions were revoked (growing up) and giving them back to yourself.

You described the process very well...that loop...especially the permission when to speak being when to refute, attack back or fight...awesome understanding, well stated.

Can you tell me why you don't do that here, on MB?

LA

I will respond to other posts in a few minutes.

First, I wanted to get some advice on how to word a request to WH to talk to SH.

SH said to ask WH to call him, to focus on happiness, feeling like he's where he belongs, and with the person he belongs with, not trapped .... etc. To tell WH that I've been talking to someone who has some different ideas on that, and will WH please call him, too. And then if that doesn't work, then ask him to do it for me so that SH can help me understand and heal.

This is one that I will need to practice a lot. I could really use some help with a script. I'm even thinking about sending an e-mail or something instead .... this makes my heart race to think about bringing up, and I can't imagine bringing it up without tears.

I want to get him asked, and hopefully even on the phone with SH this week, so I need to do it pretty quickly. The D papers will be ready soon, and I think it will be much harder to get him to call once he's been served.

Anyone have any tips? I'd like to do this tonight after I get home, if I can.

Thanks.
-AmI.

Grown-Up .... That's actually a fairly decent thought. I might kick that around a little bit. I'm not sure if WH would go for it or not ... probably not on the weekend days, because he wants to see them, then .... but it might be something that we could figure out. Thanks for that idea! He's out looking at houses today.... (I think).

LA ... Why I don't attack and fight here? I don't know ... because there really isn't much to fight here, I guess? Maybe I'm more in the "don't make waves" category, here? I'm not sure .... maybe I'm not getting the question.... I don't hold back until I explode here, but there isn't really anything to explode from, here, either.... can you help me dig on this a little more? Maybe I can figure out where to get that truth to come from that needs to come out ....

-AmI.

SH wanted to get my H on the phone to, like you I struggled with how to do this. We were finally having a discussion about divorce and I started telling FWH about the Love Buster questionnaire that SH had me fill out based on what I thought FWH would say ABOUT me (does that make sense?) Anyway, I asked FWH if he would mind reading through it to see if I was even close to the way he felt. He not only read through it he wrote comments all over it. I then told him that I understood he had no desire to go to counseling for our marriage but would he mind talking to SH so SH could help me adjust to the idea of divorce. FWH agreed but wanted to make it perfectly clear he was only doing it to help me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. He did talk to SH one session but would not talk to him anymore than that. I think SH made a few good points to FWH about meeting needs, etc.

SH also suggested FWH read HN/HN and FWH was interested but is not much of a reader. I ended up buying the book for him, he did not even crack it open until I gave him my plan B letter. When he wrote me the letter telling me he was ready to reconcile and come home he actually mentioned some things that I know came right out of his conversation with SH and from HN/HN. So even if it doesn't seem like he gets much out of it at the time it does sink in there somewhere admist the fog.

I cannot advise you on how to get him to call Steve...only you know what he will respond to. What I can absolutely advise you about is this: DO NOT LET HIM ON THE MB SITE TO FILL OUT THE FORM STEVE NEEDS PRIOR TO THE CALL.

My H agreed to talk to Steve last May so I set up the form through the url Steve gave me.....as soon as H filled out the form and hit send, he browsed the MB site and said he would not call Steve after all, he knows what Steve is going to say and he is not going to fire OW.

Steve and I spoke a couple of more times, but he really could not help our situation without H's cooperation. The rest is a long story, but please take my advice if he agrees to consult with Steve. Keep him off this website. If Steve needs the form filled out, you do it.

And what is there to attack or fight in WH? Really?

We all have a clean slate with you...in your mind, give one to WH right now...what he's doing right now is his...not yours...not about you...so Plan A remains...your influence is being limited by him...doesn't mean you don't put it out there for you...

We don't attack what doesn't seem attacking...we don't jump all over a fire hydrant...though we may kick it if we get a ticket from parking in front of it...sorting out why we're attacking someone else (and yes, I know he's attacking your marriage by having his A) is solid information only we can know.

And if we're attacking someone which goes against our intent, our desire...then looking within to see if we're attacking someone to stop us from attacking ourselves...which I did A LOT! Discerning what we're doing and why trains the brain that we don't want to act automatically...not any more.

If you perceived I was attacking you, maybe you would attack back here...your mind is open, choosing to trust and consider...we haven't betrayed you...I understand this...however, if you want to get into the mindset to speak your truth, not attack, then not seeing WH as attacking YOU will aid you in your desire greatly, don't you think?

If you think of him as doing drugs...not coming home because he's doing drugs...what do you feel?

LA

Hi AmI -
I usually follow your sitch - just don't post often.

I have been counseling with SH as well and he asked me the same thing. The difference in our situations is that my WH always agreed to "think about thibgs" in order to keep me as an option (I know that's a DJ LA, but I am saying it anyway).

I was preparing to send this e-mail to him, but I ended up being able to ask in person. My WH has been out of the house for 9 months now. I don't know if any of it will help you, but that's how I got him to commit to an appt. - by asking for a favor for me.

BTW, your husband will not have to fill out the form that we do. Steve says just to get them to make the call.

""Dear WH,

I hear in your last e-mail that you are still struggling with a decision; trying to sort things out.

As you know, I have been doing the same. I have recently been talking with a counselor by the name of Steve Harley. His father is the one who wrote the book that I gave you.
He has a lot of ideas that we haven't considered that I think are worth looking into.

I am asking you for a favor. Would you please call him and hear what he has to say?

I am not asking you to go to counseling.

I am not asking you for any kind of commitment.

I am not going to misinterpret this and get my hopes up.

This is for information only; maybe we can get a better understanding of what it would take to resolve this situation.

I don't see how we can say something is impossible without even knowing what it would take for it to be possible.

One phone call is all I am asking for. Just listen to what he has to say. Please let me know if you will do this for me and I will set it up.

Love, Lizzie"

Hey, sis! Just wanted to see how things are going before I head to bed.

I wish I could offer some words of wisdom but you are at a point that I am not familiar with. However, I still believe and have hope that if you continue on your path something good will come out of this!

From my POV, you are still early on in the game. As I see it, the A started in Jan.! My H's PA began last May, who knows how long the EA was going on. I know it's a long time to deal with, it was extremely hard for me fighting for NC, and trying to decide whether I could move on, forgive not only H but myself for my part.

I just think if your WH was serioous about moving out that he would have done it by now. I could be very wrong. But like my WH told me "OW has nothing to offer him!" I don't see this OW having anything to offer your H either.

You've already proven that you CAN go for the gold, it's just a matter of running the race. Think you can get another wind? There's an achiever in you for a reason, just like there is me! One way or another AmI, we're going to succeed.

In 93' my BF broke up with me to return to his XGF, that summer I cried my eyes out. I worked 3 jobs to pay for my college. When I got back, I heard that XBF was going to try out for the cheerleading squad! What a joke I thought that was. So, I said to myself, if he can be a cheerleader (yes, he made it), I can try out for the powerlifting team! I did, and coach thought I was a valuable asset to the team, even stated it on the campus newspaper.

I trained all year long, still getting over XBF and dating what became H. It was a rough year, before going to nationals, I had only competed one other time. Sad to say now, I don't even remember what place I took. Come time for Nationals, which was held in Tulsa, OK, I wouldn't allow anyone including H to come and support me.

I was so excited to be competeing in a national competion, who would have thought that me...4'11'' weighing 117lbs would be going up against some worthy opponents. I didn't that was for sure! I made it through my squats and benches without a problem.

On my last deadlift for 265, my knee twisted and I tore some ligments and some tendents. I was very upset, instead of placing 3rd, I took 5th in my weigh class.

The next year I was back at it, fearful, but back training! Come competition time, I was ready! Phyically that is...mentally I was a nervous wreck and I bombed out on the squatting...no benching...no deadlifting. I never lifted competitivily again because I let my fear get the best of me. I would have loving to go back to national and do better but I don't regret any part of it.

I did my best and learned some valuable lessons...it was a fear that I let stop me in my tracks. Don't let your fear stop you from doing what you want the most b/c you can't have that back. Do your best every day AmI and you won't regret any part of what you've done either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tonight I went to my girlfriends thing and found out I had the wrong night. It's only on the 2nd and 3rd Mondays of the month now, I guess.

But I stayed out anyway ... and got a pedicure (that took TWO HOURS and was just heaven, and I have the cutest little red toes now to show for it). Then I went shopping for a while ... no serious buying, but it was fun to just browse around and check things out without a purpose....Got home about a quarter to ten .... kids were in bed and WH was showering in my room. I went in to put my purse away and said something to the dog, and as I was leaving, WH started talking to me about his sister calling and some drama that she had going on over there. So we were just hanging out chatting while he was in the shower ... it was like old times.

Then he wandered around the house a little bit, still chatting, and just as I was getting up the nerve to talk to him, he headed down to the basement and turned his TV on ... so I finished straightening up the kitchen, then went down there.

I knocked on the wall and asked if I could come down for a minute, and he said "Whatever." I sat down across from him and said "I need to ask you a favor..." It was amazing how fast his posture and manner got super defensive when I said that ... his jaw locked and he wouldn't look at me, he turned the TV up .... and was flipping through the channels....

But I plowed ahead anyway. Lizzie, I ended up needing some of your lines, so I appreciate them!! I said I'd been talking to a new counselor, and he had really helped me .... (this is about where I started crying, I hate that I do that sometimes!) .... that he had a lot of ideas I had never thought about before about marriage .... happiness, being with the person you belong with, not being trapped, etc. That he'd really been helpful to me and that he'd like to talk to WH, would WH consider calling him. WH said he didn't have any interest in any of that. So I said that I wasn't asking WH to make any commitments or do anymore M counseling, that I didn't have my hopes up and wasn't trying to change him, but that I really needed help and that SH would like to talk to him to be able to help me. He didn't respond, but did mute the TV .... So I kept going. I told him that SH is a counselor, so it wasn't like he could just report things back to me that WH had said, and that there was no need to get into any of the legal things or worry about me using anything for legal leverage -- that it wasn't about any of those things, so he didn't have to talk about them.

He never did look at me, but did say he guessed he wouldn't be opposed to it.

So I jumped on that and asked if I could set up an appointment for him, and he nodded and said I know his schedule. Then turned the TV back up. I told him thank you and left the room.


So .... he agreed. That was incredibly scary. But he agreed. So now I just need to get it all set up. I hope SH has a clear schedule this week.

Also ... WH is home tonight, and looks like he intends to stay that way. His wallet and phone and keys and everything are still in my room from when he showered, and he'd be sure to have them if he was planning on going anywhere.

Also, he got off early last night, but not by much ... and he came straight home. And Saturday morning, when he didn't come home until after 5 ... I heard through the grapevine (not from him, so it wasn't just his covering excuse) that he'd been in the work parking lot with a bunch of the guys, trying to fix his truck where another guy had hit it and bent the front end so that it was rubbing on the wheel. He'd come home after his shift and got a tow chain and some tools .... then went back there and all the guys who were working the night shift all got out there and were pulling and fixing and standing around shooting the breeze. I heard this from a very reliable source who normally helps me catch WH when he's not at work when he says he is, so I believe it.

I'm trying very, very hard not to get my hopes up. Trying very hard to live in right now, and not predict the future.... I don't know if Steve will be able to help, but it can't hurt to try. And even if it doesn't work, I'm still getting the D papers ready. Whole new meaning to Plan A and Plan B, huh?

-AmI.

It's amazing, isn't it? I never thought that my WH would agree to talk to Steve either. At first he agreed to listen only, and then only for a half-hour. I was going to take the remainder of the appointment, but WH used the whole hour and actually talked with Steve.

Steve didn't get too specific with WH or go into details - just planted the seeds of recovery in there.

My WH has since contacted me. I am very cautious and trying to work this out on my thread, so who knows?

Isn't Steve great to talk to? It is worth every penny.

Doing the dance of Joy with you AmI! I'm wishing you the best.

So, what should I do? Cross my fingers, sit on my hands, play with my hair...what do you plan to do in the mean time?

You have got to love when they answer "whatever." it must come in the handbook of waywards, under the section called "Behavior when S asks questions." Doesn't matter what the question is...LOL...I wonder what it says under the section "Behavior when OW asks questions."

DID you see that I learned a very valuable lesson on focusing on the positive and not the negative yesterday? I had to kick myself around for a few minutes! LOL Anothr one of those lessons you thought you learned but YOU DIDN'T! I think that's when you came in and I was writing about L going to school.

THe reason I mention it is that I think it was a post worth sharing again and again and of course from LA. I can copy the post info should you want to read it again.

Climb that mountain, AmI...all your hard work and training will payoff...regardless of the result!

Well, I'm going to head back to bed...I can't wait to hear more tomorrow!

Yeah!!! I'm so proud of you AmI!!! It still amazes me how much alike WS's all are. And also us BS's. Goodluck, can't wait to hear how his appt. goes.

Also, I'm so glad you took the night for yourself and didn't just go back home.

Thanks. I'm pretty cautious about getting too optomistic here .... but getting him to at least agree to talk to Steve is a start.

I have appointments set up for Friday. Will see how it goes. D papers should also be ready on Friday. So, depending on how the call goes, he could be served this weekend, or Monday.

Feels kind of strange doing this double track ... hoping for something good, but preparing for the worst. Is that a betrayal? "Hey, WH ... talk to Steve, give me some hope (maybe even plant seeds for some hope for yourself?), oh, and BTW, here are the D papers."

Feels very underhanded and sleazy to me. But on the other hand, it also feels like a safety net, having something to fall back on.

-AmI.

"But on the other hand, it also feels like a safety net, having something to fall back on."

I'm glad you said this b/c I was wondering if you actually thought that you were going to be able to make a decision based on one phone call?

Have you been keeping up with Lizzie's thread?