I am so sorry you have had a terrible day. He is a jerk and knows exactly how he is hurting you. Right now, he does not care. Just continue doing what you are doing and see what Friday brings. If he does not keep that appointment, I would have him served D papers before the weekend is over.
{{{AMI}}}
Hang in there.

Please recognize that there is a LOT of manipulation in his words to you.

He wants you to make this easy on him...To agree that its too far gone to fix...To make this "easy on the kids" (as if thats possible...).. To stop fighting...

DO NOT AGREE TO:
Be friends
Amicable divorce
Settle this without lawyers

If you are losing the ability and hope to fight for your marriage, its time to get him out. But only file if that is your only way to go to plan B and protect yourself.

AmI,

You're doing so well. The one thing that struck me from the IM conservation was that he said that you are the kids' mom and the best thing that happened to them. So, it does sound like he's open to keeping you in their lives, no matter what. But, then he had to be a WS d*ck and threaten. sigh...

Anyway... if you decide that you want to keep trying, there are signs of hope. I think it's really good that you're talking. And you did not act aggressive one time or make snarky comments -- just straight from the heart.

Since he's not seeing her every time he can and he's doing the transparency thing a bit.... and.... he's got all the secrecy removed, everyone knows he's with her and what he's done to you and no one is impressed one bit by it. The lack of the secret thrill and the shame (and her being a cop [email]wh@re)[/email] should start wearing on him.

The one thing I think you should bring up in your conversations is that you miss your best friend, that you hardly recognize him now and if someone had told you that he'd do what he's done, and get involved with a woman who he would've looked down on before, that you never would've believed it. That it hurts to see what's happened and you want to know what's caused such a huge character change in him. That's not growing apart. That's him. And when he says you grew apart, you might point out that life throws horrible things at people. When his ex-wife treated him and his kids horribly and deserted them, he chose to take care of his kids and build a new life with someone who loved him and respected and him and cared for his children. Now that you two have been through a rough time, his response has been to throw everything away and become someone you don't even know. Why?

Ask him the real questions. Make him think. Make him take responsibility. Tell him that the last few years have been h*ll for you too. But, you chose to stick by him and the children and do the right thing, no matter how much you were hurting. Try to get him to think of cause and effect so he can try to figure out why he's behaving like this.

You're doing great. And you have an exit plan when you can't take anymore. When he says things need to be easy, ask him what he means by that. Make him explain himself, instead of making trite little statements. You're being calm and gentle and loving. Keep pouring love into the kids. It's what you need, it's what they need and it's showing him what he's throwing away.

I know we're all just cyber people here, but I just want to say that I feel so proud of you. You are obviously a really wonderful person, filled with integrity, intelligence and love. You've taken the high road the whole way. You can feel proud of yourself no matter what happens.

I really thought about going in and confronting them. I was going to say, nice and loud ... "It's not enough for you to be committing adultery and destroying your family, now you have to flaunt your mistress out in public, and right next to my office, too?" I was even practicing it in the car when I was parked behind the hotel.

But I didn't want to jeopardize the chance that he will talk to Steve on Friday. That was the one thing that stopped me.

-AmI.

Take that chance, if you get it again...you might lose the call but you will/can gain so much more. You have more self-control than I do. I would have walked straight in there without a single thought in mind. Emotions and all!

He brought her to a place right by your office?

He's really trying to push your buttons. He was probably trying to get you to confont them and make a scene so he could back out of the Harley appt.

When you talk to him next time, calmly ask him why he'd bring her where he knew you would see her. He needs a light shone on his behavior big time. Ask him how he'd feel if you were doing that to him. And just silently wait until he answers.

It's important for you to catch him, AM.

He's likely to take her to the SAME PLACE...so I would discourage you from talking to him about the location.

WSes are foggy..not logical..they are like DRUG FIENDS..so he is not going to be able to tell you WHY he did anything. If he tells you anything, it's most likely to be a LIE...

This is the nature of a WS...

I can answer this one for you. He took her to where he found it easiest and most convenient to see her. IMO, he's trying to maintain his HIGH today...

Be careful with such confrontation during PLAN A..He wants you to lose. He wants to you to provide ammunition that he can use to justify the A to himself.

So, mimi are you saying that in a situation like that AmI did well to keep her composer?

And are you saying that she residence or work could be close by?

AmI- Is he working tonight? What would he be doing at that time of the day? The reason I ask is to find out if it was convenient for him, distance from home or distance for her? Am I making any senses here? Mimi should I even attempt to try and figure that out? Is there any point to it?

I think she needs to eventually CATCH him...I caught my FWH twice..and I think the DISCOVERIES/EXPOSURES were key...

Unfortunately, I wasn't CALM in either case.

I said CALMLY because it would have been in a PUBLIC PLACE and I don't want her to get into trouble..and she has to be prepared so as not to get TOOO emotional and go crazy like I did...I think on both occasions my FWH became VERY EMBARASSED by my DISCOVERIES...

Good point, AMI..on holding back because of wanting him to do the Steve H. call...

But you really need to know as much as possible about the OW. She is your enemy and is trying to destroy you and your family.



Any knowledge is power..but you can't tell the WS that you are trying to figure this out. YOU ARE FIGHTING THE ENEMY and you have to know what you are dealing with and how you can DEFEAT her...where they go..where she lives..where she works, etc.

As Noodle says, this will make him FURIOUS when you find out this information. However, most importantly, you will GAIN HIS RESPECT and he will learn that you care enough to FIGHT FOR HIM.

IMO, it's not a good idea to engage him in too much CONVERSATION or RELATIONSHIP TALK. Use simple phrases that you repeat over and over again. WSes are so FOGGY and not rational. His major goal is his NEXT FIX with her. Your ACTIONS are key right now..probably in preparation for PLAN B. He needs to have VISUAL MEMORIES of YOU and what you have done during this time..so that he will MISS YOU.

"Now you know he doesn't really want to move on but feels he's done too much to repair."

I'm really not sure where you get that.
I dont wish to be a wet blanket. But on the flip side, if no-one else is going to say it, I guess I will, so that Ami doesnt get too carried away on what might not be true. (it might... but it might not)

To my reading, the IMs sounds like comments from a guy who (at the current time at least) has 100% made up his mind, feels completely justified about what he is doing, and resents any attempt to try to change his mind.

To me, him saying, "there's no turning back", just means, "I dont WANT to turn back".

I do not see one word of regret in his messages. only statements of inevitability, and self-justification.
The "there's no turning back", is self-justification just as the "we drifted apart" junk is.
I dont count "i'm sorry this hurts you" as regret about what he is doing.

The "it's too upsetting for you" thing at the end, seems like a coward's way out of, "I dont want to talk about this any more, I dont want to discuss it further, I'm just going to do what I want to do".

AmI - you are welcome to e-mail me. I used to work in an environment that gave me a lot of strength and insight when I needed it most and I'd be happy to share - I believe some of the resources I have would really bless your life right now.

I heard all of what your WH said to you in the IM directly from my WH...and we're recovered.

Might or might NOT.

Fog is no-one-knows-land...choose to follow what you want most, not based on what he says he wants...that changes, like the fog, shifts in and out.

Stay centered in reality and truth...know what he thinks and leave it there. You can't know what he doesn't even know, 'k?

I believe in you...all the way. Look at this love, support, because you share who you really are...WH doesn't have a clue.

LA

LA, my BUD...

I was just getting ready to make a post with the SAME MESSAGE as yours...

It's so important not to LISTEN to FOGESE...

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS for ALIENS...

OH MY....Good minds think alike..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KA -- got it, thank you!

It's a late night, and I'm pretty wrung out so this is a quickie and I will respond more tomorrow -- sorry.

I really appreciate all the input on the IM. I'm feeling pretty proud of myself for how I handled it, even though it did get a little too long. At least it got out and didn't get nasty. I really have no idea how to interpret most of what he said, I think I've given up on too much of trying to figure him out. I don't think he even knows what he means most of the time. I think Noodle has him pretty well-pegged, though.

I went to a divorce care class tonight, which I was dreading a little bit, but was actually pretty good. It got into some of the clinical things behind some of the feelings and emotional roller coaster ... which helped a lot to hear ... I don't feel quite so crazy anymore. It also has practical, specific steps for working through some of the emotional, physical and mental things that come with all of this. I really liked that -- I'm a very practical, plan-based kind of person. I met three other women there who I really clicked with and can see becoming friends with, and ended up in a pretty diverse small group, which I think will be good. That connection piece is the part I'm most looking forward to, I've been so caught up in kid and mom and wife world for so long that I'm looking forward to making some IRL friends that I can do things with outside of that.

My mom picked the kids up from church, so I got to have a long talk with her after they went to bed, and that was nice.

And now I am dead tired and wrung out and glad to be going to bed without having to see WH tonight or wonder where he is, since he's working. He'll be working through Saturday night, now ... and I like getting that break.

Thanks, everyone. I don't know what I'd do without this place .... I hope you all know how much I appreciate you.

-AmI.

What the BS hears:

WS: hurt, pain, move on, one way, no way, go away.....hurt hurt stab, pain.

What the rest of us hear:

Ws: Babble babble babble...blah blah blah.


Ami, you haven't given him anything to miss and right now he can't comprehend what u r saying. So don't waste your breathe telling him he is hurting you. Like a drunk out of control, he can't stop and he doesn't want to stop so don't try to make him stop.

You know the rule when you are in a spin out, which way to turn the wheel? Opposite direction or into the spin? Both are scary but one has better odds.....until you can get back control of the vehicle.

Ok....reverse babble time. U ready? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So you bit your tongue because you want him to talk to Steve. That's good, but I'll bet the WS thought he'd pull a big one over you. ha ha ha!!! Now the smart thing is to let 'em think that way. At least 4 now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.

I usually agree with Orchid on things... but not this.
He could stop... he chooses not to. The WP frequently gets compared to an addict or drunk on MB... and I get the comparison... but it is not really accurate. It is just a way to help the BS understand what is going on. But make no mistake about it... her H could choose to stop this madness anytime he wants.



If you keep your eyes where you want to go... your hands will follow naturally. You turn to the direction you want the front of your car (life) to go. That's true of cars and life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mk you said:



The Harleys are very clear in their books and in their coaching sessions that they consider an affair to be an ADDICTION. In the first chapter of SAA, Dr. Harley states that this recognition has accounted for the SUCCESS of his APPROACH.

Steve Harley himself said to me, despite my initial reluctance, "YOU HAVE GOT TO GET THIS"..your H is ADDICTED to the OW.

So according to the MB VIEWPOINT, seeing the WS as an addict is indeed ACCURATE.

Oh, it's a definite addiction. Like a horse with blinders, there is only one way to go. There is almost no reasoning with any person at this time.

It's amazing the changes that occur once the WS is cut off from his source of a fix. The reality starts to break through, and for brief moments, you get to talk to your spouse again. Hang in there, AmI. Take care of you first.

Sure felt like an addiction to me.

An addiction to alcohol or drugs is something that results in a chemical dependancy to the product. People are truly physically addicted. I get that there is an emotional "addiction" but there is nothing but the waywards selfishness and uncaring attitude that stops them from seeing the damage that they are doing to the BS.
But, yes, I understand the comparison to an addict... it makes sense...