Orchid: Yes he could stop but if you listen to enough WS, even through the babble, this A disease makes then walk funny, talk funny, look funny, smell funny, eat funny, act funny, etc. Most of it very much out of character of the real person they once were. Also very much out of control and therein lies the statement. Like an addiction. Maybe my term 'drunk out of control' wasn't accurate enough.

Listen up to what some Xws' have to say.....most can't believe they were sooo stupid.


Orchid: Yea but if you can't keep your eyes focused, then where do your hands go? Telling people to turn into a spin does help. I had the displeasure of testing that out one slightly rainy day. Short spin out. Ha.... betch you all thought I was a slow old lady driver. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I wasn't going fast, had just made a left turn onto an expressway and hit light but long oil slick on the road. I remember what I was taught and went into the turn. Not hard. I was able to regain my compsure and control in time to see me at a 90 degree angle with the opposite traffic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Feeling pretty silly by then. So on top of being scared, I felt stupid. But you know what? I wasn't driving fast, it just happened. I still had to deal with it (me and about 3 other cars) but there was no accident. Just a bunch of embarressed drivers who were getting chuckles from the other lane. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So it is with when dealing with the WS. They think they are slick.....we may get some funny stares or even get laughed at due to our techinques (reverse babble for one) but once we regain that control.....watch out.

NOTE: The moment of feeling out of control is a temporary thing. I think most BS while in that state, don't realize it. That in itself c/b a life-saver.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks for the post... you make some good points... but calling it a disease.... hmmm... almost as though it is out of their control. Sorry, I will never buy that. And if they had character, they NEVER would have dropped their pants in the first place. JMHO.

AmI,

Looking forward to hearing about SH session...thinking of you this morning...isn't it beautiful outside?

I thought of you while driving to work...there was this huge angel wing in the otherwise clear blue sky...touching the edge of the sunrise all the way up to the sky's apex. A bit like a silhouette scribble, like Hitchcock's...only with brushed white edges, trailing east...and the outline was of an angel wing...constructed of dawning, feathery white on each edge of a wing...all the way down...

I thought of your double rainbow...

So I named it for you, AmI...it's a liberal sky...because all the wings were left ones.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,
I don't always agree with your take on things... but I always enjoy reading your posts. If you are not a "professional" writer... you should consider it! You paint a wonderful picture with your words.
MEDC

Just thinking of you and hoping that things go smoothly!

((((((AmI))))))

Thank you, MEDC, for your post. You touched my heart.

LA

WH's appointment is right now. I'm ***really*** hoping he made the call ... and am fighting the urge to go check in or call to make sure he did. My appointment is in a couple of hours, so I'll be able to update more after that.

Oh, as I was typing that, WH called me ... said he called and got the voice mail, so left a message .... My apointments are always super early in the morning, so I've never had him not be on time to one .... anyone know if SH will call back or????

-AmI.

Tell your H to try back after about 10 minutes I did and Steve picked up.

I think the only time Steve IS on time is those first morning appointments! I never mind waiting because I know that when he calls back (and he always does) that I will have his full attention for as long as I need it (within reason of course). They tell you when you first make the appointment to leave a message every 10 minutes until he returns the call.

Don't get your hopes up here. Steve is dealing with a very fog-bound, cake-eating wayward, but he has a way of planting seeds...

The fact that your WH is even willing to make the call is huge, IMO.

Thinking of you today and will be waiting for the update.

The office called back and said they are pretty backed up. They re-scheduled WH into my slot, and gave me a later time this afternoon.

Hope Steve wasn't wanting to get out of there early for a Friday!

I was also pretty glad that WH actually made the call. Just that was more than I was hoping for. Now my hopes are just up to hoping he calls back this afternoon. I don't expect any miracles, but some seed-planting can't hurt.

I'm visualizing LA's liberal sky and trying not to obsess about this.

-AmI.

ROFLMAO....I'm going to be doing back flips with all the excitment!

Remember on Willy Wonka and the Choclate Factory...the look on Gene Wilder's face right before the wacavator shot through the roof with Charlie and his Grandpa.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


That's the look on my face right now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LMAO

Ok, here's my update.....

First ..... lawyer's office did not have papers ready today, and we're meeting next week to discuss LS vs. D .... so no real news on that front.


But that's not what you all were waiting to hear, I know. So, on to the SH appointments.

First, my appointment was right after WH's, and SH was 45 minutes late to mine. Can I tell you how nerve-wracking that all was??? As if I wasn't jumping out of my skin already ...


Anyway .... here's the recap.

SH asked me for an update first ... which I gave him. Then he asked me how I'm doing. I told him that I'm about to lose it, I can't take this much longer at all -- started crying through that part (I hate when I do that!). He got into detail asking about my AD's and exercise and sleeping, etc. He said that he'd made a much better start than he expected with WH, but that if we keep going, it's going to be a very long, and very painful process, and feel very slow to me. He compared it to getting shot with an arrow .... you can't just pull the arrow out, you have to go to the hospital, get under anesthesia, go the the operating room, they stabilize your heart, first, then they very carefully surgically remove the arrow. He said that first part is going to take a very long time for me, and he's very concerned about whether or not I'll be able to hold up through it.

I said that I would try, but that I have legal papers in the works right now and will be ready to file them the second I can't take it anymore. And I told him that I was not being nice at all in those papers -- I'm asking for everything, financially, plus parenting time, and that will enrage WH. SH actually liked that I have the papers ready (or almost ready) and available as a backup.

BUT ... he said don't serve him yet if I can hang on. And then SH started telling me about his call with WH.

First of all, I was glad that WH had called at all ... that was all I had hoped for out of all of this. Well, that and I was secretly hoping that SH would say it was ok to go ahead and file papers to try to get into a proper Plan B .... (terrible thing to have to admit).

Anyway ..... WH is ticked about the letters, and that's what he meant when he said "too much has happened". He took it very personally, like I was going after his job and was trying to get him fired. SH got him to think that through a little bit and WH actually admitted that he had backed me into a corner, and that I didn't have much of a choice. SH also got WH to admit that, while it was a pretty desperate move, and even if I HAD been trying to get WH fired ... it wasn't like I was just casually doing it for fun. That I was putting the M ahead of his career. And WH even admitted that was probably where the priorities should be. (WOW!?!?!)

SH had me fax him copies of the letters, because that's a HUGE running theme for WH. He thinks I tired to get him fired. I told SH that I knew, from talking to friends at H's work that he wouldn't get fired. And that I wouldn't have sent them if I thought he might.

The letters came up a few more times, too ... about WH taking them so personally, like I had attacked him personally .... and after hearing that enough times, I got pretty irritated and said that I understood that he'd take them personally, can he not understand me taking his AFFAIR personally? He wants to destroy our marriage and take my kids away and trash our family .... I take *THAT* personally.

SH kind of let me go with that rant a little bit, but not too far before he reigned me in and said that's the hole in WHs logic .... that SH could understand that, but that trying to explain that to WH right now would just give him something to fight against. So he said that it was understandable to feel that way, and to get it out and vent it, but not to WH because it would be counter-productive.

He said WH is in dig-in-his-heels mode. That if anyone tells him anything, he is going to fight against it. That's why WH won't move out -- no one can tell him what to do.

SH also said that WH, on his own, said that the A is wrong. So I asked SH, as black and white as WH is (and SH laughed at that point, and said something about how incredibly true that was), and he admits that this is wrong, then how in the world can he keep doing it??? SH said don't even go there. There is no good answer. He got into the addict analogy.

SH asked WH "wouldn't it be great if you could be in love with your wife...?" WH said yes, it would be, but he really did not think it was at all possible. And SH said "of course not .... " (and something about the way SH said that, my brain inserted "silly" and I imagined him reaching over and swiping WH on the knee in a very SNL-like scene that made me giggle for just a second). Anyway, SH said that of course WH would think he couldn't be in love with me again, because he'd spent so much time convincing himself that he wasn't, and was so angry about the letters that his emotions are really strong now. And the stronger the emotions, the harder it is to acknowledge that there might be anything you can do about them.

WH agreed to that, too, at least on a conceptual level.

So then SH got WH to agree to at least looking in to the possibility that that things can be saved. WH said that it woud be ideal if it could, but he didn't think it could. SH said it's like standing oon the beach in California, knowing that Hawaii is out there somewhere. Before you go there, you need to gather information ... what would it take to get there, how much would it cost, need a map and directions and etc., etc., etc. before you ever even decide whether or not you are going to go, and certainly before you pack bags or buy plane tickets or start swimming.

So, SH got WH to agree to start gathering some information. If the ideal is that you could be in love with your wife, and keep the family together, then let's at least investigate what it would take, and whether it's even possible, to do that.

And WH AGREED to that! What????

WH agreed to read HN HN, and SH also reccommended that he read the basic concepts on this website. WHAT???!!!!???? And SH told WH that that would be good information for him to have even if we decide not to try to make it. So Wh agreed to read it.

Can you say "stunned"???????


In the meantime ... here's the plan for me.

SH says a VERY GUARDED Plan A. He's really worried about me being able to keep up with this, and says the progress is going to be very slow, so I need to limit my contact with WH as much as I can so that I can limit the pain some, too.

Still try to get my mouth open and share feelings -- but that part is more for me than for him. So still say "this is hurting me" or whatever it is that I need to say, get my mouth open about my feelings.

Don't kep trying to be the "reality bringer" right now.

Instead, when I do talk to him, which shouldn't be often, go with a "respectful persuasion" mode. Concentrating on "is it worth looking in to ... ?" "let's look in to this and see if it we can benefit from any of it ...." play a supporting role in getting him to just gather the information.

No reaching out to him or trying to educate, and definitely no asking him to commit to anything .... just gathering information.

And to be very, very guarded around WH. Think of the addict analogy, don't try to reason or figure him out, try not to take things personally, try not to even know when he goes out or comes home, try to do everything I can to protect myself and my heart. He said this will be the hardest part for me, and it's going to take a while. So I need to be withdrawn and guarded. Not hostile, just very careful and deliberate.


And here's where my jaw just dropped completely off .... WH agreed to talk to SH again next week .... both of us together ......


I was NOT expecting ANY of this ..... I was just glad that WH called at all. I think my jaw is still completely unhinged at all the other stuff.

My mind is completely blown. I will be thinking and processing a lot tonight.....
(after pizza and movie night with just me and the kids ..... DS even gets to be un-grounded enough to watch movies with us .... this is our Friday night thing and I just love it and look forward to it so much all week long!).


-AmI.

PS .....

Just stopped by the house to pick up movies to return .... WH didn't even try to hide the sleeping in my bed thing today.

I think that is just very weird..... or entitlement????

Who knows. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

-AmI.

AmI,

Wow. I guess I've felt there might be a little hope, just because of how you've described your relationship in the past, all the trauma you two have been through in the last few years and the fact that it really is out of character for him to behave like this. He sounds like a man who is flailing, trying to find his way. But he seems so clueless about what to do to save himself. I guess we all feel like that when we're in terrible marital trouble, but don't know how to fix it or find our way back.

I think what Steve gave him was hope and a plan. The fact that he wants to hope is huge. And guys like your WH need action to take -- something concrete to do. There's even a plan for you to protect yourself and have an escape plan if you need one.

I hope this all works out. Impossible to know if it will, of course, but I think it will. And if it does, you're going to have a much stronger marriage in the end, I bet. Hang in there. Get ready for the long road ahead. I think you're stronger than you think and that you're going to be ok.

I am happy for you right now. I hope that your H gained something today and is not conning anyone so that he doesn't look like a bad guy. I think SH would be able to tell if he was. So, that is a good start. Do not forget to take care of yourself through all of this.
Sleep well tonight. You deserve it.

Congratulations, AmI!!

You saw truth, right before your eyes...your WH called SH...and LISTENED. You didn't take that away, mitigate or bank on it...great touch of reality, darlin'!

Now...why did you immediately go back to DJing the bed thang? LOL Let go that which you do not know and cannot know right now...you are to do what SH advised, which means in your own thoughts, be pure of intent...so your actions and words will be also.

YOU believe you can be in love with each other again...correct? A whole, intact, thriving family? Then that's your thought, your goal, your new obsession...not WH's actions right now...or his thoughts...stick to yours, 'k?

Time, focus on you and who you really are...and what you really want...will clear up a lot of pain, AmI. I can't wait for the time you will weep in gratitude and celebration...and you will.

Did you see the liberal sky this morning from where you are? Was it big enough for you to see you are under his wing, at all times? Nourish your spirituality, accept your emotions, know your beliefs and keep your thoughts on your goal...as you are in so many prayers every day, be in your own, too.

(((AMI)))

LA

AmI - That sounds great! I am so happy your WH spoke with SH and LISTENED! It sounds like you have a plan!

No advice from me as you know!! Just well wishes!

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((AmI)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I'm doing the dance of joy....Can I do it around a Mexican sobera?

I WILL cheer YOU on and on and on and on and on and on and on...Get the point?

YOU have a plan...You have the opportunity to strenghten yourself...get to your best self! Your trip should help...I know you can do it!

Should I get out "The Little Train That Could" and read it to YOU? LOL

If I have too...I WILL!

I am so thrilled for you! YOU can keep up what you said to the kids!


(((((((((OH, AmI)))))))

LA ... I didn't see the liberal sky this morning (I live clear on the other side of the state), but I have to tell you that your post about it meant more to me than you could have known .... My divorce care class is through a church, and it's pretty biblically based. It has nightly homework, and last night the homework was on Psalm 91 -- about God's protection. And it asks you to pick out what struck you the most .... the part that had struck me was verse 4, which says He will cover you with His feathers and under His wing you will find refuge .... I loved the imagery of the feathers and being tucked nice and safe under God's wing, sheilded and held close .... So that was last night, and then you wrote about the liberal sky this morning .... under His wing at all times.... wow .... did quite a number on me! I've been picturing what that sky must have looked like all day, and it's been such a comforting feeling.


GrownUp ... I'm trying to be very careful and guarded .... You're right, though .... WH definitely is flailing. He's also the type to dig in his heels and be stubborn just to do it, too. He might choose to stay flailing, just to prove that he can and that he wasn't wrong. But I do think that SH might have gotten something through to him ... a little bit .... some seeds planted. Now it's just trying to ride out that long road .....

MEDC .... you make an excelent point about WH conning. He is SOOO personable and good at talking to people that I was afraid of that, too. Especially when SH kept saying that WH agreed with what he was saying .... I was wondering if WH was just saying it to get SH off the phone. But then SH said that there was only one point where WH really didn't seem to be genuine about what he was saying and agreeing with. And it was a minor enough point that SH just said to think about it and let it go. SH said that he was surprised about how open and honest WH was with him. So I'm trying to put some faith in SH's skills (man, he had WH so pegged, it was incredible), but also remaining guarded and trying not to get my hopes up. And definitely focusing on taking care of myself and finding joy in my kids. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rin .... girl, you always make me smile. I'm so lucky to have you around!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

InADaze ... I have several of your old threads printed out and have been reading through them. Wow, they are like reading my own diary sometimes! Thank you for the links. I'll try to comment more when I've gotten through them some more.

Orchid -- thank you. Today he had to move my bible and dovorce care workbook, plus a copy of SAA and an article that I printed off from here about the affects of adultery on children in order to sleep in the bed. I guess it doesn't really bother me too horribly .... he's not doing it when I'm here .... he doesn't feel that comfortable. I just think it's kind of odd. I definitely don't feel like I've got to make life cushy for him, though!!

And I never would have thought you would drive like an old lady .... I have you pictured whizzing around all over the island in a cute, fast convertable .... perfect, flowing movie-star hair with a big tropical flower tucked perfectly behind your ear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mimi ... I'm practicing your lines .... "WE CAN DO THIS"...... "IT IS POSSIBLE"... ..others have done it... SH told WH that I was convinced there is a way to turn this around, so why doesn't WH find out if there realy is or not, and what it would take, before he decides which way he's going to go. WH agreed to that .... so I'll keep repeating .... "there IS a way .... "

My lawyer does not like the LS idea, but is willing to go that way. She admitted that shes not normally in the business of saving marriages. She's trying to find out now if LS would be sufficient to protect my relationship with the kids or if I have to go the D route. (Part of the reason paperwork is not ready to go yet).

Lost .... Thanks for dropping in! I was shocked that he even called.... but listened, that blows me away!

Had a very fun night with the kids .... they are all tucked in now and I'm going to go do homework. I have lots of it!!

-AmI.

AmI- I see that your WH is like mine...stubborn...do you remember when FWH was intentional calling OW because I was checking his cell phone records. He refused to give her up because he was intentional being rebellious!

I figured it out with the help of you all and said to him one day...Children rebel against their parents to break away from them to become independent adults...it's a process...Spouses aren't suppose to rebel against each other and the fact that you continue to call and see her even though you know it hurts me hurts me more because you are doing it on purpose.

A few weeks after that was when he made the move and called OW to request NC...remember LA saying "You get what you thirst for!" LOL She said she was being corny that day! LMAO

Oh, and I'm always happy to assist with a smile! You know for the longest time I felt like I couldn't be myself around H. I like acting silly with the kids or just coming off the wall with some crazy saying or idea.

MOF, being 4'11'', I use to have the great time with the kids. You know the toddler cars...the first ones that they leaern to ride on...where they just push themselves...

LOL..well, we had three, so I would get on one and F on the other, when L came along I would do the same thing, but we would race around the car on them. H would laugh calling me a NUT!

My dad would do crazy stuff when I was growing up...like he tighted a large trawling net in the tree so my HS, HB, and I could pretend to be trazepes artists! LMAO How cool is that!! Or the same summer, he built us a trolly from one tree to the other on some extra cable he had laying around!

Dad was/is still like a kid...oh, the last time we went visit...you know those electric humvee's at Walmart for kids that they drive. He cut the plastic frame off, and mounted it to the go cart frame we had and my boys had a blast! But of course, he had to try it out first! LMAO

I have the cutest pic of the boys in it! Oh, speaking of pics, I email faith a pic of L doing his homework to put in the MB album.

well, let me get out of here! YOU take care, H is working this weekend too, so I'll be around!