Hi Pep,
Thanks for those thoughts. I'm going to my first (here) Al-Anon meeting tonight.
I spoke to WH this afternoon after 2 days of no contact. He seemed pretty emotional.
He seemed surprised that I was 'OK'. Said 'You sound good'. He seemed to be rethinking his desire to separate.
I told him I was open to him coming home, but that we needed to see the therapist together and individually, and that I felt that he was in the same place he was right before he went to rehab last time- lost, out-of control, etc. I told him I would support him in getting treatment for his drinking, and that I would no longer be drinking. I don't want any part of it in my life. He said he needed to think about it.
He was acting as though things weren't that great at 'chez shack-up', but do I trust him?
How do I approach this one? Am I making a terrible mistake to even consider trying to do this? I feel like we've never had a chance to really see what would happen if we did get the support we need to get through this, so I'm not ready to give up without a fight. I was kidding myself about how things were before this happened, and now I'm ready to change myself. If he can't or won't change, I have to be OK with that too- he will just be doing it without me.
Neither one of us has ever been in therapy, and I really hope that he will see this as an opportunity for change, and take it.
I have talked to his parents about an intervention, which could potentially happen in 2-4 weeks.
Do I lay down conditions for his return home? I don't want him cake-eating. I know you recommended Plan B and Al-Anon, Pep. I can't plan B him if he wants to return to his own home, I can't move out, nor can he, for financial reasons.
I guess my best case scenario is that he's at a place where the prospect of losing his family, home, job might cause him to make some major changes.

He is considering coming by (maybe stay) tonight. What do I say? R talk, no R talk? Questions, no questions? Lay down the terms for coming home, or does that come later?

FIL just spoke to him and told him that I was seeing a lawyer tomorrow (couldn't see me today). He also told him no more $ from them.
I cancelled our joint account today to prevent him from draining any more $.

Gotta go pick up from school.
B3D

How is his health?

Has he had any DUIs? How many? What happened? Does he have a valid drivers license?

Does he drive after drinking? How often? With the kids?

Pep

Hi Pep,
His physical health is surprisingly good. He smokes, and is probably 20# overweight, but aside from that, OK.
He was taking anti-depressants for 'depression', prescribed by a GP, not a specialist. I know he wouldn't have told the Dr. how much he drinks, so my guess is that what he was prescribed is ineffective or dangerous.
His mental health is precarious. His personality has changed over the last few weeks as he has been drinking more frequently- he is more irritable, just numb sometimes- apathetic I guess.
No DUI's. Good enabler that I am, I have often picked him up from where he was drinking, in order to make sure that he wouldn't drive. He will get a ride home sometimes, and leave his car to pick up the next day. He will also take a cab, occasionally.
He doesn't drink and drive with the kids.
He does have a valid drivers license, but not for this state- we just haven't switched over yet.

Keep asking questions...he is coming home tonight, and he says he will stay. I need to figure out how to approach this one...

hunny

he sounds like he is in a lot of pain ... ~but~ may require MORE PAIN in order to wake up & notice his life is hanging by a thread

it's heartbreaking to watch someone you love go down .. and you are pretty much helpless ... heartbreaking ... and also makes me angry, because this is probably a good guy underneath & the deliberate waste of a good life makes me angry

but

if you go down with him, it will not stop his decline ... so don't hang on to him as he sinks... his best bet is if you keep your sanity & your health ... in case he ever returns to his right mind

so, keep you and your kids safe, and do NOT go down with the ship !!!!

just so you know... I don't think he IS a jerk, but he is acting like one

KWIM ?

Pep

I just wanted to post to let you know how things went tonight.
Not well. He came (sober), said he wasn't staying.
I asked if he wasn't staying because he couldn't drink here, and he said no, I want to be with her tonight. He's at her place, but not moving in with her, will stay in company housing. My son is heartbroken. He packed all his clothes, and left after 45 minutes. I guess his mind is made up.
Any other advice for me?
I'm seeing the lawyer tomorrow re the separation agreement. I guess we will go from there, but if the sight of his own son in the most pain I have ever seen him in isn't enough to stop him, I doubt any lawyer will.
I told him I wanted him to be happy and OK, and he says he is. What more is there to say? I am better off without him and all the pain he causes.

B3D

hmmmmmmmm

don't "green light" an affair just so he can be "happy"

happiness at the expense of a child's breaking heart is not happiness earned by good works ... that's for damn certain !

I'd say something like:

"Go if you must. It hurts (son) and me to be abandoned this way. I don't understand how this cruelty can lead to anyone's happiness. But, go if you must. I am not your warden, I am your wife."

be honest ... don't give your blessing for his happiness as he breaks your child's heart



Pep

hello?

I'm here.
Thanks for checking in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have been all over the place today- sad, happy, tired, hyper....you name it.
I saw the lawyer. We're going ahead with the separation agreement. I have a huge questionnaire to fill out, the lawyer will prepare the papers, then WH says he will sign. We don't want this to go to court, and I'm not filing for divorce. I just need to protect myself and the kids financially (seems I've done a pretty bad job in all other arenas..)
I have told him how devastated my son is, and he was visibly upset. I saw him to have him sign something for the lawyer, and he assured me, again, that it's not a long term thing. Hmmm. He also asked if I wanted to start having dinner with him and the kids on his day off. (I told him I don't want unsupervised or overnight visitation- that means me or his parents) He truly is an alien.
I think I'm going to 180 him. No cozy family dinners just yet- I want a no-contact letter first I think.
I am clearly not thinking straight, this post is all over the place, but I'd really appreciate your support and guidance...
IF, and it's BIG if, he were to want to figure this out, I would want him to live away from home- get sober, therapy and marriage counselling (MB? Not sure we can afford it by phone...) for a year. If it doesn't work out, at that point, we can split.
Ideas, feedback, kicks in the butt welcome.
Thanks for listening!

B3D

write a letter to yourself

list 10 things that begin with

"I am certain"

when I was unable to think clearly , I made lists like that

I am a visual learner & working stuff out on paper really helped me define my boundaries to myself

since your thinking is not clear ... write out your thoughts

brainstorm with yourself

about YOUR limits and your boundaries



which is what YOUR task is right now

go outline your boundaries

example:

"I am certain I will not stay in an unhealthy situation."

"I am certain I deserve the love of a faithful man"

etc...

Pep

I'll be doing that at approximately 3am tomorrow morning! I'll let you know what I come up with.
I don't know that I'm certain of *anything* right now, but I get what you want me to do...

Take care,

B3D

Pep,
Still working on those 'certainties', but I have a question.
Any ideas for someone who 'hates' AA, and won't even consider it as an option? He's been in the program 3 times, and I'm just wondering if you know of any viable alternatives?

B3D

Hi b3d,

I'm glad you are taking actions to make a better life for yourself - and in fact, to give your M and your H the best possible options to get better.

Take Pep's advice to heart.
Since she "has been there", there is no better advice to be had.

I had no option but to get out of my M because my then H wouldn't even consider any therapy for him and because of his agressive nature.
But I do remember that I was thinking of getting out of the M a few years before I actually did.
My then H was very shocked by this and really changed - for about two months.
KWIM ?
Be careful - you'll have to be strict.
It's not your H you are "fighting".
It's his addictive nature and the effect it has on you and your M and your child.

How is your support system?
Are there people you can talk to (real life, not the virtual kind <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)?

Hi Brownhair,
Thanks for checking in.
I am just flip-flopping all over the place. He's not staying with her anymore, but is talking about finding a place of his own in a few months. He mentioned to his Mom this morning that he wants to go see another Dr. about his 'depression'- she had asked about a recent prescription that he hadn't filled, and he said he didn't want to take it without talking to someone else. He is coming over to hang out with the kids on Sunday, and cut the grass.
He said yesterday he wanted to hang out with me, and that he still wants us to be friends. He also said we should start getting together fo dinner with the kids. I guess I'm hanging onto a glimmer of hope that maybe he is reconsidering and get some help, and we can work this out. I just miss him so badly, and I want everything *now*. I need to learn to be patient, I know. I understand that if this happens it needs to be because he wants it, not because I pushed.
I am planning to go to an Al-Anon meeting tonight.
I am seeing a therapist, and I have a couple of really new friends who I can talk to, his Mom came down yesterday to see me and the kids, and she saw him this morning. My family is pretty far from here, so I can only talk to them once a day.

He talked to both kids today, and they're all pretty upset, him included. My youngest misses her Daddy so much, but is to little to know what to do with it, you know? Our son has been seeing a guidance counsellor at school, which is good for him.
*newsflash*
Ugh,
I'm SO useless. He just called to talk to our son after school and I asked him about his drinking- he says he's only had a glass of wine since the weekend. I said - 'that's interesting, you can do that now, but not with me.' Sooo dumb. Why can't I keep my mouth shut?
I'm so sad. I know I only want to be with him sober, and 3 days of not drinking heavily does not equal sober, but AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH this hurts.

B3D (reading every thread on MB with 'alcoholic' in the text)

One more question.

How, if I plan B him, will he be inclined to want me back? He won't be *seeing* any changes I've made, and I won't be speaking to him, so what? He just misses me? Not likely. He is too stubborn to back down after he has said that he's done.
I guess plan B is for me? I don't know that I want my feelings for him to die. Do I let the kids talk to him on the phone? Or just see him as per the legal sep?

Sorry, lots of questions, but I'm ready to suck it up and do as I'm told. My way clearly doesn't work. Sigh.

B3D <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't care what your H does ... I'd like you to make a self-plan ... YOU are the only person who you can rely on at this time ... so fix yourself ... if your H decides to follow and become healthy/sober .... good for him ... if he does not .... YOU are still better off!

"I am certain I can be a happy emotionally healthy woman even if my H never gets sober"

quit taking his inventory ... look at yours

Pep

be sure to identify yourself as a newcomer

and ask for HELP

say "I need help"

see if you can get a few phonenumbers & ask about other meetings on other nights

Pep

for now

just Plan A yourself

meet your own needs very very well

forget about the M at the moment

put your M in God's hands

ask yourself this ... why is H not worrying about whether or not YOU want him????

think about it

Pep

HOw's this?
I am certain that I deserve to be with a faithful man
I am certain that I deserve to be with a sober man
I am certain that our children deserve a stable and happy life
I am certain that I deserve to be treated with respect
I am certain that I deserve a soft place to fall (thx Dr Phil!)
I'm certain that I do not want to feel this way ever again
I am certain that I will start taking care of myself
I am certain that I want to be able to trust the man I love
I am certain that I will be happy, health and whole on my own
I am certain that it is not my fault that he drinks
I am certain that nothing I do or say can change the will of a person who doesn't want to change

On the agenda today:
School- kids
Al-Anon central office for books
Haircut
Look for dress for wedding *his brother's- the first since we married, and he's the best man. Ouch*
Therapy
Bookstore with kids
Grocery Store
Dinner
Kids to bath, bed
Read
Sleep

Thanks so much for all your help and suggestions. I am certainly open to more, but at this time, I think *know* you're right. This time apart will be good for us. If he is ever going to be sober, he has a year to do it, and if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. I have my boundaries in place.

B3D

bump

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

today

one of my obese diabetic hypertensive patients came for a return visit

she said to me

"I finally did what you said. I quit smoking"

it's weird
I can say the same thing to the same person time & again
and then one day, in what is known as "a teachable moment" it just *clicks* for them

I did nothing different
I kept to my script as I have been trained

it was her decision to quit
she was so proud of herself
we hugged

and then she said ... "But I gained weight"

I said "Really?"

(she looked the same)

she said "I gained 0.2 pounds" ... >pause< we both started laffing hysterically <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

some days it pays to get to work

I tell you this story because ... you want to offer your beloved husband a quality life & he rejects it with both hands ... that should not stop you from holding yourself up as "The Lighthouse" ... and if YOU are going to be his lighthouse ~~~~> YOU must SHINE

so get to it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep