Good post Star. Good post.

SS

I wholeheartedly agree with you Star!!

I recommended this to Georgia earlier today and he insisted that he was not going to listen.

Then, I backed down.

Glad you stepped back up to the plate...

Georgia, there are AIRPLANES and LONG WEEKENDS and VACATION TIME...some weekends in Georgia..some weekends where she is...some weekends on ADVENTURES...

star....

thank you for much for your very well spoken post. I do take it with the spirit you are intending it, and that is out of concern for my own (and Ann's) well being. Being a CA'er (still, unfortunately), I'm not sure what to say as I unfortunately had my fingers out of my ears and eyes open when I read this.

Anything I say in my own defense you will easily be able to counter with "that's what they all say/think/feel...etc". Or...that's what my brother thought too. So...it is, I know, going to be hard for me to counter your wise words and get you to the point of relenting and say "oh, you're right, Georgia". So...I'll not try to refute what you say, likely because I do believe it is advice that I would offer as well.

However, I do indeed believe that Ann and I are, in fact, both quite mature enough, well grounded enough, disciplined enough, etc.. that we CAN go into marriage, eyes wide open, knowing full well that there is work to be done, adjustments to be made, lives to melded.

Will it be easy? Likely not. We've talked about what "routine" will settle down to look like, chores to be done, bills to be paid.

Are we infatuated at the moment? You bet. Will it last? Nope. We know that, and are quite aware.

However, (and this is my one attempt to sway you), she is the epitome of the Proverbs 31 Goddess that I can list attributes to substantiate why I love her, why I want her, and why I CHOOSE (not swoon) to make a lifelong commitment to her. She has the right "ingredients"...the pedigree if you will...that lets me know that she's not only FUN (which will wax and wane), she's got the substance that will stand the test of time through the rough parts (when it ain't FUN).

I do applaud what you are saying, and I don't disagree with one iota of your argument.

However, she and I will discuss, next week, the date we both wish to set as our wedding date.

Georgia

Okay, FGG, let's take a whack at something else, then.

How can we help you burn your CA membership card???

-ol' 2long

Am I getting close to getting kicked out of the CA club?

Not close enough, if you're so readily admitting it's a part of who/what you are.

-ol' 2long

Oh man...I actually thought I was getting there!!

Oh well...

I'm tired, see ya' later.

Georgia

Yeah, it gets late earlier where you are!

I'm going 2 stare at my eyelids in a few minutes myself.


Let me just say from my own experience that I know how hard it is 2 shed the CAer I carried for so much of my adult life, and I realize just how important a role it played in my having a "reason" for being here in the first place - that I know it's a very, very important thing 2 deal with before getting in2 another committed relationship.


for me, certainly, and probably for the rest of humanity as well.

-ol' 2long

GG is twitterpated. Doncha no??!?!?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

GG, you need that clear mind and calm heart. Lots of patience. I know you don't want a roller coaster in your home.

Btw, the perfect W ain't been made yet but I come purty close. LOL!! Just kidding. I'd be perfect if I had a maid, cook, butler, secretary, tutor, entertainment director, engineer and.... my personal shopper. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

H will just have to get another job. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Georgia:

I'm concerned. This seems like a pattern to me. Here we go again.

You say:



A cop-out? Admitting to your problem and then NOT CHOOSING to do anything about it? Are you saying that you are coming here and NOT wanting to work on your PERSONAL RECOVERY or your PERSONAL GROWTH? This makes me SAD for you.

We will be able and willing to help you with CA by continuing to engage with you about this issue.

By my own personal experience, my intimacy with my H has grown immensely by my learning how to EMBRACE CONFLICT (as recommended to me by Steve Harley) rather than to FLEE from it.



Georgia, this makes NO SENSE to me. You are contradicting yourself and you are being hypocritical. You are countering advise that YOU yourself would offer to OTHERS? So are you and Ann SPECIAL and SUPERHUMAN? As much as I like you, Georgia, I have to say that this sounds ARROGANT and, here we go, (MIMI SIGHING).... FOGGY!!! What makes you and Ann more MATURE, WELL-GROUNDED, DISCIPLINED than any other person? How can you say this about yourself when you ADMIT to being a CONFLICT AVOIDER and you continue to CA here? So will you and Ann face HEAD ON into CONFLICTS with EACH OTHER? How do you plan to successfully resolve the INEVITABLE and UNAVOIDABLE CONFLICTS that you will face?



Yes, TALKED but NOT LIVED AND EXPERIENCED these issues together. She will bring her 29 year experience with her H and you will bring your 29 year experience with your X. There will be other people present in this equation based on years and years of past experience that you can't just SIMPLY erase. Ithink you and Ann need to have ample opportunity to PRACTICE and not just to TALK about these issues. How is such TALKING any different than what is typically done in the COURTING phase?

Again I say, YOU AND ANN ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER COUPLE IN THIS PHASE OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP!

Sounds to me, I hate to say it, just like my H and the OW, when they were TALKING about their future life together....how they were going to MAGICALLY overcome all the OBSTACLES in their way.

We want your relationship with Ann to work, Georgia. That's why we are saying it's important to do the REAL WORK that is necessary with EYES, EARS AND MIND WIDE OPEN!!

This coming from a PROVERBS 31 Woman.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Orchid:

Twitterpated!

I remember that! (and I'm old). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Good Morning, Mimi...

Well...well, where to start?

First, I think you are making false assumptions and assertions to support your POV, and I'll not CA to the point to "allow" it.

First and foremost is the most unfortunate comparison of your FWH/OW to me and Ann...and the "magical" overcoming all obstacles analogy. I hope, and re-reading I don't think I did, say anything that would leave you with the impression that I expect all obstacles to "magically" be overcome by blind love! Did I say that? No, I didn't.

The words I did use was "work" and "commitment". And, I can use those words (eyes, ears, mind - wide open) because I have empirical data (not a dreamy pie in the sky "hope")that demonstrates Ann has this history, not a history of sapping off of someone else's H, or even her own H.

And...I suppose that I must (as you've forced the issue) to address my current CA status. I think if you look beyond my flippant comment, you are going to have to admit that my CA ways are getting fainter and fainter. And this IS NOT easy for me...I have consciously had to dive into a number of conflicts lately knowing full well that it was the right thing for me to do and being done out of conviction...albeit very, very uncomfortably so.

Ex.:

Ending the R with Lynn was very, very hard. She was a very nice, kind, and fun companion. It broke my heart to have to end that and hurt her...so told me that I had hurt her more than anyone in her life, and believe me, she has had a rough life. But...I knew that is what I HAD to do.

Ending the brief R with Lisa. Ditto above.

The letter to the boys. It is easier, more comfortable, to allow this "don't rock the boat....see ya' once a month" mentality to continue until I grow old and die.

Dealing with xW. She recently asked me how I'd gotten so hard to get along with. The reason...I tell her very, very directly and bluntly what I will / won't do. She doesn't like it.

And...you folks here have been the crowd telling me not to face her and tell her I'm getting married. I am quite content to do so....and boy will that be conflict!!

So, Mimi...I reject your assertion that I AM NOT working on my CA ways....as I certainly am.

AND...while I'm at it...

consider it arrogant if you wish...but I do think she and I both are, indeed, grounded in what we are doing, quite aware of the work ahead of us, and ready and willing to roll-up our sleeves to do it. And..I think we are more suited to do so than the AVERAGE couple.

Divine? No...

Willing and understanding of what commitment means? Yes.

(I pity the team joining me in a meeting in 10 minutes..I'm wired for conflict now!).

Georgia

Great work on your CA!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Ok. That's fair.



I do feel/think that the CHEMICAL PROCESS that you and Ann are experiencing now in this ROMANTIC PHASE of your relationship is definitely like what is experienced between infidels. I was SPECIFICALLY referring to the FEELINGS experienced in the EARLY PHASES of a courtship.

As I said at the end of my post, I am supportive and hopeful regarding the relationship between you and Ann and don't think that there is anything IMMORAL or WRONG about your relationship as is true with AFFAIRS. It only in reference to the ROMANTIC/ INFATUATION/CHEMICAL PROCESS in the early phases of a courtship that I am making analogous to an affair.



Georgia, 3 different relationships within this short period of time after 29 years in one relationship?

We're just saying TAKE YOUR TIME.....



Sorry. I was basing this on what you refer to as your "flippant" comment.



But you yourself said that you would offer different advice to another couple. So how did you and Ann develop these ABOVE AVERAGE RELATIONSHIP SKILLS? From your experiences in your PREVIOUS MARRIAGES? From READING? From MATURITY? I'm open to you trying to help me understand YOUR POINT OF VIEW. You see I'm biased. My H and I had all of those factors that you described. I don't feel that my H or many WSes here had any particular PERSONALITY FLAWS. We spent years of WORKING on our marriage. I still don't see why you and Ann should be considered as being so SPECIAL.

As I'm about to enter another meeting (I'll be back), please give me a yes or no answer to this one very simple question:

Do you, from your knowledge of me and what I've TOLD you about Ann, think that I / WE possess:

"ABOVE AVERAGE RELATIONSHIP SKILLS"?

Pep sez:

do some pre-marriage couples classes ... some churches offer this

or

call Harleys and request a few pre-marriage-assessment sessions

if you decide to marry in the next six months
get a pre-nup with clear financial boundaries

other than that

I say

go fo it !

Sorry. Can't give a YES or NO answer.

This is my own perspective and opinion.

I'm having problems with us using the Average/Above Average rating system. I'm not sure how that got started. It's too judgmental for me.

I can't speak about Ann.

However, I will say that I have CONCERNS about what's going on with YOU. I would think that you would, too. That's what's most important. Again I say, you've had 4 RELATIONSHIPS, I think (including your X) over the short period of time that you've been here. What does that tell YOU about your Relationship Skills? You spoke about Lynn's feelings...

I'll speak for myself. I am DAILY trying to grow and to further develop my RELATIONSHIP SKILLS. No one is perfect. I continue to be a WORK IN PROGRESS....THANK GOD..makes life interesting...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ouch...Mimi...that really hurt!

Okay, you've made your point. Instead of continuing this debate, I will thank you for your input (one step shy of the fingers in the ears thing).

I am going to FORCIBLY change the subject.

I am going to xW's after work (shortly) and take her the few items remaining that I still have been unable to get to her that she wants (and I promised to return long ago).

I have completed some other paperwork to transfer ownership of a life insurance policy. I will take it and hand it to her.

Tomorrow, I will send you an e-mail stating the bare facts and then sit on my deck and watch for the mushroom cloud just NW of my house.

I do sincerely thank you Star, Pep, Mimi...for your spirited offerings. As usual, a seed of thought is there that I will consider with some degree of diligence and reflection over time.

Georgia

I want to make this PERFECTLY CLEAR because I don't know what this means.

I HAVE NOT GIVEN GEORGIA AN E-MAIL ADDRESS for him to send ME anything.

I guess he is making reference here to his X....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Oh...I am so sorry. I don't know why I said "you", I meant "her". Man..you're a little sensitive on that one, Mimi...I'm feeling guilty and I didn't do anything!

Anyway...phase I is done.

Stuff dropped at her house AND SHE WASN'T HOME!!!! (Whew...see...I didn't have to face any conflict!).

And....now that I've had time to shower and change (went by the Y on the way back from xW's house) and think about this...

let me add...

While I have my CA'er pinned to the ground with a stake through his heart, the "implied" quick defense, coupled with the "okay, no thanks"...of 2 days ago (which was just fine, no problem!) really is quite humiliating and embarrassing to me.

Are you the same lady who, the last time you posted to me about 4-6 weeks ago...said something to the effect that you had learned not to let what other people thought bother you????

I am sorry that I've placed you in such a precarious position.

So...for the record...No, Mimi has sent me NO e-mail addresses and I've NOT e-mailed her.