Thank you Tru. I have been wondering if you were ok (I had read your old threads.)

Brownhair: I chose Saturn rising because I'm a scientist and thought a little astology rounds me out nicely <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Also, my husband and I are both Capricorn and it seemed appropriate:

Saturn:
This planet is synonymous with hard lessons, effort and responsibility. Wherever Saturn is placed in a birth chart reveals where we have the most to learn and where we will suffer our greatest frustration and heartache. There is a point to Saturn, of course, just as there is a point to difficult experiences - we become better people for them; we grow.

Thanks for the kind words and advice everyone.

Hi SaturnRising,

a Capricorn (who also had moon in Capricorn, and Capricorn rising) once asked me (because he knew I did massages):
"Oh, so if you would give me a massage, what would you massage?"
I looked at him and said: "Your head."
He was surprised, then said: "Geez, you have me all figured out."

Is that something you can relate to in your M?
A lot going on mentally with both of you?

I don't believe much in astrology but it is really weird that you say that about Saturn because I had my chart done in 1999 when all this tragedy happened. This really wacked out, sweet hippie guy used to come to our business and he offered to do my chart. For kicks and grins I agreed.

He told me something about Saturn being in the house of death and something concerning children and a Finger of "Yod" being on me. [my son died] He said big changes had taken place that could not be reversed. [my H of 20 yrs left for the OW] I know I have this all jumbled up because I understand none of it, but when I get home I will look at the notes and the chart he did for me and post it. It sort of shocked me.

Dear Mel,

I didn't know you also lost a son.
Mine was a baby of six weeks (meningitis, 16 years ago).
((((Mel))))

I don't "believe" in astrology either but I studied it for a few years and found the results I got astounding.

A yod is something that you try to make work out while you really shouldn't.. and that is the lesson.
To let go of that aspect at some point in your life.
I'd be happy to take a look at your data if you'd like.

Sorry about your boy, brownhair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Mine was 18 when he was killed. I will post the stuff from that chart when I get home to see what you think. It was a real eye opener!

Thanks Mel.

If you don't want to post it here you can e-mail me at britfrombelgium@hotmail.com

You've got mail!

No, I’m not saying this. Of course it’s still fornication if there are children involved... What’s your point?

Anyway, the children from such a relationship is totally innocent and just as precious as any other children in spite of the fact that they are a product of fornication...and in spite of the fact that the parents still "live in sin" and practise fornication. Therefore, if infidelity occurs in such a relationship...things WILL be more complicated than a situation where there are no children... Then both parents still have a responsibility towards those innocent & precioius children... Then the solution is NOT as clear cut as you’ve tried to suggest with your previous post... Then it will be more difficult for the betraying partner to break up with the person who has cheated.

SIGH… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> The safety of my job has absolutely NOTHING to do with this Pep...ZERO. You are totally of the mark here and it frustrates me since it’s clear from your words above that you have not read the post I’ve send to you previously on the other thread, so HERE (post # 090554 on this thread) you can read that post again so that you can have the FACTS and the REAL issues on why the A was not exposed to OMW.

Hmmm…I only agree it’s not a serious offense in a dating relationship IF the partners mutually agree to have an “open relationship” (dating others too) and being honest with each other about it. However, if dishonesty & secrecy is part of this, in other words, if one or both of the partners in the relationship which are suppose/previously agreed to be exclusive, sneak secretly behind each others backs to date others, it’s indeed a serious offense IMO and shows lack of honesty, integrity, respect, faithfulness etc. etc. (as I’ve pointed out in other posts).

My point is, if a person in an exclusive relationship meet someone he/she is interested in and would like to date and know better, then that person must at least be honest with the partner about it before he/she starts to date the person... This will also give the committed partner a chance to make an informed decision and decide if he/she wants to stay in a relationship which will not be exclusive anymore. IMO this is basic decent & respectful human behavior…which is supposed to be applied in ALL areas in life.

Therefore I think if “a change of mind in a dating situation” is communicated with the partner before going out on other dates, it is not dishonest, disrespectful etc. as long as the partners are indeed honest with each other and not secretively sneaking behind each others back with other dates while suppose to be in a exclusive committed relationship with each other. Then rather be honest about it; end such an exclusive relationship and turn it to a "casual" relationship in stead which will give both people a fair & equal chance to get to know and date other people without being secretive and dishonest about it...

Firstly, I never lectured you on compassion Pep... I just stated a general opinion on a tendency I’ve witnessed on these boards lately (towards people who are betrayed outside marriage)...and then you have decided to take that comment personal and attacked me about it...

Secondly, your judgment/assumption/accusation about me is totally false… I do have compassion for OMW. The fact that I can’t show compassion to her (exposing and apologize to her) at this stage due to personal circumstances & concerns of my H, doesn’t mean that I don’t have compassion for her and are remorseful about what I have done… But you don’t have to believe me…and that’s fine.

Then count your blessings Pep and be very thankful you’ve discovered this website and had the chance to became aware of your vulnerabilities and the importance of keeping healthy boundaries/getting your guard up in a opposite sex friendship before you could have found yourself in a similar situation than me... Unfortunately I was not so lucky than you in this regard... I only learned about EA’s and what it is after I’ve discovered this website… Before I discovered this website, I never realized I had an A with OM…especially since I’ve backed off from OM instinctively and by will after I’ve become aware of the inappropriate feelings I’ve develop towards him... I wish I had discovered this website much earlier...it would have saved me (and my H) a lot of pain... But on the other side, I've gained much wisdom from this whole experience..something which would have not been the case otherwise... To me, how we learn and grow from mistakes and wrong choices are much more important than the wrong choices and mistakes itself.

Suzet, I know that you have planned to write to Dr. Harley about the exposure question in your case. I was wondering if he responded to you?

Obviously this is a hot-button topic for lots of people on this board. I have tried to read all of Dr. Harley's statements, to understand how he feels about it.

From my reading, it seems like he is not black-and white on exposure, especially if no contact has long been established and no sex has taken place (like in an EA). Also, I think he suggests that exposure should be a POJA agreement with the betrayed spouse. It seems like Dr. Harley strongly recommends exposure in the case of a physical affair so that the other person's betrayed spouse can be tested for STDs, and also if the affair or contact is ongoing.

I was wondering if he wrote back to you? I hope so- that way this issue will be put to rest in your situation.

SaturnRising, no, I have not received any response from Dr Harley as off yet. I’ve send the e-mail on 31 August and then a follow up e-mail last week Wednesday. Still no response. Underneath is the follow up e-mail I’ve sent last week (I’ve sent it to both Dr Harley and Jennifer’s e-mail addresses):

[color:"blue"]Dear Jennifer, is there any way Dr Harley will be able to make an exception and respond to me electronically on the underneath e-mails I’ve send a while ago (I’ve combined the two e-mails in one)? Unfortunately I live in a country (South-Africa) where I will not be able at all to listen and/or call in on the radio show. I know Dr Harley usually don’t’ respond on individual e-mails, but since the underneath topic is a topic of general concern on the MB General Questions II lately…and since I also have an individual concern regarding the issue, I will highly appreciate if Dr Harley can make an exception and respond to me on e-mail if possible. However, if he will not be able to do it, please let me know when and what time the e-mail will be read on the weekly radio program so that I can ask some members on the board to listen in on the program on behalf of me and take some notes.

Regards,
“Suzet”

From:
Sent: 31 August 2006 11:35 AM
To: 'bharley@marriagebuilders.com'; 'jharley@marriagebuilders.com'
Subject: Need input on MB issue

Dr. Harley, approximately one month ago (on 11 August ’06), a BS on MB’ers sends you the following e-mail:

“Dr. Harley,
Thank you for a wonderful site.
There have been many discussions of late pertaining to exposure and POJA.
I have a concern that I would like to hear your opinion on. You have advocated that a BS is to be told of an A in all cases. Yet, there is a thought on the board that this should be a POJA issue between the FWS and the BS. I feel that there is a moral obligation for the FWS to make sure the affair partners spouse is aware of the A. I feel that even absent "enthusiastic agreement" from the BS that this serves two purposes: protecting your own marriage and making amends to a person that has been wronged (by both WS). I feel that the "Golden Rule" should apply here and that the OBS should be made aware of the A.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this. I would have liked to have called this question into your show but am unable to do so.
Thank you again for the valuable service you offer.
Regards,
Robert (mkeverydaycnt)”

The above poster also sends a copy of his post on the GQII board but said he has not received any response from you as off yet. I’m also very interested in your response on his post and have therefore decided to re-send the above post on his behalf in case the 1st post didn’t reach you or get lost. There are other members on MB’ers who are also interested in your response since this is a topic of debate on the GQII board for a while now.

Also, I’m a FWW who was involved in an online EA a few years ago. The EA was never exposed to OM’s W. Recently the EA was resumed for a period of one day (massive e-mail exchanges) before I confessed to my H and send a 3rd NC letter to OM. I still work at the same company than OM due to personal circumstances and accidentally see him or bump in him now and then.

I value your opinion and would like to have an answer from you regarding POJA and exposure in a situation where the BS doesn’t approve and agree on exposure to the OPS at this stage due to personal circumstances, reasons, fears and concerns.

Since exposure to both BS’s and POJA in an M and to get the BS’s “enthusiastic agreement” are both important - what about a situation where the BS doesn’t agree and approve on exposure to the OPS in a situation (like mine) where the A has ended, but where the FWS still risks contact from the OP and therefore stays vulnerable for a resumption of the A?

Must the FWS honors and submits to the BS and not expose without the BS “enthusiastic agreement” or must the FWS do the morally right thing and expose and make amends to the OPS anyway (by using "Radical Honesty" with the BS) without the BS’s agreement and approval? Especially after a recent betrayal by the FWS where contact was broken (by the OP’s instigation) and a resumption of the A occurred?

Since I’m also unable to call in or listen to your radio show (I’m living in South-Africa) I will highly appreciate if you can respond to my e-mail address.

Thanks for your time and valuable service. I will appreciate your time and opinion on this very much.

Regards,
“Suzet”[/color]

I will wait a while and then send a follow-up e-mail again if I don’t receive any response. I will post the response here as soon as I receive one.

Suzet... not to beat a dead horse here... but no one on this site or any where else should need someone else to tell them to do the "morally right thing." That is the point that people get hung up on your actions. You can actually say it is the right thing to do morally...yet you get upset when people say that your actions are immoral.

I guess I am confused by your logic at times concerning this topic. Either you think it is the moral thing to do (and thereby not doing it would be immoral) or you don't.

I have not followed up with Dr. H after receiving no reply since I decided that it really doesn't matter what he said about the subject...there is only one right answer here... and that is to be moral.

I agree 100%. Cheaters cheat... exclusive dating or marriage... the severity of the offense is different...but the lack of morals is the same.

Suzet*

thanks for taking the time to respond

Pep

MEDC, you know my situation is more complex than this... I have my H’s valid feelings, concerns, fears and circumstances to keep in mind as well (I’ve posted to you about it before) and to ignore those issues (especially my H’s feelings, fears and concerns regarding this) is a moral issue for me too. Therefore this is NOT a black-and-white issue for me considering the circumstances we are in... So actually, I feel I’m torn between TWO moral issues here...and that’s why I’m seeking Dr Harley’s input as well...because there is not yet a clear cut answer for me regarding this.

You're welcome Pep.

Suzet I don't want to flog a dead horse here either but Squid BEGGED and threatened me not to expose to OM GF. She was very hurt and ashamed by my decision to expoe her. She still resents it a little even now.

Was I wrong to do the right thing ?

No, Suzet, I don't know that... you say that it is more complex than that... I just disagree. I do see the matter as black & white... and that is where we disagree. I do not see your willingness to keep this information from the OMW as the moral choice. I also do not agree that it is a decision involving two "moral" choices. I do not feel that your H's concerns and feelings about this have anything to do with morality. They need to be taken into account in the manner in which you expose... but do not abslove you of the responsibilty to expose.
You seem to constantly imply that your reasons for not exposing are being ignored. You have also constantly implied that if people would just read and therefore know your reasons that they would be more acceptable. I have read the posts, I know your reasons.... everyone else that has disagreed with you knows the reasons too... they just do not make your actions okay.
It's funny when I read your posts Suzet... we agree on about 99% of the other stuff that comes up on this board. I think you would do well to step back and view this situation from a different perspective.

Bob,

No, you were NOT wrong for doing the right thing. If you did not do it you and your W would probably not be married today. And, as the BETRAYED spouse you had all the reasons in the world to expose to OM GF whether your W agreed with it or not and whether she still resents you about it or not. The same doesn't apply to me because I'm not the betrayed spouse.