More thoughts on your post LA,


Letting go of what's not mine and taking ownership of what is mine is hard to fully comprehend sometimes or at least to practice.

I mean, at what point are my actions/words responsible for others' reaction/feelings? Obviously I cannot go around not being myself, or not speaking my thoughts simply because it may "offend" somebody for fear of forsaking my own being. At what point do I or will I betray myself by NOT honestly portraying my beliefs?

And if I'm not responsible for how others feel, then I should be able to do or say whatever I want, right? But I shouldn't... because there must be a level of respect. Lack of respect will cause pain. So it's about respect, really... as I'm typing this out I'm coming to some conclusions.

Other thing is, if I can only influence, not control, does that mean I cannot insist on what I know to be the best path, idea, way? I realize this has sort of an inverse affect, meaning if I give up control and walk softly, I can gain respect and therefore "command" loyalty, which is better than control because it values both love and respect.

Control only guarantees rigidity and a clockwork approach to things which in the past has made me anxious. The more I tried to control the less control I had and the more miserable I was.

And I was miserable, believe me, while my wife became more and more distant and uncaring about me. Problem was, I didn't even realize I was doing it, in my mind I was trying to be strong, an asset to the marriage, a leader... it didn't work.

So, I guess, it's not that we must give up wise choices and how to instill them in the family, but rather in the way it is delivered. Through patience, example, love.

My WW's decision not to work past the hurt baffles me. As if carrying around the hurt were better than working through it with me, it's not, but she cannot see that through her eyes. She only feels pleasure, avoids pain, for now... this is so she can pretend the pain is not there.

This unfortunately will make her less feeling, less emotional, more hardened, this I've sensed about her already in our marriage. Not available, distant, not emotional. I bawled my head off in MC five months ago, I let it all out, left my pride on the floor... she showed nothing.

Now all of the conflict of our marriage and subsequent divorce will go unresolved... at least between us. My only recourse is to forgive her, and myself. You're right, I shouldn't take her unwillingness to pursue healing as my problem when I am for the healing.


These questions rattle around in my head: will my wife's boyfriend make her happier? Does she still embrace her affair even now? Why did she leave me for this guy if he's not better than me?

So then I'm measuring myself again, against a person who would have sex with a married woman? That is terribly unfair to myself. This is an area where I need to be vigilant, day-in-and-day-out. It is a battle of self-image, I suppose. How will I know when it's won though? Why does it seem everyone else has it all together except me? Especially when my own wife takes liberty while in a marriage to me?

Thanks for your words LA, they challenge and push and help.

Cor,

"Letting go of what's not mine and taking ownership of what is mine is hard to fully comprehend sometimes or at least to practice."

Oh, did I forget to mention this is really difficult? A HUGE challenge? Simple but not close to easy? Gee, must have slipped my mind.

Changing everything you've believed is really hard...if you believed you made others feel, think and believe...and they made you...and you believed that since you were a kid, then it would stand to reason replacing that belief with your adult experienced belief would take time, awareness and pure intent, wouldn't it? Not mocking...this is me attempting to be supportive. And you're not alone...look at all who have believed this...especially within their marriages...and what they experienced.

"I mean, at what point are my actions/words responsible for others' reaction/feelings? Obviously I cannot go around not being myself, or not speaking my thoughts simply because it may "offend" somebody for fear of forsaking my own being. At what point do I or will I betray myself by NOT honestly portraying my beliefs?"

So you can only be yourself, share your stuff, when it doesn't offend?

That would be limiting, wouldn't it? Did I understand your statement correctly? Because humans are designed to take offense and blame...they can't give it. I mean, they can't make blame or offense go into others...you can be offensive, on purpose or accident...has to be taken to hurt, doesn't it? Think about it...when you solidly know someone is abusing you, you remove yourself...it's about them, not you earning it...earning punishmet or love...it's about them, their fear and permissions...so we remove ourselves from verbal, physical, spiritual and emotional abuse...not about us. Not us earning, unless we believe we do.

And being who you really are cannot earn abuse, can it? Using "I" statments, owning our own stuff and choosing to share it...cannot be abusive...unless our intent is to make someone else feel, think or believe what is alone ours?

"And if I'm not responsible for how others feel, then I should be able to do or say whatever I want, right?"

I believe we only do what we want...our inherent choices does not choose to do anything without believing there is a payoff for us...whether that payoff is authentic or false aside.

"But I shouldn't... because there must be a level of respect."

Respect is acknowleding the truth of being human...we are all separate and equal. We can only control our own stuff...not be the cause, control or cure of others...believing we CAN be is DISRESPECTFUL. Doesn't respect the truth of being human.

"Lack of respect will cause pain."

Lack of admiration? Could it be our definition of respect here? Acceptance? Appreciation? Lack of all those can be felt as pain...if you reject someone "I reject who you really are" then their selves may or may not experience pain...depending on if they choose to believe you or just know that's your choice, your opinion...and choose NOT to believe you.

"So it's about respect, really... as I'm typing this out I'm coming to some conclusions."

Cool! Like what?

"Other thing is, if I can only influence, not control, does that mean I cannot insist on what I know to be the best path, idea, way?"

Insist someone else has to believe, feel and think as you do? No, that's abusive. You cannot determine what is best for someone else...that's their domain. Now, in a partnership, like a marriage, you cannot do that either...however, you can share what you believe, feel and think about the marriage, like a separate person...and honor it, even when you don't feel like honoring your partner.

If you own a company, you control a company's best path, idea or way. We don't own people. And insisting you know is really telling self that unless someone agrees with your opinion, it isn't valid. Knowing and sharing what you believe is valid and necessary for connection. Insisting you believe it invalidates it, IMO.

"I realize this has sort of an inverse affect, meaning if I give up control and walk softly, I can gain respect and therefore "command" loyalty, which is better than control because it values both love and respect."

Cor...there is no control to give up...do you mean give up your perception that you control what you inherently do not? Then yes, you will live respectfully. Won't guarantee others will do the same. You'll know it and that will be enough. You'll have true self-loyalty and love, and build your own self-respect with every word, action and thought if your goal is to live respectfully.

Self thrives on truth and reality. Believing you control what you cannot is like holding yourself responsible for what you cannot control...crazymaking...fantasy and a very painful (which is real) experience.

Hence the adage; Pain is necessary. Suffering is optional.

"Control only guarantees rigidity and a clockwork approach to things which in the past has made me anxious. The more I tried to control the less control I had and the more miserable I was."

Controlling yourself, the way you perceive that, is twisted from beliving you earn love, inside and out, based on your actions and words...when reality is, you're loved, lovable, whole and complete without a word spoken or an action taken. No rigidity there. Total acceptance, understanding ad acknowledgement. Even your feelings are under your control...not by force, but by belief. Information is impervious to force...can't really push them down...the information is delivered inside you no matter what.

Would you consider the more you tried to control, the more you were perpetuating a fantasy, and it was this conflict with reality which was so painful, caused great anxiety (information to alert you there is internal conflict) and you would experience life as miserable, trying to control the wind, stop the earth or pull down the sun?

"And I was miserable, believe me, while my wife became more and more distant and uncaring about me. Problem was, I didn't even realize I was doing it, in my mind I was trying to be strong, an asset to the marriage, a leader... it didn't work."

This has great self-forgiveness in it. You realize your actions did not come from maniacal thirst for power...as we've seen it depicted (I don't believe there is such people personally) when it came from old beliefs and fears! Terrific! Seriously...lots of people struggle a long time bashing themselves for not knowing then what they know now...and it doesn't sound to me like you are. Very loving and forgiving...and based in reality.

"So, I guess, it's not that we must give up wise choices and how to instill them in the family, but rather in the way it is delivered."

Wow...as long as you believing you instill them in your family instead of example them through leadership, you're gonna experience intense pain...from frustration (unreasonable expectations), anger (perceiving they are crossing your boundaries by not conforming) and fear (of making an unwise choice and them blaming you).

"Through patience, example, love." How patient are you with yourself? How loving are you towards yourself? How authentic do you believe you are? Embracing and knowing who you really are is what life is about, to me...takes years and years to know, learn and grow...and teaching this to your children, that you respect and value who they really are, that they cannot earn your love or respect...that you choose to live from it, and love them, anyway...which embraces your deepest truth...because that's what God did when he created us, and sent his son...we didn't earn love...and he made redemption a simple ownership choice, to amend by acknowledging, committing and forgiving...that's how we love our children respectfully.

They are separate, whole, marvelously made human beings, equal to you...no kidding...though they don't know it yet...accepting of your influence into their minds and hearts without question...which is how you got a lot of false beliefs stored inside you, as a child, because you didn't KNOW you could choose.

Yet God said, "Here is your inherent choice" and he emphasized it again, through Jesus...he must be chosen for salvation...he has no power to make you choose...nor does anyone else.

Through the teen-age years, I believe our parental influence is SEVERELY limited...to teach us that our children allowed us to parent...and then changed their mind. LOL. Nothing to do with love...everything to do with finding out who they really are...and beginning their journey back to authentic self, when they may have forged a false-self to earn love from you better, get their ENs met and feel safe.

You know what? I believe the second commandment is about this most of all...do not worship any gods before him...even your own self-image. Not self...but the self-image we've been constructing from an early age...to earn love...takes a lot of effort, focus, time and concentration...which takes away from our intimacy with God...it's the false god he means...nothing else consumes us as much...money is part of the self-image, so are material things, sex, food, other distractions when they are extreme...and get in between us and him.

All serve self-image or are about fleeing what we perceive as ourselves...

"My WW's decision not to work past the hurt baffles me. As if carrying around the hurt were better than working through it with me, it's not, but she cannot see that through her eyes. She only feels pleasure, avoids pain, for now... this is so she can pretend the pain is not there."

We can be baffled, not understand and choose NOT to believe it's because of us. It's about them. Respectful. Do you carry around a lot of hurt inside? Don't know all of it, where it came from, why it stayed or where it's coming from now? I guarantee you, it's from the inside of you...find those beliefs generating that information. And she CAN, she has the capability to see her life, her stuff...and she is choosing not to see what you see, know what you know...maybe because when you insist on what you know, she hears you telling her she's wrong, defective, stupid and bad. Stop insisting and begin respecting her stuff...which includes you NOT thinking about her stuff.

HUGE DJs in that last paragraph...where's your payoff, can you find it?

"This unfortunately will make her less feeling, less emotional, more hardened, this I've sensed about her already in our marriage. Not available, distant, not emotional. I bawled my head off in MC five months ago, I let it all out, left my pride on the floor... she showed nothing."

DJs...sharp stabbing DJs you are creating within yourself, hurting yourself. Please stop. She didn't react as you would have liked...that doesn't justify all your DJs. And you don't KNOW what she thought, felt, believed or perceived, did you? Did you know her truth then, her own?

Why would you choose to believe you left your pride on the floor instead of realizing you were radically honest, emotionally honest and mentally honest, nothing withheld from fear...my belief is that day, you could be proud of all of your self, actions, words and being. Maybe, for the very first time.

"Now all of the conflict of our marriage and subsequent divorce will go unresolved..."

Ohmygosh...do you like playing God? Being omniscient? Cor...please...do not go where you do not have domain...not over the past or the future...it isn't here yet. God designed it so...we only have right now...one moment at a time...for truth, reality and to experience. Why stab yourself again by choosing to believe and emotionally experience WHAT YOU CANNOT KNOW?

You are MAKING certain of losing your marriage, half of it through your own hand, if you sentence yourself to this perspective because you will ACT and SPEAK from it. Because you are emotionally living it. Please, Cor, don't choose this.

"at least between us. My only recourse is to forgive her, and myself. You're right, I shouldn't take her unwillingness to pursue healing as my problem when I am for the healing."

We heal ourselves, through God, I believe. We cannot heal someone else...we can share all that we are, and that is healing...doesn't mean we're healing others. Their beliefs and perceptions heal themselves.

You are in a BS fog, Cor...and it's toxic. You allow yourself to stab with thoughts (like about BF), dwell in her stuff...which is only hers alone...and where your focus is, there is your treasure...so that means you're telling self it's worthless, not worth a thought, self-care, respect or love. OUCH!!!

Stay in your own stuff, Cor. Please. Add to self-image being a god you worship ahead of God...your WW...because you are choosing to obsesses on what you cannot control.

Yes, measuring as comparison, is judgment, forbidden by Jesus in the bible. Judge the sins, not the sinner. Find out your payoff in comparison, judging, resenting, stabbing yourself and crushing self through negligence, 'k?

I bet you'll find a lot of false payoffs. I want you to experience real ones...like that day in counseling when you were radically honest with MC, her and YOURSELF.

Your choices to do this...where you focus...is why you perceive everyone else as having it all together except you...another lie you practice with a payoff.

Hope you can see my love in my words, not as attacks. I'm reacting to me, the old me, thinking, believing, obsessing, smashing, crushing and neglecting self...worshipping my DH and self-image...I remember. I thank God for getting me here, through messages, from people...and I'm passing it on.

LA

Thank you LA for this post.


This is liberating. I'm beginning to understand the truth in this, for the first time. I wanted to cure something in my WW for a long time and it was a monumental waste of energy for her and myself. I'm beginning to understand that people will for the most part always be exactly what they are when you met them.


This has stuck in my head and I think about it often. It reminds me of the first line of a book that did very well in sales lately called "The 40 days of Purpose." I don't agree wholly with everything in this book, but the first line is: "It's not about you," and it's a great reminder of the most important clue about living... that pride and envy are so completely destructive, to put them at the top of our lives leads us into disillusionment. This is my take, but the idea is to let go of trying so hard to please, and centrally locate, ourselves.


I am certain our marriage is finished. I have tried to keep it together but my WW it seems is a serial relationship disaster. I should've never married her. Her propensity is toward her career and damn everything else if it gets in the way of that. I refused to play second string, made many, many mistakes along the way, then felt alienated and rejected, and misunderstood her total lack of response, so she left, had a sexual affair and proclaimed her freedom as in "I'm doing what's best for me!" quote/unquote.

If this was a marriage than I'm not sure what marriage means anymore. It's not a drink menu, like will she have the apple martini or the lemon drop. It's a choice to love, to love spiritually, emotionally, physically, mentally -- a binding choice, a choice engaging in the potentially greatest endeavor men and women can physically engage in on this side of heaven, in my opinion.

It is a relationship invented by God, for his glory and our joy and it is being mocked.

So then what does the legal aspect have to do with anything anymore? It doesn't stop people from getting a divorce, there is practically no shame in divorcing someone you've been ****** married to for thirty years let alone three!!


I see how this is true but when you (meaning me) walk into marriage counseling with your "wife" and she's wearing ****** sunglasses on her head like this is a weekend barbeque, but instead your marriage is on the line and as you start spilling your guts on the floor, weeping, a man weeping openly, and she rolls her eyes as you describe your deepest pain, I don't see much hope for that person in the near future. Instead I see pain, darkness, and a ruined life for that person down the road. That person has no soul in my opinion. That cannot be a DJ, it is an observation about how heartless someone can become in this world. She went to counseling KNOWING she was having an intimate sexual relationship with a man who was not her husband and she embraced that fact!!

Sorry, this has turned into a rant, but it feels good to bash every once and a while as talking nice and pretty all the time just doesn't seem to work.

I'll get back to more constructive speak later...

Thank you for posting, Cor...

"I am certain our marriage is finished. I have tried to keep it together but my WW it seems is a serial relationship disaster. I should've never married her. Her propensity is toward her career and damn everything else if it gets in the way of that. I refused to play second string, made many, many mistakes along the way, then felt alienated and rejected, and misunderstood her total lack of response, so she left, had a sexual affair and proclaimed her freedom as in "I'm doing what's best for me!" quote/unquote.

If this was a marriage than I'm not sure what marriage means anymore. It's not a drink menu, like will she have the apple martini or the lemon drop. It's a choice to love, to love spiritually, emotionally, physically, mentally -- a binding choice, a choice engaging in the potentially greatest endeavor men and women can physically engage in on this side of heaven, in my opinion."

I hear you...and I am living proof that your belief, your expectation of what marriage is...is limited. I was a serial cheater...I was an emotional wrecking ball...an abusive person without boundaries. I am that no longer. I love from choice now...striving to connect spiritually, emotionally, physically and mentally with my DH every day...and also believe this is what life is in totality...I couldn't have gotten here from there, gone from doing what I did to knowing I will not choose that for my marriage, my partner or my life ever again without having gone through what you're experiencing right now...it took what it took.

That's why her stuff is solely about her...her affairs are not about you...no rejection of you, except as a mirror you weren't meant to be. It was your choice to mirror and that's what I want you to take away from your marriage...the knowledge of your part, why you chose this woman to vow your life to...so you will live life in full conscious choice, respect, full out love and honor yourself, God's creation, to the depth of your soul.

If it is about her being broken, you won't get there. Human marriages, the place of the deepest intimacy you describe, is where we struggle to get to the ideal...not a guarantee from the first "I do" but "I intend" and then living from that...all the way through...to get where both partners live from their beliefs, their choice to love, even when they don't feel it.

Life changing stuff...full of sorrow, severe pain and joy...all the emotions, the signals...and changing what we believe, how to accept the person and not the actions...reworks everything within us.

Not mocked, IMO. My infidelities were about me, living a reflected life, not my own...which made an intimate and solid relationship with God impossible...he wouldn't reflect me, would he? Every verse in the bible I took to be about me and got confused, convoluted information...and Jesus saying two commandments...love God with every molecule...and others and yourself...was beyond what I could do...because I couldn't love his creation like that...me.

Until we get there, we can't really get anywhere else we desire to be...

Can you trust there is shame, guilt, sorrow, anxiety, resentment, anger...in divorce? As well as pain? If you choose to believe it is like kleenex for people, then you will continue to experience excruciating pain from your own judgment...honoring marriage means knowing for real what you don't know...and judging through statistics without a pain index is like that...choosing the worse belief and suffering from it...

I know a lot of humans are here, trying to save their marriage, understand marriage and relationships. I know many out there do not understand what a vow is...as I didn't. They had no examples, or terrible ones...these are adults with divorce in their families, their histories...what may seem mockery or abomination is standard, passed down...and reflects what they feel inside...torn apart.

I choose to not know what others think of their marriage...only tell them of my own journey, what I've come to believe...because judging unknown others is a backhanded way of comparing myself, giving me false comfort when I thirst for what is real and what is not.

I see your judgment...of your WW...like walking into MC with sunglasses on her head...as distractions from truth...Your WW WALKED INTO MC...her own choice, her own accord. She went. Many do not. At all.

Why is it so important that you NOT acknowledge the truth..she was there, she was present and she heard. She knows your pain. She did not act from it. You don't know why. What you do know is if you only believe you're heard, validated if the other person ACTS as you want them to (stop hurting you) or not. Is this your truth? You aren't heard unless they resolve your issue? Is this like a flip over...you only hear others' stuff if you resolve their issues?

Would you consider that sharing is not acting from what is shared...it is made known...and intimacy is knowing and being known...not controlling, causing or curing another person?

Why do you judge so much, Cor? Where's your payoff in sentencing her, weighing her to an ounce of herself...and saying she's not worth...what? Hoping for? Praying for? Accepting her as she is, separate from what she did or does? That any day she could change...see in herself, like a cataclysm all that is her real power...how much destruction and damage she caused to others and most of all, to herself...and change? How does it benefit you to choose to believe she has no soul? To choose not to believe she is as whole, complete, marvelously made as you are? Why did God create a defective, destructive being? Why would he, loving her as much as he loves you, create one of his children wrong or bad?

You are choosing to divorce. You have that right. Will you do great self-care here, get all your lessons, know all you desired...everything YOU saw in her, the parts you made up, the illusions and the reality...total package...so YOU can grow, heal and thrive?

Heartless...anyone, even BH, would not call me heartless. I was reflected as having a large, generous loving heart...even as I damaged and destroyed...my actions did, my heart had nothing to do with it. I loved my DH through every A...was trying to force him to love me the way I wanted...and stepped over the fact I was being loved, soul to soul, very well. Heartless? My compassion went to others, not my DH...my empathy was foremost in my life...but not in my marriage. Was I heartless, or acting like it?

My DH went to counseling knowing he was having a PA/EA with a woman...and had no problem with that, either. His bitterness was rock hard, entitlement, resentment and lack of respect...overflowing. All blocked reality for him...he could not see anything but for the pain he was escaping...because he believed he lived through others, and I had stopped reflecting him as he desired...I had erased him...annihilated him...just as I believed he had me...not real, only our perceptions...and he was doing it to himself as surely as I had to myself.

Did you live through her, Cor? Depend on her to reflect you, tell you who you were? When it went well and you earned your great reflection, she gave it back...and when you didn't, you earned your punishment and strived to do better to be reflected better?

Living without mirrors is how God directed us to live...do not point out a speck in another's eye when there is a plank in our own...this wasn't intended as condemnation, I believe, but as using what God put in us, projection...to find more of who we really are by seeing it clearly in others. What gets us going, hurts, riles or abhors us...is in us. I learned this through the Villagers exercise...God's design. All we need to know to understand, embrace and love all of his creation, ourselves...he has put in us those tools...if we choose to use them.

This is not self-bashing, but self-embracing.

Can you equally rant about yourself? Your choices? Can you free yourself to say, "I felt this way when she did this...and thought that, when she did this...and believed this and that when she said this..." so you can know what in you drew you to her...to marriage...to believing this was your equal partner, not a victim being rescued...an equal partner to you?

Would you consider that to judge another as soulless tells your own self you could be soulless, too? Human to human...made by the same hand with the same freedom, responsibility and love...your self fears your judgment of others...because it hears you judging self...and creates pain...because it knows. If WW is heartless, then self hears you saying you are...because you have a standard of making others' actions as WHO they are, not what they do...which limits your being to doing...earning love and punishment...from other humans. Which makes you a slave to others' truth...THEIR feelings, thoughts, beliefs and perspectives...which betrays you to your core...each time.

OUCH!

You are whole, complete, wonderfully made, lovable, valuable and worthy...without a word spoken or an action taken.

Anger is part of grieving...so is bargaining, denial, sadness and acceptance. To live well, we must grieve well...and to do that thoroughly, we must identify what we're grieving and what we've really lost.

Would you consider this rant to be your way of saying what you are not saying? To deceive yourself?

"I have failed expectations crushing me. I feel severe betrayal, abuse, torment...I feel angry, fearful and full of pain. I believe I have been destroyed, spat on and ignored because <blank>."

Straight out, highest honest...directly. Giving yourself permission to get to your source...what you banked on, believed of someone which proved untrue to date; what you chose to believe, think and perceive. Sharing who you are directly OWNS who you really are to self...and there is peace, acceptance, appreciation, love and admiration in doing that.

LA

Thank you again for the post LA, I am grateful for your willingness to stay and type and delve into this with me. You are an inspiration to many people here including me.


I judge because it is necessary to make known what is moral and right and what is unjust and damaging. To pronounce it and state when I see an injustice happening. Where would we be if no one stated that adultery was wrong, as some in our culture believe? Or they may at least believe it is an understandable outlet for sexual frustration or emotional need since we are in fact just human.

If I don't judge her adultery as wrong, and by that meaning stating it as such, then how would she know it was wrong? Sure, God can convict her by the Holy Spirit, but how would she know she were being convicted if she had never heard about sin in the first place? Tolerating sin and not confronting it can be as damaging as the initial sinful act. Those who advocate sin are just as guilty of it in God's eyes. And while my judging or not judging cannot eradicate nor invent sin in this world, if I don't stand up and say, I believe this is wrong, then where do others who may not know any better hear a voice of reason?

If she had judged better would she have made such a destructive personal choice? If she had discerned between moral and immoral behavior, would she have kept company with people who supported her decision to cheat, whispered lies to her about my shortcomings toward her, and filled her head with false ideals about me and our marriage? She was deceived because she chose entitlement over her own health, that is how deceiving sin is, it tells us to risk all we have for an illusion of fulfillment, to literally defile ourselves for a sensation, for pleasure. Pride leads us there, ignoring the better judgment of others, or even ourselves by way of envy or resentment to bring us to a place of moral subjectivity, where there is no right and no wrong, only what is satiating for that moment, leading to repetative disgrace.

I know, I've been there and I know it leads to nothing. I played my part in it years before and now desire something better, purer... which is Christ.

But my WW did not know these things, at least from my perspective, and I wanted to help instill that sense of morality in her. The more I commented on culture, politics, and the television shows she admired, she disconnected from me. I saw her going in the opposite direction and I wanted to help her see the flaw in that thinking, because I had been there before! Not to tear her down or insult her "opinions," but to help steer her toward a better understanding as much as I could.

I was wrong. I was wrong about how I related to her. But I was never wrong in that I told the truth. I made judgments based upon understanding, as I try to do now. For me to say she is soulless is a hack, but for me to say she has chosen a path of pain and disillusionment for her future is legitimate, I think.


You're right though, what we say reflects our hearts, and to say she should be condemned is an indicator that I believe in the condemnation of others, maybe even myself if I screw up. I am, and have always been, my own harshest critic, my own worst enemy. And that time must come to an end. It is happening today, in fact, but it is happening slowly. But it must in order to happen completely.


I wanted to measure up in her eyes sure, but in most ways I simply wanted someone to share life with. She was so cut off and walled up I could not get through to her in at least the way I thought I needed to. I truly lacked understanding and knowledge as to how to deal with it. I honestly didn't know so many things that I am only learning now.

So... the tragedy is that I feel heartbreak for the decision my WW has made. For the guilt she will have to endure. And this is not me condemning her, this is... unable to change it, just as we are unable to cheat the forces of gravity. I wanted to help her realize this... I just can't believe her "solution" was to cheat on her marriage. Has her conscience shown?

Cor,

You're welcome. It's a two-way street, I believe...I receive as much as I give, easily...

Do you believe that being harsh on yourself is a good thing? A true and righteous thing? Would you be self-condemning and punishing if you KNEW you would be that way to others, as well, because God didn't make humans to live imbalanced lives?

Why did you want to measure up in her eyes? Measure up to what? How high? Did you already measure up in your own? Under the same dynamic in God's design, if you didn't know and embrace who you really were, without measuring...how could you honestly embrace who she really was? Can you see how loving the sinner and not the sins IS the foundation for relationships, even ours with God?

Would you consider you had a pursuer/withdrawer relationship? You felt distance, craved intimacy and pursued...she felt engulfed, consumed, overwhelmed and retreated...you felt rejected, shut out and withdrew; then she felt safe, not consumed or taken over...and pursued you a bit...back and forth, back and forth...not two people standing still, staying present, sharing lives?

I fear your judgment, your focus on her will block all you can learn about your power, limits and will stunt your life.

Your beliefs are valid...they are yours. I used the plank/spec advice to flip things over...if I felt shut out, I opened myself more...when I felt rejected...I accepted myself more...

Cor, I heard in my head in my awful times...when I was lost in my sins..."Let them find their way." I heard this phrase and have heard it since...and I didn't flip that over for me then...that only I could find my way...not live through other's eyes and not judge God's eyes, either...he gave me my own...and my choice to find my way.

What you cannot believe...allow that you, yourself, cannot believe and leave it there. Do not take into judgment of others...

Finding our own roads of redemption for our sins...from God and from other humans is not a short...it is long...may I hazard to say your "job" is not to measure that road, only to fervently believe it exists...for everyone...because it does.

For all you now know that you didn't know before...do you have forgiveness, acceptance, understanding and joy in your heart? Do you celebrate who you are now? Do you love who you were...doing the best you knew then with what you KNEW then?

God does...every moment...loving your WW right now...in her entirety...trust him to look out for her guilt, her disillusionment...he gave you no control and took none for himself.

Do not guess what you cannot know...know reality. Your WW cheated on her marriage...and it was about her, not you. She chose to cheat herself, you and the marriage. Done.

When you judge actions, do not allow yourself to judge what you cannot...their motivations, emotions, perspective, thoughts, beliefs or perceptions...those are not actions...they are essence...they are their own. Do not judge yours, either...honor yourself and know who you are, and stay there, stay present, to open yourself to God's work, his hands, his love...through you to others.

Did you read "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend? Thought just struck me and I've forgotten if I'd asked you before.

Nuture yourself so you will nuture others respectfully; guide yourself so your life will be a guide; accept yourself not for your actions but your essence, so you will accept others and know what is off limits to your judgment and what is within your domain.

LA

Thanks LA,


No. I think it's a reaction to the unreachable standards I've somehow established for myself. And your feedback has helped me understand that how I treat myself is reflected and finds its outlet in how I treat others. Being harsh toward myself may have passed as simply being disciplined, but instead it is really abusive to me and to people I will and have been intimate with. I know that now. I used to think it was possible to learn things too late, but as long as I am above ground, everything I learn is just in time.


Because she was my wife and I wanted to please her as her husband, I wanted that so she would want to please me. I was not placing all my value in her, not at all, but I still wanted to make her happy although... yes, part of my self-image was based upon how she reacted to me. This is a hard thing to explain... my worth was not wrapped up entirely in her, no, but had I received more love than apathy, I think my propensity to try to achieve with her would not have been so strong. Make sense? And that leads to the next question...


Yes. Although it was very difficult for me to see when she was pursuing me. I only saw her distancing her from me. Looking back now and some things I've learned about her, she did try, just not very plainly in my eyes. So then I would hurt her by withdrawing all love and attention from her, leaving her to starve alone, hoping she would break down and come back with a gush of affection and SF. It hardly ever worked... usually never.


Yes, I do have those things in my heart as a matter of fact. I just talked with my WW last night. I knew she would call so I told myself before hand to treat her with love and to humanize her as much as possible. I was stronger, more lucid in thought and speech and more loving toward her than I have been in months.

We were talking about the divorce process and she proceeded to tell me she thought I was being unfair based on "priciple" about a certain detail. She was telling ME about principles, meaning she still expects me to hold up my end when I agree to something, but apparently she has missed the fact that she has had an affair and is filing for divorce.

I can't tell if my agreement to her request is weakness or a soft and forgiving heart, and a willingness to move forward toward solutions. It seems any attempt to teach her a lesson is futile. I swear, trying to get her to accept a differing point of view from her own is like trying to lift a boulder. She simply will never budge.

Sometimes I get on myself for being too "nice," but where is the difference between "too nice," being weak -- and being compassionate, and open to solutions. Either way I wonder if she feels like she "won." From my perspective, I did not give in, but instead I choose not to quarrel over small details in which she apparently hangs her pride.

I could attempt to deny her this request and possibly extend the divorce for weeks and months, but I chose not to. Still, I wonder if I'm being too soft when the "world" says to be hard, strong and uncompromising, especially in divorce. She knows deep down that I won't fight her much on this anymore, I believe she is trying to take advantage of me, by manipulating the fact that I hold integrity and honor very high. It's as though... again... like she has no heart. As though she never had a feeling for me in her life. I don't understand how someone can act this way.


If all beliefs are equal, then there is nothing worth living for except pleasure and sensation, i.e. happiness, sex, carnality, emotion. I don't think you are saying this, you are commenting on imposition rather than teaching, influencing and sharing. Beliefs reflect truths, and are best when taken from the Word of God. Beliefs can be life-saving and help us avoid suffering. They can be legislated by law, but work best in a marriage when not imposed onto each other by loving, caring friends. I hope that paragraph made sense.


I have not. I would like to pick it up sometime. I want and desire to have a good marriage. I look forward to having a family, a loyal wife, and children (whatever they end up being like).


I wish I could see some evidence of this. This frustrates me about God, because he promises the road of adultery is painful and consequential and yet I see no consequences for her actions. Do I want her to suffer? Yes, I do. Do I want her to come back to God and repent and live her life for Christ, also? Absolutely. But why does God warn us so much if someone can simply walk away from a marriage, cheat and seemingly just go on with life? What's stopping me from doing the same? Why not just go please my senses? Where is the justice in this world?


Yes, I need to forgive her continually. I don't want continue judging her but just give it to God. I think when the divorce is final I will have some more closure over this. As I explained already, this is her divorce, these are her wishes and yet she doesn't seem to grasp the gravity of what she is doing. If that is judging than what should I say instead? That she knows exactly what she is doing and simply chooses to avoid doing the respectful, healthy thing at every turn?

I may make a handful of mistakes today but at least I'll try to learn from them tomorrow.

Cor,

"I used to think it was possible to learn things too late, but as long as I am above ground, everything I learn is just in time."

Big kudos and much rejoicing from me to you, hearing you acknowledge this...may I ask if you feel this all the way through you...embracing who you are, more like discovering this about yourself, not correcting something wrong, but something unnecessary you had with you, those unreachable standards...which you may have adopted early on, long before adulthood? So now you can say, "Ahhh" which is release, like self-affection and acceptance?

I really like how you said you didn't obtain your total self-worth from her reflecting you...but some of it. That middle area is very true, I think...still enough to say to yourself that by basing some, even a little, of who you say yourself to be THROUGH her, led to her being responsible for what she could not control...and I suspect she put a lot of her value and self-worth on you to fill for her...am I close?

Knowing this about yourself is a great way to understand mutuality...we can be enmeshed...deriving what is ours alone from others, most likely our partners or parents...and they also doing that through us...may seem to work until one of you stops...which reveals the flaw to such a system...because reflecting ourselves enables us to shine for each other...mutuality in intimacy, not bounced light waves. I believe you can really see this difference now...just that the connection seemed firmer, more solid, enmeshed...and it isn't...it's sneakily destructive...because as we reveal our true selves to each other, we begin to not reflect the other in the same way...normal chaos can ensue...when really, it's a belief alignment...big growth area.

My A's were my attempts to get someone to reflect me in the way I wanted to be reflected...to constantly replace that reflection (by replacing those who held my mirrors)...until I took it back into my own hands. I hope this helps you understand why I am not defending your WW, only understanding that there comes a time when this system of living externally fails. I believe it's God's way of answering our prayers, to show us authentic love, for ourselves and others. Feels very odd, even disconnecting...because we are disconnecting from our habit of love and engaging authentic loving beliefs.

Would it surprise you to know that your words, "self-image" is what I hold as the culprit for enmeshment, encroachment, judgment, resentment...a whole bunch of stuff which thwarts our heart's desire? God made self...your self...and we made our self-image...like a child's drawing at a very early age...I've come to view this as my first affront to God, breaking his first commandment, because I essentially replaced what he created, me, with an image, an idol, which had to be served through judgment, refinement, to earn love from other humans, and got in my way of understanding and embracing God.

Like a W and WW, they sure look the same. And they are not. Releasing our self-image and embracing our self is celebrating God's work, humbling ourselves to know we cannot create anything comparable to it. It is the true way we live in freedom, responsibility and love, every moment...which is in deep companionship with God.

Yes, I thoroughly believe had you perceived you receiving more love than apathy that you would have not tried so hard to instill, change or persuade your wife. I do. I was the same way...and I found out that the more I cleared up my own stuff inside, the more I perceived how much I already was loved...deeper, fuller than I'd imagined. Abundant life.

Being a fellow pursuer...I think you can relate to an effortful life...where we value our full-hearted effort, unflagging...which means we also are riled by lack of effort...which adds to our urges to make others understand and know us...persuade, instill, etc. Would that resonate within you?

Does it surprise you to understand that withdrawers (which we are, also) withdraw from fear? Fear of being consumed, inadequate, fear of failure and annihilation (being taken over by another person)? I was astonished that this was what my DH was experiencing when I pursued...because after I pursued, was withdrawn from, then I would withdraw...as if I could protect myself from him, from what seemed to be his rejection of me...by rejecting him.

Reminds me of me as a child and my sister...she's two years older...that's where I began pursuer/withdrawer, earning and punishment, reward and withdrawal...all or nothing.

"Yes, I do have those things in my heart as a matter of fact. I just talked with my WW last night. I knew she would call so I told myself before hand to treat her with love and to humanize her as much as possible. I was stronger, more lucid in thought and speech and more loving toward her than I have been in months."

How did you feel? Did you feel love inside of you, flowing over...doing this for you, for who you really are? Was it freeing at all? Delightful for you?

"We were talking about the divorce process and she proceeded to tell me she thought I was being unfair based on "priciple" about a certain detail. She was telling ME about principles, meaning she still expects me to hold up my end when I agree to something, but apparently she has missed the fact that she has had an affair and is filing for divorce."

Here is where you slipped...into habit. Yes, on the surface it is audacious and unreasonable for her to hold you to a principle when she's violating so many...go deeper. She saw you and your principles. What if she has to tear down yours because she doesn't know where she ends and you begin? She hurts because of what you do and feel...not you doing it...hold to your principle, Cor, anyway. It's yours. Her opinion is hers. Honor that. Listen and repeat...acknowledge you hear her desire and you do not compromise your principles for others. That makes it about you, not her.

Do you think you think this way because you aren't believed? I know what you're facing, what you've experienced...a gut-tearing pain, persisting for months...incredulous shock over what damage another human can do...I believe you. I know she's doing this. My effort here is to be clear that half of it...half of that pain of betrayal, is yours...and you can forgive yourself, stop doubling your pain, through knowing what she says, thinks, feels, believes, perceives...reasons...is all hers. Not yours. Doesn't say a single thing about you at all...which is what injecting respect into your life and living from it is all about. Recognizing what is hers and getting it away from you...over there...where it has belonged all along.

"I can't tell if my agreement to her request is weakness or a soft and forgiving heart, and a willingness to move forward toward solutions."

When you compromise on your own principle, you are self-betraying and you may see it as if she's doing it to you...when it's you doing it to yourself. There is no love in doing that, I believe, because there is no truth.

As a reformed pleaser, I KNOW how damaging and destructive I was when I did this...gave up tiny chunks of myself because I loved the reward of a smile or being thought of kindly...all outside my control...and pleasing is abusive and manipulative...the way I did it. By agreeing to something which sacrifices something in you, you are telling her that she isn't smart enough, strong enough or mature enough to accept your disagreement. See, I figured out how much I put others down because I wanted to be lifted up...not realizing I was stepping on their head to do that.

"It seems any attempt to teach her a lesson is futile."

It's disrespectful and abusive.

"I swear, trying to get her to accept a differing point of view from her own is like trying to lift a boulder."

This is where you keep feeding your resentment and pain unnecessarily. If you acknowledge her belief is different, show her choice to believe it, and NOT take it inside you, then there is no trying to get her to do anything. State what her viewpoint is and leave it. It's not yours, doesn't have to be...never had to be...yours. Why do you think she doesn't own her stuff? Because you keep trying to put your stuff ON her...please stop.

"She simply will never budge."

She hasn't because you've left no room for her to be herself, have her own thoughts, feelings and beliefs...constantly judged, told no, you're not right...you're thinking wrong...she heard it long before you, in her family of origin and ever since...please release this from yourself out of love and respect. Please?

"Sometimes I get on myself for being too "nice," but where is the difference between "too nice," being weak -- and being compassionate, and open to solutions."

POJA...agree to nothing which you are not enthusiastic about...to protect yourself from taking resentment poison and waiting for another person to die.

"Either way I wonder if she feels like she "won.""

Why do this? Why would you wonder in this manner, instead of asking yourself that question? Did you lose?

"From my perspective, I did not give in, but instead I choose not to quarrel over small details in which she apparently hangs her pride."

Big DJ here.

"I could attempt to deny her this request and possibly extend the divorce for weeks and months, but I chose not to."

Again, if the principle matters, then weeks or months do not. If this is you not wanting, in reality, to have it extended out that long, then own that. Decide for you, from you, about you...

"Still, I wonder if I'm being too soft when the "world" says to be hard, strong and uncompromising, especially in divorce."

This is why Jesus expressly said to not listen to the world, be of the world, but of God. We will have no clarity, no rest, no assurance if we do not act in our highest honesty...and accept our desires. If your desire was to look reasonable, you were feeding your self-image. If the issue wasn't large to you at all, and you accepted her request because it didn't violate your principle, then you were honoring true self.

"She knows deep down that I won't fight her much on this anymore, I believe she is trying to take advantage of me, by manipulating the fact that I hold integrity and honor very high."

Every time you betray yourself you violate your integrity and honor. You lie. Each time you've said, "That's fine" because others would like you more, think of you better, and you created resentment in yourself for them not following through on your unspoken bargain, you have manipulated and controlled...and deceived, yourself and others. Please know this...where your quandry lays inside you between "nice" which is a judgment, and "too nice", also a judgment, is that you overstepped being authentic, choosing to act from who you really are, and instead, fed your self-image, starved self.

"It's as though... again... like she has no heart. As though she never had a feeling for me in her life. I don't understand how someone can act this way."

Can you see how you feed your judgment to the size of a giant, and it's throttling your life, your heart, perception and perspective? You are causing your true self endless pain. Please stop. It's a spiral. Allow your focus to shift from you, to her...tag her onto your thoughts, and your focus is vacuumed inside her, and then you pour on the corrosive battery acid of judgment, deciding to believe she never never had a feeling for you in her life. That battery acid is ruining your heart and you're doing that to you through DJs.

Please revoke those permissions...you are worthy and valuable...and your choice to believe she loves you is yours, and yours alone...no proof required...as is your choice to love yourself entirely...please do not judge what God says you are not allowed to...that is her feelings, thoughts, perceptions, beliefs and perspective.

"If all beliefs are equal, then there is nothing worth living for except pleasure and sensation, i.e. happiness, sex, carnality, emotion."

How do you arrive at this conclusion? What I believe is valid...what you believe is valid...even about beliefs...my belief in you is worth living for...my belief in myself is...and in God...and in marriage...in life itself.

"I don't think you are saying this, you are commenting on imposition rather than teaching, influencing and sharing."

Sharing is the key...we are told to go and spread the Good News...not beat it into others...to SHARE it. Share all of our own stuff with others...be intimate with everyone, highest honesty, our premise in life to emulate God's respect for us and others.

We judge actions, not people. Not within our domain.

"Beliefs reflect truths, and are best when taken from the Word of God. Beliefs can be life-saving and help us avoid suffering. They can be legislated by law, but work best in a marriage when not imposed onto each other by loving, caring friends. I hope that paragraph made sense."

Uhm, no...God's choice extends to influence...what we allow, how much and who from really has an impact on our lives. It's why I ask for God's guidance, assurance...so that I choose wisely, consciously, and with pure intent. Why I pray before I post, to clear my own influence out from under his...and know that I have no control over you in any manner...or anyone else...and REJOICE that I do not...celebrate and praise his loving choice to give us pure choice and no control, limited influence.

I think you were backending into your WW again...I don't think that paragraph was about you...please help me out.

Pick up the book sooner than later...it's biblically based...and I believe it outlines God's desire for boundaries in all relationships...especially the one we have with ourselves.

When you look for consequences, you are looking at now...not in God's time and way. I can tell you affirmatively that living that way, a serial cheater, was full of extreme pain, rejection, cyclical depression, self-loathing and punishment. And that was before, during and after...the drug is a panacea...not real...fantasy life doesn't last, it goes in bouts of relief...and guilt and shame are the most initimate emotions I experienced...constant companions.

That's what made the drug, the relief from feeling awful, so powerful...deeper my guilt, higher my relief, back into deeper guilt, up and down...thirsting for peace, confidence, love...and not feeling those things from anyone.

I thought I loved so hard and well...and couldn't feel truly loved. How could I? Self-image cannot feel love...only approval, admiration, appreciation, acceptance...and it's false, because my self-image was false! "I know you don't really love me" was what I felt all the time. What a sorrowing way to live.

"If you really knew me, you wouldn't love me."

Discounted every loving act towards me because I had "tricked" my DH into acting that way...when we manipulate, we believe we are manipulated.

How can I perceive authentic love when I cannot love authentically?

The only justice in this world is inside of you. Treat yourself lovingly, and you will feel deeply loved. Treat yourself respectfully, and you will feel respected. That is true justice...highest order...God's design. And you can have great rewards in this world for honoring God's creation in yourself. Not demanding it of the world...where you have no control and limited influence. You are a human being...not a human doing. You are loved intrinsically...and you'll know that without doubt, when you look inward, without judgment.

Forgive her continually? Why?

Because she offends you? Blames you? Did you know that in God's design she can't really do that? You have to take offense...take blame...for you to experience it. Yes, you. Just as you have to create resentment within yourself...no one can put it on you against your will, your choice to take it. See how respectful God was not only to us, but for protecting his creations from each other, as they grow and learn, struggle?

This is your divorce...you are agreeing to it. You have your part and power...she cannot make you grant her wishes...you choose to...know why...accept why...and embrace your own choices...so you can own your life and thrive. Respect she knows...she is as capable, whole and complete as you are...intact and marvelously made, same hands.

I don't think you'll be able to do that until you realize you are truly made that way. As are we all.

LA

Thanks for your last post LA. I appreciate it always.


This makes a lot of sense to me. The "I know you don't really love me" is how I have often felt. I want to be rid of this thinking, because it will always sabotage my relationships.

I really don't see myself as a needy person, but as soon as I get in a relationship -- take my marriage for example -- suddenly I'm trying hard to be valued. I get agitated, maybe I feel like I'm losing my independence, I don't know. It becomes intense for me. I then have to control it so I can manage where it's heading. Manage my image, my respect level, to not make a mistake, be the perfect lover, romancer, yet resent the fact that I have to perform, so I begin to resent my spouse, and then I resent myself.

AHHHHHHHH!

It reminds me of one of the last lines in the movie Bull Durham, when Kevin Costner finally just tells Susan Sarandon "I just want to be." He didn't want to have to do anything to "perform" anymore, but to let it all go and just be himself at a transparent, unguarded level.

I wish I could just be myself in a relationship. I think I can, but what happens when I don't "measure up" and there is a problem, will I get defensive? Will I feel inadequate? Will I withdraw for fear of being hurt? Or will I replace fear with love? For myself and for my wife? I chose love last time, after the fear became too painful, it was just too late for my WW.

One problem has been as though somewhere deep down I feel like I don't deserve to be there. As if my wife/gf would truly be happier if she were with someone else in the long run. Then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and guess what, my WW has affirmed that fear.

I don't understand why I do it, only that I'm now just understanding that it was happening. So I recognize it now, that I have been acting this way. Seeing myself as not good enough, not being able to measure up. I need to move beyond this, I will eventually but it will be a daily attempt to change my thinking.

I still struggle with the insecurity of always wondering, "will she respect me? Will she see the worth in me?" It's not up to her, it's up to God and myself -- but then that doesn't mean I shouldn't care about what she thinks or believes. Then I would truly just be an abusive person.


Aha! The answer to my question. Thank you once again, LA. This is a great piece of knowledge, wisdom, whatever you want to call it, I like it. Loving myself, being kind to myself, not wielding the knife. "Drop the knife!" I know what you mean when you say stop stabbing yourself. It makes so much more sense to me know when I think of it like that. And I have done that in the past... I want to give up the dagger for good.


I think you're on to something here. I just don't know how to stop desiring this from other people. The measuring stick is there in full force sometimes. Because I feel like if I don't believe what others' say I am being disrespectful to them. You can see how this adds up to a lonely existence by avoiding people that may not uphold the self-image I want upheld I relegate myself to being a lonely person. Then by only being around people I know will treat me consistently and how I want to be treated I sacrifice meeting new people and only become more one-sided and sort of a one-dimensional person. Not full and confident but smallish and fearful.

I'm spent a lot of time trying to avoid. I don't want to avoid, I want to be myself with no apologies. Myself with respect but not be intimidated into believing I am lesser than anyone else. Taking hits is part of life. I want to be the man who can take the hits and keep going. Knowing I am up against the tempest and moving forward anyway. You know one thing I've learned is that sunny days are great and comfortable and some of the best times in life, but sometimes we feel most alive when we're in the middle of a storm and coming out of one can be one of the most rewarding points in our existence. Maybe that's why Paul says there is joy in suffering.

I desire to be humble yet confident. Full of truth yet graceful. Bold yet respectful.

I have much to learn. I just don't want to confuse masculinity with despotism. I want to experience real intimacy and submit to my wife yet not yield my strength and awareness.

True intimacy, to just be and be respected and sharing it all -- being able to be vulnerable and not have my wife confuse that with being weak.

I was betrayed and now I need to realize not all women will do this to me and that I don't have to act the way I did ever again.

Cor,

Great to see your post.

"I wish I could just be myself in a relationship. I think I can, but what happens when I don't "measure up" and there is a problem, will I get defensive?"

Measuring up...what does that mean to you?

Will you get defensive? That would be up to you..."I feel defensive" is a great way of stating what you're feeing and NOT acting on it. You can feel defensive from perceiving you're being attacked...talk about what you're feeling but do not defend...listen and repeat helps tremendously with this...your feelings are valid...your perception may be off...we are conditioned to perceive what we've experienced before...even when we haven't truly experienced it before.

"Will I feel inadequate? Will I withdraw for fear of being hurt? Or will I replace fear with love? For myself and for my wife? I chose love last time, after the fear became too painful, it was just too late for my WW."

If you feel inadequate, state it..."I'm feeling measured and found wanting, is that what is happening here?" With a daily goal of clarity instead of a goal of NOT feeling inadequate, you may discover that a lot of what you perceived came from DJs and not reality. Sorting that out is not bashing yourself, 'k?

Will you choose to withdraw for fear of being hurt? Up to you...withdrawing is a form of abuse when done as punishment, retaliation...can feel the same to the other person...do you know the difference between feeling pain and being hurt?

There are times when what people say will feel hurtful...intent matters. If someone says "You're mean" that's hurtful, intentionally hurtful...the hurting back kind. If someone says, "I feel degraded" you may experience pain, fear you did it, you degraded...that's feeling pain in yourself.

So which do you choose to withdraw from? Both, if you can't tell the difference...and does withdrawing from feeling pain stop you from feeling it? Not in the least.

When you say you chose to replace fear with love and it didn't work...(that's what I got), I have to ask you...so, do you live from evidence, from results, or intentions?

If you choose to come from love, stay present, and live respectfully, you can still feel pain, deal with hurtful actions and words...the difference will be you will know you have no control and be happy about it...true freedom and responsibility...so much less pain with healthy boundaries. Now, that's you choosing from your code and letting go the response...living in real truth, not manipulatively. If you choose based on what gets you what you want (protected from pain) rather than living to your own standards, then you will determine what you believe based on what worked and what didn't...only you will continue to refine your goal of what makes others not hurt you, instead of focusing on your standard of considering others in your choice of action.

When is your divorce final?

"One problem has been as though somewhere deep down I feel like I don't deserve to be there. As if my wife/gf would truly be happier if she were with someone else in the long run. Then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and guess what, my WW has affirmed that fear."

You're getting to your core hurts, Corinth...you're getting to a truth inside yourself and I'm honored you shared it with me. You're not alone. This is a painful belief to live from...I know...I remember. You do not believe you are equal to all others made by God's hands, just like you were...why? Why not replace the belief you have (you don't deserve...which makes you inadequate, inferior...with biblical truth? Why not accept that God didn't make superior and inferior people...he didn't make his children that way...nor would you, right?

Our true selves are not anything but whole, made from love, and pure respect by God...get your mind around that belief, hold it with both hands, let your heart drink it in...and KNOW this is God's truth...he never made no junk.

Would you consider that where this real feeling is coming from is the self-image you created, which you create and maintain, which is sensitive to not measuring up, being inadequate and needy...because you created it, which tells self God's work ain't good enough? You created a false image to earn love better from other humans...it's very creation is based on JUDGMENT...God's creation isn't. Can you see how one would feel pretty darn undeserving if you lived from your own created you...which you began picking and choosing, moulding, around the age of six or seven, maybe younger?

You have great faith, Cor...you have the ability to choose to believe what you cannot touch, see or taste...use this within yourself to separate those two selves...the one God made (long before you were conceived) from love, and the one you made, long before you knew you were doing it, from fear.

"I don't understand why I do it, only that I'm now just understanding that it was happening. So I recognize it now, that I have been acting this way. Seeing myself as not good enough, not being able to measure up. I need to move beyond this, I will eventually but it will be a daily attempt to change my thinking."

You don't move beyond it, you find out within you it was never a valid belief. Change your beliefs, weed out those really old, hidden ones...and live from them...which changes your thinking, emotions, reactions and perceptions. I believe you can better see why you have this false belief.

"I still struggle with the insecurity of always wondering, "will she respect me? Will she see the worth in me?" It's not up to her, it's up to God and myself -- but then that doesn't mean I shouldn't care about what she thinks or believes. Then I would truly just be an abusive person."

The all or nothing perception is a signal that you're closer to your inner child than your adult thinking, Cor. If you respect yourself, value yourself, then others will to...that does not mean you don't care about what others think or believe...in fact, in order to respect yourself, you must respect others...that their thoughts, beliefs, perceptions, feelings and perspectives are their own. Does not define who you are. God made it so others cannot define us without our permission. Revoke that permission.

See the difference?

Love isn't going into someone else's stuff and claiming credit or blame for it...it is staying in our own God-given responsibilities and respecting others as equally wonderfully made...direspecting is taking responsibility for what isn't yours...if she feels anxious, you're the cause...if she feels comforted, you're the cure...playing an emotional god...staying present, respectful, listening, validating, acknowledging...that's real love...that's what God does...

See the all or nothing in your perception? I'm not saying to not care at all about what others think or feel or believe...respect what they do...do not allow what is theirs to define what is yours. There's no respect in that.

I believe, where there is no respect, there is no love. God is love...he created us in respect and love...by giving us choice...

Did you know your posts got me to that knowledge of pure justice? That two-way street, that deep desire for equitable...is there...in us...all the time. You did that. I am deeply grateful. That's how sharing your stuff, me sharing my stuff, gets us clearer on God's design, our lives, ourselves. Without you, your patience, endurance and highest honesty, I may not have gotten to that...which really resonated in me, why people crave justice, fight and rebel, because they often are not being just within themselves...it isn't about humans being bad or wrong or helpless...it is about us, who we really are, and seeing ourselves with clarity, not judgment.

I love that..."Drop the knife!"...back away from your pattern. Yes. Yes. Learning that what I choose to wield on myself, so do I to others...that justice, inherent choice.

Do you think that acknowledgement got you to where you could really see where you felt undeserving? And that the knife could never get you to deserving, no matter how much you punished yourself?

Takes a lot of love, acceptance, and changing our beliefs to drop the dagger permanently. Sounds like a wonderful journey to me. Every step of the way.

"Because I feel like if I don't believe what others' say I am being disrespectful to them. You can see how this adds up to a lonely existence by avoiding people that may not uphold the self-image I want upheld I relegate myself to being a lonely person."

You really nailed this for me...that twisted belief about respect is EXACTLY why I maintained a disrespectful life, unaware of my premise...because my mom taught me to believe what she believed, feel what she felt, think what she thought as a form of respect. Wow. Thank you for that. And yes, the natural result would be loneliness...loneliness for self...for who I really am, wouldn't it? Big wow. That was the key word to each time I shreded my marriage, myself and my DH...the word lonely...the feeling of loneliness...which reinforced I was undeserving and incapable.

Thank you for sharing that, Cor...really big wows from me. Of great help.

I've discovered in living from respect that there are a lot less hits out there...maybe ten a year...because I choose the perception of separate and equal...once I knew that most of the daily hits were from others defining me, I stopped those hits...they weren't about me to begin with...they were about the person seeking to define me. So, taking hits...as a way to see more, know more...isn't so awful...

Storms are growth and wonder...I agree.

Avoidance...we're taught to avoid what is ours...to push it away, like our God created selves...to avoid our feelings...and reality patiently, relentlessly teaches us that is not possible. Our feelings are...they are valid, real information, for us to discern, not avoid. Self asserts again and again and we can feel pain from our denial of true self while we scrabble to recreate again and again self-image, which abandons and condemns true self. Us doing it to us, feeling it from the outside. When we stop, our lives flourish...avoidance can get us nowhere but to what it really is...a void. A stepover. Fantasy.

"I desire to be humble yet confident. Full of truth yet graceful. Bold yet respectful."

You already are. What you're discovering now is who you really are. You were born humble, whole, complete, in truth, in grace, respect and acceptance. Be bold with yourself, Corinth...you're uncovering what is already within you.

"I have much to learn. I just don't want to confuse masculinity with despotism. I want to experience real intimacy and submit to my wife yet not yield my strength and awareness."

Sounds like learning discernment. Me, too.

"True intimacy, to just be and be respected and sharing it all -- being able to be vulnerable and not have my wife confuse that with being weak."

True intimacy is knowing yourself and sharing who you are with others. Doeesn't depend on others, Cor. That's true vulnerability and self-respect and love. You cannot control what anyone else perceives...you can only know and share your truth and respect others' truth as theirs...not yours. You're already doing that here.

"I was betrayed and now I need to realize not all women will do this to me and that I don't have to act the way I did ever again."

You knew before that humans betray, because we betrayed ourselves for decades...we betray by withholding, withdrawing, lying, our own belief we earn love, have to do right to be right...lots and lots of ways. Begin by not betraying yourself, so you won't betray others. There are many others working on this right now...allow God to guide your way...because you take your self with you.

LA

LA,

I have to say right off how helpful these exchanges have been for me. They've helped open up the why's and what's that I've been trying to understand for year and years now. I honestly have been perplexed by my... how can I say this... my false need to receive external affirmation. I say it's false because I don't even really want it, but require it in order to carry on the facade of self-image worship. Deep down I didn't want to be like this but not knowing why it was happening or what I was doing to create the conditions for this need and how I could move past it was, at times, a horrible burden of misgivings and hangups every day. Mindnumbing at its best, acutely maddening at its worst. And believe me, I was not in very good shape a fews times in my life.

Now that I am going through this and am in a place where I can begin to heal and recognize some of these misperceptions, I am instead grateful for my the circumstances I find myself in, however painful they might be, because it has opened my eyes. I have gained more than I have lost, truthfully.

So now I'm wondering, LA. What three things can I do everyday to help me become better? Three exercises in the morning or something, or during the day, little reminders?

To move away from the self-image worship... this has been a
big eye opener for me. The idea that self-image is idolatry has resonated so greatly with me. I find myself drawing from that bit of wisdom everyday.

To move away from placing my worth on external influences. This would be nice. Learning that I accept responsibility for my response to all situations. That I alone have the ability to consider what is threat, abuse, or otherwise and respond in whatever manner I wish.

Other's truths are not always truth, and my truths are not always theirs, although God's truths will prevail I cannot subjugate anyone to mine. In fact, I've heard God is the ultimate pro-choice being, meaning He gave us all the freedom to choose and even while there are ramifications to all choices, He has still allowed it.

If I were God... no way. But, so, I must learn why He chose to do this and learn from that. Understand more why this is the best way to approach relationships. Because in the end, God is more about relationship than He is laws, religion, doxy, dogma, heirarchies, rituals, temples, cathedrals, manuscripts or any other machination we as humans can think of.

That's why God makes so much sense because if He were just an imagined being, created by man, He would be more like what we would want Him to be instead of us having to learn His ways and instead "die to ourselves."

Because relationships He wrote on our hearts and it never leaves us, so when we truly find Him we are thrust into this intimacy we never knew but have always known. Kind of this reverse-reciprocal if that makes sense. Really a miracle -- and by design we are drawn to it.

It makes me realize how much I have been playing against God this whole time and how much He wishes to free me from the bonds I really had no idea I was in.

Lastly (for this list at least) is to move away from the desire to perform and measure and simply accept love from others and myself freely. To learn that love begins by loving oneself and only after this has been achieved, it "radiates" (as you said before LA)... from there.

Filling oneself up with self and God's love, then allowing that grace and forgiveness and love to flow outward from there. An empty shell will only draw from something else, it cannot give or even share when all it can do is fill its own void. Yep. I've tried, it doesn't work. And I blamed others when it didn't work (not that I was the only one failing) but I can see now what I was doing.

"When is your divorce final?"

Soon. She is supposed to serve me any day now, but I haven't heard anything more than that. Her lawyer is supposed to me drawing up the papers. We are going to have a summary dissolution, meaning we both agree to split assests simply dissolve the marriage mutually. I am ready to move on with my life, although part of me will always miss her, she has made it clear she is not willing to forgive people when she's been wronged.

"See the all or nothing in your perception? I'm not saying to not care at all about what others think or feel or believe...respect what they do...do not allow what is theirs to define what is yours. There's no respect in that."

I have always been about all or nothing. If I can't have it all the way, might as well not have it at all. Like, if I don't have the single minded, all or nothing, die at all costs love of the person I'm with, I seriously (and this is ridiculous) I seriously try to achieve that. Now that is my self-image, my ego, my lust for affection trying to bully out everything else. It's maddening, to want to love someone and not even know how to do it or even love yourself. Then to basically demand desire is even worse. I feel like I almost set myself up as being God, then demanded worship. You know what, I think I did, and I don't ever want that to happen again. This is a problem, that I'm willing to recognize but something I would much rather leave at the door, if you see what I mean.

"You really nailed this for me...that twisted belief about respect is EXACTLY why I maintained a disrespectful life, unaware of my premise...because my mom taught me to believe what she believed, feel what she felt, think what she thought as a form of respect. Wow. Thank you for that."

You are welcome. I suppose for every twenty things I can learn from you I might as well hope I can pass one of my own along. No really, I'm pleased this dialogue helps others and I hope that by pouring some of my guts out on this post, others here reading this stuff will find some help as well. This isn't always easy stuff to admit, but if I can expose some of this I may be able to become a better person in the long run.

But yes, my propensity to please others really gets me in trouble, and I still do it -- I did it today. Not to mean I should not be hospitable or kind or accomodating to others' needs, but to be within my own boundaries about it. That is a whole different story, one I will have to spend more time learning about.

"I've discovered in living from respect that there are a lot less hits out there...maybe ten a year...because I choose the perception of separate and equal...once I knew that most of the daily hits were from others defining me, I stopped those hits"

Living from respect. There is one I can use everyday. The key to all human relations is respect. One can even respect their enemies, that is true depth in oneself.

"I desire to be humble yet confident. Full of truth yet graceful. Bold yet respectful."
You already are. What you're discovering now is who you really are. You were born humble, whole, complete, in truth, in grace, respect and acceptance. Be bold with yourself, Corinth...you're uncovering what is already within you."

This is a great thing to hear from someone, LA. This helps... encouragement and compliments always help. Now I realize how much power there is in encouragement. I wish I had used it more with my WW in the past year or so. I understand now how much she desired that from me, but since she rarely showed how much it was hurting her not getting it, I didn't understand that at the time.

"True intimacy is knowing yourself and sharing who you are with others. Doeesn't depend on others, Cor. That's true vulnerability and self-respect and love. You cannot control what anyone else perceives...you can only know and share your truth and respect others' truth as theirs...not yours. You're already doing that here."

Is this ever true. I heard somewhere that we all have something completely unique to give to others and that is ourselves. It sounds kind of hokey but I think about it and it's true. No one else can give someone else what I have in my own ways, persona... idiosyncracies for lack of a better word. They are all mine and I choose how to give and who to give them to, but they are mine, coming from me. Wow, this sounds like a bunch of self-massaging crap sometimes but really it's true.

"Our true selves are not anything but whole, made from love, and pure respect by God...get your mind around that belief, hold it with both hands, let your heart drink it in...and KNOW this is God's truth...he never made no junk."

I'm learning to accept more now. It's still hard. Not judging when you've done it for so long is hard to quit. Discernment is one thing, judging in place of God is another. He asks us to discern and to confront sometimes, but in a way as to be teachers in gentleness. Respecting even those we are shown to correct. Well, at this time it's me who needs much correcting so I accept the criticism as beneficial and necessary.

"If you choose to come from love, stay present, and live respectfully, you can still feel pain, deal with hurtful actions and words...the difference will be you will know you have no control and be happy about it...true freedom and responsibility...so much less pain with healthy boundaries."

This is a good idea to end this on. There are three things right there. "If you choose to come from love, stay present, and live respectfully..."

Giving up control is freeing. My world became so absolutely small when I insisted on controlling it, because I can really only control like maybe an inch by inch square on the floor when I think about it. Not to say I can't manage, or am stupid or something, but to say that I am not the one who calls the shots when it all comes down, so why try?

I'm trying to figure out why but for the last four days I have been an emotional wreck. I'm five months out from d-day and things have been getting better but the last few days have been tough. I have to admit they've been hard.

I'm wondering all over again: how am I ever going to be whole again. Not that I was perfect before this but I'm looking at this now thinking, yeah, I'm going to be a divorced person whose spouse cheated on me. I keep thinking how harsh that is, like what did I really do to deserve this?

It's all coming back around. The questions, the rage, the deep hurt, the lonliness, the aching... thinking I still love her, not understanding what happened, guilt, the feeling of betrayal, mistrust, anger, shame, unhappiness, desperation, need, fear, feeling plagued and the whole time expecting my WW to serve me with papers. But she hasn't yet.

Her great "move" was that she had decided to divorce me, that she never loved me, that I was deficient in X,Y and Z, that she could never be "truly happy" with me, and that she was now "happy" with her decision to cheat, lie, leave and have sex with another man. And I mean really... to give her body to another man while she is married... somehow I cannot grasp that concept. I cannot understand it and yet it is a reality.

I have friends who say things like: well, if two people don't really understand what marriage is like before they sign the papers then it's as though they were going into the marriage under false pretenses. I want to strangle them when they say this. I know they are trying to ease the pain, but really... we can say that about everything in life as a reason or excuse, but look, we're not children. Marriage may not be what we expected but it's not a testing ground for some other "better marriage" in the future.

This whole saying of "this was just a practice run" really upsets me. This was not a practice run, it was a real thing. A real relationship and a real marriage that is over now.

I just want to let this go and I felt like it was getting better and now I'm apparently back to square one again. The hurt welling up again and there's no sign my WW cares at all. Does it make me less of a man that I hurt, I have emotions and my WW doesn't? Or at least doesn't show it?

In some ways I feel like I shouldn't still be feeling this, like a man should just be above it. But I have to say, I cry over this still.

Rough stuff. I am learning all over again about what and why and the rest of it.

Corinth,

You will to a point when you will realize this was NOT about you, and that is why all of the "reasons" she has given don't make much sense. You will come to know that you control your life, and what she thinks or thought has little role to play in your future. You will come to know that you did the best you could at the time, and as you learned better you tried to do better, it is ALL YOU can do.

THe anger is normal, the ups and downs are normal. Accept this and keep working on YOUR life. Your friends are trying to ease the pain, but the reality is you don't get "over" this stuff you get "through" it and that is what you are doing.

You are right a marriage is NOT a trial run, engagements are, going steady is, but marriage??? Nope, it is the real deal. Your sense of lose reflects your sense of commitment, and you should be proud of this fact. Odd isn't it, I am basically to be proud of your pain, but the alternative is to feel no pain, which would imply you were never committed to this marriage or your W. You can do nothing about her apparent lack of interest or empathy but realize it reflects many things in her NONE of which have anything to do with you.

I wish I could tell you something that would make you feel much better, or remove the pain of this, but in all of my years here, I have never found those words, nor have I seen anyone that had them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It is sadly part of this whole mess. But, what has become clear to me after all of this time here, is that you are NOT responsible for her decision to cheat and show no care for you; her H. That is her problem and it will continue to be a problem in her life until she realizes what she did to you.

So hang in there, keep the seat belt strapped tight on the rollercoaster, and "this too shall pass".

God Bless,

JL

Thank you Just Learning

Sometimes, often times, I simply need someone to help me get my head back in the right place.

The anger has been really strong lately as evidenced in my last post. The injustice I keep feeling is the big part. The whole concept of divorce has me livid. I hate divorce so much right now I want to scream. I really want people to quit parsing it especially to me. It is flat out a tragedy... but you're right. The pain will help me grow and she will always bear the burden of her actions until she repents of them.

My duty is to keep learning... live through this season and use it.

Corinth,

You are right keep learning and progressing. It is really the only way. I wish you well, and I hope that this weekend is good to you.

God Bless,

JL

I hope to keep learning. Sometimes I feel as though I'm just spinning my wheels, going one day to the next not really changing much.

I know God wants to teach me through this horrible event in my life but does anyone ever feel like they learned stuff, or realized new things for a while, and then just went back to being their old self again?

It's like, if I'm the one left so confused and doubtful after the divorce and adultery and all that, then is it because I have so much more to learn than her? That is kind of a stupid question, but the point being, if she can carry on so freely with a decision of that magnitude, maybe she has more strength than I do since I didn't even committ adultery and now I am sitting here wondering what to do next.

You see what I mean? My WW, soon to ex, just moves on like a tornado and I'm left with the wreckage. I don't want the ****** wreckage, I want wisdom and understanding and to be able to assert that in my life. But at the same time, it's as though I'm reacting to what she's been doing.

I shouldn't be reacting to her, I should be moving forward with my life. I don't need this confusion or all these questions... God where is justice in all this?

Cor,

I'm sorry I missed your previous posts. I really look forward to reading them--so I'm sorry for me, too.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"That's why God makes so much sense because if He were just an imagined being, created by man, He would be more like what we would want Him to be instead of us having to learn His ways and instead "die to ourselves.""

I think you have a great belief there...if we invented God, we'd do it much differently! Thank you for sharing that. I have the same belief. And I believe that "die to ourselves" is about our self-created image, not our God created one. I believe a lot of what is stated in the bible is for our self-image, not our true selves.

Three things you could do as a mental routine each day...During prayer, repeat respect as your goal, asking God to aid you in understanding to your core, separate and equal. Listen and repeat...even to the radio...to act on your prayer. Say "I am" ten times a day...sync it with your body, if that's a good trigger for you...if you feel fatigued, take a deep breath and say on the exhale, "I am". If you're more visual, say it when you see your feet, your car door, office door, hold your keys, or see a stop sign.

Trust that these three things will be what unifies, embraces true self...aligns yourself and is supportive and loving for you to do for yourself.

"Her lawyer is supposed to me drawing up the papers. We are going to have a summary dissolution, meaning we both agree to split assests simply dissolve the marriage mutually. I am ready to move on with my life, although part of me will always miss her, she has made it clear she is not willing to forgive people when she's been wronged."

Are you saying you have no legal representation in this divorce? Have you obtained advice in any way? You've decided to move on with your life. You're choosing to get all you can learn out of this experience. That's what we're doing here, right?

"I have always been about all or nothing. If I can't have it all the way, might as well not have it at all."

You have chosen this perspective of all or nothing as an adult. You were this way as a child, before you knew you had the power to choose. In your adult experience, is life mostly about all or nothing...or mostly in the middle, at that 90 degrees...sometimes a bit this way or that...but not all or nothing?

I found out why they call this our inner child...comes from our old brain, which has very basic on/off perception...either you're in danger or your safe (not in between); either/or...no middle. When you most perceive yourself and others as all or nothing, you are closest to your old brain, not your reasoning/choosing new brain. There's a disconnect. I was very much this way, too. Seeing the middle took me committed to looking for it, not reacting to it.

"Like, if I don't have the single minded, all or nothing, die at all costs love of the person I'm with, I seriously (and this is ridiculous) I seriously try to achieve that. Now that is my self-image, my ego, my lust for affection trying to bully out everything else."

This isn't ridiculous...it is great awareness. To see where this fear from old brain, all or nothing, comes into your belief system...to be safe is to be loved with everything...or you're not safe. You are now realizing, you're safe all along...that your steady, committed and aware love of self is our safety, our God-designed security...not in others.

"It's maddening, to want to love someone and not even know how to do it or even love yourself. Then to basically demand desire is even worse."

More judgment here...drop it for a moment and state your truth, "I feel crazy now for wanting to love someone and believe I don't know how to do it or love myself. I feel the desire, the craving and great need, and I feel frustrated and despairing when I do."

Cor, you know how to love, how to choose to believe you love and act on it...you haven't done that consciously towards yourself. Your desire and craving will actually diminish at first when you do this. You'll feel less lost...because it's one of the answers you already have inside you, covered over. Which is how we "lose" a lot of stuff without permanently losing anything.

"I feel like I almost set myself up as being God, then demanded worship. You know what, I think I did, and I don't ever want that to happen again."

Again, this may sound horrific to you...my belief it is necessary on the path to self...because God made us in his image; we can create, love, grow, change and be...if you don't choose to stay in that old inner child perspective, you will not set yourself up as being God. You are protected and safe from that because you are learning in all ways how to be truly human. And that's a marvelous homecoming, Cor.

"This is a problem, that I'm willing to recognize but something I would much rather leave at the door, if you see what I mean."

Leaving selves behind creates a lot of pain; like picking ourselves apart for what we don't like in us, eschewing and disowning parts of ourselves. Better to take with...to know, accept and not act on these parts...best way I know is to find those disowned and lost parts (lost being the parts of you emotionally you learned to not allow...sadness, anger, fear, etc.). You are whole...recognizing your wholeness takes a goal...wanna make it to embrace all of who you are...find out where some of the heavy judgment in yourself comes from...make peace with it through acknowledgment and acceptance? Then you'll be free NOT to act on it...because you've been reacting to it your entire life.

To share with you...I believe we all worship ourselves in the most indirect ways...I worshipped my DH...I did...and I had to own that choice, in retrospect, too. Hard thing to do...I did it. You did it. I worshipped him to get to me...he was the god of my reflected self...how much more distracting from reality can we get? Other gods before him...I cherished resentment; loved my anger; fed and nurtured my entitlement. Ugh. These are the other gods, I believe. No wonder I wanted to go out through someone else to get back into me...I was a scary place, full of choices I had no idea I was making.

All because of self-image instead of self.

Lots of self-forgiveness in me now...for all of this...no judgment. When you said she won't forgive...you'll know YOU have forgiven yourself well and true when her non-forgiveness doesn't bother you. That's when you know it's truly hers and hers alone...because you are new. Made new and whole through amends...which you've done...owned to her what you did, that you wouldn't do it anymore...and you crave that very much from her...which is normal, human. So you can be safe...and you already are.

"This helps... encouragement and compliments always help."

Use this new knowledge...it resonated within you...for you. Encourage yourself...when you are brave, state "I'm being brave. I'm choosing to be brave." and know you are. "I'm being open and honest." That's a self-compliment...which sounds more in your mind as a statement of fact...still your choice...acknowledge yourself...and validate what you're doing, anyway.

You immediately looked outside...to spot what you didn't do for others...commit to looking inward first...did I do that for me? Did I do it for others? How we train our brains...routines are deep for a reason...lots of power...repeated choices...so when you begin to do this, it will become habit...so you can't go backwards.

"Wow, this sounds like a bunch of self-massaging crap sometimes but really it's true." Would saying this bit me...an OUCH...for you to stop judging so often, so much? When you say of your own beliefs, "This is crap" there's a self-ouch...would it be truer communication to say, "I've heard this when I believed man-focused was not God-focused. I fear psychology, self-deception and false feeling good by just stating, instead of earning it."

Get to the meat of your own beliefs...let the judgment go...it blocks your own path to yourself...practice stating what you feel. "I feel embarrassed I had this belief, or perception. I am shocked to find I operated from that prejudice (pre-judgment)."


"Discernment is one thing, judging in place of God is another. He asks us to discern and to confront sometimes, but in a way as to be teachers in gentleness. Respecting even those we are shown to correct. Well, at this time it's me who needs much correcting so I accept the criticism as beneficial and necessary."

What if...discernment is stating, "I believe this is right or wrong" rather than, "You shouldn't think, believe or feel that. It's wrong." Confrontation wouldn't look the same...it would become the highest order of sharing, wouldn't? "I cannot support you doing this action. I believe/perceive..." Sure tells self YOUR beliefs matters and you respect others' choices...no correction...unless it's confirmation or correction about something we've stated which is being repeated back.

Criticism is "you're doing this wrong" and I'm not doing that. I'm asking, are you aware? Is this what you want? Is this your goal to act from this? To disown this?

That word is really in my brain as I read your post...so I'm going to pass this own...do you feel your WW disowned you and your marriage? Do you feel like moving on means leaving stuff behind? Would you consider you may have many parts within yourself which you disown...feel shame thinking of?

Since you are brave, true and loving yourself actively, would you consider doing Owning All Your Villagers exercise here?

And I'm pointing out a lot of judgments, though I know you are aware and dedicated to accepting more and judging less. Judgment is insiduous...permeates everything we experience...and makes our experience even judgmental. Difficult to find all the tendrils, in my experience. I point it out not to criticize or correct...only to say, "Here's where I see judgment" just as I say, "Here's where I'm seeing fear."

Remember...where our thoughts are, there is our treasure. If we have a lived with constant judgment in our thoughts, we have taught our selves to treasure it...protect, defend, feed, support...oh, wow...so now, training ourselves that we do NOT need judgment and want it out of our perception, beliefs, perspective and thoughts...that's tough. I truly believe in this purging, though, to grasp how vast our judgment has been. Then we truly can discern when to judge and when not to, in alignment with our adult beliefs.

"Giving up control is freeing. My world became so absolutely small when I insisted on controlling it, because I can really only control like maybe an inch by inch square on the floor when I think about it. Not to say I can't manage, or am stupid or something, but to say that I am not the one who calls the shots when it all comes down, so why try?"

You said this so well for me. I experienced the same freedom...for what felt like the first time...and it pointed out to me where I tried to control what isn't within God's design for me to control. It was a fantasy...me living from my wishful child and not reality. Lots of pain and fear in that, I found out. Freedom doesn't have fear in it...to try to control what we can't ups the level of our fear, and we are more reactive, not active...steps over our choice in our own minds...being free to know where we end and others begin, which is the basis of respect, is powerful. True and real power. Feels like coming home to me.

And through your posts, what comes to mind, is those who believe we invent God...trying to control God would be within inventing him...to soothe our fears...his judgment, his wrath, his mind-blowing love...and when we get what we truly can and cannot control, that urge drops off, doesn't it? To know him is to know him...not to live in fear of...which models well our place as humans on earth...to know and understand...not to judge and fear. Our choice.

"I'm trying to figure out why but for the last four days I have been an emotional wreck. I'm five months out from d-day and things have been getting better but the last few days have been tough. I have to admit they've been hard."

Great sharing, Cor. Thank you.

"I'm wondering all over again: how am I ever going to be whole again."

I believe all humans deal with this wholeness issue...you are already whole...complete...and you self-image habit doesn't believe it...because two were made one, and that's dissolving right now. You have automatic responses in you from your beliefs...including emotions. Feeling incomplete is not being incomplete...it's believing you are. Part of what we look for unconsciously in our partner is parts we've disowned within ourselves...if we have pushed down our anger, then they will most likely be emotional, acting out in anger, like they are doing it for us. Or sad, or whatever...so losing that person feels like losing the disowned part all over again.

"Not that I was perfect before this but I'm looking at this now thinking, yeah, I'm going to be a divorced person whose spouse cheated on me. I keep thinking how harsh that is, like what did I really do to deserve this?"

When you think the word "deserve" you are measuring, judging again. No acceptance in that. Creates anger, as if someone else is taking our choice from us...and you're choosing to divorce, to divorce in this manner, and to move on. Not being at peace with your choice can really come through that distorted mirror of someone else doing it to us...to get our attention. You're choosing this. Your power.

"It's all coming back around. The questions, the rage, the deep hurt, the lonliness, the aching... thinking I still love her, not understanding what happened, guilt, the feeling of betrayal, mistrust, anger, shame, unhappiness, desperation, need, fear, feeling plagued and the whole time expecting my WW to serve me with papers. But she hasn't yet."

Take each emotion (great list!) and trace it...the rage comes from my belief ______; my pain comes from ______; not understanding what happened...do you remember being a child and if you couldn't understand something (usually from or about grownups) you didn't feel responsible for it? What if these emotions are coming from your belief if only you had done this or this; had you known and done that or the other thing? Do you have some background what ifs and if onlys going on?

"Her great "move" was that she had decided to divorce me, that she never loved me, that I was deficient in X,Y and Z, that she could never be "truly happy" with me, and that she was now "happy" with her decision to cheat, lie, leave and have sex with another man."

Her truth NOT the truth. All WS say they want a divorce...not all take the action necessary. They are in conflict, as we all know, when we're truly doing something destructive and our flimsy justifications falter.

"And I mean really... to give her body to another man while she is married... somehow I cannot grasp that concept. I cannot understand it and yet it is a reality."

You cannot go into her mind...so please, respect and don't go there. She did. That's enough to know. Derive no other information from it...because you don't know. You may be wanting desperately to know her mind so you can feel safe in the future...to know another person's mind...get to know your own fear.

"I have friends who say things like: well, if two people don't really understand what marriage is like before they sign the papers then it's as though they were going into the marriage under false pretenses. I want to strangle them when they say this."

Listen and repeat what your friends say...practice. It's not yours. They are stating their truth, not The Truth. I'm a repeating machine, aren't I? Can you see how often you feel "What a horrible thing to believe/perceive/say!"

That part is about you. Taking what they say is good knowledge of them...not your WW or you.

"I know they are trying to ease the pain, but really"

Really? You know they are trying to ease your pain? You have a bunch of disrespectful friends, whose very love is an act of "I can cure your pain"...well, this would contribute the message, as well, that others can cure what ails you...and you can cure them. Listen to what they say...I think their statements play to your deep fear of self-deception...as you've experienced through your WW...and within yourself...good to know. No strangling required.

What about your expectation of them to ease you? Any of that going on? Wanting them to say certain words and not these?

"... we can say that about everything in life as a reason or excuse, but look, we're not children. Marriage may not be what we expected but it's not a testing ground for some other "better marriage" in the future."

Adults react from their inner child...their old brain...a lot of the time. If they react, it's usually from there. We are most in our adult perspective when we consider and then choose to act. And what you believe is valid...marriage is no testing ground...though we can make it full of tests.

"This whole saying of "this was just a practice run" really upsets me. This was not a practice run, it was a real thing. A real relationship and a real marriage that is over now."

If you were to believe your marriage was a practice run, you might feel used--shame, anger, fear, pain. If you're feeling that way, you might look to see if you believe your marriage was for life and hers was for right now...and see if that's an accurate belief...or if half of it is a DJ.

"I just want to let this go and I felt like it was getting better and now I'm apparently back to square one again."

Please do not choose to see yourself at square one. There is no such thing. And it's a DJ to self. Hurts a lot.

"The hurt welling up again and there's no sign my WW cares at all."

Back to DJs to others here...

"Does it make me less of a man that I hurt, I have emotions and my WW doesn't? Or at least doesn't show it?"

Hurting is human...part of God's design. How could that ever make you less of a man when God made it part of being human? The DJ that your WW doesn't sure can hurt inside you...HUGE ouch to self on that one. And you still giving yourself permission to read others...define their feelings, thoughts, beliefs or perceptions for them.

"In some ways I feel like I shouldn't still be feeling this,"

There's that should signal...should is full of judgment...how's that working for you? Knowing what you feel is difficult enough...judging your emotions, which are information, is futile and painful.

"like a man should just be above it. But I have to say, I cry over this still."

Trace your pain...what belief is it coming from?

"Rough stuff. I am learning all over again about what and why and the rest of it."

When you lose your focus into WW or anyone else, you will experience great fear, pain and anger.

"I hope to keep learning. Sometimes I feel as though I'm just spinning my wheels, going one day to the next not really changing much."

Another reason to drop your measuring instruments...judging yourself, your progress...DJing self.

"I know God wants to teach me through this horrible event in my life but does anyone ever feel like they learned stuff, or realized new things for a while, and then just went back to being their old self again?"

Yes, yes and YES!! Very human...because epiphanies are not habits. You have to choose to make them habits. With your three things above...just like journaling is made into habit...which makes it into necessity...and each time your focus slips back into others, you lose your goal, don't you? Switch your treasure. Feels old...how we lived...and we truly aren't living that way...we face our poles on this spiral staircase...may feel old, isn't. You're facing your poles with a lot of knew knowledge and beliefs.

"It's like, if I'm the one left so confused and doubtful after the divorce and adultery and all that, then is it because I have so much more to learn than her?"

See where comparison can really bite your own butt? Judgment does that. Has no knowledge value...relevance. You recognize you feel confusion and doubt...have discovered a lot within yourself...it's about you, not her.

"That is kind of a stupid question,"

Ouch...misnomered, too. Not a stupid question...a signal to you to be aware that how pervasive comparison and judgment are within you.

"but the point being, if she can carry on so freely with a decision of that magnitude, maybe she has more strength than I do since I didn't even committ adultery and now I am sitting here wondering what to do next."

Why would continuing in fog take strength? Takes a lot of entitlement, judgment, justification and resentment. Has no respect. Why would you choose to equate that with strength instead of fear?

"You see what I mean? My WW, soon to ex, just moves on like a tornado"

See how this big DJ is affecting your emotions? Giving you signals from that belief...which is a false and toxic belief?

"and I'm left with the wreckage. I don't want the ****** wreckage, I want wisdom and understanding and to be able to assert that in my life. But at the same time, it's as though I'm reacting to what she's been doing."

Because you're focusing on her and DJing all over the place, and causing yourself a ton of pain. Like JL said, this isn't about you--and you're making it about you...judging, comparing, telling self she is PART of you...which ups the level of pain and anger from feeling torn apart.

Get down to your own bones, Cor. Stay there. It's a great place to be. Now you know when your focus on respect drops, this is what you get...turmoil, confusion, pain...directly from DJs and where you choose to put your concentration, allow your thoughts to dwell.

"I shouldn't be reacting to her, I should be moving forward with my life."

A double-should shot. How about "I don't want to be reacting to her. I want to live respectfully and take my focus off her. I will remove my focus. It is fantasy. I don't do fantasy anymore."

"I don't need this confusion or all these questions... God where is justice in all this?"

I believe God's designed perfect justice within humans...what we do to ourselves, we do to others...and what we do to others, we do to ourselves.

You may need the confusion, Cor. How about you don't like feeling confused...feels vulnerable, fearful...downright scary...would that be close?

And confused emotions come from conflicting beliefs...another should signal...so you can evaluate the belief not disown your emotion. Don't suppress the messenger. Use it.

We all retain our wishful child...where we want the world to be different, people or ourselves, to be different than we perceive them to be right now. We basically want a protected and secure life without pain, anger or fear. By wishing it were different, we actually obscure the greatness of God's design...his way to reach, hold, share and love...and our wishing can create a lot of pain, hurt and anger within ourselves, signalling, "This shouldn't be this way" to be a belief...and emotions are for you, about you, aren't they?

What if moving forward was learning to be, not to do, Cor?

"Be still and know that I am God."

Learning we are human beings and not human doings is an incredible journey. You might just be on it.

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LA

LA,

I’m glad you are willing to respond and extend some of your wisdom on these matters. It has helped me gain perspectives I never had before and become aware of some of my tendencies and hidden core beliefs about myself and others. So, once again, I must say thank you.

“And I believe that "die to ourselves" is about our self-created image, not our God created one.”

Anything placed before God is antithetical to our true ability to discover his word and his desire for our lives. When you brought up the idea of our self-image being an idol before God it makes so much sense and yet it is the first thing I am able to look past.

"During prayer, repeat respect as your goal, asking God to aid you in understanding to your core, separate and equal."

Understanding to my core is exactly what I'm after. No surface coverups here, I desire deep change and all that comes with it. But, yes, my desire to measure comes into play then. Old habits die really hard, not even knowing I do it half the time. I risk second guessing myself, always asking how did I come off there? In what way am I communicating to others here? So this is not healthy, and I measure that. Asking... where is my change? When do I get to the next level of maturity, awareness, godliness? Too much for me at this point, but to not achieve is to be in some sort of undefinable place. Well, am I ready now to start looking for another woman, I say to myself? No, not yet, but certainly not too far away either... some of these lessons I can learn apart from another, some I will have to try within the context of a marriage again, knowing it wil not be a test but a great commitment and day-to-day experiment in forgiveness... I hope to get a chance to take on that challenge with a great woman.

"You're choosing to get all you can learn out of this experience."

Yes, absolutely. I don't mean move forward as in drop everything and call it good enough. I realize everyday will be a learning experience for me until the day I die. I also do have legal representation who I will be meeting with this week.

"You were this way as a child, before you knew you had the power to choose."

Big a-ha here. This makes sense. The power of choice is one of our greatest assests. It is what God calls free will. Instead of reacting from fear or feelings of inadequacy or perceptions of need I have the God-given right to choose better. And falling backward into undeveloped thinking patterns is exactly what children do, and what I have done many times before. Doesn't mean I was wrong about what I was arguing, just that I was wrong in how I argued it. I admit to that and have before to WW. She scoffed.

"Cor, you know how to love, how to choose to believe you love and act on it...you haven't done that consciously towards yourself."

This is so true. One of the first things my IC told me was to be kind to myself. I try to do something I have ignored for such a long time and that is to simply... love myself. What a novel idea after all this time!

LA, there is so much good stuff here, forgive me if I can't cover it all but be assured I read every word.

"Leaving selves behind creates a lot of pain; like picking ourselves apart for what we don't like in us, eschewing and disowning parts of ourselves."

I hadn't thought of it this way. Suppression is not what I'm looking for but I feel that I must to be a functioning person in this world. You see? If I didn't suppress parts of my desires I would be a threat to myself and others... I know this is not what you are saying, and this isn't about being some sort of predator but on a more relational level I'm saying that the idea of being brutally honest can seem like one is simply being open and honest but are instead hurtful... so the idea for me to suppress versus being respectful can be difficult to decipher. Does that make sense?

Being able to express myself... so I suppose it depends on how I address those ideas. Like i said before, it is alright to have a strong opinion, it may not be okay to opine strongly. Okay, I see... I don't want my marriage relationship to be the battlefield for every issue. I need to learn to pick and choose what is important and relate humbly and with respect. What values am I willing to give a little on and what values am I absolutely unwilling to compromise on. I see now how many core values my WW and I are different on.

"you'll know YOU have forgiven yourself well and true when her non-forgiveness doesn't bother you."

That will be a good day. I am looking forward to it soon.

"No wonder I wanted to go out through someone else to get back into me...I was a scary place, full of choices I had no idea I was making."

Thanks for sharing this LA, your going through the healing before helps us who come behind heal. The idea of choice again... which means power comes in choosing not in controlling the outcome. Which means I can always make a choice to give instead of take, love my wife instead of withdrawing from her, not feeding into my fear of being abandoned but instead giving my time in knowledge that it is appreciated by my wife more than she will let on all the time. You see, my pain is in that I KNOW I will eventually be left for someone else, so I withdraw and let the prophecy be fulfilled, people like me who never feel like we can be loved do this. It is easier to control. Pushing someone else away allows us to feel and feed into our desire to control because it narrows the options into only one... eventual destruction of the relationship... the whole time also believing that if this other person happens to pass all of these tests of commitment, then they will be worthy of staying and it will PROVE their true love because they have gone through ****** to stay with me. But by the time we've both gone through ******, there is often times nothing left to build on. No love left and then the rebuilding must be done again.

I think now you can see my great fear here, it is that I will subconsciously do this again to the next woman I find. Not doubtedly she will be a loving, caring, kind person of some sort of fine demeanor and looks and we will fall in love and if I allow myself to slip into some sort of state of self-denial, playing on my old fears and feelings of being inadequate I will once again withdraw and punish. That scares the ****** out of me. I do not want to be that man, I do not want to put someone I love through that ever. It is a temptation to destroy when we know we have the power to. And that is not something I want to admit to easily... and I know I'm capable of loving deeply and with all my being because I've done it before. But the vulnerability is something I fear now.

So there you go, lots of fears still.

"Remember...where our thoughts are, there is our treasure."

This is huge. Yes, I need to work on where I allow my thoughts to go because where they go there I am with them. My mind has a tendency to wander a lot, and I'm learning more how to control and straighten it although I still struggle in that place.

"When you think the word "deserve" you are measuring, judging again. No acceptance in that.

Nope. None. But if I don't measure how will I know if I'm living up to my standards?

"Because you're focusing on her and DJing all over the place, and causing yourself a ton of pain."

I know. Sometimes it comes back with a vengeance. Focusing on her comes when I least expect it, but then I know I have the right to choose not to think about her and what she's doing and focus on better things.

"And confused emotions come from conflicting beliefs"

Conflicting beliefs for me would be my holding onto my own wanton desires yet trying to cultivate a spiritual relationship with Christ. Despising myself. Anger about my past choices. Feeling like I screwed up my life 15 years ago.

"Why would continuing in fog take strength? Takes a lot of entitlement, judgment, justification and resentment. Has no respect. Why would you choose to equate that with strength instead of fear?"

Good point. Very good point. My reasoning there was never meant to hold up, but coming out of self-pity and self-loathing. I deserve better from myself. Where does sarcasm and self-depricating humor border on hurting the self?

No she is not strong, she is playing from a distorted view of herself. I have prayed many night that she would come to repentance. I sincerely hope she makes that step. I cannot see her life flourishing with such decision making.

"What if these emotions are coming from your belief if only you had done this or this; had you known and done that or the other thing? Do you have some background what ifs and if onlys going on?"

Nailed it. Shame from missed opportunities, past hurts, past abuses, past encroachments... all of it. I want to let it go but I keep thinking I made a big mistake. We all make them, I know. I know it! I know it already. But how to let go. I'm about half of what I could be right now, and I want to be whole for my next wife, not with some nagging feeling of inadequacy, feelings of guilt, feelings of necessity to perform for her, to push and the then withdraw at the sign of failure for assurance of failure... can anyone understand this? I am not a man with problems, I am a man ready to heal. There is a difference to admitting and burying. A man who buries only succeeds in fooling himself, a man who admits has the opportunity to become better. If I am meant to struggle, so be it, let my wisdom increase while my tribulation continues, but may I never be lonely again as my admittance and grief extends at least some hand of understanding to the next who may not yet recognize what it is they are seeking. But you LA, are on my side, and it shows that yours and mine, this suffering is not for nothing at all.

God Bless,
Corinth

Cor,

Thank you for responding.

"Old habits die really hard, not even knowing I do it half the time."

See? You've nailed the first step...which you've been taking while posting here. Awareness. We cannot know what we don't know...becoming aware is what I made my goal first...so I could know! Make it your first goal...to become aware of all you judge. Not to change, fix, perfect or smooth...just aware...to find all the tendrils.

"I risk second guessing myself, always asking how did I come off there?"

You risk...I risk...and the gain is in the risk. If you second guess yourself...is that self-assessment or does it degrade you? I call it checking myself...because you're right, old habits die hard...helps to change the belief. When you feel yourself go through others' eyes to assess how you came off...catch yourself and say, "I don't want that." Then, check how you came off to yourself, through your own eyes...was that up to your code or not?

"In what way am I communicating to others here? So this is not healthy, and I measure that."

Why is that unhealthy? Now, if you are actually asking, "Am I getting the results I want" that's unhealthy. If you ask, "Was I true to myself? Did I share my stuff or was I reacting to others' stuff? Did I listen and repeat? Did I clarify for ME what I heard? Did I validate my own feelings and thoughts?" That's some healthy attention in my book.

"Asking... where is my change?"

Ouch. Please ask, "How's my awareness" first. Gentle, not demanding...true self has been pushed aside for decades...all the attention went to self-image...so gentle, accepting...asking to know not judge here, 'k?

"When do I get to the next level of maturity, awareness, godliness?"

When we focus on getting to where we have never been, instead of the journey itself, we usually don't get to our goal. Choosing our goal first, and wisely, makes all the difference.

And choosing our belief wisely, too..."I am on my way to more maturity, awareness and godliness. I am becoming more intimate with myself and God." What you tell your brain matters. It unseats the old belief (we have thousands of these) "I am stupid, immature, sin-filled and defective. I'll never make it. God will have to make me that way without me doing it. I mess everything up." Get to know your inner voice(s)...not to fight, but to know...first step. Aware to know...not to change, stop, fix or mutilate, 'k?

"Too much for me at this point, but to not achieve is to be in some sort of undefinable place."

Too much is a signal...that you're making your goal too wide to reach...try reining in your width, narrowing your focus into manageable bites, so you don't feel choked. Very human. Very normal. To not achieve is bad...do you have that belief? To not achieve is to fail? Lots of ouches in that, when your intent is pure...I believe your intent is pure...to know you're whole as the moment you were made from love in God's hands.

"Well, am I ready now to start looking for another woman, I say to myself? No, not yet, but certainly not too far away either..."

Wow...what's the timeline thingie with ready or not? If your focus is inward for now, then you can learn a lot about your true self and false self from where your mind goes...like watching your own thoughts. Not to judge or predict, just to know.

"some of these lessons I can learn apart from another, some I will have to try within the context of a marriage again,"

This is very true. However, until you are prepared fully to relive what you have with someone else...and take a life time to work through all of whatever comes, you're not ready, are you? Don't go into that future...you're here and now married. You are. Stay here for awhile so you teach yourself not to run from pain or boredom--teach yourself your desire to know why others complete you and how in the present is more important than getting there just yet.

"knowing it wil not be a test but a great commitment and day-to-day experiment in forgiveness..."

You would be able to know that for you, not for her.

"I hope to get a chance to take on that challenge with a great woman."

Just a highlight...here is a comparison...a judgment...grading human beings tells self that there are right ones and wrong ones..instead of our own boundaries and standards for ourselves...it reinstills that we, too, can be right or wrong as human beings, instead of doing right or wrong.

I want to add to the adult choice versus reacting from our inner child...because we were children...and we have our own within us still. Now I know where it comes from...I'm reading "Getting the love you want" by Harville Hendrix...which isn't as outright spiritually based as John Bradshaw and Cloud & Townsend...however, I'm inferring a lot of God in his stuff, and the sharing. Anyway, he describes our two brains...our old one (and he biologically tells us where it is located)...which is what other scientists have called reptillian...so I like old, better. It is our survival brain...asks very basic questions...am I safe? Will I die? Will a person nurture or harm us? Really hit with me because of our all or nothing perspective...on or off? Very childlike...so possibly, this is our most rudimentary system under our more aware system...which fear jumps up if someone scares you...honestly feel like you might have died right then...when our new brain, the one which thinks, is aware, chooses, etc., knows we weren't really at the threat of real death...

I'm still exploring all of God's design here...not making a judgment...sure helped me to accept my seemingly deeply automatic reactions...and yes, I startle easily. LOL.

So I wanted to be sure I'm communicating that our childlike reactions are still a choice...as we retrain our brain to know middle ground...not just on or off. Also makes sense, now that I think about it further, why we often feel empowered in being right...which would be safe...and terribly fearful of being wrong, huh?

On/off.

Life isn't on or off. We have experienced living death in betrayal and pain...we have experienced joy of loss...lots of overlaps and increments. Becoming aware of them gets us to that middle part...where our self dwells, I think.

I'm not going to where you believe there are parts of you which do harm if you share them. If you ACT on them, yes. If you share, "I am feeling a lot of anger right now" has no threat of harm. It's information. About you. Radical honesty is about SHARING, not accusing, blaming or attacking. Acting on our stuff brings in the predator or harming ability human's posess...choice remains. To act out or to share. Sharing is healthy, affirming...what Harley means by radical (not brutal) honesty. When we own our own stuff, we do not harm. We share.

Oh, I went there again. I know you have a deep resistance to this...and in time, you may change your perception of what I'm saying. You don't have to do it all now...what we resist the most means the most to us...hits that base fear the hardest...when we get there, we get there. Sometimes, new ideas have to seep in, slowly...over time...experiencing life with a new perception and awareness...which is what you're doing right now.

"I hadn't thought of it this way. Suppression is not what I'm looking for but I feel that I must to be a functioning person in this world. You see? If I didn't suppress parts of my desires I would be a threat to myself and others..."

Again...suppressing your own desires means not knowing you have them...far more dangerous to society than KNOWING your desires and choosing to state (share) and NOT act out on them. No danger in sharing.

"I know this is not what you are saying, and this isn't about being some sort of predator but on a more relational level I'm saying that the idea of being brutally honest can seem like one is simply being open and honest but are instead hurtful..."

I do understand this is your perception...that you have great power to harm if you are truly known for yourself...I get that. I remember that. Could you be picturing sharing your judgments...judging...rather than your thoughts, feelings, beliefs and perceptions?

"so the idea for me to suppress versus being respectful can be difficult to decipher. Does that make sense?"

You are not being respectful (trusting others to own their own reactions to you, their thoughts, feelings, beliefs and perceptions)...you are being protective. Just to be clear. No judgment.

"Being able to express myself... so I suppose it depends on how I address those ideas. Like i said before, it is alright to have a strong opinion,"

There are no strong opinions, I believe. You have convictions (core beliefs) which are about yourself. You have opinions--which are thoughts and perceptions. And you have emotional reactions to your own opinions right now...which is information to you, about you. Strong opinions would be emotional reactive ones...very transitory and signalling you to an inner conflict more than an outer one...again, Owning All Your Villagers Thread.

Shameless self-promotion.

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"it may not be okay to opine strongly."

It would be okay to share your reactions through stating them. "I feel" "I think" "I just realized" Instead of, "You're terrible to believe that" which is judgmental and abusive, correct? "I feel terribly fearful and angry hearing you believe that. I'm going to find out why and let you know."

"Okay, I see... I don't want my marriage relationship to be the battlefield for every issue."

Reminder...90% of marital conflict are not problems to be solved, but selves to be understood. There are few issues in marriage...when our perception is that we're in this together, not completing each other, but complementing our lives.

"I need to learn to pick and choose what is important and relate humbly and with respect. What values am I willing to give a little on and what values am I absolutely unwilling to compromise on. I see now how many core values my WW and I are different on."

What is important? More judgment? True humility is knowing your stuff is about you...and sharing your stuff. Not to get love, respect, admiration or anything else. Sharing to know and be known.

Again, knowing your own core values and holding them up to your adult experience...understanding the emotions you feel when you do as signals...tracing those...to find all the beliefs you have...there is true responsibility for your own stuff.

"Which means I can always make a choice to give instead of take,"

God gave us the Giver and the Taker for a reason. Balance. So always giving is imbalancing, equally unhealthy as always taking. Not receiving doese damage, too. Just a little sharing...

"love my wife instead of withdrawing from her,"

Two sides to the message of withdrawing...it confirms to yourself that your wife hurt you so you must emotionally flee...not really adult experience related, definitely old brain instinct. Your choice to not withdraw remains. How we hold our fear, acknowledge it and do not react from it. Excellent insight. Takes more awareness of what triggers your flight desire...and each time you withdrew, you reinforced your belief that pain was coming in from the outside...

"not feeding into my fear of being abandoned but instead giving my time in knowledge that it is appreciated by my wife more than she will let on all the time."

Confirming to YOURSELF that you will not abandon yourself or others. (Withdrawal IS abandoning others, which tells self, you'll abandon yourself for others.) Giving yourself your own presence when feeling pain and tracing it to what it's signalling...through your perception. Invalidates that you are being harmed...pain coming in from the outside...which really builds your own power base to own what is already yours. And then share what you find with your wife.

Upward spirals begin here. With awareness.

"You see, my pain is in that I KNOW I will eventually be left for someone else, so I withdraw and let the prophecy be fulfilled, people like me who never feel like we can be loved do this."

Absolutely awesome insight...a core belief of abandonment, which you reinforce through abandoning and feeling abandoned. Now, may I caution you in your new awareness to watch what words you use to self? You KNOW isn't true...you have believed. You have perceived. We open to change, not force it. It's retraining not recreating (don't want to keep doing that whole slave to self-image all our lives, do we?) So being open in your language...stating your truth...I have believed I will eventually be abandoned by everyone puts reality into your core. Sometimes this has happened. Often it hasn't. I see where I have abandoned myself." See, getting to your truths without judgment...feeling the sadness, grieving loss, and what we have done to ourselves is not shaming...it is freeing. To know is to know.

"It is easier to control."

This is a false belief. Could it come from our old brain, I wonder? Nothing is easy or difficult to control in ourselves...what is you may experience is easy judgments and difficult ones...forcing yourself to change...the whole process of creating our self-image involved a lot of effort at moulding, shaping, trimming, disowning and losing parts of ourselves.

"Pushing someone else away allows us to feel and feed into our desire to control because it narrows the options into only one..."

Another excellent insight...put it in your first person, please. This is your truth and it's important. You feel protected when you push others away...goes to the belief they are harming you and you are feeling protected by withdrawing (we can't really push others away...just a symbol...God didn't give us that power).

"eventual destruction of the relationship... the whole time also believing that if this other person happens to pass all of these tests of commitment, then they will be worthy of staying and it will PROVE their true love because they have gone through ****** to stay with me."

Oh, yes! Earning love...very deep belief...through trials and tribulations...I really see where that payoff is if they stay. Would give rise to us perceiving conflict where it wasn't...that's how alluring that payoff would truly look...and it's false.

"But by the time we've both gone through ******, there is often times nothing left to build on. No love left and then the rebuilding must be done again."

Oh, I challenge you on this conclusion...because of your many fantastic insights. Yes, Love Busters drain the resulting feelings...not our beliefs. If we need evidence to prove we love, then we will convince ourselves are not loved, change our belief. Same for choosing not to love...proving the other unworthy. The rebuilding would be getting back into reality, soul to soul, human to human, because we'd been living toxically, wouldn't it? Not a chore, but a relief. What do you think?

Falling in love over and over again...and not acting from not feeling loving...is how we love for a lifetime. Conscious choice, acting on our belief, gives us resulting inner feelings of love...separate from response.

Ultimate beauty of perpetual love in God's design.

"I think now you can see my great fear here, it is that I will subconsciously do this again to the next woman I find."

I have no doubt at all that you will unconsciously do this in every relationship you have...unless you become fully conscious and choose not to. You're doing that. Tell yourself, that is exactly what you're doing...valid fear...invalid reality.

"Not doubtedly she will be a loving, caring, kind person of some sort of fine demeanor and looks and we will fall in love"

Uhm, please read this book before you jump into this line of thinking...because it raises your consciousness on who you'll choose past what you're thinking now.

"and if I allow myself to slip into some sort of state of self-denial,"

Please know we choose self-denial...through practicing self-deception. Staying honest prohibits us from choosing denial unconsciously. We are safe from self-deception when we practice radical honesty.

"playing on my old fears and feelings of being inadequate I will once again withdraw and punish."

Yes, not addressing your feelings of being inherently inadequate is the self-fulfilling prophecy.

"That scares the ****** out of me."

What you don't know in yourself, does hurt you. You're knowing more and more every day...your honesty is going to higher and higher levels. You can trust yourself over time and practice so that your fear will not be real and will not be prophetic and will not terrorize you. The more you feel it, hold it, embrace it, see it for the act of self-love it is signalling...and do not act on it. You'll teach yourelf you ARE safe...self is whole, complete, marvelously made...with constant choice. Unless you choose self-destruction, it will not happen.

"I do not want to be that man, I do not want to put someone I love through that ever."

Then you won't. But change your premise, 'k? You don't want to put yourself through that ever. That's really important.

"It is a temptation to destroy when we know we have the power to."

Bah...I don't believe that at all. There is no temptation in destroying from pure power...power knows and needs not to be proven...it's inherent...fear of being powerless destroys. I know that some esteemed minds have come to the other conclusion. Not mine.

"And that is not something I want to admit to easily... and I know I'm capable of loving deeply and with all my being because I've done it before."

Better than before...because loving deeply, with all your being, betrayed you...you didn't love yourself wholly, with total acceptance of true self...so you can act on your love more authentically now that you know the difference. That's change. True change. Wait until you get there.

"But the vulnerability is something I fear now."

Old brain feels constantly vulnerable...great choice when new brain chooses to share those feelings instead of acting on them, eh?

"So there you go, lots of fears still."

Do you accept you fear? That there are reasons you do? Not for protection, but by design? That there are unreasonable overlaps...and culling your fears for validity from your adult experience is your responsibility?

"Nope. None. But if I don't measure how will I know if I'm living up to my standards?"

Ahhh...what is the difference between measuring and being aware of? When you ask yourself, "Did I meet my standard of honesty?" is that a judgment, a meaurement? Sure, if you have little lines and levels...why not begin with the training wheels..."Was I honest? Is that what I really feel right now?" Now, show me the judgment in that...the measuring device. As big of a difference as making your intent not to judge, but to know.

"I know. Sometimes it comes back with a vengeance. Focusing on her comes when I least expect it, but then I know I have the right to choose not to think about her and what she's doing and focus on better things."

Yes, I know this one really well. You are not alone. I found behind my straying focus, that I distracted myself in others (especially DH) from myself. When I felt anxious, I focused outward...because I was feeling anxiety inward. I began to think of my focus like a thing...running away from my emotions to control them...like withdrawing or pursuing...no judgment in that. Great knowledge for me. I could choose to focus inward...to trace the anxiety to know it...find out what belief it was coming from. Ahh, I believe I'm being rejected...icky...oh, wait...by whom? Oh, the thought I just had...I was thinking of something and felt shame from it...in my past...I wasn't present...anxiety is telling me I'm rejecting my self...the self who didn't know then what I know now. Oh, anxiety left.

Habit says run...to others...she's thinking badly of me, comparing, judging me...I'm the cause...I'm causing her to do this..like mixed signals...trying to get to what is within us from the outside. Focus runs. We choose to turn our focus...we have the steering wheel. Retraining means lovingly turning our focus inward each time we realize where our thoughts are, what are feelings are signalling...all God's gift to us for our own health.

Another reason to not self-bash...because then we fear going inward all the more...from proving we are not safe to know...even ourselves.

See the downward spiral in that? The more we self-bash, judge ourselves harshly (punish), the more we feel like distracting, turning our focus outward, away from ourselves, living through others to come at us protected, which says self must be run from, not safe...therefore others aren't safe, and we head back...continually looping...great news...remove any single one of those permissions and you break the loop.

"Conflicting beliefs for me would be my holding onto my own wanton desires yet trying to cultivate a spiritual relationship with Christ. Despising myself. Anger about my past choices. Feeling like I screwed up my life 15 years ago."

You see your earthly self in conflict with your spiritual yearnings...what if they were information about the same thing? God created us in earthly bodies, two brains (an unconscious one and a conscious one), full of signals (emotions), thoughts, wants, needs and desires...spiritual beings...all in one package...for a purpose. His design is not faulty in anyway. Knowing what your wanton desires are, what they represent (EVERYTHING is an emotional need), tracing them to where you perceive loss, that you do not have, and seeing if that's real or a misperception...because God made you complete. He did. If you believe you are incomplete, wanting what you do not have (which is what want is), then you will experience wanton desires...and they are false. No struggle in that, huh?

Signals to self from self. I promise.

God is understanding...live like him. To understand is not to judge. Understanding you're signalling yourself brings you to the center of his own creation...which is true intimacy with God. Takes a lifetime to discovery all of his mind-blowing work...every particulate of his creation...it's stunning. You are stunning. Approach yourself from love and not self-loathing...accept you do not know a lot about your marvelous design...studying his work brings you to the creator...establishes your intent, identifies your true longing, and yes, a most marvelous self-fulfilling prophecy.

See? Two-way streets...self-fulfilling in an upward spiral.

I shudder to read your honesty right now...self-pity and self-loathing. You are loathing self...and self is innocent. What do you feel when you realize you despise the artifice you created in self-image, through ignorance and a child's perspective? What do you feel when you realize you could not possibly have chosen differently then with what you knew then, compared to now? And not even as much as what you will know tomorrow?

Can you not find the seeds of self forgiveness and authentic love of self in this knowledge? This consciousness you are choosing today?

Right now.

All you had then was right now. That was it. And it remains, dear Cor, all you have right now. Eternally.

Did you notice the deserve word in "I deserve better from myself?" Self said OUCH! Self didn't do it..self-image, crafted from judgment, unrelenting measuring and painted with earning love...full of beliefs which negated true self.

Wouldn't that be like trying to open a walnut with a sledgehammer...how's that working for you?

Okay, hurt over...because that hurt I did to myself, too. I remember. Self remembers. Now for the giggle...

"Where does sarcasm and self-depricating humor border on hurting the self?"

Where does it not? Sarcasm is a put down...so is self-deprecation. Now, I've discovered a great way to own through humor...and it is ten times funnier to me and validating than self-deprecation. There's on border on those...they ARE destructive. They are made as a defense from fear. Tears others and self down...not funny. Really, really UNfunny.

"No she is not strong, she is playing from a distorted view of herself. I have prayed many night that she would come to repentance. I sincerely hope she makes that step. I cannot see her life flourishing with such decision making."

You got to a really painful part of yourself...and you jumped over into her. Can you see the payoff? What did you feel when you shifted your focus? It was false relief, Cor. We were on you, in you, deeply honest and revealing. Real sharing. Know your signals.

They are for you.

"Nailed it. Shame from missed opportunities, past hurts, past abuses, past encroachments... all of it. I want to let it go but I keep thinking I made a big mistake."

Okay...we don't let go past hurts, abuses, encroachments...we heal from them through examination, ownership and acceptance. They are part of us. Knowing how valuable and necessary they are to our growth helps with the acceptance, ownership...takes non-judgmental examination...to know, not to judge.

You are choosing to believe you made a big mistake. Choose not to believe that. Choose to know you made a choice...and there is so much to learn within why you chose...(hinting at getting that book as soon as possible, 'k?) and why it remains about you...not others. Healing, healthy stuff, Cor. I promise. Have faith. Choose to believe differently.

"I'm about half of what I could be right now, and I want to be whole for my next wife, not with some nagging feeling of inadequacy, feelings of guilt, feelings of necessity to perform for her, to push and the then withdraw at the sign of failure for assurance of failure... can anyone understand this?"

Oh, yes, I can understand this...thoroughly. I lived it. I remember. First lesson in awareness...are you present when you think this? Is this your reality right now? Are you setting a wide goal? Are you running from something in you? Are you trying to examine something but your automatic judgment from fear is obstructing your vision?

Is the very belief that you are choosing...that you are half right now causing a lot of these thoughts? You ARE whole...there has never been a time, nor will there be, when you are not...Believing you are half will give you the experience of being half...wrong, bad, done to and damaging. It will build your feeling of being inadequate...which is denying God's creation...distorting...it is the very way you got to where you created self-image...and rejecting self.

Expectations are premeditated resentments. We create them for others and ourselves. We feel guilt when we choose to believe we failed others' expectations (which tells self we own others' expectations)...and we feel shame when we fail our own expectations (which, when we make others' stuff ours, really puts in constant signalling that we're failing all the time, doesn't it?). Sorting out which is which is where I started...then examining my own expectations...that I had to be perfect to be loved...solidly good at all times in all ways (which necessitates constant judgment)...and look, Cor...I already was...loved. God made me of love, from and for it. God is love. I did all that from my perceptions, built into beliefs, hardened into judgments from fear.

I came from love. So did you. Let's get back to it, 'k?

Let's choose to come from love, experience our lives in a loving, living God, and see what our signals are then.

I see your fears, Cor. You fear fooling yourself. I was self-deceptive, also. You fear being meant to struggle...not in control of knowing what is struggle and what is resistance...I remember. You fear tribulation, which is powerless, full of suffering...because you have experienced just that...and you fear it coming again...not knowing you were never powerless or had to suffer...always your choice, your power...inherent...inalienable by God's design.

Getting there IS the journey...to knowing what we always have been and will be, with balanced perceptions, kind beliefs, and true acceptance and love of self. We will honor ourselves, thereby honoring others, when we know we ARE honorable. Honorably made. Not earned. Not punished to get.

Then we are the delight of God...as he intended. When we are delighted by him and his glorious design.

You nailed it, Cor. I've chosen to be on the side of humans and God...just to be. Human being. Which IS your side. As all of us are...separate and equal, marvelously made.

And I know more of who I am because you shared who you are.

LA

Hi Cor and LA!

This is the most amazing thread I've ever read. I wish I knew how to rate a thread w/ stars b/c I would give it five stars!

That last post of yours, LA, made me cry...cry b/c of the beauty of truth in it! WOW!

Thankyou both so much for your honesty and openness on it. It was just amazing. I hesitated to even intrude upon the two of you here...

I wish I could articulate all that I got from it, but I'm too overwhelmed right now. Perhaps after I digest all of this for a bit.

You both are awesome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh