Unless you're having the same dream? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Was it OT or NT? Can you remember any key words you're sure of? It might be Google-able, or someone could search a complete Bible computer program. If it were me, I'd try that before I hunted for this text with nothing for tools but two eyes, ten fingers, a bunch pages, and one sense of grim determination. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I tried the internet......any of the key words sends you to the same scriptures that everyone probably knows. Like I said....there are many scriptures that you never see appear anywhere, but they are in the bible. I believe I have the area where I read this book marked......I usually start at the beginning of a book in the bible and read 1-3 chapters at night (let it marinate in my brain a bit). We will see, If I cant find it........maybe Im losing my mind, or Im just unable to locate it.

Have a great weekend!!! God Bless.

Techie,

I am on my way to work...... again but needed to drop you this line:

I never said there had to be forgiveness I said forgiveness comes in 2 stages. The right to exercise the forgiveness belongs to those parties....the faithful spouse and God.

They can either choose to forgive or not. The WS or even Xws can not demand the right to be forgiven.

When God bound man and woman as 1 in the M arrangement and for Paul to say that each belonged to the other....that is where God makes this allowance. Think about it again. As one family, anyone who brings a 3rd party into the M breaks God's rules. It is a sin to commit adultery. A sin against the faithful spouse and against God's arrangement. A very disprespectful act with long term consquences.

L.

On a post on a messageboard? You have exacting standards!
The Bible is available for searching online, if you are interested.

But I think you are confusing what it says in the Bible with what was state law in some cases.
Regards,
rs0522

Ok....you will have to forgive me.....I looked and looked and looked and looked and could NOT find that passage. My apologies. My wife said I should have hightlighted it....Oh well. She said she remembers me reading those exact words to her that I stated......sorry yall. *hangs head*

That's ok, whenever you find it again, put it on here. I'm curious, too, as I have never read it either. (Not that I consider myself an exhaustive reference. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

StartinOver

Perhaps when you read the scripture, the Holy Spirit revealed to you and your wife at the same time that the verse meant that it is time for you both to forgive.

I have never came across that verse in the Bible. But I do know in my state, you cannot use adultery for grounds for d, if you have sexual intercourse with the WS after your knowledge of the adultery---because the law (man's law) considers it that you have forgiven your spouse.

I disagree but that is what is on the law books in this state.

I can't remember who wrote the statement below but I would like to comment.


My best interpretation of the Bible is that this is contrary to many other scriptures. We must forgive, we are called to forgive as God forgave us. It is quite a bit harder for us to actually accomplish complete forgiveness, but we must 1st make the choice to forgive. Once we have made that choice, it is a process that takes time.

My best interpretation of the Bible is that scripture tells us in the case of adultery, we still must work toward forgiveness, but we are not obligated to remain in the marriage. Being that the pain caused by betrayal is so deep and cuts to the core, God allows us to d, because of the hardeness of our hearts. God knows we are not God and in the case of adultery sometimes we are not capable of complete forgiveness of our spouse and being able to remain in the marriage.

Now I would like some discussion on this scripture because I have thought about it a lot. And I think it is in Matthew. Basically it is when Jesus says that from the beginning God did not plan for divorce, but due to the hardness or our hearts, he allows it.

I wonder if this scripture means that it is better for us to depart in peace and avoid a hardened heart that is more likely if we stay when unable to grant complete forgiveness.

or

Does it mean that because our hearts are hardened already---by the betrayal--unability to remain in the m, etc, that we are allowed to divorce.

It is just for a discussion point, because my personal conviction is that if and when I am to d my h, it will be out of love and it will be because to stay and allow any more destructive behavior would harm him more than me leaving and I have a personal conviction that if I am to d, God will give me a peace about it and I will know. Right now, he has shown some repentance, and I have made a the choice to forgive him and work toward total forgiveness, whether we remain married or not.

The other scripture that I thought was very interesting to me, is in 1 or 2 Corinthians, that if my lost h, depart I am no longer under bondage.....ie if he leaves me he has in a sense d me in his heart, just not legally, and I would no longer be obligated as his w to fulfill his needs if he leaves me. I am not saying this is the interpretation for everyone I just know that through counseling, this scripture was pointed out to me at a time my h was thinking of leaving ---to give me time to himself, he said----and I have always had this unexplainable feeling that if he would physically leave me, it would be the end, and I would be unable to reconcile---this was brought up because I wanted the Chrisitan perspective on "theraputic seperations", because I knew even if he went to stay with his parents (leaving me) I would still want to and would be his wife, but I felt at the same time something would feel wrong about that.

Anyway, he never left and things are different now.

What is everyone's take on the hardening of the heart because of adultery? Do you think it is more likely if a spouse remains or it is why God allows us to leave?

I know I prayed daily for months after d-day, whatever happens Lord please dont let me get a hardened heart.

God Bless You All
Ann

WonderfullyBlessed - "Hardening of the heart" is probably not what you may be thinking. It is focused more on selfishness, than on deep hurt as a result of adultery.

Prior to Christ's "correction" of the Pharisees who were trying to "trap him," the Law of Moses allowed a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all, on the grounds that she "displeased him."

But adultery in a marriage is very serious. Adultery, of all sorts, is very offensive to God, but in the specific case of marital adultery, the "penalty" of death was removed and the marriage NOT ended by the death of the adulterer.

The "one flesh" union of husband and wife in a marriage is in some ways reflective of the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, ONE God comprised of three persons.

It is also relective of Christ as the bridegroom and the church of believers as His bride.

So exactly WHAT the "mystery" of "one flesh" in marriage is we don't really know because it is one the things that God has not chosen to reveal fully. But we know that it IS true and that God intended it that way since He created Eve not only as Adam's helpmeet, but from part of Adam, not entirely separate from him.

So, with the physical death penalty no longer the "consequence" of adultery, thus ending the marriage and "setting the faithful spouse free from the covenant promises of marriage," Jesus made it clear that according to God, the faithful spouse could consider the marriage "dead" spiritually, the "one flesh union" having been "killed," and the faithful spouse could then end what was supposed to have been a lifetime commitment, vow, and covenant.

No longer could anyone divorce for "no fault" or "nebulous displeasure." Now, for a marriage of believers, ONLY marital unfaithfulness was allowed AND recognized by God as legitimate grounds for divorce.

So, to address your second question, what is hard to do is FORGIVENESS as God forgives us. We are not God, and God knows how deeply and profoundly hurtful adultery is. God gave us our emotions and He KNOWS how hard it is to truly forgive, not just "say" "I forgive you."

What is entailed in forgiving a repentant sinner is that the forgiver is making a "threefold promise" that is inherent in forgiving "as God has forgiven us."

Furthermore, while we are commanded to forgive, we are NOT commanded to remain married. The "choice" is granted by God to the faithful spouse, because of the gravity of the sin and our "humanness."

God bless.

Time to Walk
Douglas Wilson

"An important part of our Christian responsibility is the prevention of divorce. God hates divorce, and so should His servants. Divorce divides what God has united. As an act of rebellion on someone's part, it has cascading destructive consequences—and the children are usually at the bottom of the avalanche.

But there are times when divorce is not only lawful, but proper and even obligatory. In a day when divorce is commonly sought as a solution of first resort, Christians sometimes shy away from this. But it is important to affirm this principle, and teach it, for a number of reasons. In any setting where divorce is virtually impossible, all the cards have been given to those who are hard-hearted. Jesus said that divorce was given through Moses precisely because of hardness of heart. In other words, the wisdom of God determined that divorce was an appropriate answer to that kind of hard-heartedness. It is never a positive good, but it is sometimes the only appropriate response to that which is evil.

But there are churches where divorce is entirely excluded. Unfortunately, they are usually not so successful in banning hard hearts. There are other churches where divorce is virtually excluded. Again, hard-heartedness is not virtually eliminated in any kind of parity. What this means is that the hard-hearted one is given a free hostage, and he can then do whatever he wants. Because of the stand taken by the church, the one in the marriage who winds up getting hammered is the one who actually cares what God's Word says. Not only so, but he or she is hammered twice—once by the sinning spouse, and secondly by the sinning church. Until we recover what it means to think covenantally (because covenants have stipulations and conditions), we will continue to struggle with this.

Sin specializes in walking the line, usually just a little bit on the wrong side of it, wherever that line has been drawn. This tendency can be illustrated with minor and endearing infractions. Just last night I was watching my one-year-old grandson being told not to touch a vase of flowers. So he touched the flowers with his head. "Nobody said not to use the head. You meant not to touch it with my hands. Didn't you?" Of course, he did not say this—he can't talk. But that is what he was doing. But the same pattern is not nearly so endearing when it grows up; it can be employed by those who are interested in pursuing their abominations. The sinful mind is inherently a legalistic mind and loves detailed arcana.

Because of this, those who have a wooden view of the scriptural requirements of divorce don't know how to handle the creativity of sinful weirdness. The hard-hearted one can make sure that he gets all his sinning in without giving his spouse a lawful out. What counsel do you give a woman if the husband gets breast implants and wears dresses around the house? And what do you say if he demands to be shown a verse? Okay, Deuteronomy 22:5, but where does it say in that verse specifically that this is grounds for divorce? Of course, there is no specific verse to that effect.

But Jesus allowed divorce for porneias. The word is not the specific word for adultery, and it is a very broad term referring to sexual uncleanness. It is broad in just the way that legalistic sinners hate. Whenever someone is caught in sin, their first reaction is to grab for the rulebook in order to challenge the point. "It wasn't adultery because it was oral sex. It wasn't adultery because I didn't really love her. It wasn't adultery because a twenty-year collection of child porn magazines isn't adultery. It wasn't adultery because I was just fondling our daughter. Fondling is not adultery."

But whether or not it was adultery, all the above have to be considered as porneias—sexual uncleanness. And Jesus says that whoever divorces, "except for porneias"is guilty. Now if you have an example of such porneias, but it is followed by true and genuine repentance, down to the ground, then there is the possibility of reconciliation. I don't believe that marital reconciliation can be demanded (either by the guilty party, or by the church), but it should be sought. And when a biblical reconciliation can be brought about, that is what we should strive for.

At the same time, this pursuit of reconciliation should not be done in such a way as to place any unnecessary burdens on the victim. The Bible teaches that a man reaps what he sows, but often Christian counsel tries to make the innocent party share in the harvest. "For better for worse" in the wedding vows does not refer to the "worse" of covenant-breaking. It refers to sickness, health, riches, poverty, and so on—all the things bestowed by a wise Providence on married couples across the spectrum. It does not refer to rejection of the basic commitment made in the covenant. Marriages are covenants, and covenants can be broken.

So suppose there has been a clear-cut example of porneias. If repentance follows, forgiveness must be extended, but this is not the same thing as saying that marital reconciliation must be extended. The qualifications for personal fellowship and holding office (in this case, of husband or wife) are different. But let us further say that instead of repentance following, we instead find explaining, excusing, blame-shifting, logic-chopping, waffling, noodling, or backfilling. It is time to walk."

http://www.credenda.org/issues/15-3husbandry.php?type=print

Thanks, I never thought about it this way. It is obvious that my h conscious has been seared and his heart hardened....I dont see how it could not have been with almost 17 years of deceit.