Err.. last I read, "right now, as it stands", he has "threatened" to never see her again. I fail to see how that is a safety issue for either her or her daughter.

If he was threatening harm to either of them, or worse yet, actually attempting further harm to them, then I would wholeheartedly agree that divorce+restraining order would be in order.

I equate your description of "watching", as my description of "looking". and I believe I said that I did not think that "looking for someone else" would be appropriate, in my opinion.

What you are saying is, "it's time to start looking, and she needs to divorce her H to do that with a clean concience".
I would agree that if "looking for someone else" is her plan, then that is the right way to go.

What he "says" and what he "does" are commonly NOT the same thing. His actions don't ususally match his words. So yes, I still believe her emotional and physical safety is at risk.




Actually, I don't believe I ever agreed that it was time to start looking, watching, searching, hunting or anything AT ALL. I think she needs to take some time alone with her child and allow herself to heal enough. Then maybe later, think about a relationship, when she's at a healthier stage and has a clear enough mind to find the "right" person instead of just settling for a "rebound", to fill a void.

Thank you all for your posts and concern.

I need to clarify that my WH has not been in a 2.5 year A. We have been separated x 2.5 years and he has had at least 3 As and one inappropriate R w/his XW during that time.

Currently, he tells me that he is not having a physical R with the OW but, he is in contact with her several times a week; same w/XW. Not sure about the other two.

He met all 4 women through our company; this includes resuming R w/XW #2.

He did come back to town early this morning. He is now saying that he cannot live the life I want him to live; no sex w/me and not seeing anyone else so I need to move forward w/the D papers. He's like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hide. Yesterday, he can't bear the thought of living w/o me to the extent that he is willing to commit suicide. Today, he wants me to file so he can legitimately find another sex partner.

Techie,
I appreciate your strong commitment to M. I don't understand the advice to just stay separated, dark but married indefinitely. No, I'm not going to run out and find another man the second the decree is final. I've got a lot of healing to do w/all the hurt, pain, anger, humilitation that I feel from all this. But, I also must protect myself emotionally and financially. If I stay M to him long enough, at some point he will be entitled to part of my retirement. And, if God does have plans to bring someone else into my life, He will not do that as long as I am married.

The verbal abuse slowly intensified. I believe the same is happening w/the physical abuse. I don't know what the catalyst will be that will make him seek help.

I don't want to see him hurt. I love him. In an earlier post someone said I love the man that courted me and that is true. He was an unbelievable gentleman and nice, kind, thoughtful, romantic, funny man. The man I now see is truly an alien or was I blinded early on? Who knows.

Anyway, one day at a time.

(((L2S))) One day at a time, indeed. You already appear to know what you need to do, and how you need to do it. You've come a LONG way! And I'm very proud of you!

Now might be the time to have him sign those papers, while he's currently in favor of it. I'd catch him during one of those moments, so when he changes his mind again, it'll already be done.

Just a thought.

Thinking of you, Sugar, and sending you good and positive thoughts!

To explain the threats of suicide requires a long reply. The short version:

1. The threat succeeds in controlling you.
2. It keeps you involved in his life. Regardless of the fact that the involvement is negative, you are involved.
3. You remain connected to him. Regardless of the fact that the connection is negative, you are connected.
4. You remain attentive to his needs. During the time that he is threatening suicide, you are 100% attentive to him, and only him.
5. He is very needy and afraid of losing you, of change, of losing the other woman, of losing respect, of losing friends, and of losing so much more. Most of which, he knows he will lose anyway - but the threats keep things in a state where these things are "hovering" for now. The loss is at least delayed, or at least he can temporarily deny that the loss is impending. He can at least hang on to the status quo for a little while longer.
6. Desperation. He is emotionally panicked. The desperation he feels in having to make a choice between you, OW, a totally different life, what he really wants, what he thinks he wants, what he knows he ought to do, what he thinks he ought to do, what other people are telling him to do, and all of the rest.....well, he is now desperate and very foggy. He is up against a divorce, another woman who is pressuring him, and the very real life guilt and shame of what he has done, along with the host of other crap that is raining down on his head that HE HIMSELF has wrought. And now the panic has set in because deadlines are looming and choices must be made. So the ultimate threat of suicide is used because it is the nuclear bomb of all - everyone and everything has to stop and wait.
7. It is a LOUD CRY FOR HELP. HE WANTS YOU TO CALL FOR HELP, AND YOU HAVEN'T YET. He needs someone else to call, because he cannot call himself. Call for him, he can't bring himself to do it.

I suspect he needs an adult "time out".

But he lacks the emotional maturity to admit that he needs therapy or counseling. And so, instead, he threatens suicide. THE BAD NEWS IS THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL WHEN THEY CROSS THE LINE INTO THE ZONE WHERE THEY REALLY CANNOT COME BACK.



I stand by my original advice. I have been right where you are with my brother.

Regardless of how his family feels about him, and regardless of how dysfunctional they are, CALL THEM. If he does something stupid, it might make all the difference for them later. Trust me. Make the call today. I know from experience, he will thank the person who calls for help for him, once he gets into therapy. He may be angry at first, but once he goes to the therapist, he will know it was the right thing.


Call the police as well. It could make the difference in saving his life.

It is much better to embarrass him and make him mad at you, and have him alive, than to ignore him and find that you should have listened ---- and then later to be choosing the dress for his funeral.

Please make the calls.


SB

Wed night I called his best friend. I don't know what/how much WH has told him. He got angry when I suggested that my H lied to me about selling the bike. But, when he took it to his house a week ago it never moved from there. My WH told me he had sold it to friend's friend and that the financing fell through.

Apparently friend told my WH that I called him and now H says that if he leaves again he won't tell me. I accused him of playing a cruel game by telling me the cycle was sold when it wasn't and that I was scared and that's why I called friend. But, then again, he has lied so elaborately for so long that I can't believe this either.

Anyway, now telling me to get papers changed and he will sign. I really don't know who to turn to for help. The best friend is a good guy, very smart man. Not sure how to get him to believe that WH needs help. His family could not care less. They would be of no help at all.

Being "alone with your child", doesnt require filing for divorce.

well, technically, that's not "the life you would want him to live", technically, you would want him to not see anyone else, and get his head together, then maybe sometime down the road if he came clean, you could be intimate as husband and wife again.


In other words, even through all the bad things HE has done, HE still does not want to be burdened with the responsability to God of ending the marriage.
Think about that. He still feels guilty about what he is doing.

I see three scenarios, and my interpretation of them:

1. If you file, he then will feel jusfied in everything that he has done

2. If you do NOT file, his guilt increases if he keeps doing wrong, and keeps piling up. perhaps some day enough for him to do something positive about it. To look for a way to once more have "righteous" sex again.

3. if he files himself.... then it is truely over. THAT, to me, would be God's sign to you to move on.

NOPE!

See a lawyer in your state to confirm, but other people have written that in their situation, being separated (as far as living arrangements go; not even legal separation is required) stops the clock on that. I think it is considered "de facto separation"

well.. you can try to convince others, to then try to convince hiim to get help... or you could do my suggestion.
or both.

either way gives him "motivation" to actually go and get help for himself.
As someone else said, he seems to lack the emotional maturity to make the decision to get help for himself. Apparently, he needs a "push" to do it.

If you do the plan B thing, and designate someone else as your contact, and then change all your phone numbers, email, etc. ; then you both give him a motivation to get help, AND protect yourself from further verbal/emotional abuse.

I dont know if this is definately "the right thing" for you to do in your situation. It's just a thought.
You should probably get some professional help yourself to work through this, if you arent already <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No, not if you choose to remain married an abuser.

When I said "alone with her child", I meant without a man in her life. And being married, (living together or not), would keep the door open too many abusive things that L2S is trying to get away from.

He does that anyway. There is always a justification in his eyes, for his actions, with or without L2S's filing.


Whether or not he does anything positive for himself is up to HIM. That burden should not be put on L2S as a basis of whether or not to file. She should not stay due to his "guilt".


L2S has already had plenty of "signs" to let her know what she should do. She has biblical grounds for divorce. He committed adultry, along with physical/emotional abuse. ABUSE. (something you don't seem to be acknowledging, Techie) Whether or not "he" files should be irrevelant. She does not need the validation of her H of whatever she decides to do in the eyes of God.

This is pretty serious, Techie. The man is abusive and he will NEVER file. Simply because he NEEDS someone to bully and control. He KNOWS that there are a lot of women out there that wouldn't put up with him. So he doesn't want to let go of what he "thinks" he owns.

See, Techie, if this were only about infidelity, I would agree with most of the advice you have given L2S. But once the line of abuse has been crossed, I firmly believe that ALL bets should be off. Some things will not ever change, and nobody should wait around to find out if it ever will when it comes to abuse.

Also, I worry about L2S's daughter, and what she could learn from this. We would never wish for her to believe that this type of behavior EVER acceptable under ANY circumstances.

L2S deserves better and so much more.

I'll be the first to admit I dont know much about abusive people. what you say MAY be true. however...

This statement of yours, is provably not true. If it WERE true, then he would not have asked L2S to file. Just the opposite; i would think he would seek to simultaneously maintain the levarage of being married to her, while also continuing all his selfish, hurtful actions.
Perhaps you are bringing other peoples' experiences onto L2S's experience, when they do not fully map to each other.

"always", "never", and "not ever", are dangerous things.
It's highly unlikely, I would agree. but in God, all things are possible.
Who would think a murderer and persecutor, could become the major force of evangelisation in the early church?

I think that it is reasonable and sane to have some kind of limit, on how long to wait, after telling him "this is it; shape up or get out of my life".

The question of just how long to wait, will be between L2S and God.
I think that as long as she and her daughter are protected from him during that time, that there is no need to push things to divorce. in plan B, the "divorce card" is usually only neccessary to get them out of the house. but he's already out.

YES, I know it's already been 2.5 years. However, it wasnt 2.5 years of "plan B".

The only reason he tells her to file is because he is game playing with her emotions and trying to intimidate her. It's been going on for a while now. (calling her bluff, so to speak).

And I do believe he needs someone to bully and control, because he has been doing this for years with L2S. I'm not speaking of other people's experiences. I'm speaking of L2S's, because I've been following her story for quite some time, now.

And yes, I agree that all things are possible in God. And I think it would be wonderful if some changes were made with her H. But NOT at the expense of L2S and her daughter. I believe she should pray from a distance.

As far as giving him a time limit of shaping up, L2S has given him chance after chance and time after time to do this. He has chosen not to.

Again, I'll say that typically, I would agree with the Plan B method, under any other circumstance, other than abuse. Especially physical abuse. This is more than just infidelity that L2S is dealing with. As far as I'm concerned, once violence has taken place, there would be no negotiations. And I know I'm speaking for myself on that issue. But I'm also here to support L2S and to help her to do what is best for her and her daughter. Violence should NEVER be acceptable. And frankly, for me, I would have been gone after the threat of being killed while asleep.

This is serious stuff, Techie. And that's all I'm concerned with. The "marriage" part of it all should be secondary to personal safety. And yes, I know that they are not "physically" together. But with abuse, there is ALWAYS a chance of it being repeated. And it's too high of a risk to go back and find out even ONE time. Abuse is one of the toughest cycles to break, and it shouldn't be taken as lightly as any other issue.

It's one thing to hang on to hope, as long as you are hoping for the right things and being realistic about it. And as an outsider looking in, this isn't just a relationship of a broken marriage due to the typical things in life. It's a life or death situation.

If what you say is true, Techie, about not knowing much about abusive people, then I would highly suggest researching it and getting educated on the subject. It's not anything that should be taken less then serious. It can't be changed or treated the same as infidelity or most other issues. It's a HUGE factor that must be taken into consideration above all else.

JMO

i would still say "it depends".

I think some people act some ways, because they think it is acceptible. If they change their internal beliefs on it, however, then they can change their behaviour.

The question in my mind would be whether he was physically abusive because he is somehow out of control... or whether he was that way, becuase he thought he was entitled to be that way.
(well maybe he was both "out of control" and "self-entitled". tough call.)

but people *can* learn to control rage/anger response.
it's possible.
it's just not neccessarily probable.

Well, maybe he can change, but just won't. Or maybe he just can't change without help. Or maybe it goes so deep, that it's built in, with or without a cause or reason.

My point is that no matter how, what, when, or where it started, it is not acceptable and is still a very high risk behavior for another to have to live with.

People don't change unless they want to. Life is about choices. We can not change the choices or actions of another, only our own. We are only responsible for ourselves and our children.

Whether or not he chooses to change is on him. HE owns that, not L2S. She's only been living with the repercussions of his choices.

I'm only trying to help her to realize that she has choices of her own. And that his behavior is unacceptabe under ANY circumstances.

If "he" changes, then great. That will be good. But in the meantime, L2S needs to take time to think about what she wants to live with for the rest of her life, and the risks that go along with abuse and violence. She has a daughter to consider in all of this. And I think she has come a LONG way to get where she is today. She is not responsible for him or his possible changes. But she IS responsible for herself and her daughter. And THAT is where the focus should be.

L2S has become stronger during this process and I'm so very proud of her and her progress. She has all of my support and thoughts.

(((L2S)))

Techie - I'd really like you to answer the questions I posed for you here. I do not in any way understand how you can take the tact you are taking here with this woman. I am just as pro marriage as you but I am not pro- THIS marriage unless that is what the OP WANTS. Why are you berating her about this. SHe has suffered enough when she says so.

What papers? D paperwork? U ready for it? If not, don't do his dirty work for him. U sign when u r ready. Otherwise, tell the WS go do it himself. You may find him trying to make you mad so you will do it for him. Know this scheme and expose it. Your best defense is to expose him at every turn. He will whine, then tell him to zip up his pants and take his thumb out of his mouth.

The WS will be mad no matter what you do, so do what you need t/d. No more and no less.

Maybe the friend feels caught in the middle. Give the friend time to see the WS for what he is. Remember this is a shocking thing to be manipulated. The WS will try to manipulate anyone who he can get. Let the friend know that the WS is NOT the man you married but a strange person who likes to hurt and manipulate others. Then let the friend know that you hope the friend is smart enough NOT t/b manipulated by a WS. If the friend balks, walk away. You did your best.

L.

Thanks to all of you for your continued support.

He called this morning (I'm out of town for weekend) to say he would like to see me this afternoon when I get back into town. Said we need to talk about finalizing the D.

He said it is not what he wants but, b/c I won't have a physical R w/him, he cannot continue to live like I want him to live; interpretation - no sex. Said that regardless what I think, has not been w/anyone in months. We've not been together since late March. I truly don't believe him. Without doing any kind of needs list, I know this to be his biggest.

He assures me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> that he loves me and doesn't want a D but can't continue in this way. He has said absolutely nothing about getting help for his anger, abuse or infidelity issues. He said that he knew that he had embarrassed me in front of my family and his and that he knows that a reconciliation would be hard based on that alone.

I can't see reconciling for many reasons:
1) My family wants nothing to do w/him b/c of all that he has done through the years that they know about.
2) My daughter almost hates him for what she knows he has done to me (some of it she witnessed) and for the way he is constantly picking on her to do certain things. Granted,those things are right (pick up after herself, clean kitchen when she cooks, etc) but, that is the majority of his interaction w/her.
3) The # of infidelities during our marriage and the continued lies about some of them.
4) The embarrassment factor were I to go back.
5) And this is the most crucial......... His lack of getting help. No self help books, no counseling (beyond the sage advice of the OW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />) and the continued verbal and escalating physical abuse when things aren't going his way or he things I've lied about something.

(The reason he slapped me last week was b/c he wanted to go to my job site and look at my work email. I have no problem w/that b/c I am not in contact w/anyone that I shouldn't be - have no OM in my life. As we were driving there, him following me, I remembered that a family member who works at same company had emailed me about something regarding me and my H, so I called her to have her go into my account and delete the two messages. He tried to call me but, when I didn't answer b/c I was on phone w/her, he had me pull over and wanted to see my phone. I had deleted some of the calls made if he did look but, b/c I wouldn't show him my phone he got mad. Told me I had called someone to have them delete mail (he would have made an awesome prosecuting attorney or police detective). I denied which was wrong but, if I had told him the truth he would have been angrier and not only at me but at other family member as well. So, I lied to protect her and myself. Anyway, he was trying to reach into the car and I told him I had to go. He kept on so I slowly started to drive away. My window was half way down and that's when he slapped me).

I really hate the person I've become with lying about stuff to avoid a fight. I don't want to live like that and hate that I've become such a lier. I can excuse it by saying it keeps from escalating the situation but, it's still wrong and I dont' want to live that way.

So, I don't really feel that I have a choice. And, I have been told that in my state a 10 year M is kind of the cut off where after 10 a spouse is eligible for part of retirement. I've worked too hard to hand part of it off to someone who has treated me so poorly.

In my head I know D to be the right thing. In my heart I have doubt. I think the biggest part is the thought that I may be alone forever - forever the 5th wheel. But, I guess better a 5th wheel than what I have now. And, there's been such damage done w/ my family and his kids. I'm really close to my family; their my backbone and there I get unconditional love. They been w/me through thick and thin. I don't know if there's a way to return to a better R w/all involved. I can't give up my family. I don't like his kids and they ignore my D.

Thanks and hugs to all.

Orchid,
You said:


I would be afraid to talk to his friend about the things he has done and is continuing to do to manipulate me. I really got the impression from talking to him that he doesn't want to get involved. He cares for my H but doesn't want the details of what has happened. He doesn't want him to commit suicide but, doesn't want to hear anything I have to say that would lead him to think my H needs help.

Friend told me that he would tell H about the call if H mentioned anything that would open the door to needing to tell; wouldn't lie. He did tell my H that I called him. A family member of mine said that perhaps the reason he is such a staunch friend is b/c he is on the outskirts of my H's life; not daily, intimate involvement so he has never been exposed to the "other" side of my H. If he was, he might not be such a devoted friend.

So, the friend isn't an ally in trying to get help for H.

Went by house when I got back from trip. He wasn't there. I called his cell; no answer. Left VM. He called be back when I was about 5 minutes from home and said that we had already decided that there wasn't a need to talk b/c I've decided there's no way to make it work. He loves me but b/c I can't get past what has happened we need to move on.

We got into the usual discussion of everything that he and I have done wrong to each other. I told him that he has not gotten help for any of the issues that keep us from reconciling. Those are his anger, his physical displays of anger, his continued talking to OW and XW. He then tells me that I've done nothing to change: I am still lying to him and still going to church where OM is. So, it's a continual circling.

He knows how I feel about his continued contact with all his ex girlfriends and female friends, while he is always making nasty comments to me about a guy I dated and cared for deeply when I was in my mid twenties about 22 years ago. He is very nasty when we see a car like what that guy drove or if his name is mentioned. But, I have to put up with a continual stream of his ex's. The most recent is him telling me that an exfriend whom he briefly had an intimate R with called him to tell him that she was going through a D and that she had just been diagnosed with cancer. Then he proceeds to tell me that they were living in the same neighborhood when I started seeing him and that their R was in the same year as when I started dating him. So, that tells me that he was with a girl in a year long R that ended badly, then he was with this woman, then his XW w/whom he has resumed a friendship/relationship and me all in the span of about 9 months !!!!!!!!!!!!! but, he calls me a sl*t and wh*re <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Here's another twist to this that might make sense to someone. My H had a bad R w/his family, especially his mother. He left home when he was 15. His first M was at 19 to a girl who was 21. His second M was to a woman 13 years older (he was 27 and she was 40). I'm #3 and I'm 6 years older. The woman I mentioned above who is Ding and has cancer is about 15 years older. The OW that he has been having an A with is about 12 years older. He is 42.

There is no way to repair all this mess, is there?

I never disputed that.



I've already stated that; when the status of being married to your spouse, threatens you or your children.

ie: when they use the fact that they are married, to get access to 'your' resources/funds/whatnot, or are destroying your credit rating, or you need to be divorced from them to have a restraining order put in place.


For lesser issues than that, assuming that there already exists biblical grounds for divorce:
it depends on how much a person can take. its kind of like asking, "how long should a person do plan A?"
It depends on the person's individual fortitude, and the situation they are in with their spouse.

as soe might know, Steve H's attitude seems to usually be, "for as long as the person can stand doing plan A, keep doing it"