First off.. I'm really glad you had a good weekend :-)



That is certainly VERY true. Especially since you have already been divorced once.

I'll attempt to say this gently; if it comes out another way, please understand my positive intent:

You have been married twice now. Both times, you made a "poor" choice. Do you believe you are somehow capable of making a better choice "next time"?
Is the better example to show your daughter, that of "keep trying to pick a better man the next time, and the next time", or "stop running, and focus on yourself"?

If you divorce for any reason other than you *have* to to protect yourself, because there is *no other way*... then I think you will end up looking for another man, basically because you will be free to do so at that point. [and right now, you do have other ways to protect yourself.]

Remaining married, puts a boundary around yourself, from making another bad choice again. Making another bad choice in that area, would be about the worst example to your daughter, i think.


you are "enabling" your own worry, instead of doing something practical and simple about it. FIX the problem. stop avoiding it.

if you're worried about [checking the bill on?] the cell phone, cancel the account, so you no longer have access to it. let him get his own phone. quit worrying about it/him.
If you're going to divorce him, but keep on worrying about him... you may as well not bother getting divorced.

If you're worried about getting strange calls... change your phone number!
These are basic, basic "plan B" type strategies, that will fix your worries.


Ermm.. sounds like you're getting involved in your own "fog-speak". It sounds like you are justifying in advance to yourself future actions, even though you have "no intention" of doing them right now. (except somewhere inside you, that's exactly what a part of you wants, and is looking for via divorce. Otherwise, you wouldnt have brought that up. Think about it very carefully)

Techie, I think L2S is beyond Plan B.

Also, you are painting a completely different picture of her motives for divorce. She is not divorcing for the sake of freedom and to find someone new. She is removing herself from an ABUSIVE relationship!

Again, please RESEARCH abuse!! Research the "cycle" of abuse. Then educate yourself on her odds of recovering herself and the marriage if she stayed. And please STOP trying to make her feel guilty for her decision! Her's and her daughter's SAFETY is her motive! Emotionally, verbally and PHYSICALLY!! This is NOT ABOUT "FINDING SOMEONE ELSE"! You seem to be stuck on that concept.

The message she will be giving her daughter is ABUSE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, WHATSOEVER!

You seem to be fairly intelligent as far as studying, seeing how well you know the Bible. So take the opportunity to learn about abuse.

L2S, I will continue to pray for you. You are doing so well and you sound so much stronger! The only "fog" you are coming out of is the one you've been living in for so many years. You've come a LONG way, Sweetie!! I'm so proud of you! Keep up the great work!!

(((L2S)))

Techie, you wrote in an earlier post to me:

I'm not sure if this was a slam on your part, i.e. that you were sarcastically saying that my financial health would justify the D where his As do not.

In your last post, you wrote: (My comments are in bold in the body of your comments).
I really don't want to be in limbo any more. Not divorced but not married either.

Bravo, L2S!!

And BTW, you do NOT have to "justify" your decision! You are doing what is right for YOU and your daughter and THAT'S what matters! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No "slam" intended.
Since you have indicated a belief in, and a desire to follow, the teachings of the bible, I am only trying to communicate what I believe the bible teaches us in this very difficult area. In contrast to some other people, who seem to only be urging you on a purely secular basis.

As far as "justify" goes... I dont like to use that word. I think a more appropriate word might be "neccessary".




I would advise such a daughter in exactly the same way I am advising you now: To protect herself from harm, but at the same time, remain "married", and keep the promise she made, in front of and to God, to remain married to the man: until death, or until HE divorces, or until she cannot effectively protect herself and children without resorting to legal divorce.
As a father, I would hurt inside, horribly, that my daughter is suffering. Just as our heavenly father also grieves for our suffering. But as a father, it would be my responsability to tell my daughter what I believe God wishes her to do in that situation.
As a father, my primary and overriding goal, would be to teach my daughter to do what is right by God, above doing what is going to make her life easier/more pleasant/comfortable.


in a word: yes. because "moving on" would make the rest of my life a betrayal of my word.

You swore an oath before God(presuming you had a church marriage) that you would never "move on", reguardless of how bad things got between you.
until death of one of you. One of you is not dead.

Hurts like heck. Scary and lonely too. I am potentially facing this myself, right now, so this is not some theoretical commitment on my part I am talking about.


I mean that you have stated some specific problems that you are having from your husband (eg: the cellphone), and I am suggesting to look for specific solutions to those specific problems, rather than just divorcing to "fix" things.
(note that divorcing, may not actually fix all of the things you are complaining about anyway! you will still have to take additional actions, such as changing your home phone number, to get rid of harassing phone calls)

PS: you are not "in limbo" right now. You are married. Unfortunately, you dont have a functional one, and I share your sorrow in that.

My WH has told me that he continues to talk to his XW and the OW b/c I told him that there was no hope for us. He has told me that he would do anything I wanted him to do if we could get back together. He would agree to 24/7 monitoring via GPS, PI, etc.

But, he hasn't changed any of his ways b/c I told him that there is no chance for us. I haven't filed for D but I did get a draft settlement agreement drawn up. I believe I want a D b/c of all that has happened but, I haven't filed. I'm having a hard time taking the last step.

So, are his actions those of a man who is interested in his marriage surviving or is he someone who is just trying to string me along for whatever reason? He used the analogy of an old car that I said I wanted nothing to do with. I didn't like the color, the ride, the whatever. So, he sold it and then I came back and got mad b/c he sold it.

He is telling me now that I need to go file b/c he doesn't want to hurt me again but b/c of his need for sex, he is going to end up hurting me b/c it's something he can't live w/o; keeps saying "you know how I am". We haven't been together in about 7 months and I truly don't believe that he has been celibate all that time.

He alternates between being nice and nasty. Threatens suicide when I talk about going forward w/the D but then encourages me to move forward b/c we don't have a physical R.

So, are these the actions of a man willing to do whatever is necessary to make his M work?

Well words are cheap. And his actions give you no comfort I am sure.

BK,
Exactly. He talks a great game but, I haven't seen any changes. Those are important to me but, it always helps to see things from other perspectives.

I've said before change and we'll see where it takes us.

He would say come home and I'll change. Now he says there's no need to change b/c I don't want him.

But, he continues to tell me how much he loves me and how much he wants our marriage to work.

I don't get it.

He's still totally fogged. If his lips are moving, it's a fair bet he's lying. I would say file personally.

Her marriage problems are not about a PHONE. It's about ABUSE, secular or not!

Why do you continue to avoid this issue, Techie, of abuse? Do you know how divorce could help L2S? It would remove her H's sense of "ownership" and "entitlement" to control L2S and to continue to ABUSE her. Why is this so difficult to understand? Is abuse acceptable in your view? If so, how? I'm not asking you to "justify" your reasoning for acceptance of this, just to explain how it would be "neccesary", to accept abuse in ANY form. You keep saying the only way divorce would be neccesary would be for reasons of protection of "harm" or a "threat" to the marriage. Do you not consider "abuse" to be harmful or a threat? If not, what would you call it?



(((L2S))), I'm behind you all the way!

I dont know the man. I only know what I have read. and I am going to try to base my comments in this post, mainly on your most recent post which I am replying to.

To me, it sounds like a man who is honestly wanting to make his marriage work. However, he is not yet willing to do "whatever is neccessary" to make his marriage work.

That is to say, sounds like he isnt willing to get personal counselling for his various problems, including his repeated suicide threats.

That being said: he IS willing (at least verbally) to do a heck of a lot! More than quite a few WS's.

Again, I'm going to try to deliberately ignore all but your most recent post, because you are the person that knows him best... and I think that means that what you write, is probably the best indicator of the biggest problem for "a marriage that can work" between you both.

From your most recent post only, it sounds like the biggest problem, is his unwillingness to control his sex drive.
Or at least, to manage it some how.



for what it's worth: i dont think he's trying to "string you along". I think he is a desparate man, who is trying to get his own selfish needs met instead of focusing on your needs.
That being said.. being a man myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know how overwhelming the sexual drive can be to a man. If it isnt handled properly, both at the physical level, and also at the emotional and mental level, it will overwhelm the good desires in him. (and yes, even with his problems, I think that he has some amount of significant good desires for you in him)
If he isnt offered a way to handle it.. he wont be capable of handling it. I think he really doesnt know how to.

He flip-flops because he has conflicting desires in him.
He probably is nicer to you soon after he has had his sexual needs met in one form or another, and so the strength of that over him has diminished.

There are ways to deal with his sexual problems, in ways that let you test him, yet without "testing him" beyond his capacity.



The primary thing, is to confront him, and make this a condition of you even looking his way again. Say that you MUST HAVE a husband capable of controlling his sexual urges towards other people, and that he is going to have to prove he is capable of this.

Then offer suggestions to him on how he might manage them.
I havent read it, but I hear the book "every man's battle" deals with these issues well. you might read it, and offer it to him if you think it is appropriate.

Another practical method: suggest that he cut out all red meat from his diet. This should drastically reduce his sex drive, and make self-control more manageable for him after a few weeks.

Additionally, you might go the more medical route, and suggest that he actually take pills to reduce his sexual drive.
If you suggest this, you need to be ultra-clear that this is only for during this time of separation between you. Make it clear that you enjoy sex, and are in no way trying to emasculate him... this is just to help him through this time when you do not feel protected and safe and loved enough to meet his sexual needs yourself.





The next part may be offensive to you: I apologize in advance if it is so. i offer it merely as a suggestion.



With all the above being mentioned on reducing his drive, you then need to suggest some kinds of sexual outlets that you approve of, to handle the remaining drive, while you are apart. If you were emotionally intimate and trusting of him, i would suggest sending him erotic pictures of yourself. This is in my mind, the "ideal", in that it makes it easier for him to get "relief", yet maintains, and even reinforces him being faithful to you, mentally and emotionally.
This approach helped me a whole lot, when my wife and I were having problems with sexual frequency a few years ago. It drew me emotionally closer to her, both by the subject matter, and by the fact that she cared enough to give them to me.

But presuming that this is out of the question, the next best thing might be, if you approve of it, you giving him your choice of magazines/videos to use to help himself.
I would recommend you specifying specific ones, rather than you just telling him "go look at porn or something"

I HATE suggesting this. It is in some ways encouraging mental adultery/lust/etc. Yet, if you cannot give of yourself, I think it is the "lesser of the two evils", compared to him actualy physically getting involved with other women.

One of the more damaging things about porn, is that it conditions the person to get aroused by things/people that are far separated from their spouses. If you are willing to wade through that stuff yourself, though, you would get the choice of choosing the material with women that are similar in form to yourself. So in that way, you can encourage his sexual habits to still stay close to "you".

In my opinion, to make a divorce "neccessary", the actions of the spouse have to be both harmful/threatening, AND unresolvable in any other manner.

I do not believe that L2S should put up with the negative behaviours from her husband that she has previously described.

However, neither do I believe that it is neccessary for her to divorce her husband, to stop the abuse, at this point in time.



You seem to have the opinion, "if there is EVER abuse, then a woman must divorce, every time, there is no going back".

I do not share that black-and-white opinion. I think thatsometimes in abusive situations, divorce is neccessary, whereas in others, separation for a time can be adequate.

So the threat of killing her in her sleep doesn't warrant the necessity of divorce. The poor guy just needs some "help".

Sorry, don't buy that. Abuse is abuse. And her daughter should not have to pay the price of the possibility of ever losing her mother, or even just the 'fear' of that happening.

This whole marriage isn't just about the phone or "his" sex problems. Abuse is involved, PHYSICAL abuse, and yes, THAT is where all bets should be off. A boundry NEVER to be crossed. Personal safety is a factor, here. Otherwise, I would agree with your advice under any other circumstances. Your advice is wise and of well thought. I just don't believe it should apply to a physically abusive marriage.

In the last two months two threads on MB, warned about the danger of applying a 'normal' approach to sexual problems in a marriage, when the man has a SA problem. No matter what you do for him, his 'need' would not be satisfied unless he adresses his addiction.

L2S, your husband seems a narcisit and a philanderer. There is nothing in your behavior that you could do to help him to change, if he doesn't want to change. If he wanted to change, the difference would be so clear and evident that you would have not doubts about his dedication to your M.

Thanks all.
Away for the weekend with family; wonderful time. Had my DD's 15th bday party Friday night and left Saturday around noon for a family event. Just got back to town.

What exactly does being narcisist (sp ?) mean? I've heard the term hundreds of times and have probably read the definition a few.

On Friday, he was encouraging me to file b/c he can't continue to "do without". So, his answer is not to change his ways but to find a new partner that will meet his needs. He's been telling me for weeks that he can't continue to live the way I want him to. So, he'd rather chunk it all than make some positive changes and get help for his anger.

I'm really hurt by the whole thing but can't imagine continuing to live this way, not married but not divorced.

"I'm really hurt by the whole thing but can't imagine continuing to live this way, not married but not divorced.
"


You are married, l2s.

Dont match his fog with your own

Dont make decisions, based around clouding the reality of your situation.

"things have been horrible .. our marriage has been 'over' for years..." is the exact same line that WS's use to justify "it isnt adultery; i'm not 'really' married anyway."


He's challenging you. trying to manipulate you.
If you are going to divorce him, do it because of your own clear-headed decisions. Not because he goaded you into it.

Why wont you do the "plan B" approach? i dont think you've once answered this.

"i'm too tired of things" is not an honest answer.
With plan B, you spend some small initial time up front,and then if you do it right, you are mostly done. It is significantly LESS effort (and money!) than a divorce.


Change numbers, designate a contact, change locks, then forget about him. When he shows up at your door, dont argue with him. (and do NOT open the door!)
Tell him if he's not ready to be a real man and face his responsabilities as a husband, then get out of your face or you'll call the police. Say nothing else to him.
If he doesnt leave in 30 seconds, then CALL them. no
"I'm going to call them.... I'm really going to call them... i really mean it this time..."

CALL THEM. Straight up, let him hear you talking to the dispatcher. That will shut him up pretty fast.

WHY are you unwilling to do this?

If he threatens you after that point... get it on record with the police, and then file

Techie,
I don't really understand your whole philosophy toward this. I appreciate your opinions, your viewpoints, your posts but, I don't understand them.

I know that I'm married. I'm under no illusion that I'm not. My H has used our deteriorated marriage to justify his As.

You say that he's challenging me; manipulating me. How? Why?

I understand your interpretation of scripture and your belief that one should never D. But, I won't stay M but separated for the rest of my life. He has proven that our vows mean nothing where getting his needs fulfilled are concerned. Actually we still had a physical R when he had the As.

So, your advice is do a Plan B and then file when he threatens me?

==================
I was away for the weekend and he never called once. I was w/my family and he knew it. Came back last night; nothing. Today, he called a dozen times offering to help me in any way; bring lunch, help me w/anything I need help with. I don't get it.

Still saying though to file. Does he want the D but wants me to file so he doesn't have to pay?

hi L2S,

from what I read, a vast majority of WS's bug the BS to file.
It doesnt make any sense to ME... but this is a known thing. That is the manipulation. He's trying to get you to file instead of him.

It's not about money. I think it's about justification, and giving HIM a clean slate that "he never filed for divorce, he wanted to save the marriage".



I think that he is basically like an alchoholic, that recognizes the damage he is doing, and "wants to help"... but he wants to help by "cutting back", not committing to come "clean and sober", sexually.

I think that your husband truely wants to reconcile with you... but on his terms.

Make it clear to him, that it's your terms or nothing.
That is what plan B is for, in my mind. to stop the painful contact, AND to draw a line: this is what it takes to reconcile - i will accept nothing less.


Somewhere in your heart, I think you have a list of what it would take for him to do, for you to be willing to look at reconciliation.
You are frustrated, hurt, and lonely, that he is screaming, "i wont I wont I wont I wont!"

he's like a toddler.

SO, tell him to behave like an adult and commit to fixing ALL the issues you have ... or dont bother talking to you any more.

The man is physically dangerous. This seems to be a difficult concept for you, Techie. This is no longer about "him" and "his" problems. It's about L2S and her safety, as well as her daughter's. THAT is the bottom line.

It's very disturbing to me, Techie, how you seem to dismiss this fact of abuse so easily. NO plan B can "fix" this guy. His problems go WAY deeper than infidelity, alcohol and "bad behavior".

I hope you will someday research abuse, and base your facts on that. This could be life or death for L2S, and whether or not he changes is just not worth the risk of her LIFE.

jennifer68, i think you need to stop projecting your own fears on other peoples' relationships.
I understand your concern about the dangers of physical abuse in relationships. but it is not the significant factor in this relationship.

First up, if it was.. then L2S would have mentioned that as a concern for her.
She hasnt. She has many other concerns, but i dont think she has ever mentioned this area as a serious concern for her.

Secondly,... he has not hit her even one time. L2S said that specifically.
It is way too big of a stretch to claim that "her life is in danger", when he has never hit or injured her previously.