Wow, unbelievable. I give up.

I don't think I'm the only one "projecting" my ideas on other people's relationships, Techie, but to each their own, I guess.

L2S, I'm here for ya', Sweetie. Just know that. Bye bye, for now.

(((L2S)))

Techie,
Jennifer68 is right.

He slapped me about two weeks ago. Before that he has pushed me, shoved me. Threw a pen at me that went through my lip and left a hole in it. Slammed my leg against a vehicle doorjam. Pulled a handful of hair out. Talked about watching me sleep and thinking about killing me while I slept.

Yeah, there has been physical abuse.

And, I do wonder that now that the boundary has been crossed that it will only escalate. No need to hold back now b/c the line has been crossed.

I talked to the Harley's on their talk show months ago. When I started talking about our many problems, the only one Mr. Harley was concerned about was the physical abuse. In his opinion, nothing progressed until he got help. Hasn't happened. I don't think he even thinks he has a problem.

oopsie. guess I missed a post or two, then.
(different thread?)

sorry.

Techie,
So, does all your advice still apply?

Remain married but separated?

i'm not sure now.

I think it would depend if there was clear and deliberate intent to hurt you. I can think of situations where everyone of those things you said, with the exception of the slap, could have not been intentional.
(what happened in the situation where he slapped you?)

AND if there was deliberate intent, if you think that was a temporary, or continuing issue.

If you believe that to be an ongoing risk... then you should probably seek some professional help for yourself, to determine options in that reguard.

if you are agreeable to whatever is suggested to you in that reguard, then perhaps it would make sense to continue with what I suggested, merged with whatever the abuse counsellor suggests.

Hmm.

what I typed above, applies to the idea of, "separate, but hope for reconciliation someday"

That doesnt actually answer your specific question, of, do I stil think it is appropriate to be "married but separate"

erm....
From a biblical Christian standpoint, I'm not sure there is any alternative biblically suggested action on your part. The exceptions being if either he divorces YOU, or you have to legally divorce him in order to obtain legal protection for yourself and family via restraining orders, etc, because he attacked you after you have told him you will not tolerate any such harm against you or your family any more.

In the second part, however... "legal divorce" is not equivalent to "biblical divorce". You can be biblically married without being legally married. you can be legally divorced, without being biblically divorced.
I think the strict biblical interpretation of your situation, is that you are still not free to marry anyone else before God, unless he dies, or divorces you.

I sit here typing this while my daughter goes to church w/my sister b/c I allow him to bully me out of going to church. He is convinced I had an A w/guy that goes to my church. I did not but I guess it makes him feel better about what he has done so he accuses me. Did I give him cause to think it? Yes. I talked to the guy when in retrospect I shouldn't have. I never had a R w/him and never saw him or talked to him outside of church. But, most of the violent acts on my H's part occurred b/c of arguments over this guy. The others were b/c he thought I had lied about something. If I had reacted toward him like he has toward me over lies, I would have put him in the hospital on numerous occasions.

But, it's ok for my H to have continued contact w/XW and OW and others from his past that he had a physical R with.

Go figure.

You know, he has acted violently toward me and has threatened to commit suicide on numerous occasions. Just today I heard about a husband, wife and one year old in a car going somewhere. The H and W were agruing. They pulled over in the median of the road and continued the argument. The H went around the car to the passenger side, sat in the front seat and shot himself in the head with a 45; dead at the scene. The bullet passed through his head and into the Ws left leg as she was trying to get the baby out of the car; baby not harmed.

Everything is fine as long as I don't rock the boat and make him mad. If I play along and do what he wants me to do, all is okay. If I don't...............

I said nothing about anger excusing anything.
"clear and deliberate intent to hurt you" I think is the key issue, whether it is "in anger" or not.


i find that very interesting. and I think that it is good that you notice that link.
I'm not saying that it makes it "ok". but I think its a lot different from a guy who beats his wife because she didnt cook his dinner right, for example.

---


The suicide "example" you give, though, does not in any way make a logical link of "suicide threats are violent threats against you", if that's what you were going for. That was a freak case. it does not hold true for 99.99whatever percent of suicides or suicide attempts.

yes, suicide threats are nasty, manipulative, emotional blackmail. But they are NOT "violence against you".

Life2short,

I’ve read some of your posts, but not all of them.

I’ve read enough to know that your H is mentally and physically abusive.

L2S, this forum is about support and honest advice from people that have successfully recovered from infidelity and understand the MB plan as applied to building a M.

Dr. Harley himself advises that ANY S that is being physically abused IMMEDIATELY remove themselves from contact with the abusive S.

There are no exceptions.

Your H is definitely dangerous because he has systematically bulldozed boundaries of good judgment to affect his perceived influence on your relationship and your M.

When using the MB forums to help you find your way through all of this sordid mess please weigh the advices that you receive based upon the particular individual’s grasp of the MB concepts and their SUCCESS in implementing and following through with the plan.

This is not to say that people that have not succeeded in saving their marriages are not wonderfully capable MB’rs; in some cases you can do everything right and still not succeed.

Let’s get something straight about the threatening of suicide though. Threatening suicide is absolutely violence in a relationship. It is the ultimate passive aggressive threat that a partner will kill themselves if they don’t get what they want and will end their own life thus resulting in the irrational notion that it will be the surviving partner’s fault.

It’s disgusting and abusive.

There are those people that kill themselves and leave us wondering if they did it to relieve themselves from their own pain, or in the end, did it to “inflict harm” on the person that they perversely love and want to control.

My understanding is that WS’s that threaten suicide are absolutely trying to effect control on the BS. The BS seem to more often just “do it” without a whole lot of threatening at all.

In your situation L2S, I would without hesitation Baker Act your H if he so much as mentions suicide again. I would without delay obtain a restraining order.

You have to decide if you want to save your M. Is this man worth it after he has committed adultery on you, been physically and mentally abusive, threatens suicide, and continues his sick behaviors.

We can’t tell you the answer to that question; it is yours alone to own.

What I can tell you is that his pattern is escalating in nature and unless he gets REAL psychological help he will NOT change. Something really bad will have to happen for him to take long enough pause to examine his life and do the right things on his own accord.

Do you want to continue your M? If your H took all the steps to straighten himself out mentally would you give it another try? Is this man worth it to you?

If yes, then you have the plan B option. IMO this would include a letter specifically stating what it would take for him to be accepted back into your life such as psychotherapy, non abusiveness, self control, and NC with OW.

If no, then plan D is the only viable option left.

Best regards,

Plank,
You're advice is pretty forthright. And, you are right. I have to make the decision and own the decision.

I have to say that I believe that calling the police if he threatens suicide again would make matters much worse. What I would really LIKE to do is get my stuff, get it over with and never have to see him again. That would be the easiet thing for me but, it's not likely to happen.

I have some issues of my own. He hasn't done a single thing to me that I haven't allowed and enabled. I've let him get by w/the behavior. I keep going back around him. I keep the contact going. He has the ability to stir pity within me that makes me do things for him b/c of things he says.

The As were not my fault. I don't own a single grain of responsibility for what he did. I don't own the first one and I don't own the ones that happened after we separated.

We may have been able to repair the M but he treated me like dirt. He cursed me out, pushed me around, threatened me with exposure of my past, etc. Essentially, he bullied me. I escaped from the house but not the M. I don't want to paint myself as a saint who never did anything wrong b/c I did plenty wrong but, I never cheated and I never put him through the verbal/emotional/physical abuse that he has subjected me to. That and knowing about the multiple affairs has me where I am now.

Emotionally, I'm not swayed by his words. There hasn't been any action behind the words. No counseling sessions, no church attendance, no NC regarding the other women. Still getting mad and lashing out(slapped me 2-3 weeks ago). Still threatening suicide.

I really hate my life right now but only I can make the changes that correct that.

L2S,

You said: [color:"blue"] I have some issues of my own. He hasn't done a single thing to me that I haven't allowed and enabled. [/color]

I’m not known for gentle sugar coating either here or in person; so I would like to tell you that I am concerned for your safety and your M.

That’s sincere.

It does, however, really pain me to see my past failures possibly manifesting in other people that are already hurting in the aftermath of an A.

If there is one thing that Loving Anyway has succeeded in pounding into my head during my MB travels it’s that every relationship is a dance.

I read those words a million times before the light bulb finally went off in my head and I took ownership for my own personal accountability of choices in the ebb and flow of action and reaction in the relationship that I have with my W.

So, out of compassion, I desperately want other people to “short cut” the pain that they may have in their own lives and get to the root of the problem, particularly if it’s rooted in the dance they maintain in their daily lives with their partner.

What I’m trying to point out is this:
The dance you are dancing with your WS is predictable and seeded in routine. He lunges to the left, you lunge with him. He steps in with the right foot and you are moving your right foot back. No toes stepped on for sure, but he’s leading and you are responding.

The thing to know, own, concede, understand, accept, and yell from the mountain top about here is that you understand this.

I believe that Dr. Harley’s principles of MB’ing help to define the dance. They help to set limits on what is ok and show your partner that you are really a pretty good dancer; one of the best.

In every relationship there is an leader and a responder. Sometimes you take turns. Sometimes one partner does 90% of the leading.

When the leading partner is the WS and they are defining the dance there’s a real problem. They become an excellent cake eater that can tango with one person while they are doing the waltz with another. But since they can’t dance with both people at the same time, they become frustrated as all get out.

How does abuse fall into all of this? Well, emotional and physical abuse can either be “just another type of dance” or so deeply entrenched in the aggressor’s psyche that it’s nearly impossible to change.

The only way that we can find out which one is the TRUTH here is if we take a turn at doing the leading and force a different rhythm to the routine.

Your WS’s response to all of this will be the telling in the story here.

Stop being an enabler. Stop accepting responsibility for abuse to yourself. Start looking really hard at yourself and why you would try to justify his mental and physical assaults.

There comes a point in the dance where your actions of enabling actually become self destructive and self deprecating.

I wish you the best! I pray for your success.

Stay strong.

Just had another long conversation with H. He refuses to live another day like we have been: no physical R. Continues to say that I "know how he is": interpretation - can't live w/o sex.

So, he says I need to call the lawyer today and get the final document completed for signature. Interpretation - so he can feel good about seeing someone else and it not be cheating. Although, he won't wait until the D is final before he's with someone else.

He continues to make veiled comments about suicide. He hasn't gotten help. Says he would do anything in the world but has done nothing because I won't tell him that there's a chance. Says there's no need to do anything b/c I've told him that I wouldn't touch him w/a 10 foot pole, that I want nothing to do w/him, etc. That is true b/c of the multiple As and the things I've learned about what he has said and done and the number of people that he has involved in the Rs that he had/has.

So, he is basically telling me to file so he can have freedom to legally/morally pursue other women for companionship and SF. He hasn't worked on anything, continually accuses me of seeing someone (I'm not). I think he does the latter to make himself feel better for all that he has done; just my Psych 101 kicking in.

I don't want to continue arguing about the same things. I don't want to be hurt anymore or have him hurt. He says he's lonely and has no one. Says I fuss at him when he talks to others for companionship (women - yeah I do). I'm not talking to anyone, never have been, and I get mad when the man that says he loves me w/everything he has talks to other women and then justifies it by saying he's lonely. We've been separated now x 2.5 years. In my opinion it's time to work on M or end it.

Is there any hope for this situation? I don't think he thinks he has a problem with cheating, anger, threatening suicide, physical abuse, etc.

Do I need to just D and move on?

Did you tell him to do it himself?
if not, why not?
if you did, what did he say?


I'm kinda shocked that you havent done this still, even given your situation.

I think you owe him just this much and no more. Write up what it would take. pull no punches. Dont keep things out "just because you know he'll never do them". Just the opposite. Put in all the things that you want from a marriage, and that you want him to change in himself, even if you have no belief that he will do.

eg:

1. individual counseling for sexual addiction, suicide threats, physical abuse, ...

2. marital counselling

3. no more "do what I want or i'll kill myself", EVER

4. no more "I 'have' to have sex' whether or not it's immoral, etc, etc".

4. no more slapping/hitting/physically hurting you again, EVER

5. ... whatever else you find missing from your marriage ...

(and some wording in there, to make it clear that there is hope, not when he starts the counselling, but if he makes PROGRESS and CHANGES with it.)



You could tell him to agree to 100% of this, or he should file divorce himself.

Print it out, keep it in your pocket.
Every time he brings things up, pull it out and wave it in his face. (keep an extra copy to hand to him to keep).
"Look, you ASKED ME what it would take. THIS is what it will take. Are you ready for this yet, or are you going to file now?"

Examine the alternatives of this:

a) he says "I'll never do it", and files. problem solved.

b) he says "I'll never do it", and still bugs you to file.
At this point if you dont want to plan B, then you can still use the "wave in face" tactic to avoid long useless arguments with him. dont respond to anything else from him
If you stick firm to this, he will eventually give up trying to get around it.


c) he says, "I'll do it", but doesnt really.
well, if he's even halfway trying, it should give you
a more peacable existance. This is the complicated one,
but I hope in some ways a someunlikely one. he's far
more likely to just outright reject, than fake it, it
would seem.

d) he says, "I'll do it"... and actually does it, and sticks to it through a year or more.
ermmm.... well, you'll have to decide if this is the most scarey prospect for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
On the brighter side...(?)... you probably wont have to worry about dealing with this.
Unless he is truely truely sincere in what he has been saying to you for the past 6 months about his intentions. which you dont believe he is, so... no worries, right?

If nothing else, it should make him shut up about "he will do anything in the world" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

yes, i'm sure you've tried to argue about "well then stop screwing around", "no, i 'need' that that's impossible", blah blah.
I think it will help stop the back-and-forth on that, to both have it down on paper, and to label his issue: he has a sexual addition, and he has to get help to manage it.
He is not the only healthy man his age, who isnt getting sex on a regular basis. If they arent dieing from lack of sex, then clearly, it's a mental issue that he has, thinking that that he somehow 'cant live without it'.

Did you tell him to do it himself?
if not, why not?
if you did, what did he say?

I told him that if he was so concerned about the D, why didn't he go file? He said I should go b/c I've already started the process.

I think for him if I file I take on all the cost of it b/c he has agreed to everything that's in the settlement. He can also say that he tried everything he could think of and I still filed so the D was my fault b/c he was willing to try and I wasn't.

I have to be out of town over the weekend and may think about a list of things that would need to change before I would consider talk about our R working. I can tell you that he will either expect me to resume a physical R or he will start seeing someone else; that's an absolute given. I'm sure he knows that millions of men and women "do without" but he doesn't intend to be counted in that number. That's a big part of what has us where we are now.

"I can tell you that he will either expect me to resume a physical R or he will start seeing someone else; that's an absolute given.
[...]That's a big part of what has us where we are now.
"

What are your blatently honest feelings about that? I dont remember you answering, when I kinda asked you about that.
If somehow, you were convinced he was doing absolutely EVERYTHING ELSE he could... would you be willing to give him /some/ kind of "assistance" in that department, relatively soon into things?

I could start giving graphic examples from the least involved, to greatest involved actions on your part. But unless that is required because you are "stuck" as to what the options are... i'll see if you have anything to suggest first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PS: Did you actually start the legal divorce process? or just get all the papers and stuff prepared by a lawyer?

If the second... I would think it's easy enough to get blank court papers, and have someone retype them but leave the "person filing" and "respondant" or whatever blank.

I have an attorney. He has drafted a settlement agreement and my H and I have gone back and forth until we have what is agreeable to us both. I'm coming out on the losing end considering what I've made versus him but, my attorney advised me to settle for less in order to get it over with and not have to end up in court. (I live in a no fault state - 30 days after filed, we're divorced).

As for what I'm willing to do regarding SF. That would totally depend on what he is willing to do. He has done some pretty nasty stuff in the relationships he has had w/OW (pleural) and a lot of people know it. I'm very embarrassed by what he has done. He did not bother to hide it b/c he was in love w/OW and planned to D me to be w/her. Not sure what happened to their R unless a) he decided he couldn't live like she does (health nut) or b) she figured him out.

Anyway, we always had a good physical R but, what he did really sickens me and thoughts of him w/them dampens any feelings I have in that department.

I have absolutely no doubt whatever that he will be in another A if I don't resume physical R w/him pretty soon. My gut tells me though that he's already there or hasn't stopped at all which is more likely the case. Just a hunch.

When FWH asked me to recover he knew that the absolute minimum amount of time he would be going without any sort of intimate contact from me was 6 months.

If you feel pressured that you must be physical or intimate with an active wayward spouse in order to "keep them faithfull" or something like that...you are acting on fear of a threat not making a choice that you are comfortable with.

Personally I feel that if he can't keep it in his pants long enough to recover then he just isn't worth the {tremendous} effort of recovery and will probably slide right back into this sort of behavior whenever it is inconvenient to do otherwise.

I think that both noodle has a point, AND your concerns/feelings on the subject are valid too, l2s.
both in your statement of your own feelings, and your feeling that 6 months, etc. is probably too long.

Its perfectly understandable that you in no way feel "intimate" with him right now. you shouldnt be expected to.

That being said, some men really do have a more difficult time doing without. but they should be able to resort to something other than "intercourse with a woman". ESPECIALLY if they have some kind of help.


Two comments I have:

1. Can I suggest that you put in a shorter up-front "prove yourself"+abstinence period (2 months?)

2. you keep avoiding my question about what you would be willing to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Not "interested in", but "willing"

So... SF is obviously his #1 EN. he doesnt require you to have "romantic feelings" at this point. he just needs you to be willing to be involved in some way.
It's up to YOU, to determine to what level (if any), you are willing to be involved with him in early "wait and see what he does" timeframes.

Not, "what would you feel turned on by". This is actually not about you. This is about meeting his EN, I'm sorry to say.

Sounds horrible given your past with him. But the question for yourself is; if you could in some limited fashion help him with his #1 EN, and then eventually get the husband you always wanted... is it worth it to you, to work it out with him?
I dont guarantee that you will get it. But if he is doing EVERYTHING you ask for in your writeup... would you be willing to give him limited help soon?

Definately not "up front". There has to be some kind of "prove yourself, AND dont screw around, for X amount of time" involved.

I guess since you seem to be "shy", I'll also spell things out some options for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

options given in what I think is increasing order of intimacy and involvement. They may not be what YOUR order of "increasing intimacy" is. but they may be closest to what his increasing order of preferences are.
He obviously prefers the "live woman" approach, so I think this order is correct from his perspective.

* * * Graphic section follows * * *


[a. the "you select the porn" option. but I really dont like this]

b. Pictures of you. Initially, let him take as revealing pictures as he wants from you, during one evening. Then, for your own feelings of security, keep them in a locked very strong box, that only you can open.(and ideally, only you can move them).

When he wants to use them, he has to ask you for them. when he's done he has to give him back.

It's a bit humiliating this way for him. It would be nicer if you could let him keep them somewhere in the house, and you can spot-check that they're all there from time to time or something.


c. pose for him "live", when he asks you, and how he asks you, within your own limits. (while he takes care of things). but be physically separate.


d. "play" with yourself as he takes care of him. (you can ignore him, close your eyes, and just take care of yourself. he wont mind)

e. Be next to him in some fashion while he goes at it
(naked, in contact) (possibly while doing option d as well)

f. "play" with him in some fashion, with your hands and/or arms. You might choose to stick to non-genital areas, or go "all the way" and directly help him out. Whatever you feel you can deal with.

g. let him rub against you in some way.

I'll leave progression after that, up to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


You might even give him a timetable, with something like this list, and how long it would take for him to be clean, before you would move "down" the list to the next thing.


warning: if you do this, there will be a strong pull, to "skip ahead" in the schedule, because your body will probably start getting into it. Be prepared to fight that part of yourself.


I also suggest putting in the "no red meat" thing. I bet he eats a lot of it, and it contributes to his problems.

PS; get the separation agreement papers printed out. have them ready at the same time you have your list for a good marriage.

You can then tell him, "pick one, and run with it".
If he wants a divorce, he can go file it.
If he wants reconciliation, he'd better start working for it.