This is just my personal opinion.

Having established the disclaimer I am now free to be uninhibited in my response [winks].

In no way would I suggest that SF isn't a valid EN or an important one..they all are.

I will say that there are times when we all need to put our ENs in the trunk for the greater good.

I'm willing to bet that several of yours have been sitting on the curb for some time now haven't they...yet somehow you have managed to go on living.

This is part of what being an adult is all about. We make choices and we pay for those choices...when we make bad choices the consequences are unpleasasant.

If my husband approached me about recovering from HIS affair with anything resembling a demand or an expectation all he would have seen was the door swinging shut.

I can not RESPECT a person who is so unable/unwilling to control themselves that they must have satisfaction or be unfaithfull. I can't be married to someone I don't respect.

3 months is the amount of time it would take for the FIRST round of STD tests to be taken...6 for the followup...so 6 was my absolute minimum for it to even be a consideration.


BSs set the bar too low in a panic when they believe they have to settle for what is being offered or die.

The truth is..life will go on whether he redeems himself or not....the question is will he have the opportunity to spend it with you before you have moved on.

Let the WS carry their burden and if they will not then let them go..because who wants to spend the rest of their life with the axe of a weak spouse swinging over their head?

For me..either he is willing to do the right thing..be faithfull and committed..BECAUSE it is the right thing [not because he is being satiated] or he is a liability.

I think that I am compelled to share a part of my past that I'm not happy with.

I was a "sexual addict" myself, in a way. I was addicted to using pornography.

I eventually quit it. After multiple failed attempts.

but I do not think I would have been able to, if my wife had not started giving me more regular, willing sex

(as opposed to infrequent, highly begrudged sex)

Noodle, was your husband a sexual addict, with multiple affair partners?

Given that he survived the 6 months <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I dont think he was.
I think there may be a need for "concurrent treatment" in this case (while also staying very clear of STDs, and also not pressuring L2S to cross any personal boundaries that she has right now.)

So can we assume that if you are not getting what you want when you want it you will return to lying sneaking and using porn?

In that case I would consider you untrustrworthy and a liability.

Your addiction to sex would not be allowed to put shackles of being responsible to keep you sober [so to speak] the rest of my life.

There is a difference between support and enabling.

Techie ..

I'm not a marriage at all costs kind of girl.

The above scenario would fall into my "tough sh*t" category.

I would not be willing to be put at ANY disadvantage or vulnerability with a poor candidate.

That was a big part of my unwillingness to engage in sex post ONS with my H.

ps..he went longer than 6 months and SF is his numero uno.

I will first say this: consider that the Harleys themselves usually (but not always) recommend a different approach for people who are addicted. To paraphrase the percieved intent: Once the involved person has "broken" the addiction, then you can build a postive, strong relationship with them.
But.. they will always be vulnerable to a relapse, if not protected. Yes, they have a responsability to guard themselves. but so do you. You will always have a little extra responsability towards them, that you would not have in a different relationship.

For spouses of alchoholics, that would mean, no telling your neighbour, "SURE, I'll look after your crate of [beer/wine/xxx] in our house for a week because you're out of room over there"

For spouses of sex addicts, that means different things.

I can understand that you would not wish to give additional support to your spouse, if they were to become addicted to something. that is your choice to make. I'm glad that you did not have to deal with that, with your husband.

Techie..

I call balony.

I *can't* be responsible for someone elses choices.

I can meet their ENs to the best of my ability [and my ability is going to vary] and not willfully put them in harms way and that's about it.

So..no I wouldn't offer to hang onto a neighbors alcohol if my spouse was a recovering alcoholic.

I wouldn't take a recovering sex addict to a strip club either.

Having sex with a sex addict will not make them LESS of an addict any more than having a glass of wine will satiate the alcoholic. Addiction and ENs are two separate issues.

First they conquer the addiction THEN you go about meeting the ENs harley style.

Now in the case of infidelity...I am unbound from this man..I don't owe him diddly squat...and I don't HAVE to help him, support him, or retain any intimate relationship with him.

In fact...just being *willing* to recover when and if he demonstrates that he is once more a good candidate for spending my life with is being generous... the burden of climbing that mountain and slaying that dragon is solely his.

Now as I do love this person and am invested in the outcome..I would certainly want to AID and not HINDER that effort...but not in a way that requires me to be vulnerable to a known predator.

People either learn to cope as adults or they do not...they are willing to go the distance or they aren't...there isn't really a lot anyone can do to alter that outcome short of brain surgery via telekinesis.

L2S, I believe your H is using the "sex with someone else" card to lure you back. "If you don't do this, then I'll do that..." Another threat. So would you really go back just to prevent that from happening? Just so he won't be with someone else?

The way I see it, L2S, sex isn't the main problem here. He has bigger issues that should be considered WAY above his "sex" issues. Even if you solved all of the sex problems, it would NOT solve the anger and abuse he has inside him. Sex won't "cure" his bigger issues.

If you were to lay it all out, (all of his issues, that is), starting with the worst issue, sex shouldn't be at the top of the list. His emotional/mental/PHYSICAL abuse should be rated as his #1 problem.

I would be looking at that first, and determining whether or not the marriage could ever be healthy. THAT is what your decision should be based on, not his sexual needs. Repairing your marriage based on sex issues would be if your marriage had suffered ONLY from infidelity and sex issues. But you have bigger things to look at here, and take into consideration. Especially where your daughter is concerned.

Don't allow the images (of him with someone else), to pull you back into this scene of abuse. He's showing that he is STILL manipulative and controlling, and that is how he's working it now. With threats.

Take care, Honey, and stay strong!! Don't let him use your softness and vulnerability against you, like he has so many times before. Whenever you feel weak, think of your daughter.

(((L2S)))

Jen

Bingo J8

I vote let him prove his worth before he is granted another shot.

You can't MAKE him be a good man...and you have to accept that the choice is HIS and he can make a choice that results in LOSS.

AMEN, Noodle! We are only in control of OURSELVES, and nobody else. As far as I see it, he's already made his choices, several times. And his "messages" have been loud and clear.

L2S, To he!! with "his" needs. It's time for YOUR'S and your DAUGHTER'S needs to be met. And it can't be done by this man. He can't even take care of himself, as far as even acknowledging his problems at the least, (of abuse) let alone take action. So YOU need to be the one to take the action concerning yourself and your child and your well being.

I don't know what life experiences have shaped him into the person he is today.

Here's what I do know:
1 - bad R w/mother
2 - 99.9% of his "serious" Rs have been w/older women, i.e. 1st wife 2 years older, 2nd wife 13 years older, I'm 6 years older, R w/co-worker who was 13 years older, OW of most recent affair is 11-12 years older
3 - cheated on first wife - his story is that he cheated out of revenge - other stories are that he cheated first
4 - cheated on me before our first anniversary because things weren't going "well". Didn't cheat on 2nd W that I know of; married only 1.5 years - D b/c of stepkid issues

He is very controlling. Examples are must put plastic bags on feet before walking on carpet. Must cover food in microwave before using. Must wash dishes before putting in dishwasher. Very nice nasty about food. Hates it when people scrape their teeth on a spoon or fork. All not necessarily bad but, all in one person is hard to deal w/at times.

Most people that I know don't like my H. They think he's a pompous jerk. My family can't stand him. My daughter wants nothing to do w/him which is of course a major problem to any reconciliation.

I'm so angry w/all that has gone on that his SF isn't even on my radar. For him to do all that he did (I believe in my gut that he has had 4 As since we separated: 1 w/2nd XW, 1 short-term w/lots of SF involved; 1 w/woman that would call him on phone and he would put on speaker phone for all to hear while she talked dirty to him and played w/herself; 1 that he fell in love with and still has contact w/her and her family.)

My family knows about the stuff he's done. He did some of it around a family member.

He continues to make nasty little comments and then doesn't understand when I get mad, hurt or snap back w/a jerky comment of my own. I try not to let him push my buttons but, he does stuff like calling me to let me know that he will be going to a store close to where I work so that I can be careful if I meet someone for lunch, etc. I have never met anyone for lunch and it makes me so angry when he does that. If I'm on the phone at work when he calls I'm automatically talking to my b/f. I've never talked to anyone at work or otherwise and have never had a b/f. Just jerky, nasty comments that really make me angry.

Anyway, I do not at all believe that he has not been w/anyone since March. I know he was w/OW in late April and probably in May as well. I really believe that he has been w/her since then. He is quick to point out that there are plenty of women that he could be w/if he wanted to but, he wants to be w/me. He told me that he had himself checked for STDs because he thought I was w/someone. I don't know if he really did or just said it b/c I admitted to him that I had been checked for same. I was clean. I haven't been w/anyone but him. He's been with God knows who.

I think if I gave him a written list of all I expected him to do in order for me to even consider reconciliation he would throw the list in my face.

In my gut I really believe that I could not be happy again w/him. I got past the first A on my own; no help from him. I moved beyond the pain and could eventually go for weeks w/o a thought of the A. Now, I don't know who he's been with; don't know who knows about all the As; don't know who he might be flirting with; so many don't knows to have to live with.

So...

What's keeping you in this marriage?

oh, THAT's bad. [edit: my bad; somehow forgot it from the first post summary <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ]
particularly the "you got over it on your own" part.

I also didnt think about the "bring up sex to control you" thing. that's a possibility i suppose.

but from the amount of sex he's been chasing, .. that you even KNOW about... i think he's mostly just being straight honest about his current need(addiction) for sex. Sure, he may also be using the truth to push your buttons.. but I do think it's the truth.


Then do it, let it happen, and proceed.
Somehow, though... I think that you have a teenietiny thought that he wont. and that's what's stopped you from doing it so far.

I don't think this man has any intention of giving up his active sex life with as many other women as he can conquer.

I completely agree with Jen68 that this man is using "have sex with me or I'll go elsewhere" as nothing but a blatant, bullying threat to get his wife back and keep her under control her by keeping this threat over her head every minute of every day.

L2S - with this man's very, very lengthy history, what on earth makes you think that even if you DID go back to having sex with you on a regular basis, he would suddenly go through a complete change of character and be faithful to you???

It seems obvious to me that he is just threatening you so he can go back to having a wife *and* all the girlfriends he wants. Please show us one thing that he has actually DONE - not said, but DONE - to make you think he is serious about having faithful marriage with you?
Mulan

First off, I have to remind you, that having an affair, is usually referred to as "an addiction" round these parts.
If we were to all follow your earlier post of, "if they are an addict, ditch them, they're untrustworthy!", then we should all just quit reading MB, and go get divorces.

no thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Secondly... sex is different from alchohol in one huge, crucial way:

you can reasonably be expected to NEVER touch alchohol again for the rest of your life, if you are an alchoholic.

However, it is totally unreasonable to expect someone to never have sex again. Sex is a crucial need. The tricky part is in making sure that need gets met in "good" ways.


The bible says that a person IS RESPONSIBLE for meeting their spouses sexual needs. However, IN TURN, the spouse is responsible for coming to that person , and only that person, and asking them to meet their sexual needs.

The bible goes even further, and implies that if you deliberately and wilfully reject your spouse for sex, then you are partly responsible for allowing the devil to tempt them. It doesnt neccessarily import sin-guilt on you. but it DOES explicitly say, that if you dont meet it, then they will be more vulnerable because of your choice.

as I said, it's a joint responsability.
they are supposed to come to you for their needs.. AND, you are supposed to do your best to meet them.



lastly, merging a buncha replies... I definately agree with your, "He needs to make a choice" post <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hopefully, just lay it on the line, he makes his choice, and there's no more fuzzy-grey-feeling. the path will be clear.

for what it's worth, lest people think i'm just a blind optimist <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I do think it is somewhat doubtful that he will be able to just change his behaviour at will. he has a very long nasty pattern of behaviour.

it's on him to convince you. and if he doesnt convince you... too bad for him. he should get out and stay out.

Techie you are mixing ENs with addictions

Not the same thing.

Also I did not say ditch all addicts. I said I can not shoulder the burden of their decision to recover from that addiction.

I can offer support..nothing more.

As for TRUE sex addiction..it has NOTHING to do with getting a need for sex met and EVERYTHING to do with mental illness and intimacy issues and therefore having sex..will not help or cure sex addiction.

If you have an abusive serial cheating sex addict and you WANT to recover then it is CRUCIAL that you require that person to fight their personal demons before you introduce recovery issues into the equation.

This is true of affair recovery as well...just fewer things standing in line aheaqd of dealing with marriage issues.

If that person is unwilling to meet these requirements BEFORE they require gratification I don't believe them to be sincere in their acceptance of their condition or their desire to reconcile.

Again, Techie, you are avoiding the issue of abuse. This, (abuse), should rate far more above the issue of sex.

I, for one, am GLAD that the issue of sex has fallen off of L2S's radar! That is one less burden she should have to carry in this disturbing situation! She owes him NOTHING!!! NADA!

Had to go out of town for work this weekend. Was supposed to be Sat and today but ended early and drove back last night.
Talked to H just after I got off (7pm) and he was supposed to call me back after he ate, supposedlly w/his S and brother. Didn't call me back until almost 10pm. He asked what I was doing and I told him I was back home.

That created an argument; why didn't you tell me you were off and headed back? What are you trying to hide? Got nastier and then I just put the phone on silent and went to bed. The last message he left was that he guessed I was tired b/c I drove 2.5 hours to get screwed and then had to drive back 2.5 hours so that I wouldn't get caught this time. I've never done anything like that in order to get caught...........but he did. (Guilty conscious speaking?) Then he said for me to take the papers to the attorney. Said he had been asking me to do that. Said I have been waiting for a reason to do it and he will give me a very good reason for filing (meaning seeing someone else).

He sent the usual messge about me going to church. He called this morning; I didn't answer then paged me 911 to call home. He kept asking which church service I was going to. When I kept saying I didn't know he got mad and hung up.

So, who knows why he was asking which service I was going to.

Oh well my usual Sunday.