Someone checked for him being home while I was out of town. Was told that he did not spend the night at our house Saturday night. Said he never showed up all day but, I know he was there Sunday morning b/c he called me from there around 8am; caller ID.

So, not sure what all this means and not sure why he was so insistent on finding out which church service I was going to. Never talked to him all day on Sunday. Did not talk w/him today yet but he left VM for me about some paperwork.

Not sure what he did/didn't do or what he has going on. Most importantly, not sure why I still care. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Told me this evening that he wants me to call the attorney and get a final set of papers to sign. Wants to pay me what he owes me and wants me out of his life. Doesn't want to me married to me anymore. Doesn't want to live the way I expect him to live anymore. Doesn't want me to have control over his life anymore.

I told him that he had changed nothing to make me want to make the M work. He still talks to OW. Still goes around her family. He then brought up the fact that I still go to church where OM goes. But, I told him, I didn't have an A. He treats me like dirt and still maintains contact w/OW (pleural).

So, he now wants a D. He goes back to saying that I told him that there was no hope so there was no reason for him to change anything.

Why do I care anymore?

And that is true. From a non-christian standpoint, he is justified (to some degree) in his behaviour. You told him there was no hope. very strongly, and repeatedly.

I think he is scum. I think he doesnt deserve to be married to you. I cant think why you ever married him.

But marrital commitments, arent about "you do for me, then I do for you". the bible calls us to unilateral duty.

You OWE HIM that list. Quit stalling :P

you dont "owe him" by payment of how he treated you so well. you "owe him" by virtue of you saying "i do", many years ago.

When you've giving him the list, and he says no, then you have done everything you could, and you will feel much better about things, walking away, knowing that you did.

and let me be clear/reiterate: the list should include everything you would need, to feel safe, and ok with yourself, in a marriage to him again.

if you cannot envision such conditions, then there is no point in writing the list.
But it sounds to me like there ARE conditions that would make you feel this way.. if he ever truely met them.

I think my biggest fear is that he would make the changes ............. for a season...............and then.............he would go back to his old ways.

People who've known him much longer than I have think that's what he would do: change to get me back and then go back to his old ways.

I may do the list just to see what he would say and, if I do, I will put into it EVERYTHING that I think would be important. I know what his first response is going to be though............... what are you willing to change?

If that is your fear then raise the bar.

Then whether he meets it..or not...is not your problem or your responsibility.

Raise the bar high enough...make it inconvenient and uncomfortable ENOUGH so that if he chooses to pursue recovery you have layed foundation for trust and belief that he is sincere.

He told me today that he has cried and begged and said he would do anything in the world to put our M back together but, I kept saying no. I kept saying that I couldn't get past all that he had done.

His statement is true. He did cry, threaten suicide, beg, say that I could put a GPS on his vehicle, he would record all his phone calls, he would call OW and her family and tell them to never contact him again. But, he never did any of it. He never did one single thing to make me believe that he was sincere. Every month when the cell phone bill came in he hid it or said he threw it away. So, I secretly went on line and printed it. Page after page of calls to XW, OW, OWs family, and other women that I found out about. Pages.

He never did anything to make me believe he was sincere. He talked alot about what he would do but never put any of it into action.

Today, he asked again about the papers. Said we need to go ahead because I'm not going to change. I told him that he has never changed anything to make me think there was a chance. He then said that he didn't intend to kiss my behind and allow me to control his life on the off chance that i might decide that I wanted him in my life.

I said fine. He then got mad and said that a D is all I want anyway so I can go be w/my BF. I don't have one, never did. Plus, if I wanted a D I could have had one years ago. Should have had one years ago. But I hung on. Earlier this year we started MC but I found out he was having another A so I cancelled the counseling; what's the point.

Anyway, that's where it stands. I'm supposed to take the papers tomorrow.

"He never did anything to make me believe he was sincere. He talked alot about what he would do but never put any of it into action."

Well, of course not. You never ASKED him to, in a way that was meaningful to him.
It is unreasonable of you to expect someone to undergo a radical course of action, unless you give them reason to expect a sufficient reward for their actions.

you did not provide such expectation.

please give him the list.

I disagree.

It has been my impression that people who ONLY make necessary and healthy changes in their lives because I am dangling a cookie over their head will 1) resent me for it and 2) only do it as long as they perceive the crisis to be imminent.

These are people who are EXPECTING that this is just a temporary situation and as such are likely to AGREE to any changes but make it YOUR responsibility to keep the heat on them and hold their hand and tie their shoes for them.

Think of it like those ridiculous parents who insist that their child is potty trained at 7 months...but really it is the PARENTS who are trained to be hyper vigilent and always plotting and planning to have that kid on the toilet when it's bowels happen to move. It puts the burden for HIS growth on YOU.

I would be willing based on the info you have provided that he is sincere in his assertion that her wants to remain in a relationship with you...it is not remotely clear or likely based on your descriptions that he recognizes that he has a problem or that he is interested in doing the hard personal work BECAUSE he recognizes the impact it has on his life and the lives of those in proximity to him.

The person whose efforts you can trust in terms of personal growth is the person who has NOT got any guarantee of reconciliation...I think if you put it in a you do this and I give you that format he will do the LEAST amount he thinks he can get away with before you drop the axe.

If I say anything about him changing his immediate response is "what are you going to change?" What he means is stop lying and stop going to church where I currently go.

The stop lying part - I learned early on that I would pay for honesty in my M. Not right but it was self preservation. I learned early on that anything I said would and could be used against me in the next fight, argument, disagreement, etc. I learned to keep my mouth shut. More recently I lied to him about some family stuff b/c the person who told me about the A and all the other stuff that went w/it swore me to secrecy or said he would not tell me anything else. So, I lied to protect that person.

Going to church - Service by service he stopped going about 4 years ago. Now, he blames it on my talking to the OM. But, I distinctly remember begging him on Sunday mornings to go to church w/me and my D. His response "You're not my mother and you don't tell me what to do". I finally told him that every Sunday morning I was going to church and I wanted him there but would not ask him to go anymore. He went very seldom after that.

He uses threat and intimidation to control me but accuses me of trying to control his life. I have zero control over him. I don't know who he talks to, where he goes, what he does whenever I'm not around which is 95% of the time; we are separated. He may not answer the house phone but answers the cell and says he's home and in the garage, etc. But, I have no way of knowing if that's true. I know many times that it wasn't true and he lied about where he was.

So, again, he has changed nothing to make me think there's any hope. And, I really believe that he would change only to the extent that it took to get me back in the house and would then go back to his old ways. I can't tolerate those. I have a D that is rapidly growing up and I don't want to waste the next precious years of her life by making her live under his unrealistic rules. He has repeatedly told me that I will pay for all he thinks I did wrong w/his kids.

So, I really don't think there's hope. I told him yesterday that it would take leaving women alone as a start. He said there's no reason to leave them alone if there's no hope of reconciliation. But, we've been separated x 2.5 years. He said I left him all alone and expected him not to talk to anyone. Guess there are no male friends that he could talk to. Where are his kids, his family? No, he has to have female friends. But, I can have no male friends. Go figure.

"What he means is stop lying and stop going to church where I currently go."

I think that in the context of MB, "dont cause suffering for your spouse"... you should not go there any more, if you were following MB principles.

"I told him yesterday that it would take leaving women alone as a start. He said there's no reason to leave them alone if there's no hope of reconciliation."

you are both right.
you are right; he needs to quit doing that.
he is right; he has no reason to do so, if all you keep saying is "there is no hope".

I think you're being kinda passive-aggressive about all this. you're approaching things in a way that would seem to ensure maxium possibility of rejection.
you're throwing little bits out, seeing how he reacts, and then saying "see, he reacted badly, there's no point in doing the whole thing".

Stop doing that.

Give him a full list.
Then ask for a list from him.

He apparently has needs that he doesnt feel that you are filling. (ie: "what are you going to change?")
Ask him to list what he would like you to change.

interesting thought, Noodle.

I understand what you're saying however, I just talked to him a few minutes ago.

He said the following:

You told me that I should stop talking to them (OW and XW) and you told me that I should tell them that I can have no further contact with them. But, they both know that there's no possibility of resuming a R with them because we've already talked about that so they would both look at me like I'm crazy if I told them that.

So, what he said was there's no need to tell them to back off because there's no chance of a romantic relationship with them. So, continuing to take their calls and continuing to call them is okay because he told them there's no chance for a physical R.

What? So, I can use that same rationale to say that there's no reason why I can't go to church. I never had a physical R w/the other guy. Never saw or talked to him outside of church. Can't remember when the last time I talked to him was.

Then, we still have the issue of the threats of suicide and the threats of him having another A if I don't resume a physical R w/him.

No, I don't believe I'm throwing bits to see his reaction. Him not talking to other women should be a given. His talking to them is a large part of the reason why we're where we are.

Well there's no doubt that you both rationalize your own bad behavior by route of the others foibles.

Quote:
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You told me that I should stop talking to them (OW and XW) and you told me that I should tell them that I can have no further contact with them. But, they both know that there's no possibility of resuming a R with them because we've already talked about that so they would both look at me like I'm crazy if I told them that.

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Translation...it is more important to me to protect my image than to protect my marriage.

Quote

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So, what he said was there's no need to tell them to back off because there's no chance of a romantic relationship with them. So, continuing to take their calls and continuing to call them is okay because he told them there's no chance for a physical R.

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Translation...So trust me blindly and get out of the way and stop making uncomfortable demands.



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What? So, I can use that same rationale to say that there's no reason why I can't go to church. I never had a physical R w/the other guy. Never saw or talked to him outside of church. Can't remember when the last time I talked to him was.
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Your own poor choices and behaviors are in no way excused by his...this is irrelevent and will go nowhere but a tit for tat circular arguament.

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Then, we still have the issue of the threats of suicide and the threats of him having another A if I don't resume a physical R w/him.
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This is manipulation/emotional blackmail plain and simple...but the manipulations of a person with big problems..something to consider n reconciliation.

Noodle has some excellent things to say. I will only add this:

During the months of fighting with my wife, before she moved out, I did and said some pretty drastic things.
I did them because I didnt know of any better way, that actually could produce positive results. i was desparate. I did whatever I thought could get me what I needed from my wife. I was horribly wrong in my choice of what to do... but at the time, there were no other choices known to me. I only found MB *after* she moved out.

Sometimes, bad behaviour is a result of someone not knowing better.
I'm not saying this is definately the case with your husband. I'm just offering it as a possibilty.
He may use threats the way he does, becuase either he doesnt know any better way, or he doesnt think any other way will have as big an effect on you.

Here's what I have:

1) I should be getting ready for church. Instead, I don't b/c if I do I have pure h*ll to pay. I'll get threats of exposure of my past or nasty stuff like get your sh*t out of my house, etc. Or, I may get the veiled threats of suicide.

2) I have an almost 10 year marriage that started off w/me lying about my past (my distant past of 23 years before I met him) to keep him which was preceeded by me having sex w/him before I wanted to b/c he said if I didn't he would have to find someone else b/c he couldn't do without. He pushed me into marriage. I did it but didn't want to. And no he couldn't do what I didn't allow but, again, I didn't want to lose him.

3) He had an A first year of marriage. I recovered on my own. He didn't change much. The reason we stayed together is b/c the OW ended up being a nut. If she had been a nice girl the story might have ended w/our D instead. Wish I had.

4) Major problems through the years w/kids. His son moved in and out of our house 11 times in 3 years. Some major manipulation there. Our lives were pure h*ll when he was there and when he wasn't.

5) I finally came clean on the "rest of the story" regarding my past. The result? He let his son, wife and new baby move in to our house. Reason - to save money for a place of their own but, son got $60K about 2.5 months later when he turned 18 (car accident settlement from when he was about 11). I was honest and he paid me back. I told him if he moved in I was moving out. I did and haven't moved back in since. That was 2.9 years ago.

6) Fast forward to separation: In the first few months he resumed a R w/his 2nd XW; I'm # 3. She wrote letters to him praying that we would D so she could have a second chance. Said she loved him and should never have let him go.

7) All this is interspersed with him telling me he loved me and wanting to work it out to cursing me out, threatening to tell all about my past, starting the physical abuse, etc.

8) I had finally had enough and asked for D. His response: the first "suicide" attempt. There have been about 8 since then. Major manipulation to make me back down and stop talking about D.

9) I believe w/everything in me that there have been at least four women that he has had a physical R w/since we separate, maybe as many as 6 including his XW. The last one he fell in love with. I'm not really sure what happened between them to end it and I know that he is still seeing her. Don't know about the physical part.

10) The name calling: I've been called a sl*t, wh*re, a B, and more that I won't mention more times than I care to remember. Not one time have I called him anything more than a jerk b/c he was acting like one.

So, this is what I have and I believe this is what I will get if I go back. He tells me that he loves me more than he has ever loved anyone but, I still have the OWs voice ringing in my ear as well as his from the tapes he didn't know I had running. I heard the same things being said to her. Heard that our M had been over a long time before I finally left. Heard him tell her that she made him happier than he had ever been,etc. I heard it all and then when he found out it was all just an elaborate "gotcha". It was all well rehearsed conversation to hurt me. No way. So, he is still lying about it all. I heard how easily lies rolled off his tongue; to me and to the OW. I heard it all.

So, it's not like we had a great marriage but he slipped, had a minor indiscretion. It has been bad almost from day one.

We have trust issues, affair issues, kid issues, verbal, emotional, physical abuse issues, sexual addiction (?) issues. He has called me a wh*re but, I figured out that the year I met him he had been with 3 other women before I met him (we met the end of June) and one of them was his 2nd XW.

This is what I'm dealing with.

it's interesting he didnt go back to his 2nd ex wife

Do you mean before we met or instead of the OW?

I only have his story but they D'd b/c of her treatment of his kids. He has told me two stories: one is that he D'd her and the other is that she D'd him.

Per him she made up w/his two kids when they started talking again after our separation; they are now both in their early 20s (20 and 22).

He says he couldn't get back w/her again b/c she smokes. That's supposed to make me feel better. But, I've heard those lies before. I used to believe everything he said but, after hearing him on the tapes, I now question everything he's ever told me.

And let's also remember what your daughter has gotten from all of this, too. I know you wouldn't ever wish this type of thing for her.

(((L2S))) Thinking of you!

Thanks Jen.

I really, really need all the prayers and positive thoughts I can get.

I believe with everything in me that I need to file but, I know without a doubt, that when I do, my life will be a living ******. He will make sure of it. That knowledge is a big part of what keeps me from moving forward.

He's already doing that, L2S. So please don't let that be your reason for hanging on, Hon. You and your daughter deserve to live a healthy and happy life. And whether you stay or go, he will ALWAYS make his attempts at controlling and manipulating you. At least with divorce, it would remove that element of "ownership" of you on his part. It's time for you to do what you have to do, for YOU, in order to lead a healthy and productive life for yourself and your daughter.

(((L2S))) Still praying and thinking of you!