Mike,

I'm with you, if you understand.

Continue to be strong.

Mike,
Wow I am about 1 month behind you on what is going on with my WW. My WW is having an EA online, and is currently angery with me because I wrote the OM and now he won't talk to her. She was sending him nude and partially nude pictures of herself.

She has now agreed to work on our marriage. But reading her Email she file DV this week. I have not been served but she told the MC that she was not going to file. Hmmm who do I believe? Alien 1 or alien 2?

I was confused about the 180 tactics until I read your whole story. Now I get it. I am the needy one that needs the hugs and the conversation. I am the one that is smothering her. I am the one that is causing her coldness. I just need to treat her like I don't care what she does anymore. I will do my own thing, take care of the kids, feed myself and the kids. Not worry about her.

My MC sort of told me the same thing. Back off, leave her alone, give her the space. I didn't know what this meant so I just did nothing. Now it is all coming together.

I am still snooping and will not stop. I need to know if there is more then one OM. Could be with an online romance. So we are in this at the same time with the same problems. Let us both work through this. Not sure I can provide you with insight but I am here to support you and see where it goes.

Ron

Mustang, thanks for your support.

Betrayed, I feel for ya, stay in there even when it seems hopeless. My WW started to get her head out of her @ss to see how destructive this is costing the entire family, but it only lasted a few days. During Thanksgiving, she was saying and doing disrespectful things. As a result, I LB a few times which I deeply regret but it did get her to stop her destructive demeaning manners.

She verbally agreed to work on our marriage to “her best ability” until end of March 2007. She asked that we put this agreement on paper and when end of March comes around she may elect to move out of our house with 50% custody and no interference from me as she may pursuit any friends she wants (meaning the OP). Give me some though on this agreement.

Don’t know if she’s going to use this as a way to tell friends and relatives that she did tried to work on our marriage and it didn’t work. I have to wait and see but it doesn’t look promising. The good part is that I do believe that she’s not having any contact with the other person. I’m hoping that this will buy me a little time for her to get over her withdraw and getting extra months of NC.

For heaven's sake, do not sign ANYTHING unless you have an attorney sitting right beside you. Repeat: Do not sign ANYTHING.
Mulan

I wouldn't agree to this. Tell her that putting limits on saving your marriage when so much has happened is not right. Recovery will take a long time and it certainly isn't going to happen by March after what she's done.

Go to your lawyer, tell him/her about this demand. Have a separation order drafted with the children being put on a freeze order that will have them stay in their home. Keep this in your back pocket just in case and have your lawyer ready to file it if necessary. Don't tell the W about it.

Tell her that your committment to your marriage was made when you swore before God, family, and a clergyman/judge that you were going to be there till death do you part. Signing another document diminishing that is not something you should do.

Expect her to throw fits. Expect her to threaten you and have her tell you that you're making this ugly and it will be ugly unless you agree to her terms. Expect it. It's coming and she will try to use your desire to save your M against you.

My exW told me exactly that when I told her I wouldn't give her a no-contest. She threw a fit and said I was simply going to make it hard and ugly and that there would be no chance for us to be back together unless I did it her way.

Guess what? I did it her way. I appeased and now find myself divorced without primary custody of my kids. I was left holding on to hope. The reality is that you are married and she will have to take the action to finish that. Don't give in to her rants, because they will come.

Lay the full burden of ending your marriage on her and drag your feet through every step of the process. Her demand is ludicrous and is simply a way of buying herself time to set things up legally. Someone truly interested in saving a marriage doesn't put artificial deadlines on it.

AMEN Mustang, she is interested in buying time to figure out her master plan and it doesn't include Mike.

Separate the divorce from your desire to restore your M. Divorce is ugly and best handled by your mean lawyer. He/she should represent your interests to a fault (financial, custody, etc). If she wants to talk D have her attorney talk to yours but make it clear that it will not be amicable, anything but. If she wants to talk M then she should talk to you and the two of you should get into counseling (only if she is in NC with OM).

It's almost a Dr. Jeykl and Mr. Hyde scenario. Divorce = the monster you; Marriage = the new , improved and committed you.

Her choice.

Here is my though about signing this document as long as there is N/C:

1. In my state, there is no legal separation and infidelity doesn’t do anything for custody. If she moved out, she will get 50/50 custody regardless. By the end of March, I’ll go into Plan B and have her move out anyway.
2. I’m buying time for her to get over her withdraw for the OP and for me to do more Plan A.
3. I’m not talking about DV; I’ll let the lawyers do that.
4. In this agreement, she’s asking for two things by end of March, 50% custody and for me to leave her alone.

I see more benefit than harm or am I just too stupid.

50/50.

Know why she wants this?

Because it makes her look like a reasonable, caring mother.

** It also gives her 50% of her time to pursue her affair.

It is the easiest way to get divorced from you, without you making it ugly.

** Because if it looks like an ugly divorce, then everyone now and in the future might find out what she did.


Personally -- I think the biggest impact you could have would be Plan B immediately. Get her out of the house, with limited visitation with the kids, and no promise of making things look "easy" or "nice."
Shatter her amicable divorce ploy.

She isn't working on anything, except trying to manipulate you into cooperating on the destruction of your family.

What Lexxy said. You are being railroaded into handing over everything and played up one side and down the other. You simply do not realize it because you see what you wish to see.

SIGN NOTHING!!!
Mulan

Mike,

I've been with you since the beginning. I told you not to repeat my mistakes. You are on the path to doing just that. Your emotions are clouding your judgement. If you sign this and agree to this with her you will lose. All she has to do is bide her time. As I told you earlier, have a separation order prepared by your lawyer. Have a freeze order made to keep the kids in the house.

If you do this, you WILL LOSE! Please believe me when I tell you this. This is manipulation to make things easy for herself. Believe us please!

All, thanks for your inputs.

I didn’t sign the agreement. We were supposed to sign it at MC last night but she didn’t like the idea of me putting into the agreement of spending undivided attention time to improve our marriage communication skills. I told her that we’re basically roommates since the agreement said that we’ll converse amicably with no guarantees and that I’ll not pursuit SF or affections. Without undivided attention time, that’s basically not working on our marriage; she claims being in the house and sleeping in the same bed with me is already too much for her to handle emotionally. So I told her that I’ll not sign something that basically not helping us on "working on our marriage".

What state are you guys from?? It all sound great when you guys are saying going into Plan B, get her out of the house and give her limited visitation to the kids but in my state’s legal system it’s next to impossible. First she would only leave the house with 50/50 custody secured. Second, she has been taking care of the children (D9, S6) as a SAHM since they were born; the court will not grant limited visitation for her. I should get 50/50 at best if we go to court; this has been confirmed by my lawyer.

Even if she does leave the house there is legal problem with separation order and freeze order for the kids, since my state has no legal separation there is no such thing as separation order. I could only delay the process with freeze order but it eventually could back fire on me. She could counter suit with a DV and will get the 50/50 as well as CS and temporary alimony which the court will grant her without a problem since she works part time and make less money than me. They may even get me kick out of my own house. I’m in a horrible state (NJ) for husband in a divorce even if the W committed adultery.

Really need more comments from you guys on my dilemma.

First of all -- your marriage counselor is terrible.
She is helping your wife negotiate a separation and divorce. She is NOT helping you restore your marriage.
I wouldn't waste my time or money on another session.

Here is what your wife needs to know: if she decides to proceed with a separation you will tell everyone who asks that she was having an affair. The children will also know why mommy and daddy aren't together anymore (age appropriate, but the truth nevertheless.)
She will not be protected.

You will not make this easy for her. You won't be friends later. You won't even speak to her.

That is what she needs to know while making the decision to break up the family -- that she will forever be the bad guy.

Now the reality of living in NJ might mean that you'll end up with 50/50 custody, and having to pay alimony (not child support though -- if you have them equally...)
But don't let her think its going to be easy or friendly!
Start pushing for her to get a full time job. Don't be a doormat. Stand up for yourself.

Mike, you shouldn't sign anything. All this is a manipulative ploy to dump you in 6 months and boot you out of the house. She is hoping that you fall for this ruse by putting in a time frame in the hopes that you won't cause any fuss and will go down easy. You are falling for it.

She has no intention of working on your marriage at all, you can plainly see that. She didn't like the idea of spending time with you, because she has no intention of BEING with you when she gives the boot in 6 months. All you are doing by agreeing to this is giving her permission to give you the boot in 6 months, and you will take it without protest.

Thats a chumps deal, Mike, when you could have a marriage and an intact family by refusing to go along with ANY seperation deal at all. By making it clear that you will never go down easy, you will make it so hard on her that she will have second thoughts. That will buy you the time you need.

When we say don't talk divorce with her, we mean seperation too. Seperations will not help your marriage. Only a sincere committment to working on the marriage, and she has no reason to do that if she believes she can give you the boot, without your protest, in 6 months. Heck, she can keep you around to take out the trash and put up the tree in the meantime. What a great deal if you are trying to dump your H with as little fuss as possible!

Again, what Lexxy said. Ditto.

When it's not possible to Plan B because the WS won't leave, the next best option is the 180. You may have already seen this, but just in case:

THE 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow spouse around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what spouse will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with yur spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 5% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes

Lexxxy, NJ’s CS is calculating by the total net income divided by 2. I made 3 times as much as W so I will have to pay her. Don’t know how to push WW to get a full time job if she know she don’t have to.

I have already told my children of WW’s sin, I feel so bad when I told them. They are so young (D9/S6) to have this being told about their mother. She knows if she leaves the house, I will not hesitate in telling everyone who wants to know about her misdeed. People that have an affect on her are already know so there is not too many people to expose to, maybe some distant friends and relatives but that’ll appear revengeful to others. She knows I wouldn’t make it easy for her, separation/DV.

MelodyLane, I just want to get this straight, it’s WW’s intention for her to leave the house and “find herself” (pursuit her adultery). She knows that I will not leave the house or the kids. I think she just want to secure her 50/50 custody and for me to leave her alone during the separation with this agreement.

Mulan, Thanks, I know about 180 but I want to do more Plan A because after last night I think she may leave the house after the New Year. I don’t have anything in her love bank right now.

Mike,
I'd stop negotiating with her. What is it really gaining you? Stop participating in this.

Let her come up with her plan to leave. Let her do the work. You simply respond when you legally have no other choice.

IMO, some detachment is needed on your part. You can't force Plan A on her -- she doesn't seem receptive to you.
You can continue Plan A behaviors, which will sink in. But I would stop trying to directly do things for her. Let her benefit from your Plan A indirectly. Things she will miss when she leaves. (fixing things, cleaning, etc.)

She's running away. And she's going to crash and burn. But I don't think anything you do for the next month is going to make any difference. Its not going to stop her from leaving. (my opinion...)

She's not working on the marriage -- she's working on her exit strategy. She's ****** bent on getting out -- probably to pursue this man who has cut her off while you are in the picture. She thinks if she leaves, she is then "available" and he will change his mind.

I wouldn't bother with another counseling session -- your MC is simply helping her negotiate within the context of counseling. Really -- what have you gotten from it?
Other than your wife being able to tell everyone how hard she tried to fix the marriage?

Lexxxy,

You’re right on with your comments. I started 180 while doing Plan A indirectly as well; thanks for confirming my long and lonely path. I got the message from all of you about stop negotiating with WW and I’m glad that I didn’t sign the agreement. The idea of the agreement or the separation was not suggested by our MC, WW basically handed her the agreement at the time and wanted her to be the judge/witness to it. We, the counselor and I were stupid enough to almost go along with it. The counselor does help us in communication skills; I think I’ll keep her for now.

I also want to give you a little history on my MC; she is a recovered WW 15 years ago, she said until she separated from her then BH that is when the fog finally lifted. She realized that her BH is the person she was in love with and went back to him which he took her back. I think this is why she doesn’t thing separation is a bad thing considered what she sees in our situation.

miketc,

From all that I have read it seems that the many here and elsewhere see a separation as the beginning of the end of the M. Simply letting the M die instead of working on it. Also for a WS it can simply mean "I want to have my space so I can go out and work on my relationship with the OP without interference from you". Which of course is out of the question.

IMHO No agreement which would allow either of these two options is acceptable.


Just my thought.....

Why not ask her how she's planning on supporting herself financially when she moves out, because you WILL NOT be paying her bills.

Your MC may have been "Plan B'd" by her husband, and *that* was what brought her out of her fog. Plan B is quite different from an agreed-upon separation. Do not let the MC mislead you on that, as she has already tried to do.
Mulan