LA,

“Yes, Aph...I know why...Because I chose to be.”

Did you know this at the time? I mean, yes you know with 20/20 hindsight you chose, but what did you know about your choices then?

I ask this thinking that I know when I am choosing, or failing to choose for that matter. But does someone just headlong acting out to one degree or another know they have choices? Is society’s disapproval of (or tacit approval of, for that matter) adultery affect one’s ability to choose what is best of oneself and for other people that rely on you?


“I was a narcissist, as defined in Slick50's thread from Slimjim's post.”

Interesting thread. I just scanned it. Thanks.


“No one made me cheat. I did that. I chose fantasy over reality as a way to manage my feelings.”

But did you? Choose I mean. Or, did you fail to choose? Drifting? Obviously you did not keep your vows and serious promises you made. But was that a choice or was it you did not believe those promises counted for anything in the first place? Living according to this much earlier choice.


“My father was a serial cheater, also. He didn't make me be one...just didn't know there were those who chose not to. Didn't know it was a choice at all.”

See! Choosing is often not so clear, at the time anyway. One often has no idea they are choosing at all. They are just living the way they are. Blindly, in a way. Or at the very least, refusing to see.


“I took Biomedical Ethics in college and what I learned was that we develop our own...and somehow, didn't learn about boundaries, standards or developing our own code to live by. Instead, it was focused on group rights versus individual rights. I don't know how I passed that class.”

I am not sure what you are saying here. Ethics are not made up by individuals on the fly nor are they simply an individual code to live by. Group rights vs. individual rights are not ethics either. Ethics is a way to establish proper choices and actions. Not force gulfs among groups.

Makes me nervous to think Bioethicists like this are deciding what rights I have over my organs, whether I still have use for them or not, Lol.


“My morals were to hurt someone was unforgivable; someone hurting me was unforgivable. When there is no forgiveness, I had a license to do anything.”

Good observation. In my case such morals would likely result in total paralysis though.


“I thought I was defective, bad and wrong...strived constantly to fill my holes from the outside, when the only sufficient nutrients were already on the inside, but I didn't look. And I had to see where I created those holes and where others had...half and half...and take away my shovels.”

Reminds me of the old saying: when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is put down the shovel.

But I wonder if you did think yourself defective. That may be hindsight again. I see no awareness of personal defects in active WS. Instead, they think everyone who does not agree with their actions is defective.


“Loved the filled up feeling, which was fleeting...hated the consequences...but then, my way was to self-punish, harder, deeper, to protect me from myself...which led me to feeling like dirt, and seeking another to fill the hole...again and again. It is a horrible way to live.”

This sounds like textbook addiction. To the feelings, obviously. But I have wondered for a long time what the feelings really are? Is it a particular EN (like admiration or SF or conversation)? Or is it a need for something else entirely. Or is it a fear of boredom in the final analysis. I still do not know in FWW case.


“You think that cheating isn't human? That we don't use fantasy (Oh, he picked up my glass, he must love me) isn't in use 24/7? Humans are so complicated, webbed, layered...takes a lifetime to understand self, I think, alone. Takes longer when you only look at others instead of self for most of your life.”

It obviously is human, since humans do it.

But I have never cheated. Not even when blatantly tempted with uncatchable offers, and FWW not meeting any of my ENs for the decade of her VLTA (and for a long time before it started) to boot.

Does that make me inhuman?


“Cheating stops when you know it's your choice and yours alone. Period. That's when I found my power, my limit and freedom from all the spirals, cycles and dances...with my DH. And he's an SA.”

I find myself suddenly wondering if your H was one of your OM. Is he sort of an unconscious self-punishment?


Anyway, thanks for your insight. But I'm still ignorant.

With prayers,

Hey WB!

I was looking at Harleys the other day and thought of you.

Almost saved up. Getting close.

See you in Sturgis.

Yeah...I was off work last week and told a "lady friend" riding in the mountains of West Virginia....it was again great, but also found myself trying not to ride or visit at some of the places my X wife and I had been.

As for the EX she and I really spent a ton of time together riding....but it was also nice seeing someone else enjoy theirself and my company.

And it will get better and better, I predict.

You have been through a lot. For a long time.

Give yourself time to decompress and heal. Ride into the sunrise all you want with anyone you like.

Can't wait to start myself.

With prayers,

ed: Ever ridden in the SW? Or upper plains states? It's so open your awareness is a good mile ahead of your body. When I was in HS and college I used to ride blue highways for hours without seeing another car.

edd: Read Blue Highways . I think it will touch you WB.

Aph,

"Did you know this at the time? I mean, yes you know with 20/20 hindsight you chose, but what did you know about your choices then?"

Oh, absolutely not! I sooo didn't know...I believed others made me do, feel, think and believe everything. LOL. I'm turning red. It is true, though. I was raised to believe I was so powerful I made everyone else and so, they made me, too.

About society...I saw my Dad do these things and not have consequences that I could see...his society didn't disapprove. I saw what I believed was harmful and hurtful be okay for guys and not for gals...my own childish perception...so reality was this was okay, though like many, many things grownups said, they denied they would ever do it...even while they were doing it. So I got that unreality thing going early. It's okay to do if you say you're not.

"But did you? Choose I mean. Or, did you fail to choose? Drifting? Obviously you did not keep your vows and serious promises you made. But was that a choice or was it you did not believe those promises counted for anything in the first place? Living according to this much earlier choice."

I did not consciously choose...I chose, nonetheless. See, I don't believe we can fail to choose. Choice is inherent. I actually was so bemused that when I made my vows to be faithful for all the days of our lives...I did think that reserved the nights, just in case. I swear. That was conscious. However, I didn't link the other vows into it...that being unfaithful was not loving, cherishing and honoring my DH or the marriage...conveniently not thought of...only the fidelity part...and I believed at the time I was covered, too, because I told my DH how I couldn't imagine myself being with one man the rest of my life.

And I thought when he said he had no problem being faithful, that he was lying. When we lie to ourselves, well, we do that with each other, too...see what he thought of as faithful (permission to cheat) wasn't what other BS's here believe...and that changed...I didn't.

Like many here, the vows did not cover EA's in my mind...now I see where they clearly do. When you're that far out of touch with reality, stretches are easy.

"See! Choosing is often not so clear, at the time anyway. One often has no idea they are choosing at all. They are just living the way they are. Blindly, in a way. Or at the very least, refusing to see."

EXACTLY!! No excuse or reason...just the given behind what I chose at the time...not knowing I was choosing. Blindly, deafly and harmfully...I considered myself a human wrecking ball, responsible for everyone's pain but my own. And yes, refusing to see is the fog of lying to myself so well for so long, I couldn't tell what truth was, had I ever known it?

"I am not sure what you are saying here. Ethics are not made up by individuals on the fly nor are they simply an individual code to live by. Group rights vs. individual rights are not ethics either. Ethics is a way to establish proper choices and actions. Not force gulfs among groups.

Makes me nervous to think Bioethicists like this are deciding what rights I have over my organs, whether I still have use for them or not, Lol."

Be very afraid. LOL. This was 23 years ago...I would love to know what you mean...I thought ethics were standards people shared from their beliefs...like-minded...and apparently, I'm way off. Share with me, 'k? And here we go to "proper choices and actions" because who defines what is proper?

This may be exactly where I misinterpreted the class, huh?

"Good observation. In my case such morals would likely result in total paralysis though." What do you mean?

"Reminds me of the old saying: when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is put down the shovel."

Old saying? That's a GREAT saying!! I love it...glad I it's new to me now...thank you for passing it on.

"But I wonder if you did think yourself defective. That may be hindsight again. I see no awareness of personal defects in active WS. Instead, they think everyone who does not agree with their actions is defective."

No, this contains no hindsight. I KNEW I was defective...not unknown for adoptees...the not-wanteds. And if you believe you are defective, you will definitely see others that way.

I see WS as closest to their inner child...making decisions from their wishful 2, 3 and 4-year-old selves. Not great thinking, but strong feelings.

Which means I lived more in how I wanted life to be, rather than in how it was...tons of shoulds and shouldn'ts.

"But I have wondered for a long time what the feelings really are? Is it a particular EN (like admiration or SF or conversation)? Or is it a need for something else entirely. Or is it a fear of boredom in the final analysis. I still do not know in FWW case."

Emotional management 101...my feelings came in from the outside...manage the outside (manipulate) so I can feel what I want to feel and not feel what I don't. So, I feel defective, I'm gonna find me someone who will say I'm perfect (which usually includes those who are a mess and their experience sees you as less of a mess than you really are)...this goes to admiration, acceptance, what passes for cherishing, definite acceptance and approval. Lots of ENs...however, takes them NOT knowing who I really was to pull it off...so you get that "the closer you get, the further from what you want" thing going. Not real. Not intimacy. All fantasy...contrived fantasy.

Which is why A's fail.

"But I have never cheated. Not even when blatantly tempted with uncatchable offers, and FWW not meeting any of my ENs for the decade of her VLTA (and for a long time before it started) to boot.

Does that make me inhuman?"

I have never sung opera...does that make me inhuman? Humans sing. Humans sing opera. I haven't.

Tell me how you chose not to resent, which would have fueled entitlement, and if you chose to respect yourself, then you wouldn't have lacked...entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. You didn't allow those ingredients to perk, simmer and harden into justifying breaking yourself in two out of revenge for her not meeting your needs, not filling you up...because you knew who you were, that she didn't define you? You had a sense of choice, self, and a commitment to live in reality, not fantasy?

That you wouldn't be able to live with yourself, with that loss of integrity and self-respect, if you chose to cheat. Takes a sense of self, knowledge of respect and not hating yourself or believing you're defective, right? Otherwise...no loss.

Which is admirable and I greatly esteem those who do not cheat. Who choose to live in reality and to not harm themselves to teach themselves what they shouldn't do, shouldn't be. Which means they won't justify harming others to get what they believe they need, either.

I don't believe it is about temptation...but routine. What our emotional habits are in other areas, permeates our whole...if you give permission to yourself to cheat on your taxes, through justifications, then you've given yourself permission to justify...and it goes on from there. When we compartmentalize, we don't see the base permissions...only situational ones...and we are whole beings...

No, DH wasn't one of my OM...we were both single, never been married, when we met and began dating. All my OMs were single, completely...mostly all never-marrieds, too...and no current girlfriends. I know we were drawn to each other for unhealthy reasons and healthy ones...mostly unhealthy...two humans making it through life, together...and now, faithfully...fulfilled and faithful...thanks to God, MB and other humans who gave a hoot.

Humans are complicated; why wouldn't their journeys be so?

LA

LA,

Finally saw this. Thanks for the reply. Been busy - not much time today either. But I have a few thoughts echoing around in my head I want to put down on paper while I have the chance.

“I saw my Dad do these things and not have consequences that I could see...his society didn't disapprove. I saw what I believed was harmful and hurtful be okay for guys and not for gals...my own childish perception...so reality was this was okay, though like many, many things grownups said, they denied they would ever do it...even while they were doing it. So I got that unreality thing going early. It's okay to do if you say you're not.”

This is a concern for me. DS may be getting the same picture from all this. I would hate for him to think it’s OK to commit adultery because his mom did it and basically got away with it in the end. Or, to not think about the lessons in this at all. There have been no consequences he can see, anyway. Any ideas on how to prevent DS from learning the same lessons you did?


“I actually was so bemused that when I made my vows to be faithful for all the days of our lives...I did think that reserved the nights, just in case. I swear. That was conscious.”

This would be funny, if it wasn’t so sad.


“And yes, refusing to see is the fog of lying to myself so well for so long, I couldn't tell what truth was, had I ever known it?”

IMO this applies just the same to LTAs. Maybe only one OP, but the lying to self until you not only believe but become what you are doing is required. Else insanity?


“I thought ethics were standards people shared from their beliefs...like-minded...and apparently, I'm way off. Share with me, 'k? And here we go to "proper choices and actions" because who defines what is proper?”

Big post required. Later, OK? In the meantime:

Ethics (from the Ancient Greek "ethikos", meaning "arising from habit"), a major branch of philosophy, is the study of value or quality. It covers the analysis and employment of concepts such as right, wrong, good, evil, and responsibility. It is divided into three primary areas: meta-ethics (the study of what ethicality is), normative ethics (the study of what ethical truths there are and how they are known), and applied ethics (the study of the use of ethical knowledge).

And: http://ethics.acusd.edu/index.asp .

Problems and misunderstandings and mistakes, the reason we have philosophers in the first place, is the big divide between theory and practice.


"'Good observation. In my case such morals would likely result in total paralysis though.' What do you mean?"

I know me. If everything was unforgivable (implying certain retribution) I would be afraid to do anything I could not foresee in great detail. And I know I woudl be too busy retributing to live my life.


“Tell me how you chose not to resent, which would have fueled entitlement, and if you chose to respect yourself, then you wouldn't have lacked...entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. You didn't allow those ingredients to perk, simmer and harden into justifying breaking yourself in two out of revenge for her not meeting your needs, not filling you up...because you knew who you were, that she didn't define you? You had a sense of choice, self, and a commitment to live in reality, not fantasy?

That you wouldn't be able to live with yourself, with that loss of integrity and self-respect, if you chose to cheat. Takes a sense of self, knowledge of respect and not hating yourself or believing you're defective, right? Otherwise...no loss.

Which is admirable and I greatly esteem those who do not cheat. Who choose to live in reality and to not harm themselves to teach themselves what they shouldn't do, shouldn't be. Which means they won't justify harming others to get what they believe they need, either.

I don't believe it is about temptation...but routine. What our emotional habits are in other areas, permeates our whole...if you give permission to yourself to cheat on your taxes, through justifications, then you've given yourself permission to justify...and it goes on from there. When we compartmentalize, we don't see the base permissions...only situational ones...and we are whole beings...”

Later… ‘nuther Big Post. Maybe even A Thread.


With prayers,

I'm glad you saw it, Aph!

"Any ideas on how to prevent DS from learning the same lessons you did?"

Honesty, I believe, goes a long way...we share stories with our kids all the time...like little parables, sharing how and what we learn...why not this? How old DS? Can you make it age appropriate? Or be open to questions as he grows? I don't know your story, so I don't understand how you perceive your wife getting away with anything...if you divorced, that's the consequence...if you reconciled, I'm sure he picked up on a lot of consequences...the turmoil of anger, pain, tears, hugs, desperate whispers and cherished looks...or you may be in the process of that. Kids notice through emotions...it's what they are tuned into.

I totally agree about my duplistic vows...and remain ashamed of that. Grieving who I was is an ongoing process. This is part of it...to share honestly, without omission, to own all that I did and not hide from myself or others.

I have since revowed to my DH to be faithful, loving, kind, respectful and committed for as long as we both shall live. No loopholes there.

Insanity or Consciousness?

See, in a LTA, I can't help but wonder...beginning an A with that clean slate...over time...it gets just as muddied as the marital one...so there is pressure to look inward, I would think...to wake up...because it's no solution...reeks more of fantasy than ever, doesn't it? I dunno. I used fantasy in my head all the time, but not the same one! Couldn't...couldn't get that clean slate if reality seeped into any part of it...and time is our reality bearer, I think.

Thank you VERY much for the link--very helpful. I'm going to study up to understand better.

I don't mind waiting...and maybe another thread would be better?

I appreciate your help.

LA