Wow, Lizzie...

Think of it...he went cold turkey. WOW.

Nothing since.

Can you rethink what you asked him that weekend and his answer? To YOU (and most sane, nonaddicted, justifying maniacs), how long has it been over means all contact...to WS, it means when was your last hookup, or happy time, or when you felt on top of the world together...anything BUT your reasonable question...that mindset didn't hurt you with a worse lie...he was living a lie to himself at the time...he's stopping that now.

Your love bank withdrawal...what, anger? Pain? Fear? (Your job to know it) is coming from your choice to believe he lied. If you can own your part of the assumption in your question (which again, wasn't a big ol' DJ, just didn't aid the communication and back then, that really wasn't your goal, as I recall), you will find where sharing how you define your question equally with the response will give you more balanced emotions...clearer information.

Your fear of his lying now is huge. Naturally. Understandably...to balance your perspective, you're noting his unstated transparency--and you checked...that's like a gift exchange to me. And you found out he went cold turkey, and that he was lying to you before...and to himself.

Which you already knew.

You really got the addiction part, too...brought all the way home...how shaming and demeaning, the urge...not to really connect, but to sustain the fantasy...which fails.

How about starting up that addiction between you...calls, notes, touches...being delighted to hear his voice and stating that...?

You are who is has always loved...like we are as parents, loved enough to be pushed against, strong enough to not push back...deeper trust, love and intimacy than AP's can ever know.

How's your O&H? Are you going to share, "I looked at your password and user list. I found out you have had no contact with OW and how much you had previously. I thought about my question to you about when it was over, and I recalled your answer was...to me, it wasn't. I'm astonished and feel gratitude how you have truly gone no contact. Thank you for leaving out your list."

Whether he does his assignments or is open...YOU be O&H, do your stuff...share your stuff...that will contradict his experience as a child with his stepfather. Living in truth is your commitment to yourself, your marriage and your life. Focus slips...know the signals...resentment, pain and anger are great signals to know.

Would you also consider the child within us as the urge to sweep under the rug? Remember the shame as a child when we'd been caught doing something wrong, even when we didn't know, and wanting to hide our transgressions, our errors? Literally...the cookie under the mattress (with chocolate residue around our mouthes where the words "No I didn't" came out)...once, I wanted desperately to run away when I was 8 years old, and I packed my little suitcase, smart enough to include bread, ham and cheese, and hid it under my bed until nightfall...and during those few hours, the fight with my sister abated, as did my anger and outrage...and life went on...until the smell from that suitcase alerted my family to what I had hidden, which were like my feelings and thoughts, and I felt shame, two months later, upon discovery.

Sharing is radical honesty with ownership. Please do this Lizzie...I want to hear your words, not his...I want to know you're doing the drivebys because that's who you really are, not attempting to get him to do or say anything.

Personal recovery doesn't depend on him...that's you. For you, by you...and this is where the hard part comes in...because you were ready to do this without him, had made progress, and he's back, and you have to still personally recovery with him in the marriage, now. Which is where the most growth lies...more than you could have done on your own...recovering within the relationship as you actually recover the relationship.

I have no doubt you are able and willing...I don't doubt you can focus this much, recenter, respect and thrive...YOUR own doubts is what I'd like to address.

And if it aids you in committing to this focus, your sons will have a better chance to thrive if you do this. I've seen miracles, woman...I really have. I can't undo it...God's given our family the grace to learn through the repair far more than we thought possible...making this a full-family intimacy exercise with unbelievable dividends.

LA

LA,

As usual, your words bring me much needed perspective. Thank you.

I left work this morning after reading your post and felt really good. This is a choice I am making. I thought about telling my H about checking his accounts, but we didn't have much time together this morning. He had a lot of errands to run today and I needed to sleep, as I was working again tonight.

After he left, I checked the computer. I found that he had visited an email account that he had not told me about. It seems that account is used exclusively for these "groups" that he belongs do - all of them pornographic in nature (swingers, threesomes, etc..YUCK). I dug around for quite a while. It seems he has not sent any messages to anyone, has only received messages that are sent in bulk, and according to the keylogger, looks at the pictures posted there.

Not sure what to do, or if I need to do anything. I don't want him to know about the keylogger yet. I want to watch for a little bit more. Of course, my initial thought was to react and confront him, but (yeah for me), I didn't.

I also found a MySpace account that he created last February (when he was soooo much in love with OW), but there is not much to it. He last logged on 10-16.

I'll see what Steve Harley says on Wednesday. Anyone have any thoughts?

LA did a GREAT job -

As far as your H.....
Anyone have any thoughts?

I think you already know what you will do.
I bet you will watch, and wait.

All other efforts can continue.

My guess is that Steve will try to bring him to live the four rules just as fast as he (H) can take the improvement.

It took my W 25 years to get me to that point. (HINT, HINT)

As nearly as I can tell, men in general take longer to figure out these kinds of things. (and please note, I don't mean all men, some are kind, sensitive, and much smarter than I am.)

My Daughter, SIL, and grand daughter came to visit. They say Grand kids are the reward you get for not killing your kids.
Might be some truth to that. I probably should go, because Maddie (GD) is pulling on my leg.

Lizzie - You are on the right track. Your H has a lot to learn. I wish he was doing better, but he has a long way to go - and we know it.

Lets see where the next few months lead your efforts.

Smile some more. Rest your face a little.
We'll be here.

SS

Have been doing well. Very busy at home and at work. Not much time to post.

LA, I took your advice and let H know that I checked his phone records and pretty much said what you wrote verbatim.

I was kind of disappointed when by Tuesday night my H had not done his assignment because I had my appointment with Steve Harley on Wednesday. But, I didn't show it and eventually realized that I was disappointed because I had expectations and interpreted my H's actions as a failure to care.

We went to bed and around midnight he said , "I'm sorry I'm always so last minute, but I need to do my assignment". We talked until almost 2:30 AM. I asked questions, he answered, and he disclosed. He did tell me a glossed over version of the internet porn groups but didn't say that he still had that email address. He is still very unhappy about doing counseling even though I think it is helping.

I did a good job of listening and repeating and thanked him for sharing with me. He even said at one point "I don't see how I'm supposed to talk to my wife about how I feel about another woman", but he did. He still loves her, and if she had left her husband, he would be with her.

A bitter pill to swallow.

The A wasn't all roses. Throughout the summer, their contact was mostly via the phone. H trying to reach her and waiting for her to call him back. He could hardly ever see her because "OWH wouldn't let her out of his sight". I asked why not. He said that OWH didn't trust OW. Ya think???? So the love bank went kind of dry I guess.

And I learned a lot about what his emotional needs are and how their relationship escalated into an A.

His appointment was today. He called and told me he had it. I asked how it went. He said "OK, I guess. You know I'm not big on this whole counseling thing." I said, "I know. But it helps me to heal and I really appreciate you doing it".

So that's where we are. I'll try to catch up on everyone this weekend.

I want to grab him by the neck, and shake him and say "Why can't you get this stuff !!!"

Oh no, wait......... that's your job. I wouldn't want to have all the fun, you should have some too.

The chemicals that we call Love/infatuation really had a grip on him.

You didn't take it personal............ right?
Right?

Ok, it's almost impossible not too. Do think about it some more.
I think you'll realize that addicts do crave their drug, and that's what this was for him.

We need to figure out if we have the patience to see them through to the end of their addiction, and stay with them........... or leave them and let them deal with it themselves.

I know you know - but reviews are good sometimes.

Good to hear from you. You sound OK. Actually........... you sound a little better than OK, considering how slowly this is going.

Our home depot here is having a sale on Patience. Is your's too? Stock up now, while it's on sale. It may be more expensive later on. Get the 5 gal bucket size, it's cheaper in the long run.

SS

Grab him around the neck? I'm gonna grab LIZZIE around the neck...

With garlands of flowers and spices...and a wreath for her beautiful head!!!!

Ohmygosh, Lizzie...you did it...you heard, repeated...you were safe...and brave...and true...and uh, did you have a hopper on your head to filter his stuff so it didn't come into your brain as The Truth...just his?

I wanna strike up the band and waltz you around the pavilion, woman. Super great awesome tremendous choice to do that...you are worth your weight in rubies...beyond anything the OW could imagine...

Shine, Lizzie, shine!

And he did his assignment...and he was brave in a bizarre way and you noticed his bravery. Kudos to you on that, as well. Believe me, you blew him away. Far away. That's what my DH says now...I get admiration deposits for doing what you did...after withdrawal...and your WH isn't out of withdrawal.

Injecting respect frees you from his stuff...on the other side, it's worth the painful price...freedom usually is.

How's your own love bank doing? Did you notice a big deposit from your own loving listening? Respect for self? Check your levels and lemme know if you need oil.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm not as funny as SS...just care as much.

Which is HUGE.

I look forward to your update...wanna know about how your sons are handling this, how your boundaries are, and all your own stuff...

How did your appt go?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lizzie!}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

LA

It's been another very busy week.

Every year at Thanksgiving, I take a mental inventory and review the many things I have to be thankful for.

One of those things this year is MB and everyone here. I have gained so much from the people who post to me and others whose posts I follow. There have been many dark times over this past year that you guys have helped me through. And WAT, if you're out there lurking, this means you too!

Boys are still struggling with all of this. Older son is still really angry. Youngest son runs hot and cold. I am trying to stay on top of my emotions, because they swing from one extreme to another. I have spent the last couple of days holding on to some resentment - feeling like second choice, feeling suspicious, feeling angry - and then I come here and read and it puts things back in perspective for me.

One day at a time. I'm doing it.

Hey, Lizzie.

Wow, reading your thread feels like reading my own diary! The resentment, suspicion, second-choice feelings really can come on strong sometimes.

Wonder when we get past that part?

I'm right there with ya .... our timelines seem to be really similar. One thig that's surprised me so much to learn around here is that the A's really do follow a pretty set pattern!

Now I'm just hoping that our pattern keeps going down the path that Mimi and LA and Kimmi and all the other recovered and sickeningly happy folks around here followed!

-AmI.

i just want to say those were MY FEELINGS that you've steal.

i can so relate.

((((lizzie))))

If i get you to hang in there then i probably will too.

Just need to take it one day at a time.

Hello -

I see you get to cope with real life just like the rest of us.

I am trying to stay on top of my emotions, because they swing from one extreme to another. I have spent the last couple of days holding on to some resentment - feeling like second choice, feeling suspicious, feeling angry - and then I come here and read and it puts things back in perspective for me.

The feelings you have are natural. What's important is what you do with the feelings. You can react to them (but it looks like you are not doing that.) Or you can see them for what they are, and ACT in ways you know will help you reach your goals.

Isn't it wonderful that we can change our situation in life by our attitude to the problems we face. You have probably noticed that when faced with problems, some sink, but some rise above their troubles, and live a full and happy life anyway. I judge that you will be in the latter group.

One day at a time. I'm doing it.

I read that, and I nodded my head - Yep, she is. WAT was right, class always shows it self in the end.

Here's to happiness - and life well lived.

SS

Any BS will testify to the fact that you learn patience, Compassion and a strenght of character that you never knew you had. We age in wisdom exponentialy(sp?) because of,not the A visited upon us, but our mature response to them.

You are special, You have passed this challenge given to you by life.

Now....what will you do with your gift? Beat your H with it or be an example for your children and children's children?

You dont have to say anything..people will know, More importantly ..............Your H knows.

Go with God Lizzie.

One day at a time.

"Beat your H with it "

Sometimes this options sounds much more fun!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SLAP HIM SILLY THEN GUT HIM!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (insert sigh of stress relief)

back to reality.

just kidding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Feeling really crappy today.

And emotional.

And hopeless.

Had a really bad night at work last night. Young couple, tried to get pregnant for 3 years, finally successful with infertility drugs. Baby due early January. I met them a few weeks ago as we have been monitoring them to make sure everything is alright.

I arrived at work last night to find that she had been admitted earlier in the day. Baby had died in utero. She was there to be induced for delivery.

Heartwrenching, painful, exhausting. Last night I didn't like my job very much. A daughter a little past midnight.No apparent deformities, perfect in every way....senseless. I thanked God for my 5 children and I prayed for them and with them.

This came on the end of a few days of feeling pretty down. H and I had an appointment with Steve on Friday. That seems to be going well on the surface. However, like I told Steve, H has only been doing the absolute minimum. He does his assignments minutes before the appointment which leaves no time for me to process (I know, it's good that he does them).

Still no full disclosure. I have found H's profile on several dating and swinging sites. Discovered some emails that he sent to a woman and even pictures that they exchanged. They talked about a party that night at a swingers club. She invited him.

So I checked H phone records and sure enough, cell phone call to a number in the city where the club is, and then later on a call from that city to the OW he was sooo much in love with.

I just feel sick lately.

Steve says to be totally honest with him and let him know what I know.

My problem is that I want him to man up and come clean with me.

I told Steve I was sick of this Plan A where we never had any meaningful talk. We have an assignment to read Chapter 6 of HNHN together.

I guess I really just needed to vent, knowing that you guys care.

And I think I need a really good cry.

(((((((lizzie)))))))

Wow, Lizzie...big losses from expectations...from hopes and desires...

Your clients...such heartache...

Can you see the parallel between them and your marriage?

Deep desire for O&H...birth of a new marriage...and you say you expect your H to produce...earlier on the homework and full disclosure.

You can only control you...though you can see the new marriage whole and perfectly formed...senseless lying by omission.

Is that what you're calling it? Or do you believe it's a matter of disclosure rather than lying?

Want to change that belief? Transparency is no longer lying by omission.

You have no control except NOT lying by omission, which you are doing, to your marriage...even when you believe your H doesn't deserve it...

Take your responsibility where it is...to stay O&H because that's who you are. It's in your code and only you can live up to your code.

These are not negotiable in you, about you. They are yours.

We give ourselves a lot of crappy feelings, pushing down anger (with the admonishment to be patient); we add to our pain and fear when we go where we have no control. Old stuff. You know it well...find where your choices, today, are affecting your feelings.

O&H statements are short..."I know you have attacked our marriage again with emailing women about sex and calling about it. Do you want ranch or blue cheese on your salad?"

Stating truth is about you, Lizzie...not H. He has to find his own way...you have to get out of his way enough for him to see he's lost in old crap, too. And he doesn't have a nosey parker like me telling him when he is...

Like you do.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re-center and state stuff...one week before SH call..."I'm doing my exercise tonight. I'm having a difficult time not focusing on your stuff and keeping my focus on mine. I feel fear a lot."

So, woman up, Lizzie...if you are choosing to live in truth, it's gotta come out your pores.

You're worth it. Be brave for YOU and your marriage.

LA

Feeling really crappy today.

And emotional.

And hopeless.

We care.
We really do, but it's hard to send care and concern across the fiber optics lines. {{{{{{{{Lizzy}}}}}}}}



I'm sorry for the pain that you, and the parents felt as the story unfolded and the long night went on and on. I believe it is good they had you to help them. I hope your prayers brought comfort to both parties.

This came on the end of a few days of feeling pretty down. H and I had an appointment with Steve on Friday. That seems to be going well on the surface. However, like I told Steve, H has only been doing the absolute minimum. He does his assignments minutes before the appointment which leaves no time for me to process (I know, it's good that he does them).

I'd still like to shake him. Perhaps it's good he does them at all, but I don't see it that way. I see your love bank continuing to drop. That does not look good to me.

True that some gas is better than none - but if you are still 10 gal shy, it doesn't matter much. That's my worry.

Still no full disclosure. I have found H's profile on several dating and swinging sites. Discovered some emails that he sent to a woman and even pictures that they exchanged.

Is this ongoing, or from before?
Or can you tell?

They talked about a party that night at a swingers club. She invited him.

So I checked H phone records and sure enough, cell phone call to a number in the city where the club is, and then later on a call from that city to the OW he was sooo much in love with.

When was this call?

I just feel sick lately.

Steve says to be totally honest with him and let him know what I know.

My problem is that I want him to man up and come clean with me.

Part of this is Mars/Venus.

Many men - myself included need a direct approach. Steve has a good feel for this, I think you should talk to him.

The direct approach will also tell you much sooner what you are looking for. If he tries to hide things, lie about it, and avoid the whole truth - there he is all over again.

I told Steve I was sick of this Plan A where we never had any meaningful talk. We have an assignment to read Chapter 6 of HNHN together.

I keep hoping he will STEP UP, but the longer it goes, the more I want to shake him. He could be bigger than me, so where does this take me? I'm wearing my good shirt today too, so I don't know.

I guess I really just needed to vent, knowing that you guys care.

Yes, we do care.

Venting is good, but he needs to respond. Don't be afraid to tell him what you need. Spell it out very plain that if he doesn't want you, and won't protect your feelings, you will find someone who will. It's the truth - he may as well know it now.

And I think I need a really good cry.

(SS thinks for a very long time)

I'm so sorry. I wish it were better.
I know you'll be fine in the end, but sorry the road is so rough. Sometimes "sorry" is not nearly a good enough word to use.

God be with you.

SS

AmI, LA, and SS,

Thanks for your replies, your care and concern.

I am feeling a little more at peace today. I am thankful that I had the opportunity to be with that couple. I had already established a bond with them, so I am sure that God chose me to be the one to help them through that painful experience. An honor to do His work. Just needed a little time for some perspective.

The same holds true for my marriage I guess.

The emails are not ongoing, they are from August and from before. H is still looking at porn - the adult movie section on ebay mostly.

LA, I do consider his lack of full disclosure as lying. So, each time I find out another thing that he has failed to tell me, I feel a kick in the gut, almost like another D-day. I think what is hard for me is that all the time he was on these sites he was supposedly so much in love with OW - planning a life together, blah, blah, blah. I am really having trouble wrapping my head around this. And it is not doing anything to help rebuild my trust.

I am planning on doing my assignment this Friday. I will strive to keep the focus on me and my stuff. I will probably post stuff here for feedback.

Steve said we should give each other the "guided tour" of our lives, not just access to usernames and passwords. So I will be telling him about the keylogger and I guess this site as well.

What i want to do is give him the opportunity for full disclosure first. I want to tell him that I know he has not been completely honest with me and that we have 2 options on how to proceed.

1. I could tell him what I know and that way he could protect the things that I haven't found out about yet. He could take his chances that I might not ever find out anything else. That would do nothing towards restoring our matrriage or rebuilding trust.

OR

2. He could jump in with both feet and do a complete disclosure this time, thereby showing me his sincerity and his willingness to do whatever is necessary to repair our marriage.

SS, prior to our decision to try to recover this marriage, I told him all of the things I need to proceed. he has done the bare minimum, often kicking and screaming. So, how do I reinforce those things without pointing fingers?

Gotta go for now. More tomorrow.

It's good to talk as you go. I believe Steve is right about telling him how you feel.

I don't know your H. You do.
IF you know he could do better but isn't, then it will continue to make withdrawals from your love bank.

If it isn't working for you, tell him point blank WHAT IS NEEDED.

I know you told him up front. However, this is like love. That's kind of like the man that told his wife - "Honey, I told you I loved you when we got married, and if it ever changes, I'll let you know."

It just doesn't work that way. People need reality checks along the way. He needs one now - and BTW, my dad says a 2x4 to the head often makes the best kind of reality check.

Give him his reality check - you choose which kind. Then lets talk some more.

"H, how do you feel this recovery thing is going?" What's your take on it?
What's hard for you?
Can I tell you what's hard for me?"

Make an opening, then talk.

Remember, you still have options. You are becoming more Christ like, more humble, more honest, more open. You have skills now that you didn't have two years ago. The bottom line is that you are becoming more lovable. No matter what happens, you get to keep what you have.

This is a good thing.
Don't think it's a dead end proposition.

I admit living it is hard, but that's how it is in this life.

Tell me what's good today - I want to know.

SS

Give him the KERB, he's not worth the time of day, why try when he's not bothered, Save your sanity while you can, you DESERVE a better life with a REAL MAN...or even better, life is just fine with you and the children... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />