Hi, Lizzie.

You're pretty much set for good advice with SS and LA both on your team. I don't have much to add but some empathy. I feel ya, girl. My sitch is starting to turn around a little bit, so I am looking at everyone else's sitch through these little hope-colored glasses. Our stories are so similar .... so I think about you a lot and am puling for you!

"each time I find out another thing that he has failed to tell me, I feel a kick in the gut, almost like another D-day."

Have you ever said it exactly that way to him? Would you be able to say that and walk away and not expect an answer from him? I think it would feel good just to be able to get those words out.

"all the time he was on these sites he was supposedly so much in love with OW - planning a life together, blah, blah, blah."

Remember, this is the insanity, alien, fantasy concept. They're so far gone that everything is alright, and anything that feels kinda good for a moment must be TRUE love, or ordained by God, or the meaning of life -- for that moment.

Orchid talks a lot about WS's being two totally different people. She says Plan A the spouse and Plan B the WH .... it was the WH who did all that nutso stuff. And you don't want to re-build trust in THAT guy, anyway. So give youreslf a break and quit thinking that you have to!


"What i want to do is give him the opportunity for full disclosure first. I want to tell him that I know he has not been completely honest with me and that we have 2 options on how to proceed....."

I'm not sure, but this feels like setting him up to me. It feels a little manipulative. What about you being O&H yourself regardless of him. Make it about you, don't give him the power to decide how you feel or how you act or if you can recover.
"I know that you have not been honest with me. I keep coming across new information, and every time I do, it feels like a kick in the gut. A whole new D-Day all over again. I need to know that you will be honest with me before I will try to start trusting you again."

For me, the hard part is leaving it at that, regardless of his response (or lack thereof).

(((((hugs)))))

-AmI.

Good Post AmI - I think you really helped. You took it further than I did, and explained it well.

SS

SS and AmI -

Thanks sooooo much. Your posts really helped.

My H called from work a few times yesterday just to talk. Said he couldn't wait to get out of work, and then the last phone call was asking if we could go somewhere together this weekend just to "get the he11 out of here".

I met him at the door woth a big hug and a glass of eggnog with Captain Morgan in it ( a seasonal favorite!), and asked him if he wanted to tell me what had him so down today. He said that it was nothing really, he is just so unhappy with his job. Later on as we were watching TV, I gave him a foot rub.

He used to love his job, but once everyone found out about him and OW, he lost all respect. He would just rather avoid all the consequences and start over somewhere else. The thing is that he makes good money there. I doubt he would be able to find that somewhere else. And, his A and the year away from home has destroyed his credit and put him in a lot of debt, not to mention that it has taken about $50,000 from us (I lost his income over the past year).

When he says that I just try to empathize "I hear that it's really difficult for you at your job. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time" But I also state that we need him to make the same amount of money because of our financial situation. And I leave it at that.

I did a good job of making an open and honest statement on Wednesday night. We were on our way to pool and he asked what time my youngest son's school concert was on Thursday night. YS didn't invite him and I didn't want him to go because OW's children are in the same school and the same chorus.

I replied "It's at 6:30. I didn't invite you because I feel that is something that YS should get to decide. Also, I know that RJ's wife will probably be there as well and that would break no contact."

He said nothing. So I reached over and took his hand and said "You know, this is going to be a very difficult situation for me. I really need you to acknowledge that and say something like I'm sorry you have to go through this."

He replied "You know I don't like to talk about it."

I said "Yes, I know you don't like to talk about it. I need to talk about it. When you don't say anything, I think that you don't care or you don't understand. I need you to tell me that you do."

He said "I do care. And I am sorry".

I thanked him and changed the subject "Should I call ahead and order our dinner? I'm starving."

A few minutes later he squeezed my hand and I squeezed back.

So I asked him what he wanted to do this weekend and he said that he didn't know, just "something". Normally I would take care of everything and plan it all out, but I haven't this time. He comes home at noon and we can discuss it then.

I also thought about putting off my assignment since he is in such a down mood and I know he hates relationship talk, but that is not being fair or true to me.

So, I'll start with your opening SS and ask him how he thinks it is going. Warning- DJ ahead. He will say "fine" and leave it at that.

AmI, you're right. I am trying to be manipulative. I want him to be the one to tell me. I will use that statement and leave it at that.

I have printed out my letter to him that goes over all of the things that I need, and I will outline them again.

Mostly, I want to let him know that only complete honesty is acceptable from here on in.

I need him to approach this recovery with enthusiasm, even when it's hard.

And we need to continue with SH. His last assignment was for him to tell me what he thought his A must have felt like for me. SH says that if he truly understands how painful it was for me, he would want to protect me and our marriage so that he would never hurt me like that again. I don't think he truly understands. It was another rushed assignment a few minutes before counseling. So, I also want to tell him how it felt for me.

I felt like my whole world came to a grinding halt.
I felt like our whole life was a lie.
For the first time in my life, I had been happy and secure. I felt loved and cherished. We were a family. A good family. A great family. His A snatched that away from me, from the boys. It made me doubt everything I thought I know. It made me doubt myself.
I have never felt anything close to the pain that I felt when I found out.
I literally wanted to die.

I also need him to man up and acknowledge the kids' feelings.

Is that too much for one day?

Any other suggestions?

Lizzie,

Kudos on the O&H statements...and your composure. I'm sure you are making yourself proud.

Couple of things...I liked the listened and repeat about his job...confirming his stuff...when you added that you need his income, how about phrasing it with gratitude? I've found stating my gratitude...I appreciate very much you've stuck at that job. It would have been difficult for me...something like that. Says the same thing without the demand in it...we need you to stay there...which implies he's thinking of leaving it...when he didn't say that. My H has wrestled his feelings and beliefs about his work as long as I've known him...and in 20 years, he's only had two jobs...he sticks, though he wrestles, at times hates, or is gets to okay...appreciating his struggle, admiring his sticking out instead of walking away...well, that parallels something, I think.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And it's true, isn't it?

Are you saying you feel resentment for the loss of his income this past year? Like a double betrayal? Took his presence, his FS, everything away from you? Acknowledge and know, if that's what you hide from yourself...good to know.

Also, watch your requirements...you mentioned wanted him not only to participate but to be enthusiastic about his participation...find out if your expectations in this arena are reasonable...I remember longing for that...and my WH went to FWH grumbling and stabbing...my part was to see he went...and over time, as I proved I wasn't asking for more, more, more...and appreciating him going along beside me...he relaxed enough to begin to appreciate, cherish and now, feel awe for what we've done...because he fully, deeply expected me to say, "Okay for that, but now you need to sing it with FEELING" sorta thing.

Which was my pattern before...instead of realizing what my true expectations were.

And I'm confused...SH's assignment was for him to ask and listen to your experience due to his A...did I get that correctly? And he hasn't asked...and you're going to say it, anyway?

What was your assignment? I forgot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And when he says, "I don't like talking about it" (the A), respond with, "I appreciate you do not want to talk about it. And that you are choosing to do it, anyway."

Tell your truth...get to the deepest parts of it...because that's what he is doing...and if you remained focused on what he's NOT doing, or doing to your expectations, you'll step over reality...and you know I know, 'cuz that's a wayward choice...isn't it?

LA

Great Post LA - Well said.

Lizzie,
I know you want him to jump in with both feet. Remember that sometimes addictions are difficult to give up. For most people who quit smoking, it's all they can do to quit. Same with alcoholics who give up alcohol.

I don't know how he got him self addicted to lies, porno, and so on, but it seems to me to be a real addiction.

Remember one other person who did us a great service but who had a difficult time wanting to go through with it.
The book of Mark, chapter 14 records it so:
34 And (Jesus) saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

We know he did the will of the Father, and completed the Atonement. I am thankful that he was willing, even though it was difficult for him.

If your H will travel with you, even if he has a hard time with it, I count it as good. However, as has been said, if your LB is still draining, it may not work for you.

Let us know how today goes. We care what happens. I worried about not getting back in a timely manner, but it looks like you have plenty of excellent help.

Cheers !!

SS

Well, I ended up postponing the assignment until yesterday. H came home on Friday and we had lunch. I asked if we could do our assignment and he said yes as he rolled his eyes. But then, he went to get into the shower and he started SF, and then YS was home from school. So I never pursued it. We went out for dinner and then shopping, and then came home to watch a movie.

I worked on Saturday and by the time I got home, I didn't feel like I was in a good place to do it. I needed to think more about it.

Our assignment was to read the chapter from HNHN on open and honesty.

My assignment was to tell him all of the things I had discovered. To be totally honest.

So after I made breakfast on Sunday, I asked him "When would be a good time for us to do our assignment today?"

H: "you know I'll never say it's a good time. But whenever you want to do it, that's fine".

Me: "I appreciate that. Is now OK?"

So, he said yes and we read the chapter. There were questions to do at the end and we agreed to do those another time.

I told H that my assignment was to be honest with him and tell him about the things that I knew of.

Me:"H, back when we agreed to try to recover our M, I told you that there were certain things that I was going to need. We agreed to 3 months of reconciliation and 4 counseling sessions with SH. I also said that I needed you to be completely transparent and completely honest and a lot of the assignments that SH gave you were to help that happen. I know you have not been honest with me. Everytime I discover something new, it feels like a kick in the gut, like finding out about your A all over again."

H: "I don't know what you're talking about. I told you everything"

I got up and went to get the folder that I have of all of the things I have discovered. I said "I have found out quite a lot that shows me you have not been honest with me"

H: "So what have you found out?"

Me: "I was hoping that you would come clean with all of this. That would have gone a long way towards helping me rebuild trust. When we first talked about the logistics of getting back together, you said you would have to change your email address from (our local ISP) to a yahoo address because of the debt counseling ou had set up. You told me that you had one at yahoo, but had never used it. Then you gave me the xxx at yahoo address. I have found 2 other addresses that you have"

H "Is that with the spy program you have on the computer?"

Me: "Yes. I know you found it awhile ago. I also know about your profiles on the 4 sex and swinger sites"

H:"None of this is any of your business. This happened while we weren't together"

Me; "This is all information that I need to know. I have a right to this information. We are not supposed to have any secrets from each other".

I can't recreate the whole conversation, but he kept saying that I had no right to any of the information, that he didn't want to know what my life had been like while we weren't living together because he didn't feel like it was any of his business, and he was pissed off that I used the spy program to find this stuff out and the amount of digging I had done. The stuff I had was irrefutable.

So he admitted to meeting that woman in August at the swinger's club and having sex with her. He didn't tell OW.

He is not willing to do any more counseling. Doesn't want to talk about his feelings, "it's hard enough to talk to you without talking to a stranger", he hates SH and never wants to talk to him again, he is like every other man in America who looks at porn, "no big deal".

I said it was a big deal because it makes me uncomfortable, he hides it, and it leads to temptation. I know I probably shouldn't have said this but I told him that I thought he had a problem with sex, that it was a matter of him not having the tools to prevent him from acting impulsively. That OW was the first woman to throw herself at him and he wouldn't say no, despite the fact that he maintains we were happily married and he loved me. And then he loved her, all the while cruising sex and porn sites for other women.

So, we went back and forth a few more times throughout the day (I had to go to my son's graduation in between). I told him that I couldn't go any further without counseling. He said he can't do counseling. So, I thanked him for the recovery attempt, said that it was good for us to do and to know where we stand, that I had done it because I needed to know for me if there was a chance of recovering our marriage. I also went back over my original letter with him about the things I needed to move forward. I said that none of that had changed. He said that he thought if he did the 4 sessions, that would be enough. I replied that even though we had done 4 sessions and that I really appreciated it, his dishonesty had only drained my love bank and wihtout total honesty, I couldn't even begin to think about trusting him again. Without trust, there can be no marriage.

I said that I had committed until 12/30 and I would honor that. I also said that even though I knew he didn't like to talk about "things" we would need to make some final decisions. He said that he loved me and him being back here should show me that he was fully committed to the M. I replied again that only total honesty and a willingness to find a plan for a great marriage would demonstrate a true committmnet. Without that we would go back to the same marriage that allowed him to carry on an affair. He said "I want you, but you're telling me that I can only have you if we go to counseling".

Basically the same conversation we had 3 months ago.

So then my BIL and SIL came over for dinner.

He has been loving since. I am doing Plan A - but it's hard. Acting by choice instead of reacting.

I knew that this was a possibility when I took the risk of recovery. It doesn't make it any easier, though.

But I can't move forward without those things. There are too many issues involved.

(((((((((Lizzie))))))))))))

I know that I'm going to get slammed for my opinion, and that this is about you! however, I feel that alot of time that the "rules" here are too rigid. A marriage is about give and take. I understand that you are still in pain.

I understand your WH not wanting MC. As with my DH, who aslo refuses MC or IC for that matter, some people are brought up differently, viewing MC and IC as a threat to their being.

I feel that your WH has made great efforts...I hope that you see those...I see him trying SOOOO hard for you, lizzie!

It doesn't appear that your WH sees that your time apart is relevent to his current situation. MY DH kept asking me to look at it from both sides and it wasn't until I did that we were able to come together. I think that regardless of our pain that we still have to be thoughtful of them as human beings.

I understand your decision...I have to rethink my needs with the new information that DH had shown me...what's important to one may not always be important to another...

Sometime's no matter how hard we try to explain why we need something the point still can't be understood...

Your WH loves you...I see him trying...willing to try to fix the mess that he created...it seems that he had expectations of doing so well with you that he would change your mind...HOPING!

It's all so sad! Wishing you the best! I already know that you will be okay! You are so wonderful and you know it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Rin. I checked out your thread. Glad to hear you are doing so well.

I am so confused. I see what you are saying.

Trying to keep the focus on me.

My boundary was counseling. Well 4 sessions anyway, and then we would renegotiate. All along I knew I would ask for more. I guess I had that as an expectation and now he won't do it. And I'm mad at him when I should be mad at myself. Just typing this I realized that he stuck to that agreement. If I wanted more, I should have said so at the time instead of agreeing to just the 4 sessions. But, I still feel that we need MC. Where does that leave me?

I guess I could continue to go alone.

H just wants to pretend that none of it happened. He still has not approached this with the boys. My YS wrote me a letter asking why H hasn't acknowledged his feelings and apologized for hurting him. YS said that he thought my H doesn't care about him. I showed the letter to my H, but he still has not responded to YS even though that is the assignment SH gave him 2 weeks ago.

How do I protect them? How do I protect me?

Christmas is coming and we have always gone to MIL's house. Boys are struggling with that decision this year.

Part of me thinks I should just tell H that I will proceed with D and then let the boys know so they don't have to struggle, or so they don't face an even bigger fall after Christmas.

Last year while my H was in the midst of his A (I thought he was struggling with the want a child issue) things kind of turned around at Christmas. Our anniversary is the 18th. He called me at work at midnight to say "Happy Anniversary. I love you" and then he was loving and attentive all through Christmas. I thought we had turned a corner. I thought maybe he was coming to terms with the whole child issue.

When I found out about the A on the 28th, I was devastated. It was like a double betrayal. I asked why he had been acting so loving and he said that he wanted me to have a happy Christmas before he told me he was leaving.

I kind of feel like if I let the kids go through Christmas and then spring this on them, it will be like that for them. Things here are starting to settle down. The animosity is less. Things are guarded with the boys, but they seem to be doing better with H in the house now.

So is counseling a boundary for me or is it an attempt to manipulate?

Do I finally throw in the towel, or do I continue to try to focus on me, hoping he will find his own way? Well, I know he needs to find his own way, I just mean do i completely step aside, not ask for counseling and see what happens?

I really need advice here. I feel pulled in so many different directions.

H came home for lunch, and even though I tried to act normal, I found things a little strained.

I know I need to be more open and honest in everyday communication. I have been letting a lot of opportunities slide by, because I haven't wanted to sound like I keep bringing up the A or I am constantly complaining about something.

I guess my fear is how he will take it. Even when i choose my words carefully, he manages to interpret my statements as something else. I know I have no control over that either. I guess I just need practice.

Sorry for the rambling, but that's where I'm at.

Liz, I have to say that you are where you need to be...and I can relate to your FWH because my DH is the same in several ways.

I too thought that he wanted all of it to go away and not to talk about it but the fact of the matter is he is having to dealt with everything in HIS OWN TIME...not mine...not the kids...

Your FWH is doing the best that he can right now with the tools that he has...perhaps your family needs to practice "being" for awhile...I'm not saying push the problems under the rug...they're still there and yes, they must be dealt with...but in time...

The first week was hard for me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but it got easier...DH and I do talk about a little something from time to time...but we are more in tune with enjoying each other...

We decided that we can live in misery or not...individual choices...

I'm afraid that you, FWH, and your sons are pushing things to hard right now and it's possible creating alot of tension...which could in essence create another false recovery...

But IMHO...your DH wants to be with you and the boys...let him proof himself in his own way...Your boys will need to understand that we don't always get what we want when we want it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think Mom's still learning this too... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Admiring you all the way! I've had to learn to do the oppositie of what I feel...my vows said...in good times and in bad...we don't always think that this is the bad time and the good is "right" around the corner...it's our choice!

Oh, I did want to let you know that my DH is having the same trouble with some of my statements.

I think perhap he may be reading more into them then what I'm saying...this will come with time...I believe...

Not only do I mistrust DH but he mistrust me also...BS, I think, are put in a position where we have to do things like expose and for the WS they begin to distrust us...

Trust must be earned again on both sides...when they feel safe, they are open and honest...when we feel safe, we do the same...it's getting over the hard feeling created on both sides and getting to that point...

I believe you will learn what you need to...but <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> not in your time... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LMAO

He is not willing to do any more counseling. Doesn't want to talk about his feelings, "it's hard enough to talk to you without talking to a stranger", he hates SH and never wants to talk to him again, he is like every other man in America who looks at porn, "no big deal".


This is what bothers me the most.
Entitlement -

When you do something like he has done, and you want to show you regret it, you go out of your way to help your spouse feel safe.

He is not doing that AT ALL.

Every man in America does not look at porn.
It's a big deal to lots of women who want to be first in their husbands heart. It's a big deal to many men who want their W to feel loved, and protected, and safe.


Thanks Rin. I checked out your thread. Glad to hear you are doing so well.

I am so confused. I see what you are saying.

Trying to keep the focus on me.

My boundary was counseling. Well 4 sessions anyway, and then we would renegotiate. All along I knew I would ask for more. I guess I had that as an expectation and now he won't do it. And I'm mad at him when I should be mad at myself. Just typing this I realized that he stuck to that agreement. If I wanted more, I should have said so at the time instead of agreeing to just the 4 sessions. But, I still feel that we need MC. Where does that leave me?

No one knows everything about what they need when they sign up for recovery. You made an error, but so do I almost daily in some things. You can re-negotiate at any time, when you realize something won't work for you. It's better to be honest that you made an error than to say "I can't live with this, but I agreed, so I'll do it if it kills me."

YOU can, and should think about this every so often, and see if it's working for you. YOU should be honest about what his actions are doing to your feelings for him.

Perhaps that's what he is telling you in so many words too - that he thought he could do better, but it's not working for him.

I was hoping he would get on board, but these conversations are not someone who wants YOU. It is someone who wants the life he had with you, but who wants freedom to do whatever he wants, and he feels YOU should be happy about it no matter what.

I guess I could continue to go alone.

MC is about learning to interact with your spouse in ways that are healthy for both of you I don't know if it does much good when one party shows contempt for the things that are necessary for recovery. Your interactions already look healthy. His look pretty bad - sick - unhealthy.

H just wants to pretend that none of it happened. He still has not approached this with the boys. My YS wrote me a letter asking why H hasn't acknowledged his feelings and apologized for hurting him. YS said that he thought my H doesn't care about him. I showed the letter to my H, but he still has not responded to YS even though that is the assignment SH gave him 2 weeks ago.

Kind of like getting lung cancer, but continuing to smoke?


How do I protect them? How do I protect me?

There is not much protection during this kind of recovery.
Plan B is protection.

It's pretty wide open where you are now. If you interact, and he is not making progress, you get hurt.

Was he having a bad day, or is he that way all the time?

IF he is that way all the time, then I worry. We got a better picture of what he is like with that conversation than we have in a while. I don't like what I saw.

Christmas is coming and we have always gone to MIL's house. Boys are struggling with that decision this year.

Is it that H will be there, or don't they feel comfortable with MIL?

If it's just H, then maybe go without him.
Just use a cast iron frying pan on him. It always worked for my W.

Part of me thinks I should just tell H that I will proceed with D and then let the boys know so they don't have to struggle, or so they don't face an even bigger fall after Christmas.

If he is this way always, and never has times when he is sorry, and wants to change, then you may be right. If it goes in cycles, then I don't know.



I kind of feel like if I let the kids go through Christmas and then spring this on them, it will be like that for them. Things here are starting to settle down. The animosity is less. Things are guarded with the boys, but they seem to be doing better with H in the house now.

I don't know what time table is best if you are sure it's over. It would be just a matter of when. Perhaps it's more important to do what you feel, than there is any actual right or wrong time.

If you are not sure, and if he does do well some days, then you need more time to know anyway.

So is counseling a boundary for me or is it an attempt to manipulate?

Depends.
Doesn't matter much though. His whole attitude is off. Counseling is only one part of this, the other parts don't match up either.

Do I finally throw in the towel, or do I continue to try to focus on me, hoping he will find his own way? Well, I know he needs to find his own way, I just mean do i completely step aside, not ask for counseling and see what happens?

If he was trying hard to protect your feelings, be honest, and care for you, then yes.
Remember Harley's four rules -
Is he willing to do them?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html

If not, then you don't have recovery - at least I don't think you do. You have him wanting the advantages of being with you, without the intimacy and commitment of marriage.

I really need advice here. I feel pulled in so many different directions.

D is the only sure thing. If you D him, you won't have to wonder if it will work.

If you wan to continue to try, there are no guarantees.
Sorry.


H came home for lunch, and even though I tried to act normal, I found things a little strained.

I wonder if he is thinking now that he told you "I am what I am, and you can live with it, or without it." that he is in the clear. My feeling is that if he was trying, he would ask you how you are, and tell you he hopes it will work, etc., etc. Ignoring it hasn't worked so far, why would it work now?

I admit I worry more now than I have done. This additional information doesn't look good on him, or on recovery.

I know I need to be more open and honest in everyday communication. I have been letting a lot of opportunities slide by, because I haven't wanted to sound like I keep bringing up the A or I am constantly complaining about something.

That's important too. It can be overdone.

However, it can be underdone too.

I guess my fear is how he will take it. Even when i choose my words carefully, he manages to interpret my statements as something else. I know I have no control over that either. I guess I just need practice.

Or he is taking offense as a defense. It sounds like how a WS always tries to turn the blame to the BS for everything that happens. Not because it is needed, but because it is a habit.

I think only counseling can get both of you through it. It often takes a third party to see the signals, and give guidance to both in the marriage. It's hard to make these corrections on your own, because you are never quite sure who needs correcting.

I do notice though, that you appear to have humility, and care about doing things right, and he is still saying "I don't want this, and I won't do that."

That is a clue BTW.

Let me put it a different way.

You want a third party to look at your marriage, and offer help to work out problems.

He doesn't want third party involvement, and he hates Steve H.

That is probably a clue as to what is really going on. You are willing to let someone look at your habits, and you are willing to change if it is needed.

How about him?

Sorry for the rambling, but that's where I'm at.

I didn't notice rambling - your text is pretty clear.

I have to disagree with Rin on this part -
But IMHO...your DH wants to be with you and the boys...let him proof himself in his own way...Your boys will need to understand that we don't always get what we want when we want it...

First, I agree on the part about the boys. We don't always get what we want.

(Rin, please realize I am in respectful disagreement)
However, I don't believe letting him do this his way will work
In my opinion, If the four rules are not followed, there can be no true recovery. I think Dr Harley knows what he is doing with this I think those four rules are a must.

In your case, the problems are lack of care and protection, and lack of honesty.

How can you love someone who doesn't care about your feelings, and who continues to hide things from you?

Under Harley's system, you take both of your feelings into account - and try to find a solution that lets both be happy. However, that already assumes working within the four rules to find solutions.

He wants to work outside the rules for his solution. I have a hard time accepting that, and I think you do too Liz.

I hope that helps with the clarity, but I know the conclusions are not the best.

SS

PS,
I stand by what I said before in one respect.

If he will make the changes, even if he has a hard time doing it, there can be progress.

I used the example of stopping smoking.

It may be difficult for him, and he may drag his heals, but if he is actually changing, it's good.

If he says "the heck with you, Ill do what I want." then you don't have anything at all.

SS

Thanks, SS! I understood where you were coming from. I too, appreciate your opinion!

I didn't really mean in "HIS OWN WAY" it was more as a time thing...

My question to you Liz, it is just SH or MC in general? Do you know if FWH would be interested in another MC?

{{Lizzie}}

I wanted to chime in about how he takes stuff...because it may not be why you think...so don't think it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My WH said, "You'll just chart my progress and find me failing. Nothing I do will be good enough for the marriage in your eyes."

My FWH said over a year and a half later, "I often hear in my head how nothing I do is good enough. I have to claw to find any progress within myself and even then, I discount it. I really needed to hear you say, "An inch of change is still change and for MC to say that, too."

Little do we know that we are not the cause, control or cure for others...overdoing or underdoing...if you base what YOU do on his possible response...you will resent, blame and flail...and it's your choice, Lizzie.

When you speak of the A with your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...when you share, using those "I" statements, then you are being brave and true to yourself...choosing to act to your code of honesty...which you ripped on HIM for not being back in August...and that was honest of you...saying you knew. You knew about him. Share now, what you know about YOU...you cannot control his response...nor could you ever or will you ever...not based on what you say or don't say...only if you make it his fault, can you directly influence his feeling measured and attacked.

As long as you're sure you're not doing either...removing judgment and blame...then be O&H, anyway!

Do not make his stuff your master...live freely, in your own power. You don't feel safe...state that. "I don't feel safe." Share not accuse...say what you know and KNOW it...you already know you're brave, smart, loyal and courageous...revoke permissions to be response-based, 'k?

Hope this helps...if you could clear his slate right now, choose to see him as if you don't know him...and get to know him, now knowing his essence separate from his actions...and share who you are now ('cuz you're SOOOO new)...you may find your way to get real partnership, and act from love, even when you fear...and love yourself and your marriage, more.

LA

(((((Lizzie)))))

I'm not sure if it would work, but maybe you can put this decision back on him. Keep your boundaries up, but also open a little bit of a door at the same time by asking HIM to come up with a better plan than MC. Ask him for HIS proposal and suggest that you'd consider dropping the requirement for counseling if he comes up with something else that will work.

He still needs to demonstrate that he will protect you and the M, be O&H, etc., just make him come up with a way to get to the 4 rules without having to do it in ways that he objects to (like MC).

"In order for me to stay in this M, I need to know that you are protecting us, will care for my feelings, and will be honest with me. MC is the only thing I can think of that will help us build a plan for getting to that point, but I hear you say that you are not comfortable with MC. I would be willing to consider other options you might know of that will help us get there." Puts the requirement back on him ... and takes away his excuse of "you won't stay married to me unless I do it your way...."

Maybe?

-AmI.

Good AmI - I think it's a good suggestion.

The burden ought to be his, if he won't take it, or doesn't care, then that's a good clue about how well this will work.

SS

H and I didn't really have another conversation about things until last night. I had an opportunity to make some open and honest statements the other night when we went to his doctor appointment. We were talking about Christmas and I told him that this was a hard time of year for me because it brought up all of the feelings of discovering his A last year. He did reach over and take my hand and say "I'm sorry". I thanked him for that and told him that made me feel cared for.

And then yesterday I talked to him on the phone. We were both at work. I could hear he was upset and I said "You sound upset. Would you like to tell me about it?" He said "I can't really say anything here. I hate being here, I hate my job, and now everything else." I said "What do you mean by everything else?" He said he couldn't talk and had to go. I told him I loved him and that I'd see him later.
We talked last night. He told me he is VERY mad that I used the keylogger and went digging into his personal stuff. He said that there is a part of him that no one has a right to, a part of him that he wants to stay hidden, that I have no right to any of the information of the past year.
I told him that I understood he had a different point of view about the last year than I did, but that I knew there could be no secrets in a successful marriage. I shared some of the stuff in Joseph's letter and how not knowing is worse than knowing any truth. I told him that the truth is always kinder.
So, without all of the gory details, he said we would have been fine if I had just left everything alone, that things were going fine for us until I stirred this stuff up. He refuses to go to counseling, doesn't want to talk about relationships or feelings. So I asked him to clarify for me what he was saying. I told him that I heard him saying that it is OK for married people to keep secrets from each other, things they think are "private", that a relationship should just be on the surface, just pretend, everyone puts on a good face and never talks about the problems. He didn't answer. I kept asking him what happens if the spouse of the person finds out any of the secrets that the other spouse is keeping. I used the example from years ago. I went out to clean out his truck as a Valentine's Day surprise. I washed the windows and cleaned the rugs and upholstery. I found a receipt that he had from an adult bookstore for a "lingerie show". I confronted him and found out he had paid a woman to undress for him. He said he had always been curious and it was no big deal. I was devastated and told him so. I told him that I thought that was cheating. He seemed truly sorry and said it would never happen again. He wrote me a beautiful letter of apology at the time. I believed him and forgave him. I reminded him of that and he had no answer about what he thought would happen if one spouse found another keeping secrets.
I also asked him what his plan was for repairing our marriage if he was so against counseling. He kept saying he didn't know and things would have been fine if I hadn't gone digging. I asked how he thought any of this whole past year might have been for me, and how I need to be protected, and how he needs to earn back trust. He just turned it around and said that because of the keylogger, he can't trust me anymore. And he won't live his life under a microscope. I told him that people who have nothing to hide, have nothing to hide.
He said he wanted to deal with things on his own and doesn't understand why I won't let him. I told him I wasn't trying to get into "his stuff" or tell him what to do about it, I was just telling him that I needed honesty and for us to follow the 4 rules, and I told him what those were. He asked me to reconsider counseling.
I told him that his refusal to be honest with me scares me, that I feel very unsafe. I told him that I had been reading and learning all I could about affairs over the past year and a half and that the only thing I could see that works for couples is counseling. I told him that if he knew of a different plan that would work that was based on honesty and protection thatI would certainly consider it. I told him that all along I had been up front in telling him what is was I needed. I did tell him that I knew he ad done the 4 sessions as agreed and a big part of my hurt the other day was because I had expectations that we would continue, that he would see that counseling was just a roadmap that would help us find our way through this, that no one was going to beat him up or try to force him to do anything. He said that he just wanted to get the 4 sessions over with so we could stop. I said that I wished he had told me that back in September, when I told him what I needed to consider recovery. I told him that all of this dishonesty was just doing more and more damage.

I told him I wanted a marriage, a real marriage and I would listen to any suggestions on how to get that, but I couldn't go along with keeping secrets and telling lies.

He just said that he wasn't going to go to counseling and then went to bed. He got up and left for work this morning and gave me a kiss on the top of the head when he left.

Lizzie,

What I'm getting is that your H is a sex addict...which is about secrets, btw, not truly about sex...not a physiological disorder...it has a cycle...he has an image of himself, and sees it invaded by others (through judgment and intimacy), his anxiety and fear spikes, he looks for major distraction (sexual voyeurism and acting out), which relieves his anxiety and fear temporarily, until an equally intense guilt and shame walk in, which gives him the same engulfed feeling, which spikes his anxiety and fear...

The cycle has been through his whole life...his secrets feel like his own identity...and others knowing his secrets feel like his identity being wiped out...

This is what my DH learned about himself...Out of the Shadows by Carver (we're unclear...might be Carder)...anyway, when my DH read the first chapter, he grew very excited and said to me..."Here, read these first three pages. They are my life." He was full of relief from more than 40 years of feeling wrong, defective and strange.

I'm picking up on more stuff, too...my DH doesn't do work stress well...he's still working on it...and it colors his view of his life. Even today, I see parallels from how we were in our marriage to how he reacts to work...same stuff, looks different on the outside...seems the same underneath.

About counseling...my DH was taught not to air family problems, not to seek help and things would get better on their own if they weren't examined or made into drama. He broke this lifelong belief during my A and sought counseling...even though that counselor was awful, he did it again, with me, for MC, during his own A...because he was sick of being who he thought he was...

I share this to give you another possible perception, a different perspective...and to show you that four sessions were huge for your H...incredible fear...and he did them.

I do not believe our marriage would exist today without my DH being brave and going to a Christian Marriage counselor who specialized in SA. We had no idea...yet God led us...so we could understand...and I stopped being invasive, a digger, a threat (which to others without this deep fear of intimacy would take as attention and interest)...

See if any of this may be true for you and your marriage...go to www.recoverynation.com and check out some of what this encompasses. Really jumped out at me in your last post.

My heart goes out to you...this isn't who he really is...however, it is who he really thinks he is...and it's an awful way to live...full of pain and extremes and shame and no real balance. You cannot cure him--just wanted you to know you weren't the cause or control, either.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((Lizzie))))

LA

LA, addiction is what I see too.

So, now what?

What do I do?

What do I say?

If no counseling, I can't go forward. If we don't go forward now, I can't in the future.

I won't put the boys through this again.

I asked him last night why he hasn't apologized to the boys yet. He said "I'm not even sure that I like OS anymore." I asked him if that changed the fact that he hurt him or removed his responsibility to make an apology. He didn't answer. I asked about YS. Again, no answer. I said that I remembered YS throwing himself into H's arms the night he left and begging him not to go - "You're the best dad I ever had. Please don't leave us". I said I didn't understand how you could not apologize to someone you knew you had hurt so badly. Still, no answer.

I am feeling SO lost and overwhelmed.

I know, Lizzie...I remember. Lost, overwhelmed...everything upside down.

I can tell you that my DH said much the same thing about my oldest...that his feelings had changed for him...because of the way he was in his teen years...how he felt DS treated him...and today, he is crazy about him...the more he learns about himself, the more he accepts himself, so does he others...now is not forever.

What you are doing is trying to comprehend and fit into your own understanding...the way you think, what you expect, what you've measured and patted down as the way things should be...and I'm asking you to put that on hold for a week and research...because like me, this is far outside your experience...the way you think...and what you are doing, that I see, is what feels invasive, engulfing and frightening...DH lives in a world of constant judgment...relentless...and briefly, he'll see where it's really in him...in his mind, his inner voice...he's still more ready to hear it in others...reactively.

I LOVED myself fully when I changed my presmise in life from control to respect...accepting what I could not empathize with and to research, stretch and know...and it aided me greatly, because there were tendrils I found in myself, completely hidden.

Your boundaries remain your own. I'm asking you to really look in a totally new way...a different perspective from what you've chosen before for YOU...how much you've "made" your H...held him to...inside and out...and what that means to you...your choice in doing that before you enforce your final boundary. Understanding before action...so you get all the knowledge first...before action.

I see you still taking on what is his as yours...self-betrayal. I see you craving to stand on firm ground, as if that's confidence...when we build it within ourselves...and not seeing where you betray yourself...by going into his stuff.

That's where I get my lost feelings...when I don't know where I begin or end...my yearnings from fear and my wants from love...how can I choose my actions and words when I don't know myself where I'm coming from? Lost isn't bad or wrong...it's a signal...so is overwhelmed...I believe these signals are truly about us, for us...no judgment. What a gentle way of signalling we've lost our premise, our intent has become muddled...and we're doing what we've done before, only now, we know more, and read our signals.

Would you consider your H isn't different than he was before...all your married life? Your new eyes from new knowledge is of aid to you...seeing what might have meant something different to you before, isn't the same.

Knowing you're changing and growing matters. That firm ground cannot be obtained through judging him into the ground...I promise. I did that. I have a pocket of sorrow which remains realizing I did that. Nurture yourself, Lizzie. Breathe deeply and recenter yourself in your stuff.

Have you shared your intent with him? "I want very much to be your partner. I will not parent you. I hold myself to respecting you make all your own choices, as I do mine. I believe we can grow and thrive. I'm willing to do that with or without you. I know I can't change you in any way, at any time, for any reason. I want very much to understand myself better and I need counseling for this. I have a lot of fears and sometimes they overwhelm me...I want a safe place to sort them out, see them for what they are...and I'm asking you to partner me in MC, so we can get to a thriving, marvelous marriage where BOTH of us feel safe, respected and loved."

I believe in you, Lizzie. You are not bad or wrong...you know whatever decisions you make for yourself and your family are solely yours...you can be trusted. I want you to understand more (without judgment) before you make those decisions. He is your equal--not a lost boy or a warped man...he's a human being whom you cannot control in any way...he chooses...I want very much for you to see your own choices and HIS choices...with clarity, no assumptions.

I believe if you can get to where you are not reactive, you will have that clarity. Life will radically change because your perspective changes...and truth is what you stand on...reality.

I want you to know and believe that what he's done this past year is part of your marriage...so you can hear his words and hand them back, respectfully. And to know what he says is his stuff...right now...not forever...not the truth, just his own.

I found this time you're going through right now to feel perilious and be incredibly powerful for me...about me...and my choices. To act, not react. To keep that hopper on my head for MY own growth...to be who I really was, all along...respectful. Loving from choice. And to know myself more and more...since I'd taken the path that went outside to get inside...flipping things over to get where I could know within by staying within...and finally love fully and abundantly.

His relationship with your children is his...and yours with them is yours...dwelling in your thoughts where you have no control will lead you into internal chaos and conflict. Stay where you have choice and power...actively.

LA