Lizzie,
Where do you want to go?

What do you want to do?

SS

Hi, Liz...I'm sorry I haven't really been keeping up with your thread lately but I wanted to say THANK YOU for the advice Tues.

It really helped...

((((((((LIZ)))))))

I'm finally back to post. LA and SS, I have been giving much thought to your posts over the past week (in between working 60+ hours and mega homework assignments).

First, SS, to answer your questions.

Where do I want to go and what do I want to do?

I want to recover my marriage. I want to continue my own personal recovery. Two separate things, yet still intertwined. I seem to keep getting blurry about the boundaries of each.

First, let me tackle the big issue of family.

My H's last assignment from Steve Harley was to begin to make amends with the kids starting with the youngest first. Brief statements of acknowledgment and apology. That was our last appointment with Steve because it was the last of the 4 that we had agreed to initially. H has not yet done that. I see an IC, and YS sees the same one. OS refuses to go to counseling. Over the past 5 months, the anger emanating from the boys has settled down into a dull undercurrent with only a few flare-ups. Neither one will eat dinner at the dining room table as a rule. Occasionally, with company there, they will join us. Family outings are non-existent. IC has encouraged me to respect the boys' feelings, to stay focused on my relationship with them, and to not intervene in their relationship with H.

I have been doing a good job of that. When H first returned home, if he wanted the boys to do something, he would ask me to ask them. If something happened while I was at work - like YS staying up past his bedtime - he would tell me about it the next day. Before the A, H and I were jointly responsible for all disciplinary matters. The rules were decided on together and consequences were discussed. Those same rules are still in effect. If I wasn’t home before, H would enforce the rules. What was happening when H first returned home was that both H and the boys were using me as a middle man – a sort of he did this, he did that, and hoping that I would intervene. So I worked out a plan with my IC for that. I told the boys that I expected them to follow the rules whether or not I was there, and if they didn’t, there would be consequences. The down side to that is it leaves them feeling like H is a “tattletale” and isn’t promoting any warm fuzzies there. I told H that I was choosing to not be the middle man between him and the kids, that he was responsible for his half of the relationship that he has with them and I wasn’t going to get involved, but said in a much nicer way than that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. So now, H leaves notes on the table that are not addressed to anyone.

Example from last week - on the table there is a piece of paper titled:
Things I found when I got home from work today
1. Dirty dishes in sink
2. Poop on the floor from the dog
3. Not a bit of shoveling done

And a couple of other things were on the list. I did not acknowledge it because it was not addressed to me. Nor did H mention anything about it. I thought about making an O&H statement about it, but I chose not to. I did that because I expected that H would expect me to DO something about it (DJ on my part), and I didn’t want to get caught in the middle. IC says that H and boys need to reestablish the relationship on their own, and that although I insist that the boys must be respectful in their behavior towards H (as I would expect them to be with anyone), H must earn back his position as an authority figure, a step-father. Steve said that the A hurt us as a family, and we would have to heal as a family. Once H had ended his affair, Steve said the next step was for H to apologize.

So my confusion –

I do not want to parent my H.

I do need to parent my children.

H abdicated his role as step-father, left without ever contacting the 2 boys who considered him a father. Lots of pain there.

He came back, never acknowledged their hurt, never apologized, never even said he would like to. This is where they are coming from – Why should we even want him back in our lives when he hasn’t ever said he wants us back in his life. All he’s done is ignore us or complain about us since he moved back in.

I’m good with the boys. I am able to use the O&H statements with them, to hand their words back to them – “I hear you saying that you are very angry with him because…..”

And they have gotten better at sharing stuff with me.

Draw your lines clearly, Lizzie. This isn't about roles...it's about priorities...who comes first and who doesn't...and I believe, given your marital history, the hardest thing for you to do is to put your marriage first, above your children...how close am I? So this is the struggle, not in roles, but in choices.

Bingo. More often than not, it feels like one is at the expense of the other.


As far as the whole tire incident, a little change in perspective goes a long way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.



Same thing with DD’s letter to H. I wish I had said it just that way. That’s where I seem to get stuck – I need to remember to hand his words back instead of responding based on his comment. Practice, practice, practice.

OK, that’s enough for this one post. I’ll update on the letter and the M issues on a separate one. Otherwise, it’ll look like I’m writing a novel!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So now for the M stuff.

LA, thanks for helping me with the letters. The rewrite was very powerful. Once you point out where it is that H is choosing to avoid reality, and where he steps over my choice (can’t believe I missed that), it was easy to see. I wonder if I’ll ever get that on my own. It seems I react…internally…sometimes externally. What you wrote about making myself stay present and then getting resentful is true. Rereading the letter with the filter attached took away a lot of the bite – helped me to see the fantasy.

On the subject of the wedding rings, I apologized to H for making that choice without considering his feelings, for being disrespectful. On its own, it would have been bad enough, but the timing made it even worse. He told me that he did object to me not wearing the original rings. I told him that I didn’t want to do anything that he was not in complete agreement with, so I have returned the rings.

"I want to heal from the events of the past year. I believe that you have the power to help me do that. I have done all that I can on my own - I need you for the rest."
You got me on this. I was speaking in terms of the relationship, but was really just attempting to manipulate him by trying to MAKE him SEE how important his half is.

So here’s a conversation from last week.

H and I went out to breakfast the other morning. As we sat there I said:

“H, I want to let you know something. YS told me that they had a party at school for FOW’s daughter last Friday because she is moving to South Carolina. At first I wasn’t going to tell you because I was afraid that if you knew, you would try to contact her. And then I reminded myself that your choices are 100% yours and nothing that I say or don’t say, do or don’t do is in any way responsible for the choices that you make. That was so liberating! Keeping that information from you is dishonest. I wanted to share this with you because I want to let you know that I am relieved, not because I hold her responsible for the A, but because it will be easier for YS to not have to see her everyday at school. And I will no longer worry about running into her at the grocery store or at the school.

H didn’t reply to that.

Since I was on a roll, I said “you know, for the past 6 weeks, I have been sitting back and waiting for you to ask me how this no SF impacts me. I realized that by not speaking up, I was not being true to myself. I miss being physically close to you. I would like us to explore ways that we could still do that”

H replied “I’ve had no interest in any of that since the doctor’s appointment”.

I said “This is something that impacts both of us. I’m here too and I miss being close to you”
I felt like I couldn’t seem to say the right thing with that.

H said “Can we just have breakfast?”

Me “Are you saying that you’d like me to stop sharing my feelings with you?”

H: “I’m saying that I just want to eat breakfast. You know I don’t like talking about all that stuff.”

Me: “Yes, I’ve heard you say on several occasions that you feel uncomfortable talking about feelings. What would you like to talk about?’

I was a little bit teary. I know – I reacted. We spent the rest of breakfast making small talk.

On the way home, I said “H, I am really frustrated. You write me a letter telling me that you feel me closing myself off, but when I share my thoughts and feelings with you, you ask me to stop because it makes you feel uncomfortable”.

H:”That’s because I know you expect me to tell you what I’m feeling and that stuff is mine”.

Me: “So you’re saying that when I share myself with you, you feel like I’m pressuring you to do the same?”

H: “Yes.”

Me: “That’s interesting. Are you asking me to do or not do something?”

H: “Can we just not talk about it”

Me: “H, if you are asking me to stop sharing myself with you, I cannot honor that request. I have committed myself to being open and honest, to being responsible for my half of this relationship. It’s not always comfortable, but I am more concerned with being real and being intimate than I am in being comfortable”.

The rest of the day, he was a little more attentive and I fought against withdrawing because I am still struggling with that rejection = removal thing way deep down inside.

Ugh, I need to post more often. These long posts are killing me…and I haven’t even got to how to respond to his letter yet.

At first I was going to take it pretty much line by line and do a lot of repeating.

"H. I hear you saying that when I share my thoughts and feelings with you, you perceive it as an attack or as rejection."

Somehow, I want to incorporate that I can see that he is choosing his beliefs and his actions.

My IC suggested that in the letter I ask him what he thinks a good marriage is, what it looks like, how it feels. Ask him to elaborate on his line about "resurrecting what was once a good marriage". What was it that made it good? How does he think it can be resurrected? What are our choices?

This is where I get stuck. He is choosing to believe that he doesn't have a choice, that he is an observer and not a participant. So, how do I communicate that without it being a DJ, or should I not even do that?

I know that I shouldn't try to teach, explain, refute, defend.

I've thought of saying something like:

"H, I hear you choosing to believe that you don't have a choice in this, that you believe the fate of our marriage rests in my hands alone, and that you want me to point you in a direction. You are completely capable of making your own choices. Every day that you remain here in this marriage is your choice."

I don't feel like I am completing my thoughts here.

"I'm afraid there has been too much damage done (I'm overwhelmed and don't know where or how to start) and we would never be able to resurrect what once was a good marriage."

So how do I listen and repeat with filter? How do I respond to that OUCH paragraph.

BTW - the how could you love me after what I have done was my rewrite - not his words. Don't know if that makes a difference.

Lizzie,

"I felt like I couldn’t seem to say the right thing with that."

Would you be able to say the true thing with that?

"H:”That’s because I know you expect me to tell you what I’m feeling and that stuff is mine”.

Me: “So you’re saying that when I share myself with you, you feel like I’m pressuring you to do the same?”

H: “Yes.”

Me: “That’s interesting. Are you asking me to do or not do something?”

H: “Can we just not talk about it”

You know why I want people to set their intent before they choose their actions? Because their intent determines what their brains will hand them, their feelings will signal...and how they view the results.

Sounds to me like you were more in acting for response rather than to your code that day. Sharing is only what you do to hold to your own code. To be and share who you really are. It's how we're close to others without their consent.

LOL

Okay, not really...just sounded spiffy. It is acting intimately, through ownership.

Here's a reply of what I quoted from your post above...done the LA way...

I sent my intent to know, not to change, alter or extract from others...for clarity.

"H:”That’s because I know you expect me to tell you what I’m feeling and that stuff is mine”."

"You perceive I expect you to do what I do...if I share...I expect you to share? I understand that. I lived that way. Reasonable expectation. I'm not sharing because that's part of RH...to not share is to distance, cut off intimacy and betray myself. I would very much like to be shared with. I know you choose what you do and do not share. I'm hearing you feel like if you make what is yours known, then it's not yours anymore, am I close?"

Me: “So you’re saying that when I share myself with you, you feel like I’m pressuring you to do the same?”

H: “Yes.”

You essentially said what I said without sharing, confirming or clarifying what your intent is...when you share. Then you go somewhere else with your response to his "Yes"...will you tell me why?

Me: “That’s interesting. Are you asking me to do or not do something?”

When we put on our straight jackets of respect in the form of "I" statements...your answer would be "I am interested. I have an automatic reaction that you're asking me either to do or not do something. I make what you're saying about myself and reach to solve what isn't mine. I really see that. Thank you."

H: “Can we just not talk about it”

Might have been his answer or not...the more he sees YOU sharing your stuff...about you...not getting him to or not to (interesting parallel to me), the less he will feel engulfed, responsible, taken over and overwhelmed.

You have humor, warmth, generosity and enthusiasm, Lizzie. Know that and use that in how you share your stuff, to really, truly, completely share your stuff.

What you most want to wrench out of someone else, you're least giving. When you give it truly, not to get...reminding you of knowing and being known...not fixing, curing, smoothing...the more peace you will experience, trust, delight and connection you will feel.

Give O&H as a gift to yourself, from yourself...for you.

Clears our filters so we can hear and know more. Not to judge. To know.

(GREAT ownership on the SF...you shared your DJ, owned it and asked about him...and he answered. Would you consider part of the wanting to feel close is you distancing through not sharing your stuff...and when you made that statement, asked, and listened...you felt closer...and he answered?)

Mantra #75 (I'm making up the number you know)...I took what my DH felt, thought, believed, perceived about ME...I did that. I heard "I don't want to talk about this" as "I don't want to connect." My biggest DJ...my own fear of being erased through silence, betrayed by omission...lots of fearsome stuff rose up...cumulatively from my lifetime, not just that moment...so this mantra was important...

"Does my DH fear me? Yes. Does he fear everyone? Essentially, yes. He's not sharing his stuff elsewhere. He fears."

I know...too long to be a real mantra (are there like rules?)...something I had to repeat to myself, inserting other things as well...and now I can't think of them. They came back to fear...fear of conflict, judgment, being defined, degraded, found inadequate...he feared from everyone. Seated me in truth...not about ME...about HIM.

Not rejecting at all...not you doing, him choosing Respect more, know your perception of being shut out is rejection...when in reality, you're not being shut out, you're not being shared with yet. Right now. Just right now.

Share anyway.

Otherwise, he nailed your expectation. You want to get what you give...evenly, when you give it and how you give it. Tons of rejection in that...up your acceptance...use your faith...I will be shared with...I can be feared and it's not about me...I can live to my code and notice when I'm acting based on possible response, not my truth...

And thank yourself for getting your signals, being honest with sharing, not sneaking past yourself...and seeing how much you make your FWH an obstacle to be gotten past, around, pulled in...instead of the human being he is, your best friend, your husband and your partner. He's on your side...your choice to believe that or not...makes a world of difference in you, the rejection, erasing, annihilation and frustration you feel based on if he's a strategic enemy or partner.

I know. I remember.

I see your signal as confusion...when you feel hesitant, confused, maybe have that fragment thought, "No, that's not right" drift through your mind...that's your signal you're into his stuff, not your own. Distrusting self can be projected to distrusting others. See others as rejecting can be a signal you're rejecting you...big part of that feeling was for me, by me...in not sharing.

I, too, struggled with choosing the right words...my speech pattern went from bullet reactivity to turtle slow action...so much so that my DH said, "What's with you? Why are you talking like that?" and my response was, "Because I want to be true in my words, respectful, and it's like learning to speak all over again."

And yeah...it was said slowly.

LOL

I LOVE this journey.

Take the ouch out of his statement, the WS standard fear...and HEAR the fear...so you can clarify that statement...so it's good to know, not guess at.

"Are you saying you fear you've done too much damage to be forgiven, seen as new, as the person you are right now; or are you saying you believe relationships are permanently wrecked by what the partners do? I feel very reactive to what you said...what I heard was that recovery was all for nothing, you weren't really into it and didn't see any benefit in all the work. Wow, did I DJ myself into a storm of pain there or what?"

"I don't want to live reactively anymore. I don't want to betray myself or others. I want to drink fully in acceptance, ownership and freedom...I'm learning some of the way, for my own personal recovery...and I need your help. When I listen and repeat, I'm doing so because of what I just shared...I take your stuff into me and use it as a weapon. I appreciate every time you answer, to confirm or clarify when I repeat...so I can live in reality, not this lifetime of me assuming, mindreading, striving to love out of others...when I've been loved all the time."

Do you know what making others our confidante entails? It is us sharing...does not depend on them remembering, aiding, reminding, solving or fixing...we choose to confide...no one makes us. And no one keeps score for us. I stopped making DH my enemy by choosing to make him my confidante...and the funny thing was, that after a torrentially verbal life together, I found I had a lot less to say. When I shared my true self, a little went a long way for me...for the first time.

Can't see that here, eh? Hey, it took time! ROFL.

To personally recover, separate from marital recovery...you must focus here on Lizzie...her stuff...self-discovery...and you've been doing a lot of that. Easy to get distracted, get your focus on all him...when he's back in your life...self-discovery is easier when the drug was gone...not's it's right there, Lizzie...and your choice to not reach for it ups your level of awareness even more.

They say God works in mysterious ways...I don't think they're that mysterious at all. I think God works.

About ressurecting the good marriage...

Was it really that close, connected, full of O&H and sharing selves, self-discovery and ownership? Or was it the best either of you had ever known before, had knowledge about, in your lives? Can you guys embrace the idea you two can't even contemplate what a thriving, connected, humming respect, vibrant marriage even looks like? I couldn't. No bash here. I had no idea on this earth...

Begins and ends with side by side...so remember, Lizzie, this is just right now...not forever...otherwise you're doing what he is about too much damage...isn't possible with humans...we are new every day...except those days we tell ourselves we are not...and we're new, anyway.

LA

LA said:
About ressurecting the good marriage...

Was it really that close, connected, full of O&H and sharing selves, self-discovery and ownership? Or was it the best either of you had ever known before, had knowledge about, in your lives? Can you guys embrace the idea you two can't even contemplate what a thriving, connected, humming respect, vibrant marriage even looks like? I couldn't. No bash here. I had no idea on this earth...

Really Good Point - Ignorance is not really bliss. Bliss is when you know how bad things can be, and how good things can be, and you know they really are good. YOU KNOW THEY ARE.

It's so good to see LA here helping.

I don't have time to go over things point by point - and please forgive me for being so scarce.

This will be short, but hopefully worth your time to read.


Lizzie said:
Where do I want to go and what do I want to do?

I want to recover my marriage. I want to continue my own personal recovery. Two separate things, yet still intertwined. I seem to keep getting blurry about the boundaries of each.

Sometimes it's good to review things we already know, and think on them for a while.

1. Do you have control over your personal recovery?
Please comment if you have time.

2. Do you have control over your marital recovery?
To further dissect this -
Can you control if the marital recovery will actually happen?
Can you control the time table of it - assuming it will happen?
There are elements of recovery - ways to measure it. Can you determine which of these comes first, and so on?

Lizzie said:
First, let me tackle the big issue of family.

This is one of the elements of recovery. Putting the family back together is necessary if there is to be a full recovery. I am aware of families that still struggle years after - and the parents are pretty much recovered.

Having been reading on MB for quite some time, I am worried about the progress of your MARITAL recovery.

If your strength is finite, and his progress slow, you may reach the point where you will no longer wish to try.

I would guess your strength IS finite, and I can see his progress IS slow.

If -
If you can define the elements of recovery.
If you can understand where you are with each element.
If you get him to talk about the elements, and where he thinks you are.
If you can talk to him about your concerns - and why you have them.

To define the elements - look at the things you have written about in your posts and give them a name - and what that area of concern entails. For instance, What would family recovery look like to you?
From the boy's side?
From your H's side?
From your side?

On a scale from one to 37 (what the heck, we use 10 so often - grin) where are things now?

What things will have to happen before you can give this area a high rating? Or in other words, what needs to be different than it is now? Can you see ways to bring this about? Is is something you can discuss with him?


Things that can be defined, can be measured much more easily. It's not that you need to reduce this to numbers, but............ if you can define it, and if you can measure it, you can make a decision.

If there is progress, you continue.

If there is no progress................

Wait, and measure again, until you have enough data to make a decision.

This should help you - and many men respond well to something they can measure - unless they are looking to avoid working on it all together.

In closing - I think it was 2long who said "Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and it dilutes your beer until you almost can't even drink it."

How you doing right now?

SS

PS, I'd hate to think of how long this would have been if I hadn't done the short version. (grin)

(((SS)))

(((LA)))

Lots of food for thought in your posts.

SS, to answer your questions:


1. Do you have control over your personal recovery?
Absolutely. 100%.

2. Do you have control over your marital recovery?
No.
Can you control the time table of it - assuming it will happen?
No.
There are elements of recovery - ways to measure it. Can you determine which of these comes first, and so on?

Not sure what you mean here. I can only do the part that is mine.

If you can define the elements of recovery.
Elements - like in terms of honesty, openness, transparency, trust, POJA, the rules of time, care and protection? Those elements?

If you can understand where you are with each element.
Need to think about that. Quantitatively measuring a qualitative concept, huh?

If you get him to talk about the elements, and where he thinks you are. For the most part, he chooses not to share.

If you can talk to him about your concerns - and why you have them.
I talk to him. I share. He tells me "You worry too much"

As far as the boys - to put it in a nutshell - I know they feel rejected, unimportant, they feel like they were tossed aside like yesterday's garbage. An acknowledgement of that from H, and an apology, might be a starting point.

SS, I'm actually doing fairly well. Thanks for asking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. A very smart lady said "When your focus remains on lack...you cannot experience abundance". That's been my mantra lately with amazing results.

So, anyhoo, here is the letter that I have composed to my H in response to his letter (much has been plagiarized from LA!). It is submitted for your tweaking pleasure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

Thanking you all in advance.

Honey,

Over the past year, I have committed myself to making changes in me, for me. For most of my life, my actions have been reactions, based on expectations, fears, or hopes. I believed in giving to get and concepts like justifying, blame, deserving, should, always, never, and a tit for tat system of scorekeeping. I have been working really hard on changing my perspectives and choosing my beliefs, choosing my words and my actions in order to remain true to myself, true to my beliefs.

I don’t want to live reactively anymore. I don’t want to betray myself or others. I want to live in reality, in truth and acceptance, to completely own my choices. I’m learning to do that for my own personal recovery…and I need your help. The other day you told me that you perceive that I expect you to do what I do – that if I share my thoughts and feelings with you that I expect you to do the same. I understand that. I lived that way, the giving to get that I mentioned earlier. I choose to share my thoughts and feelings with you because that is in keeping with my code of being radically honest. If I don’t share with you, I am distancing myself and cutting off intimacy. I would very much like to be shared with. I know you choose what you do and do not share. I’m hearing that you feel like if you make what is yours known, then it’s not yours anymore; or that you fear you will be told it’s wrong, or that you need to change it. Am I close?

In your letter, I heard that when I share my concerns or fears with you (like I did about our finances or about the doctor visits), that you believe that I am attacking you or accusing you; that you believe that I am rejecting you. Is that correct? I am trying to listen and repeat so that you can confirm or clarify for me what it is that I heard. I appreciate every time you answer me; it helps me to live in reality and not get caught up in assuming or mind reading. So often, I have an automatic reaction that you are asking me either to do or not do something. I make what you are saying about myself and try to solve what isn’t mine. I can really see that. Thank you.

I'm thinking maybe the past few months have been too little too late. Maybe there has been too much damage done and we would never be able to resurrect what once was a good marriage. I am incredibly sorry for that. Losing you would be a very deep emotional wound for me that I am sure would never completely heal. I do love you, no matter how this turns out. I am not saying that I want to leave. I am also not saying that I completely want to stay. I am very much on the fence at this point. If you have a strong opinion one way or the other I would probably not try to sway it. I know that you need to work on your relationship with the boys, especially Logan, and that would probably be easier without me here. Sometimes I think you direct anger toward Logan that is really meant for me. I do not like seeing you unhappy, and I know I am the cause of it.

Are you saying that you fear you’ve done too much damage to be forgiven, to be seen as the person you are right now, the person who chose to end his affair and move back home; or are you saying that you believe relationships are permanently destroyed by what the partners do? Do you believe that other people cause, control, or cure your behavior, or feelings, or make your choices for you? I hear you choosing to believe that you don’t have a choice in this, that you believe the fate of our marriage rests in my hands alone.

This whole recovery has many facets. There is my own personal recovery and I am completely responsible for that. Your presence has been a tremendous help for me.

Then there is our marital recovery. Each of us responsible for our half. My letter was to ask you to partner with me in exploring what we could do together, side by side, to have a happy and thriving marriage. You spoke of “resurrecting what was once a good marriage”. Was it really that good, really open and honest, and if so, how did your affair happen? Could it be that it was just the best either of us had ever known before? Is it possible for us to build a better marriage, a stronger marriage? What would a marriage like that look like? How would it feel? What are our options? That is what I was asking you in my letter.

You know how I feel about any kind of counseling and so that was something I really needed to think about .

Could you tell me again how you feel about counseling? I didn’t hear that you reached a decision. Did I miss it?

Finally, there is our family recovery. Your relationship with the boys is yours, mine is mine. I am working very hard to keep my focus on me and my relationships with them. I admit that sometimes it is a struggle for me. I wrestle with my old beliefs that I have the power to “fix” things all by myself.

I value your presence. Each day that you choose to continue in this marriage is a gift. I cherish the sound of your voice, your touch, and your kiss. I appreciate all of the things that you do for me – making my coffee in the morning, starting my car, calling during the day to say hello, the times you make dinner or do the grocery shopping. I choose to love you and to remain married to you, to commit myself to my own recovery and to the recovery of our marriage. Every day, every hour, every minute, and every second, I make that choice.

Your letter made me cry!!
Wow!!!

Nice job.

I follow your thread all the time, but never have anything profound to add ... you remind me so much of my own sitch!


-AmI.

(((AmI))

Thanks. I follow yours as well for the same reason. So many times I read your posts and think "Wow! That could have been written by me". I am learning from you by osmosis!

As for the letter to H, I have been composing it for quite some time. I still want to add more.

Specifically, I need to address the issue of the marital recovery. My IC and I discussed this. A marriage is a contract between 2 people. You meet someone and if you fill up each other's love banks, meet each other's EN's, if your values and beliefs align or can co-exist, you choose to have that person as your partner. Conscious decision.

Same thing with marital recovery after an affair. I think this may be what SS was saying, too. At some point, you need to evaluate how the recovery is going. Is there progress? Are your needs being met?

I guess what it all boils down to is clarifying my boundaries. I can do my part for as long as I choose to. At some point, there needs to be some reciprocity. If H continues to refuse to share or counsel, at some point, I guess that will no longer be enough for me.

Am I making any sense? How do I state that? I am struggling with finding the words - and here's the real meat of the issue - because I am afraid that it will be perceived as a threat - even though I know I have no control over that. And then I wonder if maybe I just have this unrealistic expectation.

So, I'm still seeking (no pun SS!) clarity on that.

Thanks for checking in on me AmI. I am grateful for your presence here.

Yes, you need to evaluate where you are in recovery. You need it for you.

If you evaluate every few months, and you see improvement, you will find the strength. However, if you run on emotion (which you usually don't do BTW) or how you feel TODAY then you can think it is going badly based on FEEL.

List the elements that are important to you - you can use Harleys emotional needs list as a basis. Then determine where you feel he is at meeting each one of them. Write it down.

When you look at it in two months, and in 4 months, or whatever time period you set, you will have a much better idea of what is happening.

Make notes as to why you feel it is what it is.

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

For instance, family commitment is a big one right now. You would want to make notes as to why you rated it a 3 out of 10 or whatever you would rate it.

Again, the big reason I suggest this is to enable you to know where you are. If there is steady improvement, you will hang in a lot longer, and won't feel so bad about temporary set backs. If there is no improvement, you will know it's time to change what you are doing, or time to cut your losses.

There are elements of recovery - ways to measure it. Can you determine which of these comes first, and so on?

"Not sure what you mean here. I can only do the part that is mine."

Some of these things are not nearly so important to you as others. The most important needs should be what you (and he) concentrate on. He ought to know the order you place them in - and you do have an order, even if you haven't written it down. It would be good for you to know also, and it will help you understand why your reactions are what they are when he does things that hurt. I bet sometimes you seem fine, and other times it seems to be all that you can do to stay with him. Importance, or ranking of importance usually plays a big part in this.

The other thing, and we have mentioned it before -
All of us see and understand things differently. He hasn't been reading on MB for years. He has read the books? Understands the concepts?
If the answer is no, then he won't get much of what you try to communicate with him about what you need for recovery. If he refuses to learn the concepts, that is another clue as to how recovery is going/will go.

When the world changes, we can adapt, or perish. He changed the world of your marriage, and now it seems like he wants to pretend it's the same as it was. Things can't go back to what they were - and he can adapt (learn what he needs to do, and do it) or perish. I don't know if he gets that yet.

Your letter is very kind, and I believe it's well written. I still worry he won't get it. I might tend to bash him more if I was writing it. (grin)

If he does what he needs to do, I bet the boys will come along fine, and that relationship will be fine over time. I see you doing well in personal recovery, and doing all you can to aid marital recovery. He can come, or not.

Your happiness does not depend on what he decides.

Knowing where you are, and how you personally are doing should give you personal power. It should make a big difference in how happy you are each day.

I hope you "whistle while you work."

SS

Hi SS. I think that you are right. I think that there are parts of my letter that my H may not "get"; I am choosing to share anyway.

He has asked me about when he can expect a response to his letter. I told him I am still working on it; that I want my response to be complete and accurate.

I still want to address the marital recovery. There is some very small, very slow progress. We don't talk about anything that is M or A related however. Sometimes I feel as though we are living as brother and sister. There has been no SF for 6 weeks.(And yes LA, I share my thoughts and feelings about the A and our M - but there is no discussion).

I have asked him to counsel with SH. I have asked him to read the books. They are out in plain view, so he could look at them any time he chose to. SH asked him to read the books. He has access to all of the same information that I do. He is not willing to discuss anything that has to do with the A or repairing our M.. He says that we are getting along "fine" and that is enough. "Things are going good". When he says that, I agree that we are getting along. I state that we have always gotten along very well. We enjoy spending time together, but I am longing to feel more connected, more intimate.

I said that back in September when we were negotiating the terms of our reconciliation. I used your line about "I can be friends with just about anyone. I want more than that in a marriage..." and I proceeded to list those things.

When the world changes, we can adapt, or perish. He changed the world of your marriage, and now it seems like he wants to pretend it's the same as it was. Things can't go back to what they were - and he can adapt (learn what he needs to do, and do it) or perish. I don't know if he gets that yet.

That is kind of how I would like to word that in my letter to him. I know I can't make him get it.

I have thought of adding this in my letter:

Then there is our marital recovery. Each of us responsible for our half. My letter was to ask you to partner with me in exploring what we could do together, side by side, to have a happy and thriving marriage. You spoke of “resurrecting what was once a good marriage”. Was it really that good, really open and honest, and if so, then how did your affair happen? Could it be that it was just the best either of us had ever known before? Is it possible for us to build a better marriage, a stronger marriage? What would a marriage like that look like? How would it feel? What are our options? That is what I was asking you in my letter. Join me. Be my partner in building a marriage where we are both happy and both of our needs are being met. I am working on myself personally, and working on my part of the marriage. Each day I ask myself if that is enough for me. So far, right now, today, it is. I know that I want is a marriage that is brimming with love and respect, honesty and sharing. I told you that when we discussed reconciliation in September. What we have right now will not always be enough. I would love to know what is is that you want in a marriage.

When two people decide to get married, it is because they both believe that what they expect out of marriage, what they need out of marriage, and what they believe marriage is - the rewards and the responsibilities - is essentially the same. I would never choose to knowingly marry someone whose beliefs are not along the same lines as mine. The whole courtship is about learning about each other, sharing information, gathering information, determining goals, both short and long term. You ask yourself, is this the person that I want to partner with in life? Do we have the same set of values and ideals? The same goals?

Ok, I'm rambling here and this is way too long.

Hopefully, you can see where it is I am trying to go with this.

Do I say this all again?

If so, how?

I see where you are going just fine. It's helping HIM see it.

Is it possible for us to build a better marriage, a stronger marriage? What would a marriage like that look like? How would it feel? What are our options? That is what I was asking you in my letter. Join me. Be my partner in building a marriage where we are both happy and both of our needs are being met.

When he reads this, will he tend to say "I AM HELPING, OR TRYING TO HELP. If what I am doing isn't enough, will it ever be?"

You know him best.
What does he respond to. What things does he NOT respond to.
What motivates him?
He does not enjoy counseling, or deep talks.
What does equal closeness, and marital happiness to him?

Are there ways to word this that would mean more to him, and be closer to his view of success in marriage?

Would it work to say something like "If I understand correctly, this will be a wonderful marriage FOR YOU if we have this, and this, and this.
FOR ME THOUGH, it requires this, and this, and this.

Can you help us find a way for both of us to get what we want out of our relationship?

Now, what worries me, is that you have said this before, and not gotten a really good response. Or you have mostly said it.

I am not really wanting you to use what I am saying, but to think of him, and see if you can think of a way to reach him on his own turf. You know him much better than we do, and I am hoping you may think of something. I believe some of the differences are normal Mars/Venus things. I think some of them are that your needs are different from his. However (and this is what you worry about, as expressed above) some if it may be that his VALUES are different from yours. That last one is what you must determine, and the answer will play a big part in your recovery, or lack of the same.

Do you have any friends in the wood working business? Some here say that 2X4's work well. There are methods, and then, there are methods.

How was your weekend?
(I am trying to find out what your energy level is like, and how "UP" you are. That's my way of getting some of the information out of you.)

Laughter comes easy today? Or hard?

If "Dance the night away" came on the radio, you would want to dance?

You smile when you read these attempts at humor?

If yes, my work here is done for awhile. (grin)

SS

How was your weekend?

Weekend was very good; energy level high; feeling up most of the time.

Laughter comes easy today? Or hard?

Easy.

If "Dance the night away" came on the radio, you would want to dance?

All night long.

You smile when you read these attempts at humor?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


If yes, my work here is done for awhile. (grin)

Sleep well, SS. And thanks.

Hi, Lizzie,

Glad you're weekend was good, mine was interesting...still trying to make it uncover here...

He's getting moody and I'm SOOO ready for him to be served...

Anyway, I'm SO HAPPY that you are doing well!

Feeling pretty good today.

I was doing that evaluation thing. I have been reading over my threads and reading my journals, and you know, things are going pretty well.

Our recovery isn't really as slow as I thought it was. When I rated those elements of recovery above, most are fairly high. The low numbers are in the categories of family support (but that is only if I fixate on my H's relationship with the boys) and the open and honesty category. This is not that my H is lying or being deceptive. I have access to all accounts, passwords, cell phone, and PO box. It is rated low because he has not yet chosen to share his feelings with me. I think this may still take some time. You know, when we were first together, H was very reserved at first. And according to his family, he pretty much kept to himself all of his life. While with me, they noticed a big change for the better in him - they said he was more open, more relaxed, and happier in general. Maybe this reticence of his is just the result of the trauma of the A. Either way, it is H's to work out if he chooses. I am working on me, and my sharing level has gone way up, and I am expressing more in the way of gratitude and admiration. My H has begun taking on a lot of household stuff again - cooking, laundry, shopping and seems to enjoy it. I am genuinely thrilled with that and have told him so.

Every Sunday, I make a big pot of soup or stew. We call it Sunday Soup. I had to work this past Sunday, so when I came home, my H had made a pot of soup. He was so proud of himself and kind of got all red in the face over my reaction. He said "Geez honey, it's just soup." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So I guess those little things are all the pieces of recovery. LA's line about not experiencing abundance when you focus on lack is so much a part of me these days. I keep it with me all of the time, conciously choosing to focus on abundance. What a gift that is to me LA. My most sincere thanks.

The Mars/Venus concept is a very good point actually. I am finding that my staying out of H's stuff is a very good thing. I see him more willing to open up and connect on his own terms.

I am going to finish a paper today, and hopefully I will post my letter to my H. I am pretty much finished with it.

Thanks for your continued care and concern.

OK, here's the final draft of my response letter to H. He has been asking for it for quite a while now, so I really don't want to put it off any longer.

"Honey,

Over the past year, I have committed myself to making changes in me, for me. For most of my life, my actions have been reactions, based on expectations, fears, or hopes. I believed in giving to get and concepts like justifying, blame, deserving, should, always, never, and a tit for tat system of scorekeeping. I have been working really hard on changing my perspectives and choosing my beliefs, choosing my words and my actions in order to remain true to myself, true to my beliefs.

I don’t want to live reactively anymore. I don’t want to betray myself or others. I want to live in reality, in truth and acceptance, to completely own my choices. I’m learning to do that for my own personal recovery…and I need your help. A couple of weeks ago you told me that you perceive that I expect you to do what I do – that if I share my thoughts and feelings with you that I expect you to do the same. I understand that. I lived that way, the giving to get that I mentioned earlier. I choose to share my thoughts and feelings with you because that is in keeping with my code of being radically honest. If I don’t share with you, I am distancing myself and cutting off intimacy. I would very much like to be shared with. I know you choose what you do and do not share. I’m hearing that you feel like if you make what is yours known, then it’s not yours anymore; or that you fear you will be told it’s wrong, or that you need to change it. Am I close?

In your letter, I heard that when I share my concerns or fears with you (like I did about our finances or about the doctor visits), that you believe that I am attacking you or accusing you; that you believe that I am rejecting you. Is that correct? I am trying to listen and repeat so that you can confirm or clarify for me what it is that I heard. I appreciate every time you answer me; it helps me to live in reality and not get caught up in assuming or mind reading. So often, I have an automatic reaction that you are asking me either to do or not do something. I make what you are saying about myself and try to solve what isn’t mine. I can really see that. Thank you.

I'm thinking maybe the past few months have been too little too late. Maybe there has been too much damage done and we would never be able to resurrect what once was a good marriage. I am incredibly sorry for that. Losing you would be a very deep emotional wound for me that I am sure would never completely heal. I do love you, no matter how this turns out. I am not saying that I want to leave. I am also not saying that I completely want to stay. I am very much on the fence at this point. If you have a strong opinion one way or the other I would probably not try to sway it. I know that you need to work on your relationship with the boys, especially Logan, and that would probably be easier without me here. Sometimes I think you direct anger toward Logan that is really meant for me. I do not like seeing you unhappy, and I know I am the cause of it.

Are you saying that you fear you’ve done too much damage to be forgiven, to be seen as the person you are right now, the person who chose to end his affair and move back home; or are you saying that you believe relationships are permanently destroyed by what the partners do? I hear you choosing to believe that you don’t have a choice in this, that you believe the fate of our marriage rests in my hands alone. I hear that you believe that you are responsible for my feelings of happiness or unhappiness. Does that mean that you also believe that other people are responsible for your feelings? Do you believe that other people cause, control, or cure your behavior, or feelings, or make your choices for you?

This whole recovery has many facets. There is my own personal recovery and I am completely responsible for that. Your presence has been a tremendous help for me.

Then there is our marital recovery. Each of us responsible for our half. My letter was to ask you to partner with me in exploring what we could do together, side by side, to have a happy and thriving marriage. You spoke of “resurrecting what was once a good marriage”. Was it really that good, really open and honest, and if so, how did your affair happen? Could it be that it was just the best either of us had ever known before? Is it possible for us to build a better marriage, a stronger marriage? What would a marriage like that look like? How would it feel? What are our options? What do you believe is a good marriage? What does it take to be a good husband? A good wife? It’s like starting from scratch. A new opportunity to do it over, do it better. A brand new start. We can’t change the past or predict the future. The present, right now is our only reality. I choose daily to live in the present, in reality, in staying where I have power and choice – in myself.

Here is what I believe. Your affair changed our marriage forever. We can never get back to that, not would I want to because it was obviously not strong enough to withstand an outside intruder. I have great fear that if we don’t learn how to protect ourselves, it will happen again. That is what I was saying to you in my letter.



You know how I feel about any kind of counseling and so that was something I really needed to think about .
Could you tell me again how you feel about counseling? I didn’t hear that you reached a decision. Did I miss it?

Finally, there is our family recovery. Your relationship with the boys is yours, mine is mine. I am working very hard to keep my focus on me and my relationships with them. I admit that sometimes it is a struggle for me. I wrestle with my old beliefs that I have the power to “fix” things all by myself, but I know that is not true. Your apology to Logan meant so much to me. I am truly grateful for that because Logan has told me how much it meant to him.

I value your presence. Each day that you choose to continue in this marriage is a gift. I cherish the sound of your voice, your touch, and your kiss. I appreciate all of the things that you do for me – making my coffee in the morning, starting my car, calling during the day to say hello, the times you make dinner or do the grocery shopping. I choose to love you and to remain married to you, to commit myself to my own recovery and to the recovery of our marriage. Every day, every hour, every minute, and every second, I make that choice.

That’s my part and really all that I can do. What’s mine is mine, what’s yours is yours. Both of us completely competent and able to make our own choices.

Thank you for choosing to share your thoughts and feelings with me in your letter. You have told me how uncomfortable it makes you feel, yet you chose to do it anyway. I am enormously grateful for that."

Things have been improving day by day. H spoke with YS last weekend and apologized to him for the damage done by his A. H told me and I replied that I was very happy to hear that as I knew that it was very important to YS. Sharing is on the rise as well. I have been doing it sooo much more and H has shared a couple of things this week about feelings and stuff. I am validating his efforts. So, that's where we are right now. Planning a weekend away this weekend and really looking forward to it.

Still working with my IC. She is very good at picking up on things that I am doing "right" that I don't even seem to really notice. She is very validating.

All in all, things are good. I still struggle occasionally with thoughts of H and OW. I drove by her empty house this past week and breathed a huge sigh of relief. I KNOW that she alone was not responsible for the A, and that my H could choose contact whether she is right down the road or 2 continents away, BUT, I still FEEL an enormous amount of relief.

You take this weekend, and I'll take the next.

We're going to a cabin in the mountains. How about you guys?

As you know, recovery is a process, not an event. Pretty much like most everything else in our lives.

I am glad you see progress, I believe you needed that glimpse of the big picture.

Your IC is wise to point out your progress. From where I sit, it looks like you are doing very well. You have fears, but you manage them........... and that's what it's all about. All of us have doubts/fears. It's what we do with them that makes the difference.

I think LA had a hard time with this for a while, but I believe she knows it now. She is another good example.

Here's to a great weekend. We want a report of your feelings when you return.

I hope you dance.

SS

Back from Atlantic City. Had a really good time donating to the various casinos <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!!

It was a good weekend away. The closeness felt a little more natural and more spontaneous than it has been.

I don't know if that makes sense or not. In trying to choose my words carefully, trying to not be reactive, sometimes it feels a little forced or slow. It is getting a lot easier, but I don't feel like I have completely integrated that into "me".

One conversation that we had stands out in particular. On the way home H was saying how he really didn't want to go back to work on Wednesday and how much he had come to hate his job and all of the people there. We talked a little bit about that and he shared a lot of what he was feeling. I thanked him for sharing with me, told him it was good to have him "confide" in me again. What was hard was that I kept thinking how much H had always loved his job. Once his A was exposed, he lost a lot of respect from the company manager and president. Many of his co-workers were also shocked and upset with H. Those of you who followed my thread remember that H's affair was with a co-worker there that was known as the town ho.

She worked in shipping. Well, last summer after she quit, another young girl took her place. My H is also in charge of the shipping department so is often there. He told me that over the summer he "got into trouble" by his boss for "spending too much time in shipping". It sounded to me like they were keeping an eye on him because they had lost faith in him.

I think that's the problem in a nutshell. H ruined his credibility and his reputation at work. He is no longer treated like the valued employee he used to be. They no longer ask for his input on evaluations nor has he gotten his annual raise. He is choosing not to ask why.

Of course, H would never say that this is related to the A. He sees himself as a victim and doesn't know why he is being treated like this. He says that the boss has changed and is "too full of himself these days".

I struggle with what to say to him. My thoughts are mine, and I even think that maybe I am DJing him with these thoughts. I did say that I appreciate him staying at his job because the money there is good. He said that he has no choice. This is where I did my little drive-by. I told him he did have a choice. He said he didn't because we can't afford for him to take a lower paying job. I said, I'm hearing you say that you are choosing to stay in a job that you don't like because it allows us to meet our financial obligations. Is that correct? He said, no, I don't have a choice. I said, yes, I can see that that is what you are choosing to believe. He shook his head, leaned over and kissed me and got out of the car to use the restroom. End of conversation.

And I still haven't sent him the letter yet. I read it over again and again and have yet to hit the send button. Not sure why.

My thoughts are mine, and I even think that maybe I am DJing him with these thoughts.

We have to find a line between DJ's and staying in limbo.

I believe we do have to judge.
Oh, we should be careful, and not do it on the spur of the moment, but we do need to have an opinion about things. You can't afford to grant everyone "sainthood" in your mind, just because you don't have every fact needed to be totally accurate.

We can get off track in both directions if we are not careful.

We need to give others "the benefit of the doubt" much of the time, but not when doing it affects our feelings for the person because in the back of our mind we know there are reasons for our doubt.

Glad you had a good time. I believe we will also.

I wish it was tomorrow evening, becasue I'd be gone already.

BTW, I was just talking, not trying to tell you to change anything.

SS