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Stay where you have choice and power...actively .
I have been doing this since I read your post, LA. Living in truth....
Not making any rash decisions.
I am finding it a relief in a way.
I have had the opportunity to make several O&H statments lately.
Our anniversary was the 18th. I got H a card that was perfect....
it said something like "today, I am remembering all of the good things about our life, the things that brought us together, and the things that make me love you..." you get the idea.
H hadn't gotten me a card but did take the day off to spend with me and took me out to lunch. At lunch, I said "H, you seemed really surprised to get a card from me today."
He replied that lately he was so confused, not knowing what was going to happen with us, not knowing what to do.
I replied that I understood, that I often have trouble knowing what to DO when I don't know the outcome, but I am working on being true to myself and choosing my actions. I told him that I love him and am choosing to act accordingly. I thanked him for sharing his feelings with me, for taking the day off, and for lunch.
When we got home, he ran into town and came back with a beautiful ILY anniversary card for me. A lovely surprise.
So many opportunities like that, and I have taken most of them. Some of them slipped by without my notice until later, but overall, doing better.
I still have to check out that website LA. Have been crazy with work and school and the holidays!!!
I am working the early part of the shift this morning so I thought I would check in and wish all a very Merry Christmas.
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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Lizzie,
His comment about "none of your business what he was doing when you were apart...." GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! IF you are going to stay married to this man you deserve to know anything and everything about him including what makes him tick. If what makes him tick is cybersex, swinging, wife swapping, etc then there isn't much chance of having a "real marriage" like I suppose you want. YOU are married to the person's character and it sounds as if his is truly lacking now (past?). He is playing with fire. He believes he can fill whatever large void is inside of him with sex, multiple partners, excitement, danger, etc. HE CAN'T. Your WH/H has a spiritual problem that cannot be solve by external stimulants. This in my opinion is where his healing starts and ends
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The end of the 3 months trial period is on the 30th.
Tomorrow is 1 year since D-day.
I've been checking out recoverynation.com
Addiction vs. entitlement? Is there a difference? Is one part of the other?
I'm still feeling very unsure.
I was thinking of writing H another letter. But then, I wonder what I could say in a letter that I haven't said already.
I'm not sure how to start or in which direction to go.
I do know that I don't want the 30th to come and go without recognizing that it represents the end of our 3 month trial period.
How about this?
"Well, H, it is the 3oth today. The end of our trial period. I'm not sure what to say or what direction I even want to go in. How are you feeling about things? What would you like to do? How do you think we should proceed?"
DJ here - he'll say that things are fine and going well. And that's where my O&H statements will come in...
...which will be good practice for me.
I just don't know.
Other than this inner turmoil that I am feeling today, I have been feeling pretty good for the most part.
I'm still digging around though. Haven't found anything new. And the keylogger is still on. H has not asked me to remove it. He basically looks at his ebay and his email accounts and checks on the Mets. He does not look at either of the email accounts that were hooked up to the porn groups.
The lack of trust is very hard for me.
He went shopping on the Friday before Christmas while I was working and came back empty handed. Said he couldn't find what he was looking for and had to go back out on Saturday. He does the same thing every year. This year I was really suspicious about where he might have been and even found myself wondering what he might really have been up to in past years.
It's awful how the mind works and imagines and projects when there isn't complete honesty in a relationship.
And yes, I know it is my choice to let all of that eat at me. I am still trying to figure out how to stop it. But then, a part of me tells me that those are the voices of my little villagers sending out a cry of warning, trying to protect me.
I am in need of some perspective and guidance here.
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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He isn't looking at porn...that's HUGE, Lizzie.
H&P made a very valid point about his SA...and I believe it's SA, also. My H is an SA...a recovering SA...it's not terminal.
And yes, entitlement (fueled by resentment and lack of respect) is part of the addictive cycle and process.
Your three month trial is almost up...what do YOU think? Do you want a six month extension? What is he not doing which is a change (like having an affair or contacting OW or a new OW)...and what is he doing that's different?
Weigh all of it...and what you're doing and not doing...for clarity, not judgment.
Your little villagers come from fear...and you're choosing to live from love. Love is NOT blind...not ignorant. You're checking reality well...know that. That's all your villagers need to hear. Don't choose to live from fear, please.
Natural reaction, though...and what did he say when you asked where he was...and stated your perception was he did that every year...go out, come home empty handed...go out the next day with different results.
Be open to what he says...no DJs...share where your head went and why it went there...
That's intimacy, Lizzie...being brave, true and owning your vulnerability. How ya doing with that, btw?
Thanks for reminding me about our two-year probation period..supposed to decide if we're gonna stayed married now that it's up...it was up on 12-15...oops. Busy having a grandbaby, I guess.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I'm thrilled to say, no matter what DH decides, I'm in for the long haul. We got to see our grandbaby being born...together!!! OMG...it's still hitting me. All that was lost, regained, into abundance. Wow.
Guess I know my decision. I'll let you know his. Again, thanks for the reminder.
Btw, our MC had us commit to working on the marriage for two years...closing those temporary exits. First we contracted for three months, then six and then the full two years (counting the time as time served)...
You're recovering, Lizzie. Scary. True.
LA
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I am in need of some perspective and guidance here.
Ok -
1. God loves you. That's worth a lot.
2. Your choices have not gone away .
3. Chips and Salsa are pretty good if you are in the mood.
4. If you are still having problems, see # 2.
5. One of the reasons Dr Harley had to write HNHN, and LB's is because people are different, and don't understand the other's needs and now to meet them. Read your last post again with this in mind.
6. People can change if they want to.
7. You wonder if he wants to.
I think it all comes down to number 7 for you, doesn't it?
It takes two or three months to see trends. Sometimes longer. You can keep going, or you can look at it and make other choices.
Simple - Eh?
SS
I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
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Arrgh, I just typed a great big long update and I lost it all.
This will be much shorter.
We are recovering.
I am recovering.
Our deadline for our "trail period" passed. I asked H how he was feeling. I got a lot more than the "fine" I expected.
And then H asked ME how I was feeling about things! That was HUGE.
I used all of my I statements. I have been doing that very well lately. Even when I am afraid, I do it anyway. I share.
I weighed everything like you suggested LA.
What is H doing? What is he NOT doing?
He is still not looking at porn. He said he wanted to, but wasn't because I have a problem with it. He said he doesn't understand what my problem with it is, but he hasn't done it out of respect for my feelings. I told him about not feeling safe, and how it makes me feel as though he is bringing other people into our M, and I thanked him for the care and protection.
He has not objected to or asked me to remove the keylogger. I tell him when I check it. I tell him how appreciative I am of his willingness to be transparent.
Likewise, I have also told him how his refusal to talk about the past year makes me feel unsafe.
Bit by bit, he is more loving, more caring, and a little more open. Maybe he is feeling a little safer? Knowing that I know what I know about the past year, and knowing that I am choosing to love him, choosing the M? He knows that because I tell him.
I still struggle to stay out of his stuff, but I'm doing it.
I am better at speaking up, speaking the truth, even when I feel scared. Sometimes, I am afraid of rocking the boat, or stirring things up, but I speak anyway so as not to betray myself.
He still says things like I forced him into counseling, the past year is none of my business, it doesn't count, I pushed him away. His truth. Sometimes I bite my tongue, so strong is my impulse to refute or defend myself. But I listen and repeat. And I speak my truth. Without judging him or dismissing his truth. Tough stuff. Sometimes, I can actually see his fear.
I keep telling myself that I can't cause, control, or cure.
I am working on me.
But I still worry about doing this RIGHT. Old habits die hard sometimes!!
Still struggling with some things. I will post as they arise for feedback.
SS, thanks for # 2. I tell myself that every day. It is true. It helps.
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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Lizzie,
Thank you for the update!!
"I still struggle to stay out of his stuff, but I'm doing it."
To work around the negating "but"...I like to phrase it this way..."Feels like a struggle; I'm doing, anyway."
Acknowledges, doesn't negate. Just a tip.
"I am better at speaking up, speaking the truth, even when I feel scared. Sometimes, I am afraid of rocking the boat, or stirring things up, but I speak anyway so as not to betray myself."
Same here...what are the signals (emotions) you get when choosing to do this...speak, stay present, share...which you can choose to see as rocking the boat or stirring things up...your choice of perspective...which ones is truer for you?
"He still says things like I forced him into counseling, the past year is none of my business, it doesn't count, I pushed him away. His truth. Sometimes I bite my tongue, so strong is my impulse to refute or defend myself. But I listen and repeat. And I speak my truth. Without judging him or dismissing his truth. Tough stuff. Sometimes, I can actually see his fear."
And you listen and hand back his words as you understand them, or with your filter attached? "I hear you choose to continue to believe I had the pwoer to force you into counseling? Good to know."
Best way is not to bite tongue (tongue is innocent...just the messenger)...best way is to be even more honest, "I feel like refuting, changing how you believe right now. I'm choosing not to. I respect your choice of what you believe."
Use the refute or defend signals as alerts of how you're filtering his stuff...and I see you remind yourself...which is great..how about examining the defend signal for identifying where the attack is being perceived? We don't feel one without the other...and it's a great way to link when you feel attacked by FWH now...to other times, long before FWH, back to FOO and in between, when you've perceived the same way.
What a blessing to be safe to be shared with...wow. And your expectation of "fine" got sabotaged. LOL! Yippee!! I'm all for blowing our secret expectations out of the water...where they can be seen!
Seeing his fear will help you to see your own...which is how we get to mutuality...and know that's what is transpiring right now, from your choice, to live in respect and honor. How are you with loving yourself right now? Are you noticing what you do for your marriage, you do for yourself?
So great to see you...know you're reading other threads...being great to yourself...and that you've consciously chosen to extend your marital deadline...for how long? What's the new agreement?
Hmmm?
How are your kids? What are you sharing with them? Using O&H? Listen and repeat? Hmmm...inquiring minds wanna know.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
((((((Lizzie))))))) which means, "She Who Rocks!"
LA
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Hi Lizzy !! Hi LA !
I keep telling myself that I can't cause, control, or cure.
I am working on me.
How it this project coming?
I've been working on ME for a long time. Sometimes I make progress, sometimes I slip back. Mostly progress, and my W seems to like that. I learned early on, that I couldn't change her, only me. Over time, she has responded to my changes. We still have our days, but then, she does live with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You say you are still struggling with some things. That made me smile a really big smile. I bet you are. I just bet.
You talk about him, and how he is doing, and you, and some things you worry about.
You leave out if you are mostly happy. And, if you are feeling better about your chances........ or worse.
Oh, I know you give hints, but it would be so nice to have you discuss that part of things.
LA brought up the kids - How are they" Work? Your health? Christmas was???
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SS
I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
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Hi LA and SS!!
To reply to some of your questions:
What's the new agreement?
No time limit this time. I am living day to day. That's a good thing for the most part - leaves little room for worry or projection. I am reluctant to make plans however. H just asked about a weekend away in March. I told him that March felt like it was a long time off and that I was uncomfortable making plans, that I would think about it.
The feeling unsafe thing has been on my mind a lot lately.
Am I mostly happy?
I would say yes. When my son graduated in December, one of the speaker's quoted Abraham Lincoln - "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be" - and that has stayed with me.
I am choosing...
...to be happy ...to remain married ...to love my H ...to stay where I have power and choice ...to not worry or predict ...to trust myself ...to be open and honest
How are the boys?
Adjusting.
Youngest son is going to counseling. He has decided that he does not want a relationship with my H. He does not interact with him at all. He is still mad that H has not acknowledged his feelings. Counselor has asked him if he thinks writing a letter would help, but he is not wanting to do that. He still has occasional blow-ups, but for the most part, he is doing very well.
Oldest son has nothing to do with H. Will not go to counseling. Still angry at H, but it no longer comes out directed at me.
Neither of the boys will eat dinner at the dinner table anymore because H is there. They eat in their rooms. This is very hard for me. I have always insisted on eating dinner together as a family and we have done that for the past 30 years, no matter who the family consisted of - me and just the kids, or all of us - H included. I am respecting their feelings, allowing them their space. I miss having dinner with them.
My daughter has written a letter to my H. As far as I know, he has not gotten it yet. She addressed his refusal to acknowledge and apologize to any of the kids and how it makes her feel. She had been staying away, but decided that she was not going to tiptoe around him anymore and came over last night for dinner. She breezed in like she always does, said hello, and even got oldest son to eat dinner at the table with all of us. BIL and SIL were over for dinner as well. It was a wonderful night. H left the table as soon as he was done eating and went back to watching football. Typing this, I realized that maybe he was uncomfortable. I guess I missed an opportunity to say something.
By the way, LA, she has started posting here as magjulnolia and tells me that you have responded to her. Thank you. You rock!!! My daughter is the most amazing person that I know. When we had breakfast together last week, I was telling her about this site and about some of the people who have helped me. I couldn't believe it when she called me this morning to tell me that you had responded to her. I think she'll find a lot of help here.
By the way, LA, I don't think I ever congratulated you on the new grandbaby. CONGRATULATIONS! It is truly an amazing experience to see a child born. I am so grateful that I can be a part of that experience every day. I believe I have the best job in the world.
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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Do you know you'll be OK?
Maybe that is the wrong way to ask. ON some level, we usually understand we'll be OK.
Do you believe it deep enough that it's not always on your mind?
SS
I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
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I DO know that I'll be OK - no matter what.
This recovery right now is all about me. My half. I am learning, growing, and choosing.
I am learning about what makes me tick, about choosing my actions.
I am leaving the outcome in God's hands. I believe that I will get to a point where I will know that this is either working - or it's not. If it's not, I will move on.
If that happens, how lucky will the next guy be???!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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Very lucky.
Of course, we still hope there won't be a "next guy."
It has long been interesting to me that many people shy away from the things that will make them happy, on the grounds that they don't like it, or don't want to do it.
God never makes mistakes. When he tells us something, it is for our happiness, not to torment us or hurt us. You can be sure that your improvements lead to happiness, and that you are on the right track.
I also believe you will know what to do as you go along. Sure it requires thought, but all worthwhile things require effort on our part.
Of course the effort for some things is easily given - we tend to love what we serve, and serve what we love. A mothers love for her children comes to mind - it's a labor for sure, but many mothers don't notice the work part at all, they just enjoy the result.
I have seen some men bestow more love, care, and time on their car or truck than they do on their wife, and children. It makes one wonder.
It has been said that "we usually get out of life exactly what we want - as shown by how we spend our time."
Seems to be very true.
Once you know what you want, it's a lot easier to get it.
"Happy are those who dream dreams, and are willing to pay the price to make them come true."
Is he willing to pay the price?
Time, and his actions will tell us the truth about that.
SS
I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
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LA,
I've been on a bit of a downward spiral the last couple of weeks or so. I've been following AmI's thread and a lot of what you have written there has helped.
Without going in to too many details, a health issue has come up with H which also affects me. I have felt angry, stated that, and did not react or behave in a manner that I would regret.
YS is also struggling again. I have been having trouble walking the line there as well. H's A tore us apart as a family. His refusal to acknowledge and apologize to the kids just keeps us all seperate. How do we heal as a family? I feel torn all of the time between my role as a mother, my role as a wife, as this new person I am trying to become? I have started to withdraw.
So, 2 weeks ago, after some discussion back and forth about counseling and family issues, I wrote my H this letter:
"Honey, I am choosing to write this to you instead of talking face to face. I am doing that because I am afraid of seeing your reaction because I feel especially sensitive lately. I also think I am better at writng than speaking. I have chosen to continue in this marriage because I believe that we are capable of putting it back together. I believe that we can have a marriage that is great, that is filled with love and joy and trust. I believe that if we work together, we could have that better than it ever ws before. I want to heal from the events of the past year. I believe that you have the power to help me do that. I have done all that I can on my own - I need you for the rest. I want us to work together to build that great marriage. I believe that it would be great to work side by side to attain that - a marriage in which we are both completely happy and fulfilled, built on love and respect and trust. I believe that this moving forward would be a good thing, something that we would both find satisfying and rewarding. You are choosing to believe that things will be okay as long as we are just living here together. You are choosing to believe that I forced you into counseling in September, and that I want to analyze you and judge you. You believe that you can't talk to me about your feelings, that you are incapable. You believe that staying married will protect us from straying even though it didn't before. Those are your beliefs. I respect you enough to not try to refute them or change them, yet I have been trying to do just that and I apologize. Your beliefs and your perceptions are yours, as mine are mine. I respect that and thank you for sharing yours with me. Good stuff to know. We are both full and equal partners in this marriage, both responsible for our actions and choices. I have been struggling lately to stay out of your stuff so strong is my desire to "fix" us. Your half of this marriage is yours, you own it. I know that. You are 50% and I am 50%. I am only responsible for my half and that is what I am going to continue to work on. I would like to make an appointment with Steve Harley so we could ask him what would be involved in moving forward, what it would take to have a great marriage. If that is something you are willing to do, please let me know so I can schedule an appointment. If you have any other ideas, I would welcome those as well. Either way, I will respect your choices. I love you, Lizzie"
I heard nothing back from him until yesterday when he sent me this: "Elizabeth, You wrote this letter after we had been to Dr. C's office. Knowing how furious you were about the situation I found this letter to be a good sign. I wanted to take a few days to digest it and come up with a proper response. You know how I feel about any kind of counselling and so that was something I really needed to think about. I was glad you took to writing instead of talking because I also find that much easier. But I have been frustrated and discouraged about writing to you on the computer because I cannot change my mind about anything I write-you see all with your key logger. Extremely frustrating. Almost immediately after you sent this letter you began closing yourself off to me. You never want to hug or kiss me and it's a struggle for you to tell me you love me. You've accused me many times of cheating on you again, which I have not done. You don't believe me even when I tell you the truth. You've made several references to the fact that you had more money when I wasn't here. And then on Tuesday you took off your rings and have yet to put them back on. To me this all points to you wanting me to leave. I just want to say that except for the past couple of weeks I have enjoyed our time together. It's been nice spending time with you at pool, watching movies, going out to eat, the casino trip, and I enjoyed seeing you smile when I did things like find your ring and fix the kitchen drawers. I know I am the one who f*cked things up for us and now I'm thinking maybe the past few months have been too little too late. Maybe there has been too much damage done and we would never be able to resurrect what once was a good marriage. I am incredibly sorry for that. Losing you would be a very deep emotional wound for me that I am sure would never completely heal. I do love you, no matter how this turns out. I am not saying that I want to leave. I am also not saying that I completely want to stay. I am very much on the fence at this point. If you have a strong opinion one way or the other I would probably not try to sway it. I know that you need to work on your relationship with the boys, especially Logan, and that would probably be easier without me here. Sometimes I think you direct anger toward Logan that is really meant for me. I do not like seeing you unhappy, and I know I am the cause of it. Last night I had a dream that we talked about what the absence of your rings meant. In that dream you said it meant exactly what it symbolized, that the marriage was over. At this point I don't know what to say, and I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm in an enormous whilrwind, getting dizzier by the second. I can't plant my feet, focus on what's ahead of me, or pick a direction and get out of it. I just keep spinning. I know this may be asking a lot but I am hoping you can grab ahold of me and point me in some kind of direction. Please write back. I Love You, H"
So since then I have been trying to respond but I keep getting stuck. I see a lot of fear in there, a lot of places to listen and repeat. What I don't see is a willingness to jump in with his 50% and deal with this. Can you help me?
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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Lizzie!
"Only you can prevent downward spirals..." (picture me in a bear suit with a solemn right paw held upward)
Gee, where ya been? Reading is half of sharing...still self-care...only not posting is like saying self isn't worth sharing. Food for thought. No bash.
Can help you? I can share...you can take all you want to aid yourself.
Only I can't post now...I've got a date with DH.
In the meantime, will you do something for me? Will you change your WH's letter to where it states his truth, instead of telling you The Truth?
I'll start..
"You wrote this letter after we had been to Dr. C's office."
I believe you wrote this letter in reaction to our session at Dr. C's office. I perceive you were furious about the situation and I found this letter to be a good sign to me, that you were not choosing to kill the marriage right then and there, as I believed would happen."
"I wanted to take a few days to digest it and come up with a proper response." (Notice he's self-editing here...he fears his own inability to share his stuff, fears your reactions, believes others do to him...not that he does. He's still in a wayward state of mind...not being wayward, living it.)
"I know you know how I feel about any kind of counselling and so that was something I really needed to think about."
Again, his fear chokes his actions...causes the spinning and the nowhere to stand and be life he has. He sees everyone on the outside as the cause, control and cure of him. Each act you take to help him will be reaffirming that he's incapable...and we all know he isn't. Stop helping.
Keep rewriting from here...
Your choice to withdraw sears his being...annihilates him. Always has. Choosing to stay present...not as an aid or a punishment...to stay present, put on your rings (YOU ARE MARRIED), to know reality is a great choice...only one you can make to live in reality. All other choices aid fantasy...in you and in your marriage.
Man...DH's almost to toe-tapping...I really gotta go...
Thank you, thank you, thank you for coming here and sharing...your posts matter...so does your choice to post.
I'll be back tomorrow.
LA
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Lizzie picking up the ball.....
"I was glad you took to writing instead of talking because I also find that much easier because I fear sharing myself with you, afraid that you will judge me."
"But I have been frustrated and discouraged about writing to you on the computer because I cannot change my mind about anything I write-you see all with your key logger. Extremely frustrating."
I don't know how I would rewrite this. It seems that with the keylogger, H feels like he has to get it "right" the first time. He said that.
"Almost immediately after you sent this letter I believe you began closing yourself off to me. I don't believe that you ever want to hug or kiss me and it's a struggle for you to tell me you love me, because I don't believe that you can love me after what I have done. I feel that you've accused me many times of cheating on you again, which I have not done. I don't think you believe me even when I tell you the truth. I perceive that you have made several references to the fact that you had more money when I wasn't here. And then on Tuesday you took off your rings and have yet to put them back on. To me this all feels like you are rejecting me and points to you wanting me to leave."
"I just want to say that except for the past couple of weeks I have enjoyed our time together. It's been nice spending time with you at pool, watching movies, going out to eat, the casino trip, and I enjoyed seeing you smile when I did things like find your ring and fix the kitchen drawers. I know I am the one who f*cked things up for us and now I'm thinking maybe the past few months have been too little too late. I'm afraid there has been too much damage done (I'm overwhelmed and don't know where or how to start) and we would never be able to resurrect what once was a good marriage. I am incredibly sorry for that. Losing you would be a very deep emotional wound for me that I am sure would never completely heal. I do love you, no matter how this turns out. I am not saying that I want to leave. I am also not saying that I completely want to stay. I am very much on the fence at this point. If you have a strong opinion one way or the other I would probably not try to sway it. I know that you need to work on your relationship with the boys, especially Logan, and that would probably be easier without me here. Sometimes I think you direct anger toward Logan that is really meant for me. I do not like seeing you unhappy, and I believe I am the cause of it because I believe that other people can cause, cure, or control you."
"Last night I had a dream that we talked about what the absence of your rings meant. In that dream you said it meant exactly what it symbolized, that the marriage was over. At this point I don't know what to say, and I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm in an enormous whilrwind, getting dizzier by the second. I can't plant my feet, focus on what's ahead of me, or pick a direction and get out of it. I just keep spinning. I know this may be asking a lot but I am hoping you can grab ahold of me and point me in some kind of direction because I don't believe that it is something I am able to do myself."
Really having trouble with the last 2 paragraphs. The one in which he says he is still sitting on the fence reminded me of letters he wrote to me while he was still carrying on his A. That was a big trigger for me just reading that. I'm not sure what his truth would be in there except that he enjoys spending time with me, enjoys the whole "marriage" experience, but is afraid of committing to working it out, afraid of failing. When we were on our way to that aforementioned doctor appointment he said that he had thought about going out for milk and never coming back. I didn't react, handed his words back to him, but it has stayed with me.
I see all kinds of fear - fear of sharing, fear of being judged and found wanting, fear of failing. He believes he is incapable and has asked me in that letter to be a parent, to tell him what to do, to cure him. He's in the flight part of fight or flight. Amidst all of this, he got the letter from my daughter. He didn't share that with me. She asked me if he got it (he still keeps his PO box), so I said, "H, DD told me she wrote you a letter and asked me if you got it. Did you?" He said that he had gotten it a few days before and wanted to "process" it for a while. I replied by saying that I would have appreciated hearing it from him, something like "Lizzie, I got a letter from DD today. I need time to think about it, but I wanted to let you know that she sent one to me" Was that an expectation? I feel like I get all muddled up with what is open and honest and what is an expectation. Oh wait, light bulb moment while typing - I am committed to being open and hionest with him. He has said that he will be open and honest with me, so I have that as an expectation, and I am disappointed when he doesn't follow through. Where was I going with that? See, that's what I mean. All muddled up.
I had started a response to him. I'll post it after I get your feedback on this.
By the way, I didn't REALLY take off my rings. My wedding set is yellow gold. I have been wearing a lot of white gold lately, so I ordered a cheap fake set off of QVC to wear once in a while and switched to those when they came in last week. I didn't even think about what that might look like or feel like to him.
Hope your date was great!
Thanks for always being here.
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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LA? Any more feedback on the letter?
Another incident from last week. I was on my way home from work after a 12-hour shift. Had hoped to find someone to relieve me because I was feeling really sick, but no luck. Had spoken with H during the course of the day and told him that I was stuck there.
On my way home, H calls to say that my 18 year old had left a message on the answering machine (H won't answer the phone if it is one of the kids). Told me to call my son because it sounded like he might have car trouble.
I called my son - he was stuck about 15 miles from home with a flat - didn't know what to do. Asked for my help and wanted to know if I could bring a jack and a spare. I told him I would be there as soon as I could.
Called H and let him know of the situation.
H "Doesn't he have a jack and a spare in his car?"
Me: "I don't know. I would guess not since he's asking me to bring them."
H: "But you've worked all day and you're sick - doesn't he have a friend he can call?"
Me: "He called me for help. Are you saying I should ask him to call one of his friends?"
H: "Well, why don't you just bring the stuff to him and then come home. He should know how to change a tire for Christ's sake, he's 18."
Me: "Because he's 18 and a boy, you believe he should know how to change a tire? I'm at the driveway now. I'll be right up."
At this point, I am angry. The thought runs through my mind that before the A - H would have picked up the phone, called me and said, "J has a flat tire. I'm going to help him change it and then I'll be right home."
I get to the garage. H is already there pulling a tire out and says "J should have a jack in his car. Hasn't he read his owner's manual? I can't believe he's 18 and doesn't know how to change a tire.". I say "You know, all of my life I have raised my children as a single parent. The older 2 boys managed alright with this kind of stuff because their father taught them this stuff. J has never been shown how to change a tire. He just started driving a few months ago, just got this car, and obviously has not read his owner's manual. I've never read mine. I'm 46 and I don't know how to change a tire. It's not anything I've ever thought about or been faced with. After tonight, I'm sure that both Josh and I will know how to change a tire."
And I left.
J and I struggled through the owner's manual, figured things out, found the jack, found the spare, but couldn't manage to undo the lug nuts. Luckily, a trooper happened along and helped us out.
This after the whole past 2 weeks with the other stuff going on.
I never said anything to H about how angry I was about this. It was like being married to my ex - there were MY kids and OUR kids, never a sense of family and most of the time, I was left to deal with everything on my own. Besides being angry, I felt unloved, disrespected, and even abandoned.
As I was sitting there in the cold with J, trying to figure things out, H called and said "If you want, I'll come up and you come home." I told him to forget it - too little too late, but I didn't say that. I said "Thanks for the offer, but I'm already here now."
Another example of how everyone in this house is seperate. Where does the family heal? When? How - when he just avoids everything?
Also, YS came home yesterday and said that (F)OW is moving to South Carolina. He knows that because he and her daughter are in the same class and there is a going away party on Friday for her. Also (F)OW works as a lunch lady at his school. So, in the back of my mind, I wonder if H knows this and that is the reason he feels like he said in his letter "an enormous whilrwind, getting dizzier by the second. I can't plant my feet, focus on what's ahead of me, or pick a direction and get out of it. I just keep spinning". I wonder if there has been contact.
Man, I'm a basket case today.
Well, maybe only half a basket case. I'm probably not as bad as I sound <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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I'm here, Lizzie...and I'm beginning with your previous post...
Good job on the edit for truth...here's the ones I tweaked more...
"But I have been frustrated and discouraged about writing to you on the computer because I believe I cannot change my mind about anything I write to you because you can choose to see all with our. I feel extremely frustrated with my choice."
When I asked you to rewrite, I wanted to show you your power in taking the sting out and slowing down your reactivity by setting it in his truth, not the truth, as he oftens does...
How did you feel when you read your rewrite?
What I just rewrote again is important...It isn't extremely frustrated...he is...see that...and see that he's stepping over your choice to look or not...like if he said...I'm writing you a letter today and would like you to consider not looking at the keylogger history for today. And then there's this...will you accept the letter I send or hand you as my real truth and not assume anything I typed and erased was?
Get to the meat of the issues so you aren't caught up in the fragments...we can be distracted by incidents...and wear ourselves down chasing incidents and situations...rather than principles.
"I don't know how I would rewrite this. It seems that with the keylogger, H feels like he has to get it "right" the first time. He said that." Well, there's my additional rewrite...lemme what your feelings are when you read it, 'k?
"Almost immediately after you sent this letter I believe you began closing yourself off to me. I don't believe that you ever want to hug or kiss me and it's a struggle for you to tell me you love me, because I don't believe that you can love me after what I have done. I feel that you've accused me many times of cheating on you again, which I have not done. I don't think you believe me even when I tell you the truth. I perceive that you have made several references to the fact that you had more money when I wasn't here. And then on Tuesday you took off your rings and have yet to put them back on. To me this all feels like you are rejecting me and points to you wanting me to leave."
Now this was the OUCH paragraph for ME...and I wanted you to see his ownership and it's hard to reach...still here. One thing...he hurts, feels rejection and verification when you withdraw...feels punished, earns punishment and punishes back...because what he says here "because I don't believe that you can love me after what I have done" could be him addressing himself...and I want you to see this through your eyes, in your self...when I withdraw, what does that say to self? That self is weak? Being attacked? Is defenseless when present?
Did you get closer to staying present and NOT hurting because you weren't reactive...or did you MAKE yourself stay present, which started that resentment, that internal resistance which wears you down, down and downer...through your own choice?
"I just want to say that except for the past couple of weeks I have enjoyed our time together. It's been nice spending time with you at pool, watching movies, going out to eat, the casino trip, and I enjoyed seeing you smile when I did things like find your ring and fix the kitchen drawers. I know I am the one who f*cked things up for us and now I'm thinking maybe the past few months have been too little too late."
This is wayward speak...this is part of what he does to himself (negative self-talk) and you do, too...or did. The whole idea of too little too late, like it's weather and not choices...and your choice to determine, not HIS...please know he's done this all his life, in his mind...believes feelings, things, events--happen. He isn't owning his part...he's a great observer and a lousy participant. We are all participants...we cannot stop being a participant in life...our choices are inherent...
I'm saying this for your clarity so you don't buy into fantasy and choose to react.
"I'm afraid there has been too much damage done (I'm overwhelmed and don't know where or how to start) and we would never be able to resurrect what once was a good marriage."
More of the same...and another way we try to get others, whom we live through, to fix stuff...here, convince me otherwise...rather than them choosing their thoughts and beliefs. He plainly stated...his fear makes him choose to believe in fantasy. Not reality.
Reality is...(this is to remind YOU)...all any human being on the planet is one heartbeat of time...right now...and it's unstoppably true. Which means we are literally, often physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually new...each moment...every choice is the first choice...of the moment...past and futures are subjective...done and not come...we are new, fresher than produce...so anything can happen, not bad or good...we can seriously do anything...because we all have this right now existence.
"I am incredibly sorry for that."
He's sorry for his fantasy, his belief...don't buy into this...listen and repeat really helps you to rephrase to set the truth and his truth plainly.
"Losing you would be a very deep emotional wound for me that I am sure would never completely heal."
Again...all this comes from the four-year-old within us...not from our adult perspectives. His fear throws him into his inner child and he wrote from there...know this...hand it back...you don't know his adult perspective. Good to know what you don't know, 'k?
And how are you doing with this...can you recognize when you to your inner child? What your triggers are? How you can stay aware of it?
"I do love you, no matter how this turns out. I am not saying that I want to leave. I am also not saying that I completely want to stay. I am very much on the fence at this point."
His only power is in his presence, in his child mindset...don't go there. I hear him struggling desperately to state his truth "I hurt, feel rejected, a constant failure within myself and for everyone else...I believe I'm a condemned man from the inside...my Judge is fierce and unrelenting and I mix him up with you, my partner...because the Judge came from my FOO, and you are closer to me, more apart of me, than even they were. I looked to you, Lizzie, to fix me because they broke me. And you bought into that...complied. Now you're not."
"If you have a strong opinion one way or the other I would probably not try to sway it. I know that you need to work on your relationship with the boys, especially Logan, and that would probably be easier without me here."
Notice this fantasy extended to more than you, marriage, children...it's how he removes himself from acknowledging he's a constant participant in life...rejection = removal.
Where have I heard that before...hmmmm...Oh, Lizzie!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
"Sometimes I think you direct anger toward Logan that is really meant for me."
Projection...he does this to everyone else, so it's what he perceives...whether you really do or not, notice projection.
"I do not like seeing you unhappy, and I believe I am the cause of it because I believe that other people can cause, cure, or control you." Wow...a victim's life...stuck to observer...and forever the bad one, the screw up...the one who will fail...that's one painful, crazy way to live...I remember it well.
I'm not sure what his truth would be in there except that he enjoys spending time with me, enjoys the whole "marriage" experience, but is afraid of committing to working it out, afraid of failing." "
I didn't see that...I saw he refuses to see his choice in anything. That's not about you...
Your DJ is your choice to believe he's afraid of committing to working it out--when in essence, he doesn't know he has that power...refuses to choose that belief. OTHERS cause, cure and control. Ask him if that means that he believe HE is the cause, control and cure, too?
"When we were on our way to that aforementioned doctor appointment he said that he had thought about going out for milk and never coming back. I didn't react, handed his words back to him, but it has stayed with me."
Did you listen and repeat with filter? You may be up to that..."Are you saying you feel so embarrassed, such a screw up right now, that you want more than anything to erase reality?"
How do YOU feel about that particular reality, Liz?
"I see all kinds of fear - fear of sharing, fear of being judged and found wanting, fear of failing."
When you see others' fear...do you feel responsible for it? Helpless to change it but want to? Or do you get the solace that everyone fears...everyone...so what you're really identifying is not that he fears...that he chooses to not act, anyway.
"He believes he is incapable and has asked me in that letter to be a parent, to tell him what to do, to cure him."
He stated his desire, his wishfulness...didn't tell you to do that...and yes, you know he believes others cure him...of what they caused. I know you will choose not to parent, only to partner, through respect.
I believe in you, Lizzie.
"He's in the flight part of fight or flight."
I disagree...his normal choice is fantasy, which is mental flight...here he IS sharing this thought processes...his feelings and beliefs...and internal fight...and he's not gone...
"Amidst all of this, he got the letter from my daughter. He didn't share that with me."
Rephrase...he chose to not be honest with you through sharing.
Seriously important, Lizzie...you can wear out yourself and think it's him doing it to you, because of your own self-talk, your choice of perception and perspective and doing the same sneaky stuff inside you that you see him doing.
"She asked me if he got it (he still keeps his PO box), so I said, "H, DD told me she wrote you a letter and asked me if you got it. Did you?"
Why? Why not state the truth..."DD said she sent you a letter. I'm glad she shared that with me." That's the truth. You are parenting here...asking if he got it...be okay with not knowing if he did or didn't...your part is to state your stuff, call out the truth...
"He said that he had gotten it a few days before and wanted to "process" it for a while. I replied by saying that I would have appreciated hearing it from him,"
More mothering...you not only tell him here what he already knows (he knows you like to be included, shared with...connected--remember, your WH can act from his inner child, doesn't mean you react as a mother--you give him the exact words you want...which says "You are innocent and ignorant, WH...here's the script...follow it." Free yourself, Lizzie.
And then you get it...and I knew that (during my first read) and forgot...you really get it--
"Oh wait, light bulb moment while typing - I am committed to being open and hionest with him. He has said that he will be open and honest with me, so I have that as an expectation, and I am disappointed when he doesn't follow through. Where was I going with that? See, that's what I mean. All muddled up."
You were going...you expect YOURSELF to be O&H...not mothering; sharing from your intent to connect and respect. You...not him. You're minding his stuff, Lizzie...it will muddle you up, blank your mind...the light bulbs will burst as long as you choose to put your focus where you have no control...all over him.
Free yourself again, Lizzie.
"I had started a response to him. I'll post it after I get your feedback on this." Take your time. Reactivity is what it sounds like you most do not want...process it...so you can understand his desire to process, as well.
"By the way, I didn't REALLY take off my rings. My wedding set is yellow gold. I have been wearing a lot of white gold lately, so I ordered a cheap fake set off of QVC to wear once in a while and switched to those when they came in last week. I didn't even think about what that might look like or feel like to him."
This was IB and an LB...you didn't state what you were doing...didn't consider him at all...no POJA for this MARITAL symbol...no O&H. Now you know...what's your new choice?
"Hope your date was great!" I loved it...dating my DH is marvelous for me...I consider it self-care.
"Thanks for always being here." Until I wasn't...got behind...distracted...didn't say a thing about you...said only I wasn't here.
I appreciate you continuing to share...thank you for having me on your thread...being on others (you ripple around the world)...and ask Magjul to keep at this, too...where you both practice honestly sharing yourselves through posting because you are both worthy of highest honesty, significant, whole and complete...as you really are.
Your next post had that old DJ-to-resentment machine chugging along like the old days...when your present moment...was TERRIFIC...had your WH gone out like his old days, you wouldn't have gotten to be present, learning side by side, with your son...which to me, is priceless...someone else did, taught, took care of...this important, nearly a right of passage...thing...and you were there...by choice...what's to resent? Why do you desire to be robbed of what is most important in your life? Your family? And why would you ask one member to rob you of another?
Look at your priorities, your own symbols (since you overlooked some)...your power, your presence, your choices...because that's what getting to you about him...use the signal...not to bash...to know...to learn...to grow...even when you're sick, tired, wishfully wanting flight...and you chose to stay present...work through frustration and work together...because your son called YOU and you made the choice...had the experience...and WH really had nothing to do with it...you had a lot of automatic stuff...how'd that benefit your marriage?
When your focus remains on lack...you cannot experience abundance. I believe you had an abundant time with your son...there were amends, redemption and important connection in a new way...burgeoning adult to adult.
What do you think of the perspective you chose for that day?
LA
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LA,
Thanks so much for the reply. I have so much to write back but it will have to wait. I am swamped with homework today. I am working nights tonight so I should be able to post then.
Just wanted you to know that I read your post and found it immensly helpful!!
Thanks.
Lizzie
BS - 48 (me) FWH - 40 DD 12-28-05. After Plan A, Plan B, and a false recovery, H moved home 9-29-06. Phone contact continued until 8-07. Real recovery started after that. 2 boys (mine) - ages 20 and 14 - still at home
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Hi, Lizzie.
I've been reading your thread but have NO clue what to say. We seem to be in such similar places.
Would your H's medical condition have anything to do with him not helping your son with his tire?
I liked the letters -- even your H's. I was really frustrated and wanted to shake him at first when I read it, but .... then realized it was probably similar to something I would have sent before I ever had LA and MB. And, it seemed kind of like an honesty and openness that hadn't been happening before. Even though the wording and the context and the tone weren't great, at least he's finally saying things that he wouldn't before (like about the wedding ring).
Maybe this is a door .... like you could thank him for sharing, agree with how hard it is, and how the writing seemed to help, and that an MC could probably help you both get these kinds of things on the table and resolved a little more efficiently than letters.... ??
I don't know .... I'm kind of just throwing thoughts out there 'cuz I've been thinking about you and have no idea how I'd respond in your sitch and LA is much better at that part anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
-AmI.
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Lizzie...
Here I am, saying "balance"...focus back on you...or something in that direction...and I don't see where I did to your letter what I did to your H's...so, here's some more...unasked...for my own balance.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
"YS is also struggling again. I have been having trouble walking the line there as well. H's A tore us apart as a family."
Okay...let's get to truth here...A's attack marriages...they have consequences in our families...and recovery doesn't tear families apart. So...YS has a personal issue with stepdad...got that...please consider the overlap possible (inside him) with fathers...with bio-one...this H turning into WH...and trying to come back again. His relationship with WH is separate from yours...between him and WH. You parent a child together...the relationships remain separate...yours and his and vice versa...the united front goes to limits, family participation, requirements....the functionality stuff...and the "you did so I hate you (or love you) stuff" is the individual relationships.
This stuff I didn't know when raising my kids. Now I know...and it works great...when my DH talks to the boys...shares himself...makes an outing with them...it's them and him...and mine with me...and all together. Each of our sons bear a ton of resentment for him...and for me...and they wrestle it...now talk about it...work through it and own it...incrementally, with setbacks and leaps forward...and we respect they can do it. 17 and older, though...not 12...respecting these are relationships THEY maintain for their lives...not as wives and mothers to MAKE them have one...we mind our own...listen and respect...don't dwell where we have no power...we get out of their way...and that leaves the real responsibility on their shoulders, each of them...where it already was, all along.
Women healing boys' hurts...doesn't that ring something inside you...with the possibility that maybe this is where the stunting comes in? Man to man...and mother to son...separate stuff...you teach him boundaries around you...your standards...do your part in your half of your mother-son relationship...and don't step into the others...acknowledge and validate son's stuff...do not fix, smooth, cure...oh, you know. I know you know, Lizzie.
And when you want so desperately for FWH to repair damage with YS...remember, you want him to do the same for you, your marriage...and healing is mutual...like a grieving process...not a smoothing one.
"His refusal to acknowledge and apologize to the kids just keeps us all seperate."
Your family gives huge power to FWH...forcing it down his throat...and it isn't real. He's only half of any relationship he has with anyone on this planet...he cannot keep you all separate. I think I made that point above. For you, know this choice of perspective...how damaging it is to you, FWH and your sons...find out why you chose it and where the false payoff is in believing this.
"How do we heal as a family? I feel torn all of the time between my role as a mother, my role as a wife, as this new person I am trying to become?"
Roles versus self...you are you...you choose to act as a mother and a wife...not three people...all of you...even without children, we are mothers to ourselves (when we really learn about our inner children), we parent inside and outside...we are wives, which is partnering, with our selves in dismantling our self-image and building a truthful relationship with our authentic selves...whether we are married or not. Owning all of your villagers, getting to know all of your parts, disowned or lost...and welcoming them home is just verifies wholeness...and you already are.
Draw your lines clearly, Lizzie. This isn't about roles...it's about priorities...who comes first and who doesn't...and I believe, given your marital history, the hardest thing for you to do is to put your marriage first, above your children...how close am I? So this is the struggle, not in roles, but in choices.
"I have started to withdraw."
I'm calling you out on that one, Lizzie..."I have chosen to withdraw."
I believe in your honesty, Lizzie. I've seen how straight you can be with yourself.
How about using this to get to why you choose to withdraw, what's the payoff for you and is it a real one?
"I am choosing to write this to you instead of talking face to face. I am doing that because I am afraid of seeing your reaction because I feel especially sensitive lately. I also think I am better at writng than speaking."
Can you see when you state your fear without saying where it comes from, it puts it onto him, like his reaction makes you not speak directly to him? Would you consider the more you learn about boundary enforcements, practice them, that your fear will lessen in the face of anyone's reaction? Looking for your half...not blaming at all.
"I want to heal from the events of the past year. I believe that you have the power to help me do that. I have done all that I can on my own - I need you for the rest."
Do you really believe this? All that you can on your own? Nothing left to work on?
(The parts I'm leaving out are owned and honest...commendable and very well communicated, IMO...not leaving them out to discount them, 'k?)
"You are choosing to believe that things will be okay as long as we are just living here together. You are choosing to believe that I forced you into counseling in September, and that I want to analyze you and judge you. You believe that you can't talk to me about your feelings, that you are incapable. You believe that staying married will protect us from straying even though it didn't before. Those are your beliefs. I respect you enough to not try to refute them or change them, yet I have been trying to do just that and I apologize. Your beliefs and your perceptions are yours, as mine are mine. I respect that and thank you for sharing yours with me. Good stuff to know."
I like listing what he's said...and I'm running into this with a poster on another board...the belief that some people make choices and others don't...varies on personality or background...that some are incapable. Stuns me, really...because they are choosing even that belief, aren't they? So...have you communicated your belief that all humans are designed this way, that they choose...they can't be made, caused or cured? I'm wondering if your FWH triggers to any "You" statements made at all?
Now, I got my balance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thank you for being here, for working on your stuff and staying open to what others share...I'm talking about me. To heck with others.
Heehee.
Not really.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Btw, have you been highlighting his choices through gratitude (when he chooses to do even tiny things...from opening doors to kissing goodnight...highlighting acts of love...sharing your appreciation, acknowledging)?
See, I believe he takes the credit and avoids the blame...which creates a lot of internal and external conflict...because it's like saying, "I can and I can't" and self just shudders at that...when it's the same principle.
And it is...
Same for you when you feel yourself withdrawing...not choosing...with that awareness...
Getting this balance inwardly is another step in healing, also. Awareness, not judgment. Do you still self-bash? Have you tuned in well to your negative self-talk? Anything FWH said in his letter back to you, like the fence sitting, which may have triggered more than A memories? I ask because these signals are for a reason...to get your attention...about you...and we can be distracted by only seeing them coming at us, being attacked or thrust into memory...and miss our part of the signal...which mirrors exactly what we're doing to us, on the inside.
((((Lizzie)))))
LA
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Children
by BrainHurts - 10/19/24 04:02 PM
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