LG... you're story about birthing classes 14 years ago... I can relate.

2 good ones...

1st... our honeymoon. Set to go to Florida 2 days after wedding. She's never been there. I decided that we did not receive as much presentation money at the wedding as we expected, coupled with our transmission going in our car the week before the wedding... I was afraid to enter our life together in big debt. Yeah, not great planning, but I figured I was being responsible... so we talked, she cried, and I convinced... definitely not a POJA ending... but we cancelled the honeymoon the day before our trip. We did end up driving to Minneapolis and had a good time...but not the fairy tale we were both looking forward to.

She brings this up now as a sign that we should not have married.

Number 2. I was wanting to wait about 5 years before kids. At the 2.5 yr. mark, she is upset and really wanting a family. I relented because it meant so much to her... and I wanted kids as well... just not yet. After trying for a while, she did become pregnant.

One Saturday morning, I went to my brother's to help him move. I was late getting home to quickly run to our adult softball game... I was the player/coach and pitcher. At the time, it was extremely important to me, and the team was counting on me. I ran in the house to grab my stuff and hurry to the game, I was barely going to make it in time. My W chose this moment to tell me she was pregnant. I was happy, congratulated her, etc... and then ran out to the game. It had not really hit me yet... needless to say it was one of the worst softball games I ever played.

She has not forgiven me for my reaction. I have apologized many times and told her how I could understand how she would have felt by my reaction... and I've tried to explain what I was thinking at the time. She still uses it in her thinking against me.

I realize these are both just misunderstandings or dealing with real life... but her images of her fairy tale marriage kept getting dashed to pieces... instead of realizing this was life and that we both had to work at the marriage and communication... she just thought that our marriage was wrong.

Shaden

LG said...



This is one area that I know I have not failed in. I have given so many foot rubs, back rubs, temple massages, finger massages... you name it. Practically every day. And most often it does not lead to SF and most often I do not expect it to lead to SF. 2 nights ago, we were watching tv with the family... she had a hard day at work. I ran and got a basin of soap and water and cream... washed her feet well, dried them off and put cream on them with a massage.

She often pushes me away or refuses the massages. I don't just give them for a reaction... I truly enjoy giving them.

But I also enjoy receiving. I have asked many many times. Earlier in our marriage I made it very clear how much I enjoyed them... even went so far to say that I could be just as happy with a massage as with SF. I must have been a little crazy at the time.

It is very rare that I recieve. I don't know why and when I've asked, she doesn't have an answer.

This is one of the reasons now (along with SF being rare) that I am feeling frustrated. I have let her know how this is an EN of mine... the touching and time together, even without SF... but she is unwilling to try to meet my need.

When I ask what her needs are, she will not discuss them with me. I must be asking the wrong way. She has said several times that she knows I am giving to her far more than what she is giving me. She has said that this is the best she can do right now. She cannot answer why she cannot do more. She pushes me away because she feels guilty, maybe, that I am doing more than her???

I don't get it. Unless there is some emotional scarring from her past.

Shaden

MarriedForever... glad you stopped by.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to read the links you sent after I catch up with my responses here. Maybe I'll drop you an email afterwards.

Like you, I am starting to get tired of the plan A'ing of my W. I am not tired of the bettering myself part of plan A... but trying to figure out if I am better with or without my W. You said and others have told me I will be ok either way. I do believe this... but I also need to take into account which way is better for my kids. If things don't get better is a broken house better, or a father living in resentment in the house.

Our boys do not feel the affects of this very much... we are very good at keeping most of it from them... I guess one bonus of us both being conflict avoiders... but I also want my kids to learn how to deal with conflict.

Shaden

Marsh, I am trying to figure this one out. I don't think we are moving forward, but my W thinks we are.

Maybe the IC will help me... next session is Friday morning.

thanks for your support and sticking around here.

Shaden

Sorry, JKG... I gave the credit for this awesome exercise idea to LG before... I edited it on the other post.

I am still eager to try this one... hopefully before the weekend.

Shaden

Hey Shaden,

My DH canceled our Honeymoon plans too, and for the same reason you did.

And he has never given me a foot or back rub either. What's up w/ that?

I would LOVE a back rub...ask him...beg him...nothing.

I don't get it. I'd do anything he'd ask me to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

Thanks, Pep... this is awesome. I will probably have to re-word it a little as it definately does not sound like me talking. But the gist of it works just fine.

Thanks for dropping by here... it must have been the name change that got your attention, right?

Shaden

Marsh,

Our MC explained that I was being too nice to her... the balance in our marriage was off.

I was doing everything and she felt like a helpless child because of it... I certainly don't think I belittled her or treated her like a child... I just didn't demand enough responsibility and balance from her.

The MC explained that she wanted a new thrill... the bad boy in her life. I was too nice... too boring. Being passionate with me was like being with her parent or child or brother... anything but a lover.

I need to stand up for my needs and earn respect from her.

But I do enjoy "giving' to her as well.. it is not just a manipulation to get from her. I really do want to do things that make her happy.

Prior to her EA 6 years ago, she said I was not in her life enough... too busy with work, sports, etc. I did a complete turnaround, and then I was smothering... giving too much. What will the next excuse be???

Shaden

Maybe it will be that I am not in her life at all.

Shaden

What is the difference between an Oboe and a Bassoon??? I couldn't tell ya... I already burned them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ouch!

I can see why you're troubled.

How old are your kids?

Why do you think you swing back and forth between such extreme emotions for your wife?

~ Marsh

Ouch squared!


~ Marsh

Ya know Shaden - I am horrified by what I am reading here.

care to explain???

Marsh... my kids are 10 and 11...both boys. That is one thing we have done right together... they are fantastic. I know, every parent thinks the same, but they are doing really well.

I am not sure about my extreme swings... that is one of the reasons for me to go to IC.

Partly, my history has been fence-sitting. I have had the ability/curse to always look at every situation from every angle and in the view of the other person. This hurts me in making decisions.

I will see something or feel something and think one way... and then I will try and see it from my W's perspective or something that I read on here which differs and I see it in a different way.

I try patience and I think that is what is required one moment and the next I think I am enabling and doing the wrong thing.

This issue has not been a huge problem throughout my life for me, but it seems to have gotten worse now. I can't trust my instincts or feelings. I am having trouble figuring out what I want, what is right, and what I should do... it keeps changing on me.

When I first went to MC shortly after DDay... I answered my MC to why I wanted to stay... "because I couldn't imagine life without my W... I couldn't imagine finding someone else, etc".

I do not feel this way anymore.. atleast not nearly as strongly. But I still look at her and feel strong emotions of "love". But when I am away from her and I think about what she is not doing in our marriage, then the anger and doubt comes. I am thinking that I am caught in an addiction myself. It sounds extreme right now because of the frame of mind I've been in the last few days. It has not been like this all of the time.

If I finally decided the right thing to do was to separate, I believe I could do it... but I continue to sway back and forth over what the right thing is.

My W isn't completely ungiving. For example, she is free with hugs and some affection and regular, daily conversation is comfortable. But my expectations are for much more. I also sway back and forth over whether I am expecting too much too soon, or that I should be expecting more and to not do so will jeopardize our recovery.

Shaden

One thing to remember... what I am writing here is snapshots of what is going on... it is not the full picture and is prejudiced by my current feelings.

When I read over what I wrote, I thought a lot of it sounded pretty pathetic... that I am being completely walked over.

This is not the case in all things and my examples are extremes... but yes, I can see that this is a major problem.

But it still does not give me an answer. Going to IC, learning how to communicate, being stronger, and being patient... in other words changing myself.

or saying enough is enough and leaving... taking control of my life and forcing her to change if she wants to be with me.

which side of the fence do I jump to? I keep going back to door number 1, mostly because that can more easily be changed if it is the wrong answer. Door # 2 is more permanent if I'm wrong.

What's the saying... "sh** or get off the pot".

But there is a lot at stake here... including my sons.

Shaden

Hi Shaden!

I just found this post that Bob Pure made on another thread...

Sounds like what you're going through is pretty normal.




I have seen my own recovery, and that of many other BS follow predictable steps. The steps or stages may be similar but the timelines are very different. Also, once the full set has been run through, stages can be selected in seemigly random fashion.


[color:"blue"] 1.- Devastation. [/color]
Fear, shock, confusion, existential pain. Loss of hopes, dreams and every assumption about God and man.
D-day and just afterwards. Don't want to go there again, ever.

[color:"blue"]2.- Appeasement. [/color]
OK, I've been dealt a [email]cr@p[/email] hand, but if she will at least stay home SOME of mt life support systems may at least function a bit.

[color:"blue"]3.- Indignation.[/color]
F'k that ! I'm stronger now and i WILL NOT suck up any more pain than I have to. Still scared, but not settling for crumbs.
This is where MB gets SERIOUSLY assimilated and applied. Turns hatred on OM as being to blame for affair.

[color:"blue"]4.- Gratitude.[/color]
The affair is ended, WW sends NC letter, exposure scares OM into darkness. THANK YOU GOD ! LA LA LA LA LA ! Still suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

[color:"blue"]5.-"Advising others how to be wonderfully recovered like I am" [/color]

We have like SF 3 times a day, and a restored marriage is a decent possibility again and I am so PATHETICALLY grateful to not be in the deepest [email]cr@p[/email] imaginable I am hyper-happy. Yessiree, no recovery problems for me !This is it for ever and it only took us x months ! Secretly suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

[color:"blue"]6.-"Ah, theres an elephant in the sitting room" [/color]

So day to day life has been OK for a while now. SF, even maybe some ILYs. Kids are happy. Life is ACTUALLY not happier than for years but it is so much better than during the dark times of the affair and withdrawal that it seems that way. But you start to notice the 'elephant' in the sitting room : the enormous baggage of the affair that the BS has been previously too 'fight or flight' or psychotically happy to address. Suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

[color:"blue"]7.- "I am angry and I don't need you so whY am I here ?" [/color]

BS has operated in a loveless and hurt world for so long is now amost completely self sufficient. Is no longer even slightly desperate.Instead resentment builds . Does not NEED FWW as whole life support mechnanism has HAD to regrow without her while she betrayed and sulked over the months. Feels indignation at both the insult of the affair AND the insult of FWW not contributing HARD to recovery. Feels like an ATM machine and bodyguard and hugely taken for granted. KNOWS FWS still loves OM.

[color:"blue"]8. - What about MY needs ? [/color]

BS has developed a sense of self worth independent of what others think. Has had to. Thinks he deserves MUCH more affection, admiration respect, gratitude. " I didn't put this amount of effort in just to be nagged at all the time, and never be praised. I deserve MORE than that!." The kids happiness at a stable family quells thoughts of rebellion. realises OM was just an amoral scumbag who made the most of an opportunity FWW offered him, 100% of the blame for the A is FWW. This hits hard.Resentment now as big as a labrador on the BS lap whle driving.

[color:"blue"] 9. - Resignation [/color]

The kids are happy, I am not unhappy, FWW is happy, this is just my lot in life. Better get on with it. Denialof resentment.

[color:"blue"]10.- make or break drive to get a M the BS deserves. [/color]

An effort from BS to challenge the peaceful but unsatisfying status quo in an attempt to get BS needs met.


Resentment is a theme in a lot of this, mate.

Recognise what you feel as valid, and as normal for a recovering BS and it will lose its ability to hurt you as much.

Marsh:

Excellent Post! That b0b Pure guy has it all doesn't he?

Shaden:

Buddy, you get the chance to start responding to my random thoughts and I am running away for vacation next week.

Marsh would kill to get the back, foot and neck rubs that you provide to your seemingly ungrateful wife. (not really ungrateful, I know, but...)

Strange world isn't it.

Our breakthough on Dday came when I was rubbing my wifes feet. Tears can certianly make the lotion more slippery.

And your story about the honeymoon? Being practical never wins over love. Minneapolis? Eeek!

But you need to ask her to explain why she doesn't feel married because she went to Minneappolis (sp?) instead of Disney World. You need to call that out and address it like I did the childbirth classes.

any mention of pianis and I'm there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hey Shaden, Marsh, Bob...everyone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just have to second this motion that this post by Bob is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY right on...almost to the point of laughter.

At the beginning of this whole mess, I just could NOT understand that I might ever get to a place where I wanted to say F*** you to my H, or my marriage. No, that adrenaline was pumping so hard, and the threat of losing him or my marriage to the slimiest person on earth was just too big and there was NO WAY. Couldn't even understand any mention of BSs eventually getting to the place. I thought they must be crazy, or maybe they never loved their FWS that much in the first place.

Well, man was I wrong....cuz I'm there. Thankfully, my H has finally "come around" and is helping me to work through it, but...if not? Oh man, we'd be in trouble. I think it was BigK who said to me "You can see now how the BS is the most danger to recovery at this point, right?". Yep, I sure can.

Oh, and right on to Bob about all of these things jumping around, and happening in random fashion. Yup. Totally.

Also, I like his thought that recognizing that this is normal will help it to not hurt you as bad. I'm gonna try that one, I think.

Thanks for the help, guys!! And Shaden...you're not alone, my friend. There are plenty of us out here in the same place.

Actually, just knowing that others are going through this, have GONE through it and made it through, is incredibly helpful and healing as well....for me, anyways. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

~MF