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Alp,
As a BS, IMHO the place you're trying to get to is indifference, not necessarily acceptance or forgiveness. Acceptance implies, to me, that what the OP did was OK. Forgiveness, like everyone is saying, is for the repentant and God, who's grace I pray for daily.

Like BigKahuna, I have no forgiveness towards the cancerous mole that was the OM but I work to move him away from my daily consciousness and hope, some day, that I won't care whether he's alive or dead, sick or well, happy or sad, ect. Since I don't ever want any interaction, it doesn't matter whether he receives my forgiveness (won't care anyway).

If you can move towards indifference, then it will stop eating at you. When you forgive, accept or don't care a whiff about the OP, then you've moved to ridding your spirit of these negative emotions. Very hard to do but where you want to be.

V/r,
No way


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FWW 41
M 18 yrs
FWW in LTA, Dday Jan 2005
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Interesting thread - a topic that I think every BS has to deal with, Christian or not.

I'm still trying to work out my position, from a Biblical perspective. The point I've been at for the last several months is that my forgiving my wife is not dependent upon her repentance or remorse - but the future of our marriage is.

In other words, I can forgive the wrong done to me regardless of whether MP asks me for it. However, a lack of repentance or remorse could very well sink our marriage, simply because I, as a simple human, need that from my wife to have any level of comfort that she will actively work to avoid this situation in the future.

That's just me. Perhaps, as others have said, what I'm really saying is that my ability to accept the situation is not dependent on my wife's attitude. Indeed, I've reached a relatively solid level of peace regarding the A (it helps that the A is over and we are working on recovery).

If you look at it from the perspective of God, then I think FH and others are right - we can't forgive without repentance. But we can certainly let go of the anger and bitterness from the wound. And sometimes, unfortunately, that's the best we can hope for from a situation like this.

I hope you and your daughters find peace, and that your daughters can someday repair their relationship with their dad (assuming that he's willing to repair it). He may just wake up someday and find that his daughters will have nothing to do with him, no matter what he does or says. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Formerly known as brokenbird

BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05

Second separation. Working on me.

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
John 15:7 (NIV)
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This quote makes me very sad...

"I tried to save the M using the MB plan, but I failed."

You did not fail your ExWH failed, this was not your fault that the MB principles did not work. It breaks my heart that you think that, please don't. You sound like a great caring person who tried to save your marriage even after your ExWH betrayed you. That says many good things about you alone and I know there must be many more.

Shawn

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Very well said, Shawn. {{alphin}}


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healingbird:

Quote
In other words, I can forgive the wrong done to me regardless of whether MP asks me for it. However, a lack of repentance or remorse could very well sink our marriage, simply because I, as a simple human, need that from my wife to have any level of comfort that she will actively work to avoid this situation in the future.

The lack of remorse or repentance indicates that one hasn't taken responsibility for one's actions. In the case of infidelity, which is so obviously wrong, someone who isn't sorry for their actions seems much more likely to repeat the same offense.

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Alph, I'm not a Christian either. Regardless of the question of religious practice, this is a difficult subject because that word "forgive" doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

I think I understand what you're thinking about.

For me, I don't want to care about what my ex did. I don't want the ability to make myself angry any time I want, just by thinking back on the things I experienced. I don't want to care whether those people stay together or not. I don't want my happiness to have anything to do with whether or not they succeed.

Waiting for a perpetrator to be sorry before you can let go of the injuries they inflicted on you is not a good idea. It makes you dependent on them. You do not want those people to have any say over whether or not you're happy again.

If I were you, I'd take that off the table. It might happen, but you ought to try and get yourself to a place where if it does, that's just gravy.

So you take the need to hear "I'm so sorry I hurt you and I'll regret it for the rest of my life" off the table. What are you left with?

You could stay angry and vulnerable, which I do not recommend.

You could take revenge on them. Also I think probably not the way to go.

You could forgive them unilaterally. I don't know how you do that. Maybe this concept is easier to understand if you think of it as a process, rather than as an event. Not sure. I think of forgiveness as a transaction, and I don't have a good name for this one-sided version. I do know that it's fundamentally different from the other.

As a fourth alternative, you can learn how to let it all go.

It's not fair. It's not going to be. If you have a desire to see a fair and just outcome, you'd better get rid of that. You do not want to depend on that. There's a chance you'll never have the satisfaction of seeing their relationship fall apart. Maybe you'll never know how happy they are, how miserable they are, how much they regret what they've done, or whether they ever even think about it.

I believe you can let these cares recede, and that you ought to give yourself plenty of time. I don't agree that you have a moral obligation to forgive anyone. Though it's better probably if, rather than *refusing* to forgive them, you just cut yourself some slack and recognize that you are not required to do this, not from a moral perspective, and also, not necessarily from a mental health perspective.

With the people from my past, I've lost interest in trying to accomplish something conventionally called "forgiveness". Instead I try to take a position of defiance, where I just refuse to continue suffering from the injuries they gave me, and from their indifference to me.

As for how it all works out for them... I say let God sort 'em out (an expression, not a statement of faith). Time wounds all heels. Except when it doesn't.

GC

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Hiker -

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The lack of remorse or repentance indicates that one hasn't taken responsibility for one's actions. In the case of infidelity, which is so obviously wrong, someone who isn't sorry for their actions seems much more likely to repeat the same offense.

You pretty much nailed what I was trying to say. That's one of my few great "unanswered" things. For now, I'm content to wait and see what happens. Hopefully it's a bridge I won't have to cross, but in case I do I have to give it some thought.


Formerly known as brokenbird

BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05

Second separation. Working on me.

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
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(((Alphin)))

IMO graycloud said it best. Don’t wait for it. Let it go now.

And I second Bob’s recommendation to read HCIFY. It’s pretty good. Acceptance is a completely acceptable form of forgiveness that does not require any participation by the offender. And it works.

True story:

About six months after D-day 2 of the VLTA, while I was on my way home from work one afternoon I stopped at church to just sit quietly for a while. I had been doing this off and on for months. I always sat (still do) way in the back.

At this time I was at a peak of the anger cycle you read about around here. FWW wanted to move back home. I was still in Plan B. I did not know what to do, but forgiveness was not yet in my mind at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. I wanted consequences. I wanted repentance and atonement and compensation. Damn everything else.

This time there was a woman about my age way up front. Right at the altar. I could hear her crying. She was having great difficulty suppressing her wracking sobs. And I could hear her saying over and over, “Why did I not just let it go? Why did I not just let it all go! …”

This scared me no end. I could see me being her in ten years.

At that moment I decided to get to where I could let it go.

It has not been easy. It takes a plan and it takes a huge effort. It takes making a new life, with or without WS or FWS. It takes a choice – every morning.

I am making progress. I know you can too.


As far as God forgiving, or not. Leave that to God for now. Don’t worry about alternative interpretations of scriptural fragments. There are things you need to learn about yourself (and God) first. There will still be time to understand forgiveness and what you need.

IMO, God wants us to forgive, regardless of the state of mind of the offender. Why? Because forgiveness is for us. It is not for the offender. Forgiveness is so you can live again, and forget about the offender if that is what it takes.

Forgiveness is a process. You do not know what form it will take in the end. It may take the rest of your life. But it will surely benefit you every single day you make some small effort to figure it out, to take another small step.


“But how do I come to terms with the fact that WXH doesn't care how much he hurt his children and me?”

Remember, he is an alcoholic by all indications. Addicts of any kind care about no one but themselves! Eventually they don’t even care about themselves. Wait for it. It will all show sooner or later. As I wrote before, please be far away when it detonates.


Spiritual forgiveness, ethical forgiveness, Christian forgiveness, whatever… don’t worry about this stuff yet. Just let it go. Neither is acceptance (al la HCIFY) approving or allowing or implying it was OK. Read the book.

One last thought – Christian forgiveness does not actually require repentance on the part of the offender. In fact, unearned forgiveness may be the grace the offender needs to become aware of what they must do to earn back their salvation. It may be the trigger, perhaps, they need to start seeing the magnitude of their actions. This does not mean you remain vulnerable, or let the person back into your life. It simply means you are turning it over to God, who can do all things. And moving on. You do not even have to let teh offender know.

You have a rare opportunity here. Seize it for yourself. It’s all about you now. Finally. And that is good.

Forgiveness is very complicated and very simple at the same time. That’s why it is a process. That’s why you have to sort out your needs and motivations too.

With extra prayers,


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Alph

What kind of forgiveness did you have in mind?

There’s the forgiveness that involves accepting the human failings of the transgressors, and not holding the crime against them.

And there’s the forgiveness that comes from detaching yourself from the conviction that someone ought to pay the price for the crime that hurt you.

Detaching yourself does not mean that you accept that what happened was OK, nor that you condone it, nor that you reconcile with the transgressors. It simply means that you give up the right to marinate in anger and resentment – because it’s damaging you rather than the infidel.

You have every right to feel anger, resentment, bitterness and disappointment. You are entitled to hold onto those feelings till the end of time. But the brutal fact is that indulging in those emotions keeps you tied to the situation that engenders them. Your ‘rightful’ feelings keep you stuck, and damaged. So you have to choose to relinquish the right to hold onto those feelings - for your own good.

Giving up those rights is tough. If we ‘get over it’, it’s as if the damage didn’t happen. People won’t be reminded of how much pain we’ve suffered. The transgressors will breathe a sigh of relief and tell us it was all for the best. Whatever guilt they feel will evaporate. There will be no pressure on anyone to change or grow. Our efforts to get past our pain will benefit them, which seems deeply unfair. They don’t deserve our recovery, when they haven’t contributed to it, do they?

That’s why the ‘right’ to resent is so hard to give up.

But at some point, if we’re to recover personally, we have to relinquish that right, and learn to accept that what happened, happened, that what happens from now on is our own responsibility, and that whatever punishment has been earned will evolve silently, subtly and probably unseen by us. We have to accept that we have no control over the actions of others, and that if someone succumbs to the temptation to betray us, then there’s nothing we can do about it. The cr*ppy situation we find ourselves in may not have happened if others had been stronger and more loyal, but that was their decision – it’s as uncontrollable as having a rock fall on your car.

You have been freed from a toxic relationship, Alph. A new toxic relationship has been formed – stay clear, well clear. Keep strong and honest for your girls. You’re all they’ve got.


{{Alphin}}}.


"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
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Alphin, You and I have been kicking around MB for a goodly amount of time. We've gone through all the plans and here we are at Plan D for divorce. While I'm still working on it, you actually are divorced. Here's my opinion:

First of all, I don't think you should accept the fact that all is wonderful in affair land. From what I can tell, your XCH and the OW have been at this for less than 2 years. Statistics are that most affairs end after 2 years...a mark they haven't yet reached. How do you know they are actually happy? How long can a guy be happy with such a controlling partner? OW is always going to be walking around with these seeds of doubt and mistrust ready to sprout at any time. What security does she have except to keep tightening the screws? The controlling is a vicious cycle.

Second, I wonder if you worked through your emotions and all the stages enough. It took me nearly 2 years to get to the point where I could consider divorce, let alone actually be divorced. He's still got his emotional hooks into you. Someone once had a tagline that said that the opposite of love is indifference. You don't seem very indifferent to me.

Maybe you don't need to forgive him as much as give yourself permission to move on. Just a thought...


Grapes are versatile. Grapes can be sour, sweet, sublime as wine and fabulous even when old and dried out.

Me: BS
XCH: Clueless
2-DS: Bigger than me
1-DD: Now also bigger than me!

5/6: Personally served CH with divorce papers
6/6: CH F? wants to time to see if M can be saved
7/6: FCH reenters our lives to work on marriage but secretly signs papers to start divorce...what's that about?
Mediation set for November
Final dissolution in January 2007.
2008 and beyond: Life goes on...
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Thank you to everyone who has taken the time and trouble to contribute to this thread.

Forgiveness seems to mean many different things to different people. What I want it to mean for me is no longer having these destructive and negative feelings inside me so that I can get on with my life without constantly thinking about WXH and OW.

I guess it's close to indifference, but that's not quite it.

I don't think I could ever be completely indifferent to the father of my children. The OW, yes - but not the father of my children.

Putting geographical distance between us would, I believe, be the most important element in my healing process, both physically and emotionally. But I still worry about the effect this will have on my children.

Then there is the process I need to follow in order to 'forgive' or to 'become indifferent'. I know I need to follow this process - but what the heck is it? How do I do it? Do I burn healing-scented candles, recite mantras of forgiveness - what?

Or is it just one of those 'time' things? Man, I hate those 'time' things. I want to feel better NOW!

I never expect to get closure from my WXH. I never expect him to come to me and say all the things that still remain unsaid between us. I never expect him to say sorry, either, because I know he is incapable of it.

It is the unfairness of that - the knowledge that I will never have that - that eats at me.

I wish I could 'turn off' caring about it, but I can't.

Alph.


Me, BS 37 Him, WXH (Noddy) 40 DD13, DD6 Married 14th August 1993 D/Day 2nd April 05 Noddy left us 3rd April 05, lives with OW (Omelette) 28 Divorce final 6th July '06. Time wounds all heels... - Groucho Marx ...except when it doesn't. - Graycloud
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Then there is the process I need to follow in order to 'forgive' or to 'become indifferent'. I know I need to follow this process - but what the heck is it? How do I do it? Do I burn healing-scented candles, recite mantras of forgiveness - what?


Alphin - You ask legitmate questions. Let me ask a few in return, to perhaps aid in your thinking this through.

WHY do you feel the need to "forgive?" I know that maybe sounds like a "stupid" question, but it would seem that you are heading "headlong" into "moral judgments" that define "right and wrong" behavior. What is it that "defines" a "sin" or a "wrong" that requires any forgiveness, rather than it simply being a part of life, a part of "me first" normal human activity?

Folks are correct in saying that the word "forgive" encompasses many different aspects. That's why I asked you early to define what you meant by "forgiveness."

"Right and Wrong," as opposed to "Grey" or "Relative Morality," has to have SOME "yardstick" to establish what IS right and what IS wrong behavior at all times and under all circumstances. Without such a definitive way to measure behaviors, then they become "relative" to any given societal desire or pronouncement and MY definition of "right and wrong," or "holy and sin," as it pertains to marriage (or anything, for that matter), DOES NOT have to be the same as YOURS, or the same as anyone else's "Standard."

IF there IS a "universal Standard" that determines "right and wrong" for everyone, then the Authority for establishing that Universal Standard MUST be OUTSIDE of Man himself and Man's innate "selfishness."

This is, after all, a question of the reality of "good and evil." There are some who argue that evil doesn't exist, but if we wanted to go that way, then any action can be justified on the basis simply of "I did it because I wanted to and no one can tell me I was wrong." So I'm not going to waste time on that sort of argument. Clearly, YOU feel your husband's actions and the OW's actions were WRONG, EVIL, and perhaps even SINFUL. But we have to be careful here, because the concept of SIN comes from a universal standard established by a HOLY and SINLESS God. The others, "Wrong" and "Evil," CAN come from Man without God, but they are based on a "moving target" of what any given society decides is "right and wrong" or "good and evil" for their group (which they appropriate the right to establish regardless of what any other group might choose). They are "relative" and not "absolute."

Let me turn it a bit more personal if I may. Are you "perfect?" Or are you also "guilty" of some other "wrongs," perhaps not adultery but some other things that have "crossed the line" in the "Right and Wrong" arena?

If so, who do you need to seek forgiveness from? Why should that person choose to forgive you for whatever wrong you committed against them?

By whatever Standard you choose, if you are like me, you have NOT lead a "perfect life," free from ANY violation of that Standard. If that is so, then you need forgiveness too.

BUT, back to your "dilemna" : "Then there is the process I need to follow in order to 'forgive' or to 'become indifferent'. I know I need to follow this process - but what the heck is it? How do I do it? Do I burn healing-scented candles, recite mantras of forgiveness - what?"

You are correct, there IS a process. But the process begins with you and YOUR "wrongs" committed, before you can apply a similar forgiveness to others who have "wronged" you.

THAT is the reason Jesus Christ came into the world. He did so, so that you and I COULD be forgiven of our own sins first by the one true judge of "right and wrong," by the one who IS the Authority.

If you truly want peace and want to know how to, and WHO TO, release those feelings to, then you might want to truly investigate who Jesus is and WHY we all need God's forgiveness first.

Alphin, I have not forgiven my wife's OM. But I have turned him, his punishment, etc., over to God and put him in God's capable and righteous hand. The OM does NOT "get away "scot free."

Think about it.

God bless.

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Alphin, I have not forgiven my wife's OM. But I have turned him, his punishment, etc., over to God and put him in God's capable and righteous hand. The OM does NOT "get away "scot free."


AMEN!!!

Forever, My Brother, I always LOVE to read your posts!!

Thanks for being here...


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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ya know, i can "forgive" my ex almost, i mean i can move on i can be civil with him, etc... it is the ow i cannot forgive! a year and a half later post separation and working on divorce and i would still have no problem running the ho over with my car. why? well, you know, i have a big problem with women who break the girls code. Darnit all, we girls are supposed to stick together. whether we know eachother or not, we do NOT hone in on another woman's man. it is the code! i have no respect or tolerance for women who stomp on us like that. they have a group all their own. all of my exes ow belong in this group along with a few other women i am aware of who should be that have nothing to do with my ex but who i know are women who hone in on another woman's man.

so, forgiveness for her is a LOT harder for me. she broke the code. she doesn't even deserve to be a woman. she gives women a bad name. but i like leaving the punishment to God because yes, that punishment is HIS to dole out, not mine. she will get hers eventually, if she hasn't already started getting it now. ow already was trying to make me disappear. she and my ex wanted to raise MY children as theirs and make me disappear. but, haha, god is on my side not theirs and i do not go away so easily. ex filed for custody of his children and thanks be to god he is falling flat on his face. so they thought they could just take my babies from me? guess she learned she is messing with the wrong betrayed wife. i'd take her little powdered princess [censored] down in a heartbeat!

mlhb


God first, family second, and all else will fall into place.

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ya know, i can "forgive" my ex almost, i mean i can move on i can be civil with him, etc... it is the ow i cannot forgive!

Interesting. I'm the exact opposite. I don't feel any need or desire to 'forgive' the OW in any case - she is less than nothing to me (most of the time - she still gets on my nerves sometimes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )

But WXH made vows to me. He broke those vows, broke my heart. He promised to be there for me, but left me a few months after I was diagnosed with an incurable illness (which he made much, much worse by the way).

He betrayed me utterly. The OW is just a stupid, ignorant ho who didn't know me from Adam.

I know what you mean about the Code, though. I guess my WXH's OW will smart about that when he eventually leaves her for another woman! Because, of course, the Code only applies to other women and their behaviour - not to her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Alph.


Me, BS 37 Him, WXH (Noddy) 40 DD13, DD6 Married 14th August 1993 D/Day 2nd April 05 Noddy left us 3rd April 05, lives with OW (Omelette) 28 Divorce final 6th July '06. Time wounds all heels... - Groucho Marx ...except when it doesn't. - Graycloud
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"I don't love my ex any more. We divorced because he left me for the OW, and moved in with her. He is still living with her. I tried to save the M using the MB plan, but I failed."

Alphin,
Over time, I came to realize that forgiveness is unilateral. It it the choice of the BS.

In order to save your marriage, what you needed was reconciliation which required changes on the part of your husband.

What I have seen over the years is that the WS who decides to return to the marriage often wants to move forward -- basically, go back to disregarding the spouse and doing what he pleases, only maybe with the idea that having an affair wasn't so great for him either. In your case, your husband didn't even wake up to the idea that he's now with a woman who is willing to betray a commitment. Because he chose her over you, their relationship is shaky from the start. One of the more interesting posts I have seen on the MB private forum (where Dr. Harley answers questions) was of a couple in which children were left behind when a affair led to a marriage.

There can be cases like Johnny Cash, but mostly people who leave their spouses for an OP create a h*** on earth. He's certainly hurt you terribly, but it's his move to reconcile.

I guess what I'm saying is that it might help for you to realize that forgiveness isn't the real issue. Reconciliation is. He hasn't done his part to reconcile.

Respectful

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Thank you, Respectful, for your kind and thoughtful post.

I gave up a long time ago on reconciliation - even to a minor degree where I might have some kind of parenting relationship with WXH. Now the most helpful thing for me to do is to think about him as if he were dead - which he is, in a way. The man I loved and married is dead - he's more than in a fog (people emerge from fogs) but WXH's condition is permanent.

It's true that forgivenenss is unilateral. It is something I am going to have to work towards without anything from WXH. He and OW are never going to stop hating me for the exposure I did, or, as the OW put it, for trying to get my hands on her money! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> WXH is never going to be able to look me in the eye without wanting to spit at me, let alone apologise!

I have begun reading the book that b0b Pure recommended by Spring-Abrahms: How Can I Forgive You? I am finding it excellent. It is able to frame my previously poor semantic understanding of 'forgiveness' and has made me realise that forgiving the unrepentant too easily is often a shallow endeavour and actually self-harming. For my situation, acceptance - of the person who hurt me, of the situation, of my own contribution to my hurt - is the way forward.

I don't have to forgive him. I never have to speak to him again if it isn't right for me, or if it causes me more pain. But I do have to let go of the heaviness and bitterness in my heart, but only for MY OWN SAKE.

Alph.


Me, BS 37 Him, WXH (Noddy) 40 DD13, DD6 Married 14th August 1993 D/Day 2nd April 05 Noddy left us 3rd April 05, lives with OW (Omelette) 28 Divorce final 6th July '06. Time wounds all heels... - Groucho Marx ...except when it doesn't. - Graycloud
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Alphin,
Let your hope for the future be in fidelity to your values rather than a change in your XH's behavior which is now unlikely to occur. People can change. He could have a change of heart. That's part of the sorrow of a BS who sees so clearly what is the fog on the part of the WS, abandoning commitment and care for the feeling of love that may or may not last with the OP.

I read a book by Weisel and tried to find the title on our library's Web site. I think it was Night. He talked about his experiences with surviving the Holocaust. Your spouse's treatment of you, in my opinion, is tantamount to how the Germans treated the Jews. If you read it, it might help you in understanding how to think about your husband. How does a teenage boy (Wiesel) deal with Germans throwing Jewish babies into the air and bayoneting them? The book was helpful for me in not being consumed in anger with my husband's choice to have an affair and then blame me for his choice, but I am in a different place from you because my husband did give up the woman.

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Let your hope for the future be in fidelity to your values rather than a change in your XH's behavior which is now unlikely to occur.

I agree it's unlikely. This is why I find it so helpful to think of him as dead. How do you forgive someone - a parent, for example, who has treated you badly, remained unrepentant, and also died? There is no chance that they will write to you or knock on your day one day and apologise.

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Your spouse's treatment of you, in my opinion, is tantamount to how the Germans treated the Jews.

I'm not sure he'd appreciate been compared to a Nazi. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> He's always been so liberal! Seriously, though, I can't really see him in this light. When he left, he had convinced himself that his leaving was the 'best for everyone', that it would 'make us all happy'. Amazing, ridiculous - but I honestly think he believed that. I don't think he would have left if he'd known how ill it would have made me, how his 12 year old daughter would contemplate suicide, how his 5-year-old would begin having horrific nightmares and wetting the bed. But, that's the beauty of fog for the WS - it lets them believe that the opposite of the truth, is true.

Did those German guards who bayonetted the babies feel remorse after the fact? How can any human being not be tormented for a lifetime after such a crime? The problem with my WXH is that his crimes are not so tangible - there are no physical scars on my children - their wounds run deeper. WXH actually doesn't believe at this time that he's caused them any damage at all.

Perhaps he'll never accept that he has.

Alph.


Me, BS 37 Him, WXH (Noddy) 40 DD13, DD6 Married 14th August 1993 D/Day 2nd April 05 Noddy left us 3rd April 05, lives with OW (Omelette) 28 Divorce final 6th July '06. Time wounds all heels... - Groucho Marx ...except when it doesn't. - Graycloud
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Did those German guards who bayonetted the babies feel remorse after the fact? How can any human being not be tormented for a lifetime after such a crime?

Alphin - I'll try to answer your questions with one word....Secularism.


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But there's been nothing at all. It's like he's done NOTHING AT ALL. To receive forgiveness from God, you have to show repentance first.


Bob Pure wrote, and you agreed with him;

"You do know, Alphin, that in all likelihood your thread now will become a shouty theological debate that ends in bitter recrimination between humanists and theists, evolution & creationism will be bitterly argued by haughty people,none of which will help you address your hurt.


* sigh *
"

Let me ask you a simple question. If YOU continue to invoke God's name in your questioning of the "why" your husband did what he did, and your questioning of "how does one forgive as God (referring to the "Christian" God) has forgiven us," WHY do you "bother" with such questions when you have categorically stated that "I am not a Christian"?

The "answer" is that you are approaching things from the same perspective that your husband does.....what's "in it for me?"

Here's what you've said; " I am not a Christian. But I think this is a worthwhile approach to life for anyone. Forgiveness is about lifting a weight off of your own soul (or spirit, or whatever). My point is that I want to forgive, but cannot without remorse from WXH.

I know I can't shed my burden without forgiving him. And I so want to shed it."


Alphin, you "acknowledge" a "soul," or an internal "spirit," yet you reject the concept of God and Jesus Christ and YOUR need for forgiveness from God first.

Is it any wonder that you have trouble understanding your husband's seeming lack of remorse for his actions or his need to be forgiven for doing what was "in his own best interest" when you approach God the very same way?

Secularism IS "going it without God." To Bob Pure's "lament" or "comment," it was YOU, not myself or anyone else who "injected theology" into this thread with the very Title of the thread. I am sorry for what Bob is struggling with in his own life, but that doesn't change the facts, or the need to attempt to attempt to answer your question from a Biblical perspective, since that IS the direction you set in your opening question.

I guess in Bob Pure's opinion, I am "haughty." That's a somewhat interesting comment from him though, considering where HE was just 2 short years ago in his own struggle with infidelity. Right now, unless he has changed since he and I last spoke, he "blames" God for his wife's choice to commit adultery. I'll not get into all of that here, but suffice it to say that you are also "blaming God" and looking for secular answers that will "substitute" for God and His will and His answers. You are not alone. MANY take the same approach and only seem to "invoke" God in an attempt to shift the focus off of self or to "borrow" some authority that they don't accept for themselves.

So, IF the individual, without God, IS the "top of the food chain" or the "sovereign lord" of their own lives, WHAT outside authority has ANY right that supercedes the individual's own choices of what they want or what is "Right and Wrong" universally rather than individually?

Alphin, you think of Christianity as a "useful approach" to living a secular life, as anything else would be that the individual, in their own "sovereignty," chooses to "accept" as "useful" to getting what they want.

Christianity is about a relationship with the Living God. It is NOT about "usefulness" to "get what I want. That's the same problem that Bob Pure has in his lament that "God didn't give him what he prayed for."

What's missing in your search? Personal submission to God as Sovereign, not self. How SHOULD you know how to forgive without first knowing that you have been forgiven for your own "unforgivable" pile of sins? That your "unpayable debt" has been forgiven no matter how huge that debt may have been? And not because of what you have DONE, but because of what has been done on your behalf? That Jesus "paid the price in full" for you, taking your place and suffering the wrath of God for you so that you don't have to, IF you'll simply accept Him and surrender your life to Him as your Lord and Savior?

You are none of those things to your husband, so why should he show you any remorse for what he has, in his individual sovereignty, chosen as "best for his life?"

"How can I forgive...." is based in an understanding of how I have been forgiven for "things" that are "unforgiveable" by a Holy God. Without a "need" for personal forgiveness of sin, it is hard to understand HOW and WHY someone who has sinned against you can, perhaps even should, be forgiven by you in a similar manner to which I, myself, have been forgiven by the LORD.


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