Darn ! I should have put money on it !

Alphin, I am a Christian. That being said, I know not everyone has the same beliefs. I d believe that you can look at a persons actions and clearly define them as wrong using secular standards... even people without God in their lives know that an action like the one that happened at Nickel Mines is clearly wrong (went there today... about 15 minutes from my house... very powerful). You ability to forgive or not forgive need not be based in a relationship with God. Mine is... FH's is also. But I know many non-Christian's that are some of the most forgiving and caring people you would ever meet. Give yourself the gift of forgiving your WH. It will free you of the anger that you will carry around... it can be a cancer. That doesn't mean that you ever need to trust him or care for him on the same level. Just that you have freed yourself of carrying around the burden that he placed in your life.
The reason your H should show remorse for the things he has done to you is because he has hurt someone that he cared for. Feel sorry for the clown that he can be so selfish and hurtful and thumb his nose at someone that cared for him. These WS's are really sad clowns. Some eventually get their acts together and begin to act as the caring adults they should be... instead of the selfish children they showed themselves to be.
You asked how to forgive the unrepentant... choose to do so... for your own peace of mind. The "How Can I forgive You?" book is a great suggestion by BobP.
Best of luck to you.

MEDC - Just in case there is a misunderstanding here, I believe that we all have the "innate" ability to know what is right and wrong because the entire human race "gained" that ability through Adam and Eve and their partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It, like "free will," is a part of the "human condition" and is not dependent upon a relationship with God, or even an acceptance that a "Supreme Being" of some sort even exists (i.e.,atheism).

The "problem" comes in how one defines "right and wrong" for themselves, and how they can apply their own definition to others, given that we all have free will and the ability to choose "standards" of our own.

In the context of THIS THREAD, Alphin laid down the "groundrules" in her thread title:



This framed the discussion in how God forgives us, not how secularism may or may not define "forgiveness." If, as Alphin asked, God does not forgive the unrepentant, then if she is following "God's Standard," how can she forgive without a similar requirement for repentance?

MY responses are in answer to her questions, framed in a Christian perspective, regardless of her statement that she, herself, is not a Christian.

"Forgiveness" is a term with many meanings, just like "love" has many meanings. The difficulty with answering her question, or even with your idea that "Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself," is that the term "Forgive" begs a definition BEFORE one can attempt to apply it or "give it" to someone.

Let's take it out of the context of infidelity for a minute, to perhaps illustrate the difficulty of choosing "Man's concept of right and wrong as determined by Man himself/herself." To the current crop of Islamofacists, cutting off heads and murdering innocents is NOT wrong. It is a "holy crusade" and they don't care if anyone else thinks what they are doing is "wrong." It is "right" to them. They are not about to be "repentant," nor are they about to seek anyone's "forgiveness" for their actions. If their actions injure you, me, Alphin, Bob Pure, or anyone else, it is no concern to them. Shall we "forgive" them and say, in effect, "you are pardoned and there are no consequences for your actions, in fact, you can keep right on doing what I think is wrong because you think it's right?"

The "Standards" of right and wrong are determined by the "Group," be it society or terrorist or the individual. They DO NOT apply to any other group. Hence, they are Secular (or even religious, as in the case of the Islamofacists). Now, if you want to "forgive" them, you CAN. It may even make you "feel better" or make you feel somehow "superior" to them because you granted them "absolution" for your own "peace of mind."

But it has little practical effect beyond that and they don't value the "forgiveness" at all.

So we are back to the question I have posed many time, IF NOT God's standards of right and wrong, then WHOSE standards have universal applicablity to all people, and WHY?

God bless.

But the problem is, God's standards do not have universal applicability. Too many people have different beliefs. Ther will never be a universal standard... even after rapture... as some will never accept the Lord.

I do think people know right from wrong. That is whay crimes/affairs and wrong doings are hidden. I don't think for a minute that the Islam fanatics believe they are right... they hide their faces, their acts are secretive... people acting in a good and moral way have no reason to hide anything. Find me a person that has an A right out in the open... from day one tells his spouse this is what I am doing and why and I will believe that person knows they are acting appropriately. Otherwise, as when I was dealing with criminals... any attempt to cover up an act means the person knows they are doing something wrong. The only people that do not have a basic sense that injuring another is wrong, IMHO, are psychotics.
FH, I always value your view and opinion on things. I have learned much from you.

MEDC - This is where I would disagree with your position. God's standards ARE applicable to everyone. That's one of the reasons that NO ONE comes to salvation through their own efforts or "good works." God is Sovereign, whether or not anyone acknowledges Him, and God is the ultimate Judge of each individual according to His standards, not according to any of ours.




There IS a universal standard whether any of us "likes it or not." "Man" often tries to appropriate some of it, as in relying on the "Golden Rule" sort of thing, but we all fall short of God's standards. The 10 Commandments are one "set of standards," for example. Paul is another example. Of all the Jewish people, Paul (Saul) was a "righteous man" according to all the Jewish law.

"If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ - the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead." (Philippians 3:4b-11, NIV emphasis added)


You said, as part of your argument, "some will never accept the Lord." This is a true statement, and has always been true. But this not an argument against the universal truth of God's law but a proof FOR it. God judges and God sets the standards. That Man can, will, and does, reject God's standards is not new. Rebellion against God has been with us since the Fall. Substituting "manmade" standards, regardless of how "good" they is insufficient. And I would argue that those who reject Christ AFTER seeing Him when He comes again ARE NOT likely to "accept" a "good moral standard," even by some human standard. It will be the same then as it is now; human standards are "relative" to each individual and NOT universal to all people simply because each individual, without God, retains the "Right" to choose for themselves what is "right and wrong" for themselves.

In conclusion, let me give you one "example" of a "universal law" that is manmade (at least in the USA). Speed limits on our highways. The speed limit IS the speed limit. But it is broken by accident or by will many times by "good people" as well as "bad people." "Good people" still think of themselves as "good people," even though they choose to violate a standard that has been set as "universal" standard by "like-minded peers." It's "Relative."

God bless.

I don't agree with this.

FH, thanks for taking the time to reply...I don't agree with some of what you wrote, but I know your heart is always in the right place.

MEDC

MEDC - Anyone is free to disagree with anything I write. However, as a fellow believer, it would seem prudent that you state your reasons WHY you don't believe God's standards apply to everyone, or why you disagree with what I said.

What IS the "purpose" of God's standards, in your opinion?

Why DON'T God's standards apply universally to all Mankind?

What Scriptural support do you have that "Man" can have his/her own standards that may or may not be in concert with those set down by God?

It would seem incumbent upon a Christian, arguing against Scripture, to offer "supportive reasoning" for rejecting that very Scripture, which is the revealed Word of God, don't you think?

God bless.

FH... I don't think your position is grounded in Scripture. I think that people make choices as to what standards they have for their lives. Christians have a map. Not everyone agrees with or even knows about that map. So, the universal standards that you speak of mean nothing to a person that has yet to be exposed to Christ or that have chosen to believe in another God. I don't need any scriptural reference to explain that someone that has not been exposed to or has rejected Christ is not subject to the standards of Christianity. To me, that is just common sense. And there was nothing in your position that constituted proof of anything in my eyes... and I believe. All are not subject to the standards and will of God. They may some day be judged by those standards.... but they do not live by them if they are unaware or have rejected them.
I thought I made my position clear in the last post. Hopefully this clears up what I am saying.

MEDC

MEDC - you seem to be arguing at cross purposes. The "issue" is not CAN there be more than one set of standards that any individual can choose, clearly there can be and people do choose "other standards" for themselves.

The issue was framed by Alphin about God, and HIS standards. That is what I have been responding to.

In addition, regardless of our "opinions," it IS God's "opinion," as Sovereign Lord, as to what standards are a "higher authority." The "judging" of standards is not by Mankind (who is free to choose whatever they want) but is by God, regardless of whether or not anyone "believes in Christ."

THE "standard" of "Christianity" that applies foremost, and it's NOT "Christianity's standard it's "God's standard," is that forgiveness of sin for any given individual is ONLY in, and through, Christ, regardless of what anyone may choose to believe that is in opposition to that standard for GOD's forgiveness (as Alphin framed the questions).

So to the point of Alphin's question, "Does God forgive the unrepentant?", the answer is, according to Scripture, "No."

Her follow-on question; "If He doesn't, how can I?" implicitly implies that the "standard" in question for Alphin, even though she herself is not a Christian, IS God's standard, recognized by a non-Christian as the "standard" that she would like things "evaluated" by.

Let's take God's stand of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" as one germaine standard. CLEARLY people, both Christians and non-Christians CHOOSE for whatever reason to violate that standard. Are all people "subject" to this "universal standard" or are they not?

If they are not, then they CAN choose whatever standard that allows them to commit what others would call "adultery," and it is NOT "wrong" according to their standard and they, therefore, would NOT need any forgiveness by anyone. Their "sincere belief" does NOT change the "higher authority standard" of God, they simply CHOOSE to violate it because some other "standard" is more "useful" to their lifestyle.

"Absolutes" is where it would seem you may be having a problem, in that God determines what is right and wrong independent of Mankind. Mankind chooses to go against those standards, but does not get to "negate" or "supercede" those standards because no one is a "higher authority" than God, whether they believe God exists or not.

God bless.

I'm not having a problem.

MEDC - Okay, you are not having a problem, but you do seem to be arguing for "no universal standards" when, as a Christian yourself, you would seem to have accepted and understood that regardless of what anyone else might think, God IS the one and only Sovereign Lord of all.




On the contrary it is firmly grounded in Scripture. If you'd like, I can quote some pertinent verses for you for clarity sake.

But before doing that, let's just start with the "number 1" example. "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me."

When an individual chooses to put THEIR "sovereignty" ahead of God's Sovereignty, they ARE putting themselves before God and following Satan's original lie to Eve that "you will be just like God." It does not matter if someone has heard or not heard of Jesus, the "order of things" remains established by God and only His patience on behalf of Jesus "holds back His hand" at this time until the time of Jesus' second coming. Consider the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares for more clarity on this issue.



Of course people "make choices as to what standards they have for their lives."

"Christians have a map. Not everyone agrees with or even knows about that map."

Yes, Christians DO "have a map." Christians also have a COMMAND to tell others about that "map," not about "other maps being just as good." Regardless, there are very few people, if any, in the "Western World" that you could point to who have "never heard" about Christ. There ARE many who HAVE heard about Christ and have chosen to reject Him, rather than to submit their lives TO Him. "Sincere belief" in something, i.e., something other than God and HIS revealed will, does NOT confer upon that belief "rightness," nor does rejecting Christ elevate any chosen "Mankind based" set of standards equal to, let alone above, God's revealed Standards for all of Mankind.

If God is "Lord," then what He thinks is "superior" to what Mankind may think, regardless of what Mankind thinks. Let's extend that for the moment to the extreme. The people of Sodom considered homosexuality and homosexual activity to be "normal" and "good." God emphatically disagreed and brought the "point" home dramatically by destroying the entire city. "God's standard" overruled, if you will, the "standards" that the Sodomites had chosen for themselves.

A second example; God chose the Flood to destroy the antedeluvian world because there was "evil continuously" and God only saved one man (and his family) who had remained faithful to God as Lord and Sovereign. Again, regardless of what "standards" mankind decided they wanted to embrace other than God's standards, in the final analysis it was, and is, God's standards that are applied universally regardless of what mankind may think is "just as good for themselves."



As I said before, your "position" is not clear to me and simple statements such as "I'm not having a problem," do not add clarity, especially from a fellow Christian. What your "position" seems to do is add to confusion, not clarity, about the issue of Standards and WHOSE standards one might want to embrace. In the context of Alphin's questions, they add to the confusion because Alphin specifically asked about God's Standards and how they might apply to her situation.

If your "position" is that anyone can choose whatever "standards" they want to choose for themselves, regardless of whether or not they are "in concert" with God's standards, or anyone else's standards for that matter, then you should give your reasons WHY that is an appropriate "alternative" and what the "consequences" of that "individual sovereign free will" may or may not have on others. That is, after all, at the bottom of Alphin's questions as they pertain to HER life and her dilemna concerning her husband and the Other Woman.


God bless.

FH... as I have ofetn found to be the case... you are reading things into what i wrote instead of reading just the words. Regardless of what this thread started as... i was responding to a post later in the thread. There is a standard for you and I... there is no universal standard by which people live...not everyone here is a Christian... and the Western world is not the end of the universe. There are a lot of people on this big ball that know nothing of Christianity. You want to get into these huge global discussions when if you read my post... the thoughts I wanted to express are clear.



This is a poor example of what we are talking about since not everyone accepts this. These words mean nothing to the majority of the planet. For you and I they are words to live by... for others, sadly, they are not.... either by choice or circumstance. Tell me FH... how would you address the average North Korean who has NEVER been exposed to Christianity? How about the teenager growing up in Iran? Do you really think those words have any meaning to them.
My point was there are a lot of forgiving and wonderful people out there that do not call themselves Christian. Some are agnostic, some atheist and still others are Muslim. They can be caring and forgiving even without the aid of Scripture. Even though I am a saved Christian having accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior..I know that not everyone feels that way. Their exists a standard of decency in a society that exists even in those that are not Christian. If you want to have a theological discussion about something deeper than this... I suggest that you start another thread and ask any question you might want answered. I will be happy to express my beliefs to you in that forum. But as far as how I feel about a persons ability to be caring and forgiving without being a Christian, I think I have answered that thoroughly.
Be well.

A good Scripture for Alphin to consider might be: "Leave the dead to bury their dead." Christ was referring to unbelievers as the dead.

This started out as a question about forgiveness. I thought a lot about it and decided to go ahead and post my thoughts on the subject.

To whom am I accountable for my sin? I am accountable to God. Who is accountable to me for their sin? No one. Thank goodness. I do not want that responsibility to really have to know someone’s heart and to judge them. God is much wiser than me.

It is not my job to convict anyone of their sin, nor anyone to convict me of mine. That job belongs solely to the Holy Spirit. It is also not my job to change anyone’s beliefs. I believe that job belongs to the Holy Spirit as well. Therefore, this is not a post to try and change anyone’s beliefs. It is just a post to state my belief.

I agree on the passage where it states that if they repent you must forgive them. However, how do you know they repented? Only God knows their heart. They can tell you anything, and you have no way to know their heart. So, how can you only be commanded to forgive if they repent?

What about the passage in Mark 11:25-26? "But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you're holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins too."

So, if I use the reasoning that they must repent for me to forgive them, then I don’t have to forgive them if they have not repented and asked for my forgiveness? So, am I then basing my forgiveness on the fact that they have not repented?

Col 3:12-14 says: "Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection."

Luke 6: 37 - "Stop judging others and you will not be judged, stop criticizing others, or it will all come back on you. If you forgive others, you will be forgiven."

Mark 11: 25-26 - "But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you're holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins too."

Ephesians 4:32 - "Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you."

These scriptures do not say that you must forgive them and go right back to the relationship as it was prior to the offense. Forgiveness is not reconciliation or the restoration of the relationship. It is forgiveness. It is done in your heart and only you and God know your heart. The person you forgive never has to accept that gift of forgiveness just as none of us had to accept the gift of forgiveness He provided for us.

Because God has offered us forgiveness and we have accepted it, it is our responsibility to do as he has done and offer that same gift of forgiveness. Now, if they accept that gift and repent, then yes, reconciliation can occur.

Because we forgive someone that does not give them the power over us to continue in the way that is hurtful – that is why there can not be reconciliation until they do turn from their sin and it is obvious to the injured party. Then reconciliation is something that can happen if it is wanted by both parties. Just as Jesus died for forgiveness of our sin, we are not made a new creation with Him until we accept it and turn from our sin.

When we forgive someone what does that really do for them? Nothing. We can not offer them eternal life. We can not offer them salvation. In reality forgiveness is done because it keeps us, the wronged party, from building up resentment, anger, hate, etc.

This is not saying that we should ‘forgive’ and then ‘forget’ by acting like it never happened. No, we should be aware of the situation and guard against getting back into the same cycle, repeating actions that led to it, etc. Instead we should learn from it and grow from it.

Now, I am not saying this is easy or that I have even done it. However, it is something that I firmly believe is between me and God at the moment. Until I can forgive OW, I do not have a right fellowship with Him. Because I believe He has called me to forgive, I am in disobedience by not doing so.

Am I ready? Not yet. I have been praying about it. He is working on my heart. Thankfully, He has more patience than I do. Maybe this discussion is what I need to prod my heart into obedience.

I don’t think this has anything to do with making me ‘feel better’ or helping me get past a situation. I think it has everything to do with being obedient to the Word as I understand it and listening to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe that He has called you to forgive, then you are not living in disobedience. Because I believe He has called me and convicted my heart of that matter, I am in disobedience by not doing so.

When I make that decision to forgive, it will not matter to anyone but to me and to God. It is our relationship that will be reconciled and restored. You see if I had no relationship with OW, how can it be reconciled and restored? If I don’t eventually forgive her then hate, anger, and resentment will continue to grow in my heart.