Sorry this is so long...

nikko,
Some of the current issues are below. I'll post some other questions later if that's ok.

aussieswife,
I start IC July 3rd. Are you saying I should talk with Steve Harley also or just my H? My H saw his IC yesterday but it was his last appt. H said the C never said more than 20 words all the time he's seen him. He also never took any notes. He tried making an appt. with a different IC in our area, but the first avail. appt. would be Sept. May need to go out of the area which would be a long drive. For now, he's going to just go with Steve H. I feel he should make an appt. with a local IC even if it is Sept. What do you think?


I'm hoping IC can help me with this because it's one reason I feel my entire M was a fantasy.

H's answer to everything is "I just didn't know you then" and "I see you as a completely different person now". I feel this is crap. He is using it as an excuse as a way of getting me to just move on. He also started using the "I can't remember" excuse the day our first MC said it. He had no problem remembering when we started going through the timeline.

By saying "I didn't know you then", it doesn't leave any room to figure out how our M got to the point it is now.

Saturday evening, we started to go through the 15 Steps to Unfaithfulness. I wrote down the answers(for both of us). This is to explain how two people can end up in an A. See if you can understand why I became so frustrated.

1. Sharing common interests.
H's answer: He felt they had the same work ethics. He admired that she worked 16 hrs. a day.

2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
H's answer: I(me) was sick, she(OW) wasn't. I had gained weight(from meds), OW was slim.

3. Meeting emotional needs.
H's answer: OW started meeting H's EN's after the SF started. Doesn't feel she was meeting any EN's in the beginning. (My reaction: huh?)

4. Looking forward to being together.
H's answer: Doesn't remember ever looking forward to seeing her but maybe that's why we started going to the Wednesday night dinners. H's not sure.

5.Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
H's answer: He's always been dishonest, so felt this one didn't really apply.

6. Flirting and teasing.
H's answer: Neither him or OW teased or flirted with each other.

We didn't get beyond #6 on Sat. evening because I became frustrated and went to bed. Here are the answers to the rest that I've been getting since D-Day.

7. Talking about personal matters.
H's answer: They never talked. When he went to their house, he was always downstairs with OW's BF in the bar area. OW was always gone or in the kitchen.

You tell me, how can an EA/PA start from this so far?

8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
H's answer: OW has been giving him hugs and kisses for years because "that's just the way she is." "She's just an affectionate person".

9. Special notes or gifts.
H's answer: He never gave her notes or gifts(except for D-Day).

10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
H's answer: She called him to fix her lawn mower all the time. (She would give him a hug and/or a kiss to show her appreciation.)

11. Arranging secret meetings.
H's answer: They never arranged secret meetings.

12. Deceit and cover ups.
H's answer: There was nothing to cover up because they were just friends.

13. Kissing and embracing.
H's answer: She was kissing him more often after he started helping OW with night deliveries in March of 2005.

14. Petting and high indiscretion.
H's answer: There was never any petting or other touching.

15. Sexual Intercourse.
H's answer: One night after deliveries were done, OW grabbed my H in the crotch and said "we can take care of that".

My H said the EA started in 2003 but the PA didn't start until May of 2005. What H is trying to convince me of doesn't give me much hope of another A not happening in the future. From what I see, any woman that gives him a kiss or hug as a thank you can later just grab him in the crotch and have their way with him.

frognomore,

This is what I'm trying to figure out but only get "I didn't know you then" from my H. How can I change myself if I don't know what to change? I'm looking forward to IC and the additional support hopefully. We haven't had the best luck with C's.


Because of my illness, I'm not supposed to be in the sun and heat because it causes my illness to flair. If I overdo one day, I suffer for it the next 2 days. I used to be a workaholic so I tend to overdo things a lot. Stress also triggers flairs and I'm supposed to avoid as much stress as possible. Yah right! LOL


Now, my H does do most of the business stuff. I can't handle much of anything right now. Remember a few posts back when I posted what I have been going through since 2003. I was running temperatures as high as 102.5 and I didn't realize it because I always felt that bad. I was bedridden when they got to 103. H thought I was just being lazy.

There are many times I did production for our business by myself because he was always gone helping OW. I'm sure my H failed to mention that to you because he didn't mention it to our friends either.

I tried running the house by myself, but couldn't do much so things went undone for 2 yrs. I was also trying to take care of my parents and their property. I had no support at all from my H. Not even a hug or a shoulder to cry on because doing things for the OW and OW's BF was more important. The only thing that kept me from committing suicide back then was because my Sister#2 and I had to protect and take care of our Mom and Dad.

If I would have committed suicide then, it would have killed my parents and my sister. Suicide is not me, but that is how bad it was on a daily basis through 2003, 2004, 2005 when D-Day Feb. 14, 2006 was the final blow for me. It just never seems to end.

There are many days where I long for that peaceful, warm feeling I had when I was hanging between life and death, even if just for a couple of hours. I just need a break.

All I want is the truth from my H. This is the only way he can prove to me that he is no longer protecting her and the secret life they had together. I just feel like I'm being used by waiting 16 months and still no answers. Am I showing him he can still treat me this way?

My H just called from work. He is all upset because he just got a voice message from MB saying he missed the IC session this morning with Steve Harley and will be charged $95. He had verified his first session was July 19th not June 19th. The person on the phone basically said "too bad". I've never talked to anyone at MB before with that kind of attitude.

He was also told he has to make the call to Steve. When we were going through MC with Jennifer, she called us. His IC with Steve has been reschuled for this Thurs.

TW,

I am not trying to say you aren't doing enough I just needed a refresher on your guys dailey lives.

I understand your illness prohibits things I am just trying to figure out when I post to you or your H what your daily lives look like.

So someone not knowing would say hey you guys....

I saw your post what was missing was your daily grind.

So my question is this. Tell me what your H's day looks like.

Time he wakes up till time he goes to sleep. Not to say you aren't doing enough. It isn't about you at all it is about him.

TW maybe he is still trying to figure out why he had the A.

One of your MC's said in many cases it is unresolved anger that may be an underlying issue.

The good thing you are missing on this is he isn't throwing junk agains the wall.

My FWW said things to justify her affair that were lies in some cases or problems she caused.

I will give you a for instance. She Blamed me or said it was my FAULT that she had the A because when I get home I wasn't affectionate enough.

Now she was right. So it really upset me and we needed to get to the bottom of it.

MC- Frog is that right.
Frog- yes it is
FWW - see
MC - Frog why didn't you show her attention and give her affection.
FWW - because our he doesn't love m.
MC - please let him answer.

Frog - Well when I get home at night it is anywhere between 6:30 and 7:30 pm. Depending on traffic.

My car has no AC and the drives side window doesn't roll down. Due to my FWW's spending habits I didn't have the thousand dollars to fix the window and the AC.

So when I get home I like to go wash my face and change.

Then when I come out of the room there is usually chaos. OS is doing his homework. When I say doing his homework I mean my FWW finally decided it was time for him to start.

That fight lasts a while. We then eat and get the kids ready for be. They go to bed at 8:30.

FWW institued laying down with YS and now we both take turns laying down with him.. I fought her to not lay down but she over rode me and did it anyway and now it turned into this. Probably 2 nights a week one of us is in there until at least 10pm.

Add that to my FWW's alcohlism and it doesn't lead to a lot of intimacy.

Plus she drinks red wine and her breath is really, really bad and sour from that.

MC - Wow. So it isn't that you didn't want intimacy and affection.

FWW - Oh so it is all my fault. You didn't do anything wrong.

MC - He never used the word fault he was explaining your day to day life from his point of view. Is any of that wrong or exagerated.

FWW - No but I am in AA now.

MC - But what he just described was that real

FWW - Well yes.

MC so you were upset that the conditions that existed meant you got less attention and affection.

FWW - Yes

MC so what are you going to do.

I know that was long but there was a point to it.

My FWW just threw stuff out at the wall. SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHY SHE HAD THE A. HER FIRST INSTINCT WAS TO BLAME ME.

Your H might not know right now. IT took my FWW a long time to even figure it out.

Most of the time though she wasn't looking inward. She was looking at me saying I know he did something to make me do this.

Each time she changed my deficincies that led to her A caused more problems in our M.

Understand he may not know right now. But at least in the meantime he isn't blaming you!!!

aussieswife,
I appreciate so much your point of view. It gives me some understanding of what is going through my H's mind. I read your words, as well as others, over and over again. They help keep me grounded as best I can be. Thank you so much!!!

nikko,
I think maybe you also understand the deep hurt lies can bring into a M. My sister#1 is a chronic lier and I've never understood it. It has torn our entire family apart. It's so amazing how little things each one of you say will suddenly hit me. Maybe not right away, but sometimes after I've read your posts for the 10th time.

frognomore,
OK, I get it now.

After work, my H took empty barrels to a loading dock for a truck to pick up. He then went to the P.O. Box to pick up the mail. Got home at 5:00. I asked him if we were going to talk and he said yes.

I still wasn't feeling well so I could only work 3 hrs. We just had leftovers for dinner. H heated them up while I layed down. After dinner, my H put things away, unloaded the dishwasher and reloaded it. (The kitchen was very clean when I woke up later).

He then went in the computer room to check for the email from MB but there wasn't one. He will call them today. I thought he was ready to talk but then heard the ripping of a check from the checkbook so I knew he was paying a bill.

While waiting, I must have dozed off to sleep. I woke up at 9:45 pm and H was asleep.

H and I were awake at opposite times throughout the night. This morning, he said he tried waking me but couldn't. He layed down by me for just a moment but fell asleep.

The conversation between your MC, your wife and you would be considered normal WS talk wouldn't it? My H blamed me in the beginning also. But now, I just get "I didn't know the real you back then" as the answer to everything. It's almost worse because where can you go from that? It's kind of a dead end answer.

I want to thank you for not giving up on us. Even while you are going through your own issues, you never failed to support my H and me. My prayers go out to you and your family.

TW,

I have no issues my life is great. LOL.

Hey the thing I am getting at is there is progress. Yes what the MC and I went throug are normal WS garbage.

Youre H is past that point now. My FWW had a hard time of letting go of the justifications to even get to the point of I don't know. The next step is turning inward. Not something you can force.

One day the aha moment may hit him and he may say I know why now. He may really, really not know why yet. The answer he is giving you may be the only REAL answer he has right now.

That may change with IC and MC.

What time does your H go to work in the morning?

See for me with our schedule pre A I really had less then an hour a day with my FWW. In some cases she was too drunk to do anything or talk about anything meaningful.

AGain I will say this you guys need to work on communicating.

So part of what I am seeing is your FWH's consideration for you may be causing some problems. What I mean is he said he tried to wake you up and you didn't respond. He could have said get up I am finishing my timeline or we need to talk. Instead he let you sleep.

Part of recovery for me is seeing the little things. Stop for some time today and forget about his A, forget about his lack of communication.

Focus on all the good things he does.

I notice I never hear you say he isn't supportive of you. He picks up slack becuase of your condition, he drives a few hours to go to the doctors with you, he heats up leftovers, cleans the kitchen, works, pays the bills and cares enough about you and the M that he is going to go to MC.

The rest will come. You are not in a normal sitch here and you should try to understand that.

Your condition and his work schedule make it tough but I do see the commitment in him.

Hi TW

sorry for being away last few days but been worn out building a spa pergola after work.
Good therapy while H is deployed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
watching a 2 yr old as well as trying to level a floor beam is a challenge <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Talking to Steve Harley yourself? yes as I understand it Steve see's each person separately for fifteen minutes so that he can gain their individual perspectives.. I mean whats good a MC where both of you cannot attend?????? Make sure your H lets him know you a very willing to talk to Steve
But definitely a pro marriage IC to simply help you deal with all this crap. Your illness and this emotional ride must be impacting on you so please see if you can get someone, maybe your Doc can help ???? Maybe the Harleys could give some pointers on how to find pro marriage IC near you????

Now the questions.....

1 & 2 well yeah .. SF was the common interest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

3 who needs EN's when SF will do, he's most likely being truthful as he perceives it on this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

4 I'd guess it was the illicit nature of the A which was the likely draw at first. He needs to KNOW his own EN's and then carefully review the OW's actions to see if they were being provided even if occasionally.

5 I feel he is being honest here. He's admitted he's lied all the time probably because it became a habit.

6 OK thats a BS answer. He has already stated that OW kissed him, fondled him etc etc through some years, if THATS not flirting & teasing maybe I should go watch pigs fly.
I think he just does not SEE those actions in that light. It became so usual he just let it slowly become the norm. Needs a quite but firm pointing out maybe by Steve???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

7 Yes I can believe this one as mine was similar. Beyond agreeing with me every time I said my H was a no good etc etc ... very limited personal talk = not having to face I'M CHEATING thoughts .. avoidance behaviour

8 really answered by considering number 6 - of course they did just accept it without doubting.

9 yes it could be possible but it depends on the interaction between the two. One point being she did not want BF to know & he did not want you to know so no pressies unless ones they could leave at workplace. If he insists that he didn't perhaps he did not.

10 yep not unusual .... keep him on the hook throwing out a line or two, take as being fact.

11 & 12 Another BS ans. Of course there were cover ups & secret meetings or he would have told you he was bonking her wouldn't he?? You KNOW it and he KNOWS it!!!
Needs to be faced by him and another one for Steve to ask perhaps. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

13 & 14 FACT he says it happened. The moment he returned a kiss that was it. You can know for sure this happened he's clutching at straws here. Don't even bother to ask cause he did. Accept it as part of SF is my advice on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

15 SF - ok probably truthful. Well I guess this is the crux of the issue isn't it.. what can you trust to know he won't do this again? this is what the MC can help you both work through because you BOTH will need to work on this.

I suggest he's not really sure about the WHY. Its probably not a clear cut simple answer but one of mixed feelings, self entitlement, selfishness and yes stupidity. I do think he's in part being honest when he says 'I didn't know you then'. He spent so much time on himself its not a wonder.

But its telling that he's admitted it now. Its a start. A good sign if you will. But hes not totally there yet.
I suspect he's frightened as I said before of telling you the truth because it WILL hurt you. He thinks avoiding those bits & pieces is the lessor evil if you will. I feel Steve will get the message through its not up to him this time, is up to you to know what you want to know.

Don't be passive TW about MB counselling, make sure you are included and if you have to, ring Steve yourself.
Big hugs to you, its darn hard isn't it.
Take care

AW

frognomore,


Glad to hear that. By the way....Congratulations!

My H leaves at about 6:40 am to be at work at 7.

FWH had his first IC session with Steve H. Steve says the first thing my H needs to do is figure out why he had the A.

Steve H. wants to talk to me now. I have an appt. tomorrow morning.

I'm not sure what Steve can say to help. When we worked on our LB's & EN's it just made me angry. I have only 2 EN's right now and that's honesty and conversation. I had to add the 2nd because I can't get honesty without the conversation. Without honesty, the rest are useless to me right now.

Our OS was home for only 4 days so we were helping him get rid of things and get his house ready to sell. We also had other family things that couldn't be avoided.

I try to focus on all the good things my H does but it doesn't help alot in my sitch. H always came home to make dinner when I was sick even during the A. He would make dinner then leave to be with OW. He even did this during the 3 months just before d-day when I lived in the lower level of our home and we weren't talking. He said he did this because he cared about me and he does like to cook. I think it was so he could show OW that he did everything and I did nothing.

He also always said he loved me on the way out the door to be with OW. He is constantly saying "I love you", but the words don't mean anything to me now and tend to be more of a trigger.

We went to my sister's house this weekend. Not much conversation over the 2 hr. drive. I'm so frustrated. Last night when we got home from OS's house, there was very little conversation.

I was going to move in to OS's house, but he may have found someone to live there and take care of things until it sells. I would no longer have a place to go and my H knows this. So why tell me the truth when I have no other place to go?

aussieswife,
2 yr olds are fun aren't they?

Thanks for your answers on the 15 Steps to an A. They were very close to what I knew in my heart all along.

I will give Steve H. a fair chance. I'm kind of nervous though.


I do believe partly that he didn't know me. I feel he's using that excuse to his advantage to avoid admitting to himself the real reason for having an A. It's kind of a "one answer fits all" statement. I will be sure to talk to Steve about this.

He did know me for the most part because I was always open and honest with him. He knew my morals and values. I feel this way from the conversations we did have over the years. He may not have known some of the intimate aspects of my personality because he was gone all the time.

This is so hard. I never did like roller coasters and I hate the one I'm on now because it doesn't end or even slow down.

I just feel like I've been through all the emotions and have none left. I am becoming more and more emotionless and numb. I go to work when I can, but when I come home, I find myself going to the bedroom and shutting out as much of life as possible. My life is becoming paralyzed in a way.

Nikko,

One of my questions was "where was the 1st time"?
I know it was on a gravel road close to where our car machanic is. I told him I didn't want to take any of our cars there again because I felt uncomfortable with him having that road as a reminder.

I told him I wanted him to show me which road it was as soon as possible so I can put it to rest in my mind.

We took my H's truck to that machanic last night. He didn't show me which road. Did he just forget? I know he didn't because he acted kind of nervous by making continuous small talk until we got close to home. He was quiet after that.

Hi TW

I'll be brief, well for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, as its very late here 1.15 am in the morning ... I wait up in case my H calls from Afghanistan .. hope springs enternal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ..

OK the point of him not knowing you ... I feel its partly an admission of selfishness but he can't say that plainly yet. Its also an admission that the two of you probably drifted apart due to his absences, boy do I know that one.
Its such a easy trap

I do believe hes trying but not perhaps hard enough. and just so you know again, there are NO excuses, reasons why a person CHOSE to have an affair yes, but NO excuses. I think he accepts the principle but the detail is biting a bit.
I also feel that there are some deep communication issues between you both. Obviously you wish to express some issues and he wants to explain them but there seems to be no connection.. this really needs some work from you both

Please be open to what Steve speaks to you about. There are no quick fixes, not much he says will make you feel less hurt or angry, not right now. This is a very long process.
What Steve will probably want from you is some details and what you know, feel you don't know etc, but whatever he asks is important for him to learn the situation, but remember its just the beginning so not pls don't expect too much.
I still do feel you need a good IC for YOU, you have dealt with some big issues here. An IC can help you deal with those feelings, while Steve can help with the M, because though they are separate steps both are likely required right now. Pls consider this TW. I was dragged kicking and screaming to IC sessions at first so you are not alone in feeling its useless etc in the beginning.
TW you are hurting so much it comes through so clearly, but sometimes none of us need do it alone.

Thinking of you hope all goes well with Steve
AW

TW,

Good luck with Steve.

MC seemed like 2 steps back and 1 step forward a lot to me. So be ready for that.

What I would think about is your Love Bank.

Essentially what you are portraying here is no matter what your H does he isn't making deposits. Unless you FEEL OR KNOW that he has been completely honest.

I told you this before, he might not know or remember all of the details. Exact times, dates, etc.

It seems like if you find a discrepency your first thought and sometimes reaction is "LIAR, LIAR" if you aren't going to be honest then........

I will say this sometimes I cannot give exact details of stuff.

Are you willing to waiver at all? Are you willing to give some leeway? Can you say maybe it isn't a lie and that he is being dishonest. Maybe it wasnt' improtatn or maybe he forgot.

Or maybe he lied in the past and now is telling the truth and you calling him a liar and threatening to leave doesn't make it safe for him to be honest?

Why do you think he had the A?

I had a dang good idea in my case. She didnt' need to tell me exactly. I had the general framework.

What do you think it was?

I had my first C session with Steve Harley. He is very direct and to the point which I like. Steve said I am still at square one because my H hasn't answered my questions about the A. I can't move forward until that is done.

aussieswife,


Both of us agree that we do have communication issues.

frognomore,

My H does make deposits. The lies withdraw more than he is depositing right now. My love bank has been in the negative for many years.


I found out last night that he lied in the timeline. How much lying am I supposed to take??? How many times am I supposed to hear the words "I'm telling you the truth" only to find out he was lying? He doesn't get it when I tell him "I can't take any more lies"! I have tried my best to make it safe for him to talk to me. I'm tired and empty. I have nothing more to give.

I'm unable to work because the stress is overwhelming. I really don't have much to live for right now and the future doesn't look any better.

Why do I think he had the A? I don't know. He always made me feel I wasn't good enough so I tried harder. It didn't matter how hard I tried, I still wasn't good enough. I now feel more inadequate than ever.

TW first of all just a big hug [[[[tw]]]] because I do know how you feel about nothing to live for and no future you can see. My A originated from deep despair when my little boy died. I felt my H had abandoned me, I had nothing to live for I wanted to be with my little boy.
Its a living ****** to feel that way.

But I found eventually after months of self destructive actions by me that there is something to live for, my other children and yes my H. But I didn't get there without help. Without grieving and pain on top of all the A stuff. You are grieving for lost years in your M

You see you have your children and honestly they do need you in their lives even now. And though its hard to believe right now I do think your H wants and needs you as well. However if he's worthy of you, now thats another thing entirely.
Now that Steve has pinned him down it wll be the test in eating the pudding so to speak, will he now come clean?????
My guess is he will try to gloss over as much as possible at first, don't think he'll get away with it though.
Can you see the inane reasoning hes on right now? Tells you some really bad stuff about the affair but lies about the timeline which would help so much put it in context for you???? I mean thats how dumb we WS can be at this stage.

I don' think any of it is more hurtful than another part, not really.

TW I do feel you need a individual counsellor for you to go through your issues of feeling inadequate. Its not true... you bring up a family, with an illness, holding down a job, keeping a home together, THAT does not sound like a woman who is not good enough to me!! It does sound like a spouse who spent his time blaming you for anything he could to justify his Affair though! You see that is just so common its like out of a WS manual, we all do that, blame everyone but ourselves.
You see the logic here is very simple, if I can blame you I dont have to think about what I am doing is wrong.
Please take some action on this for your sake TW.

Again dont expect miracles, Steve will work away at both of you as he see the need to get your M on a plan for recovery or renewal. I found it better to think of the old M as dead and I and to make a new one. But whatever works for each of you.

please dont give up and get some help on those empty feelings and thoughts.

take care

AW

Can you give an example of the Lie you found out about?

For example my FWW told me "I did not got out with him on our Anniversary and she did." She knew she did and that to me was a lie.

She told me the first time they went out was Monday and it was acutally tuesday. That was a mistake. An inaccuracy but there was no intent to deceive me.

I think you may be handling every mistake or contradiction as a Lie. When they may be innacuracies.

Do you really think his intent is to deceive.

To me the way I would look at it is what does he have to gain from that LIE? If the answer is nothing then he probably forgot or misplaced it in time.

I really beleive it is time to recuse myself from this thread. My FWW would never do what your H is doing or trying to do.

I WISH MY FWW WOULD DO HALF OF THE THINGS YOUR FWH is doing.

I wish she had his attitude. I wish she picked up the slack while I felt like I was dying inside.

You have a good man that you will drive away if you continue down this road.

You don't know why he had the A? Common perception is there was something wrong in the M.

His EN's not being filled. Do you really think you are making your M A proof right now?

You feel inadaquate. This man is working a full time job, running a home based business, picking up the slack because of your illness, taking you to the doctors, putting together a timeline, going to MC with Harley, cooking you dinner, cleaning up the kitchen etc. AND YOU SAY THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH DEPOITS.

If I weren't a heterosexual man I might try to steal him from you.

To me it seems as though you are missing all of that and holding onto the LIES.

Yet when asked what Lies you are never specific.

aussieswife,

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss of your little boy.

I just don't understand why my H keeps lying to me after 16 mos. He sees what it is doing to our M. Yes, I am grieving the loss of my M. The loss of all 30 yrs. knowing now that my H didn't love me as much as he thought he did.

Does my H need me and want me? Sometimes I think so and other times I think it's just part of his plan. He told me he thought if I found out about the A we would have a big fight, go to MC and live happily ever after.

My H told me last night that he is still minimizing things about the A. He has lied for so long that he finds it difficult to tell the truth the first time. He said it is something he has to work on. Sounds like crap to me.

My 1st appt. with an individual counsellor is on July 3rd.

frognomore,

OK, I'm going to get graphic here. My H has denied having oral with the OW. Is this something that he could just forget?

Now says it only happened 2 or 3 times in a year. Would you believe that? He also said OW orga$med 3 times every time they had SF but their encounters were less than 15-20 min. (I'm not talking multiple one right after the other O's here.) He always had 1-3 hrs. with OW. (This is what he told me early on but now says 15-20 min. at the most.) He also insists they never spoke when they saw each other. (They must be telepathic then, huh)?

He also said there was no foreplay of any kind. She didn't like being touched. The OW just wanted the "main course".

Steve wants me to send him my list of questions. I don't have a "list" of questions and I'm having trouble coming up with a "list". I just need to talk about the A with my H and let any questions come up naturally. I need to understand in order to put the A to rest. Answers to a list of questions won't help me. I may have the answers but I won't have the understanding.

I've read about PTSD and the treatment is to talk about it. My H doesn't want to talk about it.

I'm sorry to hear you are giving up on me. Please understand that I do appreciate the things my H does for me. I don't want him to do things FOR me, I want him to do things WITH me.

I asked my H what EN's I wasn't filling. He said I was filling all his EN's. He was just not accepting them. He just told me the other night that the anniversary and b-day cards I used to give him were dumb. They used to say how much I loved him or he was my life. One time I made one that said I wanted to make love to him all night long. He thought that was especially dumb because he felt it was my wifely duty.

I gave him gifts for V-day, B-day, Anniversary, etc. but he didn't give me anything for the last 25 years. I gave up everything I enjoyed doing for the chance to be with him. I took up hunting and was going to have golf lessons until he injured his arm and couldn't golf after that.

I didn't say there weren't enough deposits. I said the number of lies he tells withdraw more than he deposits. He says the same words over and over to me like a recording. "I love you." He also said this to me on the way out the door to be with the OW.

So are you saying, that because he made dinner for me, had SF with me only after I was asleep, cleaned the kitchen and told me he loved me during his A and now, I should just be happy because it's more than most BS's get? I should just live with his lies because he is doing all these things FOR me (not WITH me)? Are you saying my H doesn't have to talk to me about the A?

I'm sorry, maybe doing things FOR you may fill your love bank but it doesn't do much for mine. I need the intimacy, the connection of doing things together.

Yes, my H is taking up the slack right now and is getting credit from you and the OW before the A. I did it all when he was injured 12 yrs. ago. I was taking up the slack before and during his A. I did the production by myself for our business, and taking care of my parents farm, house, finances, health, etc. I took care of everything around the house that I was capable of doing, I was doing this while vomiting because the OW poisened my meds and my dog. The OW still hasn't given up. She got rid of our dog, but I'm still here. Like she said, she always gets what she wants.

But I should just be happy because he is here now? I should have nothing to overcome because he is doing all this for me now? I should still let him continue to control where I go and what I do because he does all of this for me? I should only have SF when he wants to not when I want to? He doesn't need to talk to me or help me heal? He doesn't need to talk to me about anything other than the weather, the business, or work that needs to be done? It's ok that he still lies to me because he is doing all these things FOR me? It's all ok because he is going through MC? Everything he said to our 1st MC was a lie.

How can I get an STD before he says the A started? I've never been with another man in my life! I could tell he was with another woman by oral SF. I was correct 3 out of the 4 times. H says I'm wrong about 1 of them. I must have tasted something else. Ya right. But I'm supposed to believe my H is being honest just because he does things FOR me?

What in all of this will prevent my H from having another A? I let him lie to me before and he had an A. If I let him lie to me now will it prevent another A? Is that all a WS needs to do is just do things for the BS, go to MC and all is solved?

Is this the MB way? Sorry so graphic.

frognomore,

If you have decided to not post to me anymore, it's your choice and I respect that. I just want to say I do have a lot of respect for you and want you to know that your time posting to me has not been wasted even though it may appear that way to you. Thank you.

TW,

I think I see something here...

"I asked my H what EN's I wasn't filling. He said I was filling all his EN's. He was just not accepting them. He just told me the other night that the anniversary and b-day cards I used to give him were dumb. They used to say how much I loved him or he was my life. One time I made one that said I wanted to make love to him all night long. He thought that was especially dumb because he felt it was my wifely duty."

Can you see how much your FWH cut out of his own love bank? He's saying he wasn't accepting your love bank deposits and SHARED how he discounted them...told you the actual process he used then. Not now. Can you hear the high level of honesty to share this with you...that he believes you are safe enough to share what grieves and shames him inside?

Can you see you doing this with him, as well? As the BS, this is really important and difficult to get through to yourself...here is where I saw you do this...

"The loss of all 30 yrs. knowing now that my H didn't love me as much as he thought he did."

You see how you are the one wiping out all 30 years? Would you consider this scenario and tell me if it's close?

Your choice to believe his love for you would keep you safe...when you knew his love for himself was what was lacking? Would you consider this? That if you loved him enough for him, and he loved you enough for you, that neither of you had to really love yourselves as is...or possibly, you did for you, yet you know that he did not. At all. He lived through you...you told him he was great, then he WAS great...you told him he was slime, then he WAS slime...and this can be done when we say, "What you did was great" (equals WE'RE great!) and "What you did was idiotic, stupid or slimey" (equals we ARE an idiot, stupid and slime).

Defining ourselves through others is an act of self-betrayal...and I swear we betray ourselves for all our lives...until we stop, and begin defining ourselves, not others and not through others.

What comes with this constant self-betrayal? Self-deception...I read you as taking his answers as lies to YOU...when you are choosing to disregard, entirely, that he was lying to himself the entire way through his A...a human being has to in order to betray the love of their life...and you are his love. Justifications, resentment, entitlement, telling himself you didn't care, didn't love him, wouldn't know...a hundred lies to himself a day.

That's the fantasy part. Which makes it really difficult to recall details...not to cover up and lie (and I DO believe he lied directly to you many times, even after DDay to "protect" you from further pain. I no longer believe he's doing that now...except now, he's discovering how unaware, automatic, NOT REAL he was during the A. Answers change as he changes...he didn't have this clarity back then...fog is real.

This isn't an excuse. And you do not have the power (no human being does) to make him not lie...or as you phrased it, "I let him lie to me before and he had an A. If I let him lie to me now will it prevent another A?" You have your half of every lie you're told by anyone...the choice to believe or to not believe...you aren't powerful enough to allow or disallow lies.

And no, lies aren't what enables, nor does truth prohibit affairs...deception is a result, not a cause. I know this from life experience. What makes a serial cheater not cheat...same thing they did to cheat...they chose. Knowing this is a choice, not an accident, an oops, a "oh, did I do that?" kinda thing...and knowing the boundaries they crossed, their own weaknesses, their half of the marriage, their power and limits...which is all part of loving your whole self...that's what will protect YOUR marriage from infidelity.

Not discounting love deposits goes a long ways, too.

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TW, would you consider one other offering on my part? Since affairs are the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect (Gimble)...can you see where your resentment may be entitling you to withhold, abuse, disrespect, attack...fear alone can give us permission within ourselves...even permission to sorrow, to despair, to hurt back...and thereby you betray your own self, which doubles your hurt and pain, prevents healing, highest honesty and safe communication to discover who you both are right now?

The allure of an affair is the fantasy of a clean slate...no injuries done to your fantasy partner and they haven't done any to you (see the fantasy?)...they are full of only positive stuff. In recovery, we learn to see our partners as a clean slate in a way...not having nailed them down into labels and categories or compartments. We discover who we are today...and in doing so, we kill the allure of fantasy. Which is why A's aren't about love, really. Not real love.

TW, your FWH is acting on his own choices...he's acting from his choice to love you--you can't earn it, can't punish it out of him and you can't make him not love you. It remains his choice. He's changing...and I want to ask if you are? Not as a bash...if you're blocking his deposits, and from your post it sounds as if you are, then are you gaining more from your own resentment, and if so, is it a real gain?

As humans, we cannot argue ourselves into love, trust, security or happiness. Your pain is years old. It's valid and very, very real. So is your fear, anger, frustration...all you feel. You have been really injured, wounded as deeply as you go...what is left is the question you may not have an answer for right now...

do you want to heal all your wounds?

Seems to me you do...you're going to IC...you are in the marriage...and you want very much to stop hurting. I know you can...I have no doubt.

LA

Thankyou TW having kids of your own I know you can understand that particular pain. God has his own plans I guess.

TW yes you can and perhaps should grieve for your M. You have for some time. When does grieving stop and life begin again? I wish I had that answer. All I can say it just happens, with a lot of work with a IC, a MC and love from family and for me returning to my faith. The trap is what I did. I began to feel my H abandoned me and our kids, I began to feel self pity and nearly lost all that I loved.

This just SO SO classic a WS trait, the total fantasy of it all, completely removing themselves from reality. What I would ask you to consider here is your H total admission of guilt and frankly crap behaviour in the PAST. He wanted you to know what he did, no sugar coating. he is saying "Here, this is what I thought"


TW I feel that this one point, the minimizing, is the make or break thing here in your decision to fight for you M. Am I on the right track? If so this is what you MUST tell Steve. Be absolutely honest, don't think or worry about what may sound too hard or tough or anything, just tell what you feel about it. If to you the questions are a way to confirm the truth, that is you ask the question a number of ways to test his veracity, that is not unusual from what I have observed, you may not have specific questions as such, is this right?
However I do disagree with your thought that its crap and therefore from that just more lying as usual. It's not exactly that I believe.
Why? Because I can remember my own TOTAL desperation and fear of losing my M and the way I twisted and turned to avoid telling my H the TOTAL truth of what I did and when and how. I avoided and avoided and told lies, small ones but still lies, to not give him the full information because I was SO convinced no matter what he said, the IC & MC said, my family said, that once he knew he would be outta here fast as a Bondi tram.
Of course I was wrong & in hindsight know he needed it to forgive, he needed to know what to forgive thats the way he is, some people don't need or want that, he did. It sounds like you do as well in some things.
You see TW I had lost my compass in life, I didn't know which way to turn to 'FIX' it. It took me a while to realise I couldn't by myself. Your H has to learn this, so please don't give up, let Steve work with him and you.

I am glad for you TW that you will do this, you have taken on a lot in recent times.

In short No this is not the MB way at all. Steve will guide you through the right way so much better than I, but honesty is a MUST. Graphic is ok.

Loving Anyway has made some great points too TW. I know you must feel overwhelmed at times right now. Just handle what you can one at a time.

Forgiveness TW? I have spent some long and agonising times wondering about forgiveness. There are supposed to be two different kinds of forgiveness. The first is a willingness to forgo vengeance, but not to try to repair the relationship.
Giving this type of forgiveness is really just plain good mental health for anyone. Its I think the easiest of the two for many. My priest gave a sermon on this and said
“Ask yourself how much does your hatred/pain hurt your husband/wife and how much does it hurt you? What will your vengeance, if you ever can find it, cost you? Will it ever be enough? Is there anything you can do to keep the hate/hurt from eating you up except to release it?
This type of forgiveness is what allows you to stop letting what someone has done to you to control your life. It does not mean that you have to spare the other the consequences of what they have done. You don't have to like them or even wish them well. The important thing is that you can't forget about them until you have decided to forgive them. “

The other kind of forgiveness, full forgiveness, is much harder. It involves trying to re-establish a relationship, perhaps never as it was, never as it had been, but a new full loving supporting relationship. The thing is though that full forgiveness is only possible if the other party repents and also works to repair what they've done.
When you think on it. It’s all pretty standard MB thinking isn’t it?
"Forgiveness is a decision not an emotion."
Forgiveness is as much about helping you as it is for those you forgive, even if they don’t want it.
YOU are the winner.
What’s easier I wonder … forgiving or accepting the forgiveness?
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LovingAnyway and Aussieswife,
Sorry I haven't posted in a few days. I can honestly say things are not the same as they have been for the last 16 months. I have so much to tell you.

Just got off the phone with Steve Harley. My H talked to him too. What a SMART and INTELLIGENT man!!! He has a plan for us. I have my 1st individual councelling session today also. I will answer all your questions but I have to go to work now.

Nikko,
What did you say to my H? Something you said to him really sunk in and he started to talk. I noticed a change in him on Sat. and Sun.

More later. Have a great 4th of July!

Oh thats GREAT. I do hope it is looking so much better for you. When you can let us know
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
AW

i'm not gonna tell you what i said to him....just like i don't post to him what is said on here....but your welcome!

stick with steve...he really is the best....and his bull detector is amazing....so is mine and i think your hubby got called on it by both of us!