Karona, what does this really mean?


AGG, if she were really someone I love (as a FWoB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) and do enjoy being with, I would tell how I really feel when she says things like that.
If it's someone not so important in my life, I would tell - no problem, I can lend you money for the supper and you give me back when you are in a better financial position.

Good advice here, thanks. J and I have been friends for many years, and we have similar (dry) senses of humor, so she often "jokes" about the "you make the big bucks" thing just enough to make it seem like a joke - but in the end, I get stuck with the tab, which is no joke.

She is doing fine financially; she owns her own home, gets a pension and Social Security for her husband, and has a job. She does have two kids going to college soon, but I don't see why that should require me take her out to dinner. Heck, I have expenses too, a mortgage, two kids, and *I* don't have pensions and Social Security helping me out.

I think that I will try to be upfront about it next time, and if she jokes about me taking her out to dinner, I'll simply say that I'll be happy to pay for her this time if she is struggling financially, if she will pay for me the next time. Smooth, ain't I? What I am afraid will happen though is that she will say "I was only joking, sheesh, I can pay for myself just fine...". We'll see...

AGG

Hehe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

For me, it meant going as friends. That we were no pretenses concerning the evening.

I wish all women were as straight forward and honest as you Karona. Men can and do enjoy just going out and being in the company of a new "friend" without anything else being involved. Being up front about it only keeps problems and emotions from cropping up later.

The issue is to find the type of person who is principaled and thoughtful enough to actually speak up about it. I my limited experience over the last year not many women in my age range have much in the way of either of these qualities. Usually they wait until they are in a situation where things are getting romantic and then the words come in droves. Now I know mlhb will be all over my comment here so let me say this now- the two of you are definitely exceptions to this observation on my part.

awwww... thank you duk...
i will only be all over you for being in hiding!

come out and play with us more often duk!

mlhb

Thanks Duk!

Its about respect. Respecting myself and the nice guys I've been out with. I don't need new pain and drama and neither do they. If it's not there, it's not there. I'm not going to go for a test drive [for the heck of it] and then throw on the brakes.
I take dating seriously. No games please.

There are good men and women out there for us all. We just have to keep looking under the rocks!

K!

I'm trying to understand this. Of course, it ties in with another thread here where nams said: "I guess this begs the question can you really be friends when you been something else?"

I agree with "No games please" but I've never been able to figure out how "dating" is supposed to happen without games. They seem to be an expected part of the model, and even an attempt to deviate from the model can be perceived as playing games. ("Yeah, he said we're just friends, but what does he really mean?")

What does it mean to date "seriously"?

And assuming we're talking about a romantic spark when we say "If it's not there, it's not there," I agree and think there's no sense in trying to force it if it ain't happening. But on the other hand I'm still not convinced that if it's not there, it will never be there, given time and opportunity to develop.

My take is still that the wisest course of action is not to date seriously. Start a relationship with simple friendship without worrying about whether romance will blossom. No test drives; no need to throw on the brakes. (And by "test drive" I'm including even the seemingly innocuous sort of behavior referred to by nams when she said "Keep in mind we were never intimate but we did some touchy, feely.") By the time you know each other well enough to gauge romantic prospects, there shouldn't in theory be any reason to shift into reverse.

Unfortunately, there are several problems with my position. For one, it assumes you can ever get out of the "friend" box. When this does happen, it often seems to be precipitated by someone making some sort of advance which gets the hormones involved enough to override the blinders imposed by the conscious mind's understanding of the relationship. (Oops! Now the car's in gear. Do we go for the brakes or the accelerator?) And if romantic feelings do develop in the slower more friendship-oriented way, it is unlikely that those feelings will develop in both parties at the same time and the same rate - not without active hormonal stimuli to accelerate them beyond what wisdom would advise! Compounding the problem is that it's sort of taboo to discuss these feelings or their possibility, since prevailing belief is that you should sever contact with someone when "feelings" are present on only one side. For some reason, it's considered too hard to just be friends when there are unreciprocated feelings involved, although ironically it doesn't seem to be all that impossible as long as the feelings remain unconfessed.

I suspect that the impatience of our culture pays a part in the mess. Slow and steady is sensible, but everyone wants a full-on relationship now! It probably doesn't take any longer to find a good partner by building multiple simultaneous friendships slowly than it does by jumping from one burn-and-crash emergency to another, but by and large people seem less interested in finding a partner than they do in finding romance.

By games, I mean, not pawing on the guy, being giddy, whatever one would like to call it. I'm not going to come across as being all into him, to throw a curve and tell him later, naw....not happening.


For me...it means, only making myself vulnerable to those who I feel potential with. There have been two in the 3.5 years of being single that I've felt that with. The others, they were my one date wonders. That left me wondering....wondering about the whole dating process.



Precisely what I'm talking about[no romantic spark]. The guy in particular that this thread is about has very nice qualities. I even remember seeing him before I met him, and thinking to myself, whoa, who's he? But, now that I've gotten to know him somewhat, I still find him very nice, attractive.....but as far as him fitting in my life or me his? I feel we are very different. I don't see it ever changing.

I'm in agreement, that a friend based foundation would be pretty great. Can you imagine the surprise to both involved when it turned romantic?


Okay, well, I know for me it would be guilt. As long as I knew I felt only friendship and I assumed the guy did too, everything would be fine.
However, if the guy at some point confessed something more? I think I would become uncomfortable. There would be guilt, because I didn't share the same feelings. It would make our "friendship" now awkward.

Am I remebering a "friend" of your's that you used to speak of??

Yes, we do live in an impatient culture. I've become much more patient in the last year. I'm willing to wait it out.
I waiting for both though....the great partner and romance. I can have both right?

And Gnome....I'm "tenatively" headed up Gnomes-ville way for Thanksgiving. My eyes will be peeled for any Gnomes.
I will be back on the board with a full report if I've seen!

As always, enjoyed your input.
K!

Hi K, You can see how often I check in these days. Actually, after almost 6 years, I'm kind of relieved to be able to step away.

Our dating stories really do sound too similar, don't they? I was already thinking Mr. 11 weeks (that's how long he told our mutual friend we'd been dating as compared to the 5 year off-again-on-again R with his very jealous new wife) and I were soulmates, but he obviously just wasn't that into me, as the book title suggests.

Other than my still recent break-up, I'm doing fine. I've chatted with a few on-line guys and dated one, felt no spark, wrote him an e-mail thanking him, told him I wasn't really ready for dating, suggested we be friends, and never heard from him again. I wanted to spare him any grief if he was thinking there might be more since he'd suggested getting together again.

Dating is so hard... I've dated a couple of those one date wonders now. Nice guys, good conversation, successful careers, nothing wrong I can see, but we just don't click. It's such a hard way to get to know someone. Who knows if I met these same guys under different circumstances if we'd grow on each other - the friends first thing.

This coming monday is the latest property settlement hearing with my XH. Last time, the judge addressed XH's obvious stalling by telling him that this case has been going on for 5 years and is crying out for settlement and he intends for it to be settled within the next 30 days. YES!! That was 2 weeks ago.

I was never in love with XBF or he with me, despite dating for 3 years, which makes friendship easier. I'm also friends with one married man, who just recently told his wife and then me that 5 years ago, he'd fallen in love with me after my XH left during a rough period in their M! I knew he liked me, but I've always kept very strict control of our friendship. Fortunately for me, I'm not in love with him either. The most interesting part of this is that they both now credit me with saving their M because I remained friends with both of them and never allowed him to cross any boundaries. After being cheated on and all the stuff I learned here, there was no way!

Thanks for the clarifications, Karona. You've got an interesting equation there: "dating seriously" means "making myself vulnerable." That makes sense to me, although I can't help but note that vulnerability can look very different for different people.

The bit about finding someone "very nice, attractive" but not being able to see how one another's lives would fit together...yeah. Sometimes I think I can see how the fit might go, and that's what keeps me from becoming too interested. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are no doubt remembering correctly about the "friend" whereof I used to speak. We were friends, but she knew I was interested and I knew she wasn't. I was OK with that, because I valued our friendship as a friendship, and I was pretty confident that my attraction to her would not get in the way of other possibilities, should I stumble across any. However, that whole thing ended very badly, and I don't suppose I will ever understand why. Analyzing reductionistically, the "guilt" factor makes no sense.

But of course feelings are not obliged to make sense...

Thanks for the offer to peel your eyes. I'll probably be traveling Thanksgiving week, but my own schedule doesn't even qualify as tentative yet. If we're in the same general neighborhood at the same time, I'd be interested in seeing if making some sort of connection might be possible...

It's a shame about your friend Gnome. I remember you speaking of her some time ago. Sorry to hear it ended badly.

I agree, we will all have our varying degrees of vulnerability. If my description made a little sense, I'm glad!

Are your Thanksgiving plans coming together?
I've finally committed to my travel plans. The only thing left to settle is which day I head up. Such big tasks for my mind.
I "think" I remember your general location. {I say think because I'm thinking I may have you confused with someone else that used to give great advice} If we were in the same general area it would be nice to meet another "board member". Hah, sounds impressive anyway!

K.

My Thanksgiving travel plans are still fluid, Karona. I'm in the northeast quadrant of Ohio. If that's the same region you were thinking of, you could contact me at [email]GnomeDePlume@xemaps.com.[/email]

That would be the general vicinity Gnome!

I'll mail you soon and see if we will be near each other at any point.

I guess I don't understand the games: ie: being giddy, pawing all over someone, getting all dressed up trying to 'impress' someone when you go out. It doesn't make sense to me.

I don't recall ever 'dating' like that. I dated A LOT in the past. I even went out with guys I wasn't particularly attracted to, because they were nice people and even if the relationship remained just a friendship--I was gaining a good friend.

I would go out with groups of friends, guys and ladies, we would make them fun get togethers, dinner, roller/ice skating, then out dancing. Everyone paid for themselves, no pressure, but everyone always had fun. And in that we were with a group, and not dating anyone, we could dance or skate or whatever with other people not in our group, so there was no jealousy, or someone's feelings getting hurt or any of that. We'd go to various bars and what have you meeting LOTS of people. When we found one place we liked better, we would frequent there more often. And by dancing w/ a variety of people not within the group, it opened the doors to meet many potential dates, and your close friends have already met them, so they can see things you may not see. I can remember one guy who would always ask my friend to dance, well, at one point he asked me to dance, not because he was interested in me, but because he wanted to ask me questions about her. They ended up dating for awhile.

There were other times when we'd meet someone who we thought was attractive, and we knew we would be going out that weekend, we would let them know--"I'll be at such and such this on friday/Saturday night, if your free, why don't get some friends together and go up there, we always have a blast." If they are interested...they show up..it's not a date, but you can dance with the person getting to know them in a non-date setting, and no pressure for who is going to pay for anything...if they offer to buy you a drink, say thank you...and then you buy the next round..no pressure on either one of you. And if you find you like the person, you can pass along your number...where they can call you later and you can make plans to go out another night, even if just to meet back up there the following weekend or whatever.

There are no games, no trying to impress them, because your out with your friends, and having fun..

I have found that people want people to be real, and if your to busy trying to impress them and making mental notes about what you like and don't like that your really not getting to know them as a person. But if your in a relaxed atomosphere, with a groups of friends, your noticing who you are attracted to and not..and if the initial spark is there, well, again, you can either pass along your number or not.


So do you have mutual friends?? Maybe instead of going out on a one-on-one date, get ask a group of friends to go out and invite him along as one of the group. And let him know before hand there are going to be a group of people..

We are going to go to dinner then out dancing at such and such...even the bars serve coke or water for those who don't drink..so even though he doesn't drink he may not be averse to such an activity.

Of if you don't want to go to a bar, you could go roller skating, or bowling or miniture golfing, paint ball, laser tag, go-carting...just something fun, where everyone going is paying for themselves.

I've just always gotten to know people first in group settings and if things and even if I started dating someone w/ in thr group, I still didn't need to try and impress them
when we did go out as a couple because we already knew each other..and we already know if there is some spark or not.

Even w/ my current husband, when my friends and I went out, we let him know he was welcome to join us if he wanted too..
and would let him know where we were going and about how long we would be there..if he showed up he showed up, if he didn't he didn't...I still had fun with my friends.

so if you don't have a group of friends you go out w/ regularly, get some and then go from there.