Update:

After I’ve received Dr Harley’s e-mail yesterday I’ve send the following follow up question to him:

[color:"blue"] Dear Dr Harley,

Thank you very much for you response earlier today. It did help to clarify.

I want to ask you a follow up question if you don’t mind, but before I do so I first want to give you more background on my situation (something I failed to do in my first post):

My H is still unemployed due to victimization and unfair dismissal almost 3 years ago (my H’s Unfair Dismissal court case is still in process). The reason both me and my H has not succeeded in finding other jobs yet for the past couple of years is because of “affirmative action” in this country e.g. black empowerment in the workforce (appointment of people in the workforce who belongs to the majority group e.g. African blacks). My H and I belong to the minority group (African whites) who are last on the list to be appointed in new jobs. Therefore, me and my H still fail to create extraordinary conditions (e.g. quitting my job and move to another state) to ensure that I will not accidentally see the OM again because of the above reasons & circumstances. However, in spite of these “obstacles” we are both very committed to each other and our M.

Do you think it’s possible that my H and I had a “false” recovery before the one day resumption of the online-EA a few months ago and do you think there is any hope for total marriage recovery and individual recovery in spite of these personal circumstances and obstacles?[/color]

Bob –

No.

I agree, but this is not the issue Bob.

The issue is that it will not be in the best interests of my M and H to expose to OM’sW WITHOUT my H’s agreement and if he objects to it. This is what my e-mail to Dr Harley was all about and what I’ve seek input on.

To all others –

Although exposing to the OP’s spouse is indeed the caring thing to do (I 100% agree with this statement), Dr Harley advised against it IF the BS objects to it. Exposing WITHOUT the BS’s agreement will be “uncaring” & ignorant behavior towards the BS…and the BS might also perceive such action as another betrayal & disrespectful...especially if exposure leads to serious consequences/downsides which will have a direct influence on the BS’s life.

So this really leaves the FWS in a difficult place because in the FWS have to choose between either caring behavior towards the OP’s spouse or caring & non-ignorant behavior towards the BS…and unfortunately the one which are chosen will give the impression that the FWS is “uncaring” towards the person of the action which was NOT chosen…even if it's not true... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Suzet , if your H actually ENCOURAGED your continued contact with OM ( for whatever reason ) would his desire overrule your marriage's best interstss there too ?

What if he suggested swinging ?

You will say there is a huge difference here - but in truth there is not Suzet. Your principle here is that your H's expressed desire for a non-marriage supporting behaviour is overriding your marriage's best interests. How far would you take that premise ?

How about if his desire prevented something you WANTED to do, rather than sonething you absolutely do NOT want to do like exposing to OM W) ?

Suzet formerly with a star,

I only say this because I like you. As I recall (and IMO) you never really were aware of the fact that you really had an affair until the recent email incidents. You just thought it was an inappropriate friendship until you found yourself expressing undying love. At least that's how I remember it.

The way I see it, you are still as vulnerable to this OM and your A today as you were then. All he has to do is send you one more email telling you how much he loves you and you could go down for the count. I think that it is especially risky since you still work with him. You have no control over him and he operates with impunity. It seems that you blindly and blatantly ignore the critical rule (extreme measures) yet adamantly defend the optional rule. I'm sure you have your reasons but you are still cherry picking. Your M is also still at great risk and totally beyond your control.

I only wish you the best of luck and I hope OM never tries to contact you inappropriately again. If hopes and buts were candy and nuts, we would all have a merry Christmas.

Good luck Suzet currently with an underscore.

I also think you are missing the point of many of these posts. There are certainly a few who want to argue of the pluses and minuses from a purely technical perspective but there are also many (BP, BK, Pep, etc.) who are arguing this for you and are concerned about you. I don't think you are grasping that because you don't perceive any risk.

Bob -

I understand your POV and I understand what you’re trying to say. I also appreciate your care and concern about my H & I and our M. However, IMO there are indeed big differences between exposure and the examples you’ve listed here (to me it's ridiculous to compare those). It would be the same as asking Dr Harley that – since he advise against exposure to the OP’s spouse if the BS objects and doesn’t agree to it to it - if he will also advice the FWS to continue contact with the OP (or do swinging) if the BS suggest that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Your assumption that “I absolutely do NOT want to expose to OM W” is totally incorrect Bob. I DID want to expose to OM W after the resumption of the A few months ago (especially after some members on this board have talked some “sense” into my head – including you - and respectfully explained to me why this should be done) and I’ve laid out all the reasons to my H too. My H understood my reasons & arguments but still didn’t want expose because of personal reasons and concerns I’ve already laid out in other posts before.

The OM’s W not knowing has been weighing heavily on me and I was full of emotions & guilt especially after I was treated very disrespectfully & insulted (to say the least) by some members (not you!) and was disrespectfully pushed, bashed, pressurized and hammered on this board for not exposing to OM’s W while my H doesn’t agree to it… My feelings and emotions were so severe that I kept nagging on my H with this (to expose to OMW) in spite of his concerns about the possible consequences on our personal circumstances… My H started to feel that I didn’t respect his feelings and concerns…and felt that I was putting the feelings and opinions of people on this board (who pressured me to expose without my H’s agreement) above his…and because of this, we’ve experienced added conflict in our M for a while.

Piojito’s –

Thanks for your post and concern too.

I just want to make clear that I never expressed “undying” love for him. I expressed how I started to feel towards him in the past e.g. while we were still “friends” and in regular contact with each other. I said to him that I loved him at the time (not still love him).

Also, before the recent e-mail incidents I thought of our involvement as an inappropriate friendship AND beginning stages of EA since we haven’t yet expressed feelings of love towards each other; discussed our spouses/marriages and other intimate issues etc. However, with the recent e-mail exchanges and expressions of past feelings of love towards each other, the beginning stage EA indeed crossed boundaries into a full blown EA IMO.

This is not the case at all... Please check out my follow up e-mail to Dr Harley I’ve put on this thread earlier today. Also check out this post to BigK on this same issue.

Suzet,

I saw your follow up email which is why I decided to post. It just looks to me like you are trying to get a special dispensation. It will be interesting to see how the good Dr. responds. If he waffles, I'll burn his books. Not like he would care though - he already got paid the royalties.

Maybe you fell hard for the emails because you had been in denial. I posted that to you at the time. Maybe if you had understood that you had really been in an EA, you would have reacted differently. I don't know. Regardless, you are still at risk if what the good Dr. publishes is true. OM is still very much a part of your life and your M. Everyone agrees (including you) that in the hypothetical case that OM'w W were told, he would be less risk to your M. There is no disagreement there. Whether you should tell her or not is the only question up for apparent debate. Telling her helps protect your M. Keeping silent puts you at greater risk. You have decided not to tell her and remain at risk. You either believe that your M can survive another onslaught or you secretly desire another onslaught. Nobody can say which it is - even you. We are all very good at deceiving ourselves.

As a BS, I certainly cannot pretend to understand your H's POV. I find it a foreign concept. I am sure he has his reason for not wanting OMW to know what kind of man he is. I'm sure in his mind it is a good one.

I think you’re on spot with this. For this reason, I know I will react very differently should I ever receive deliberate contact from OM again. My H has also made it very clear to me that he will not tolerate another resumption again…and I will not allow another one again.

I’m not aware of any desire in myself “to have another onslaught”. The aftermath of those e-mails (the feelings of guilt, failure, watching my H’s pain & disappointment in me etc.) have been a very painful experience, so I can’t see why I would secretly want another “onslaught” which I’m not aware of… But I know what you say about deceiving ourselves so I understand your viewpoint.


I just posted to TogetherAlone on Mimi’s thread that the main reason my H doesn’t want us to expose is this:

We both know OM is the type of person who WILL make a court case against me and/or my H for an attempt to “break up his M” if we expose…especially since we have NO solid PROOF of an EA (I didn’t kept the e-mails except the doc I still have in Word which will not serve as solid proof since anyone can edit the contents of such document). And because of my H’s current unemployment and his Unfair Dismissal court case which is still ongoing, he’s not willing to take the risk of further financial stress etc. My H also fears the public humiliation and embarrassment such an incident might lead to for both of us. My H also feels the emotional stress of his unemployment, the upcoming court case & our infertility is enough to cope with at this stage and that we can’t risk/expose ourselves to further emotional stress.

Suzet,

Let's not forget you (re)started this debate. You have your explanation of things. Okay. It makes sense to you. Please just understand that all of us are concerned about your M, we know continued contact is a bad thing, continuing to work with OM and not exposing to OMW is a risky proposition. There is no need to try to build grass roots support for an otherwise bad plan. Not many are going to agree with you plan. Don't expect them to.

For those that don't know you, your arguments sound hollow. You've made your choice. Why did this come up again? Why did you feel compelled to post?

I posted to share the response of Dr Harley’s on my e-mail. A view members on this board was interested in his response too and asked me to post his response as soon as I receive one.

I rarely post, but this thread makes me so angry I must.

Suzet, when I spoke to (including a heartfelt apology) the spouse of the OM, it wasn't at Dr. Harley's prompting.

When I left my job (under duress and only after the divorce was in process) it wasn't because Dr. Harley told me so.

When I sent back, refused and deleted OM from all emails, IM's and even spoke to friends about never wanting to know ANYTHING about OM, it wasn't because Dr. Harley said it was the right thing to do.

When I avoided (and still avoid) anyplace where I even suspect OM could show up, it isn't because Dr. Harley wrote it in a book.

When I still, after almost seven years, am embarrassed, humiliated and horrified that I ever became the person I was during the affair, which caused harm to so many, it wasn't (and isn't) because Harley, family, friends or Jesus said it was the thing to do.

It is -- and was -- because of MY DECISION(S).

Just as the affair is a DECISION -- doing the right thing is a DECISION. It is a PERSONAL decision based on wanting, from this point forward, to DO THE RIGHT THING(S).

DO THE RIGHT THINGS, SUZET. From this day forward... without excuse.

For YOUR sake and YOUR H's sake... not because anyone (including me) told you so.

Suzet... extraordinary precautions to NEVER see him again. It means leave the country if you can't find work there. It means do something but stop with the lame excuses... your position may be valid (I am not doubting your situation)... but the solution is not to put up with a bad situation that could injure your M. The solution is to do everything... NO STONE LEFT UNTURNED... in your power to rectify this mess. Seeing your A partner after after several failures to maintain integrity is dangerous. There is nothing about your situation that makes it unique... it is a mess... like every other A. If you are not wanting to make it right... at the very least... please stop talking about it.

Here's one of the statements Dr. Harley used in his letter to Suzet that isn't getting much requoting:


Maybe I'm wrong....but I don't think Suzet is looking for "special" treatment. I think she IS/was looking for a definitive statement....from the doctor himself....about his policy/opinion on revealing to the OPS (instead of just members' opinions)....and sharing that info for others who are also interested in that answer. She was tenacious enough to get a clear statement from Dr. H. and I think that's pretty cool. Good for you Suzet!!

So many folks have interpreted Dr. H's stance on this in a much much more inflexible way than he does (we all bring our own bias to the table...including me).....and still do. And hey....that's way okay....but please don't put words into the good Doctor's mouth. If he wanted to say it was <uncaring> <indecent> or immoral....the man is blunt and direct enough to do so....he doesn't mince words. What he DID say was that it is "encouraged" but "not necessary" and that it's "optional". And he further added that if his spouse didn't want him to do it (no POJA) he "wouldn't do it". That's considerably different from the stance many members on MB espouse....and I think the difference is worth noting even if many of us don't agree. If he thought telling the other spouse was MORE important than the POJA with Suzet's spouse....he would have said so....and he didn't.

But maybe we can talk about "why" his answer was somewhat different? Why we think/believe that revealing/exposing is important is pretty easy....and all of the good arguments folks have raised about that are absolutely true/valid/preferable.

It DOES reduce risk of recontact!

It DOES give a OPS the information they need to rebuild the other marriage!

It DOES create more accountability.

It IS the hardest but kindest thing to do.

It IS about personal growth and accountability and yes...morality!

By most moral standards it IS the "right" thing to do.

Those things are irrefutably true.

But why does he say it isn't "necessary" and that it's "optional"? I suspect (but don't know) that it may be because Dr. Harley is focussed primarily on (his role as a marriage counselor) and the <marriage> and following the POJA (along with the other "necessary" rules like no contact)....and while the "morality" issue is really important (and encouraged), it's not his primary thrust as a marriage advocate. I also suspect it's because he considers <each individual marriage> and situation, rather than applying his techniques in an "absolute" way and "treats" each marriage individually (something harder to do on the board). He's a Christian, but as a marriage advocate, may be functioning mainly as a secular counselor in this case....rather than a religious one. I think he "recognizes" the decency of exposure (like most of us)....but is wearing his MC hat....and not speaking from a moral POV in this instance. (Although as an aside....I see "non-exposure advice" the MOST from religious counselors!) Anybody know what that's about?

Strictly in terms of the marriage (rather than morality or personal/individual growth), POJA is very important....perhaps equally important to the health of the marriage as exposure to the OPS. Sometimes, unfortunately.....the landscape is complex and a BS doesn't want to expose (like in Suzet and 2B's case). I agree with those who say "how convenient!" for the WS....but nonetheless....POJA remains an issue even if the result is self serving (for the WS)....not dismissable. I don't have to like it....and I don't, but occasionally the situation will arise where the BS DOESN'T want to expose and this is Harley's advice.

There is a fine line between deciding what is right for *ME*....and what is right for everyone else. Between what *I* would do...and what I demand everyone must do (or they suck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). Between what would create guilt and anxiety for me...and for everyone else. Between deciding what is good/moral/right for MY life...and what is right for everyone else's. What is good for my marriage....and what is good for ALL marriages. No one has to live my life but me. No one has to live Suzet's life but Suzet.


Americans have a bad reputation around the world because they are clueless about what it feels like to live in any other country besides here....where the opportunities seem endless and changing jobs is easy-peasy. It's easy for us to say (from the land of plenty) to "find another job Suzet!"....but we aren't a small minority living in a violent third world country where jobs are scarce and it isn't OUR children who will go unfed or our bills that will go unpaid. We're spoiled and entitled (and yeah that includes y'all Canucks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) The one thing I learned after living in so many different countries was that I wasn't "in Kansas anymore" and the things we take for granted....like job opportunities...are sadly lacking in other parts of the world.

Do I think Suzet is trying hard enough to end contact? NO...I don't. I want her to do more! I think despite the challenges in South Africa she MUST find a way some how to protect her marriage (apply apply apply for other jobs), don't give up, but I do know that it's a far bigger challenge than she'd face in the US and I'm compassionate about that because I have experienced life outside of the bounty of opportunity here. Do I think not telling the OPS creates greater risk for renewed contact? OH YES!..you betcha! "Necessary" or not (Harley rule or not!)....I SO hope she convinces her husband and takes that next step, but I want her to do that within the POJA, and I believe that her own personal growth needs that step. It's her job to convince her husband....and in some ways....<my job> (as a friend/member/mentor) to help her continue the effort to reach a POJA that protects EVERYONE (including the OPS)....and I think I can continue to do that without devaluing Suzet. It's a very very scary thought to imagine how "at risk" the OPS in this situation actually IS....when there are absolutely no consequences for the OM and his wife never knows. It would bother *me* greatly to know I have contributed to her pain, her risk, her lack of choice, her inability to change her situation, as well as her FUTURE risk. It would bother me greatly to know that her children are also at risk now and in the future. That drives me to counsel Suzet to continue her quest to come to an enthusiastic agreement with her spouse even though I know it will be complicated and difficult to do so (and whether or not it is "optional" or "necessary"). However, that is MY opinion.....and I won't assign that to Dr. Harley. I'll let Dr. H speak for Dr. H....and I will speak only for me.

*********************

bobpure....I noticed you used this argument:


If the POJA works for her husband's desires/needs/interests/preferences....than it would also work for Suzet....wouldn't it? If her husband suggested "swinging" Suzet would get a say-so too....just like *he* has a say-so on exposure in a marriage that is balanced. If he wants to swing....he'll have to get an enthusiastic agreement from her (which he won't)....and if she wants to expose to the OPS...she has to do the same. I think she CAN! I hope she can. For instance, if she managed to change jobs....and he gets past his court case....he might <THEN> be ready to do the rest of the work that needs to be done and face the risk she describes about the OM. Right now, while things are so fragile....he has misgivings. Perhaps that will change over time? I agree with your advice....but maybe I'm a little more flexible about the "timing" and I'm definitely not on board with counseling Suzet to just "ignore" his feelings and act independently and ALSO risk her marriage. That doesn't seem "right" either.

**********************


WOW...new beginning,

You mentioned that Suzet's post made you angry....and I think that was really evident from your response. But why did it make you so angry? What was so triggering? Are you a better person than Suzet because you exposed to OMS? Because you don't need "prompting" to do the "right" thing? My reponse to your post...great for you!...and "la ti ~FREAKING~ DA". What if I used that same logic on you? like: "I didn't need <prompting> from Dr. Harley NOT to have an affair. I didn't have to deal with any of this junk because I was committed to my marriage despite neglect, temptation and a cheating husband. I didn't need the good doctor, God (or even Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) to tell me an affair was wrong, cruel, immoral, indecent or selfish." How would that make you feel? I don't think that makes me a better person than you. (more stubborn and lucky perhaps) You eventually managed to make your life reflect your beliefs/morals....that's healthy, good...commendable! I say good for you NB! And I also say....keep on resisting Suzet! You've become balanced and grounded NB....and wow...that's fantastic! You know who you are and what you believe! Good for you! Hooray! Maybe your anger is coming from your own struggles and recognizing where she is in hers because you've BTDT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

*****************

To me....the most important thing to come out of this....is NOT what Dr. Harley said to Suzet (specifically for HER situation)..but that the <only authority> on Dr. Harley....is Dr. Harley. He said what he meant....the rest is speculation and assumption. Interpretations....are only that....he spoke plainly. All opinions HERE on MB....are strictly that....the opinions of individual <normal> folk here on MB. Weigh these opinions....from whatever source (including Harley)....with scepticism and discernment like all of us must do as we guide our own lives. Look for a spiritual compass and be the greatest person you can be because living an ethical life translates to a happy life.

S*f

You said :

if the POJA works for her husband's desires/needs/interests/preferences....than it would also work for Suzet


POJA requires ENTHUSIASTIC agrement from both spouses, right ?

Suzet says : I DID want to expose to OM W after the resumption of the A few months ago (especially after some members on this board have talked some “sense” into my head – including you - and respectfully explained to me why this should be done) and I’ve laid out all the reasons to my H too. My H understood my reasons & arguments but still didn’t want expose because of personal reasons and concerns I’ve already laid out in other posts before.

The OM’s W not knowing has been weighing heavily on me and I was full of emotions & guilt especially after I was treated very disrespectfully & insulted (to say the least) by some members (not you!) and was disrespectfully pushed, bashed, pressurized and hammered on this board for not exposing to OM’s W while my H doesn’t agree to it… My feelings and emotions were so severe that I kept nagging on my H with this (to expose to OMW) in spite of his concerns about the possible consequences on our personal circumstances… My H started to feel that I didn’t respect his feelings and concerns…and felt that I was putting the feelings and opinions of people on this board (who pressured me to expose without my H’s agreement) above his…and because of this, we’ve experienced added conflict in our M for a while.

So she is clearly NOT enthusiastic in ceding to her H's request not to expose to OMW.

This does not appear to be POJA, would you agree ?

Enthusiastic mutual agreement between Suzet and her H would be one thing, but I see submission and conflict. It is one of the reasons I feel so bad for Suzet and her H.

to just "ignore" his feelings and act independently and ALSO risk her marriage

Squid threatened very credibly and viciously to take my children from me forever if I exposed to OM GF. I did anyway because I thought it was RIGHT.

Squid has told me since it was one of the bravest and most decent things she ever witnessed in her life. And it CERTAINLY nailed NC down.

Turns out my decency is something Squid loves about me. She wouldn't respect me if I didn't do what I knew was right.

I wouldn't want my marriage beased on even an ENTHUSIASTIC mutual agreement of doing wrong things, or not doing right things. Would you ?

Starfish,



You sound pretty angry yourself, Star.


It's warped logic, becuase here's the differnce: I am speaking from the place of someone who HAS been where Suzet is -- YOU are NOT. So you'll forgive me if believe you do think you're somehow better than me.

I'll give you this, starfish. I've said before that shame works wonders in helping people to stop behaviors -- and look, you are attempting to shame me. Nice job. Reminds me why I don't post here very often.

By the way, I never said I was better than Suzet, nor did I say that I had it all together and had gotten over the effects of my affair, or having been cheated ON several times by my ex...

What makes me angry about this thread is seeing Suzet justify, justify, justify ... triggering, perhaps... but more likely it is the blatant disregard for the wife of the OM -- who is a VICTIM. She has a cancer in her marriage and doesn't even know enough to see a doctor.

Now THAT'S triggering.

Bravo, NB.
Awesome, amazing post.
Blessings to you

jeeeezzzzzzzzzzzz

I'm shocked by Starfish

now there's an unexpected switch! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Suzets husband was a VICTIM and his needs come before
the oms wife. What she shouldn't worry about, is what a bunch of people on a message board think of her, to let it hurt HER marriage.

Definitely!! Which is exactly why I think it's imperative to keep telling Suzet to keep trying. But in the absence of a POJA....you do nothing....you keep trying to brainstorm a way for both spouses to be enthusiastic. I don't know what it would take for her spouse to be enthusiastic about this....but I don't think HE sees the "right" and "wrong" surrounding this issue the same way you do. For instance....he may think it's wrong not to tell the OPS...but worse to put his family at risk in order to do it. He may think it's right to expose the OM, but better to concentrate on his own family.


me too. :sad:


I'm glad you did....and especially in really active affairs....you can't expect to get a POJA on exposure from a fogged spouse. But we're not talking about a fogged WS here. What is striking about this situation, and I think it could be one reason that Harley took the stance he did, is that Suzet's husband is the betrayed spouse....and this is his choice...not hers. She asked Harley if her husband's wishes in this regard should be disregarded....he said no. You obviously felt your family was threatened enough (and felt morally motivated enought) to warrant exposure.....I'm not sure that Suzet's husband (or Suzet) feel the same way in their situation. Considering the relapses....maybe they should.


I think so too....but again....I'm not Suzet and her husband isn't Squid.


Of course not. I didn't want my marriage to have to overcome an affair either though! Just like you.....I wanted a good, moral, strong incredible marriage....based on honesty and truth. After the infidelity tore us apart....it's been a process of rebuilding. There were times....and it probably seems like this to Suzet too....that everything seemed "wrong" and nothing seemed "right". What's the best choice out of these in Suzet's situation? : 1) Don't tell the OPS. 2) Tell the OPS no matter what or 3) Help your BS understand the importance of telling the OPS and make that step together.

NB,


Nah...you sound angry....I sound sassy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


I'm attempting to shame you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <wow> There's some convoluted logic. If I ask how would you feel if I posted to you the way you've posted to Suzet....I'm shaming you????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


I agree that justification is sometimes maddening. But there was more than one victim. Her husband was also the victim. What victim deserves her greatest attention and compassion? Sounds to me like Dr. Harley thinks her first priority needs to be her husband and her family. I think it's possible for her to make her husband her priority, keep plugging away at a POJA based on what's right and moral, and make amends to her other victim when she can do that with her husband's agreement.

NB...GREAT POSTS FROM YOU--BOTH OF THEM!!! Agree with you wholeheartedly!!! You be one of my personal faves around these parts!!!

Mrs. W