Yes, I agree with you that the ball is in his court. You have already made your decision - that you want to save the marriage, right? If so, then you should not lift a finger to move towards a divorce.

I wish I could say that I have made a decision to save my marriage, but I can't. My heart is too wounded by the way my WH has treated me over the past 10 months since I found out about his A.

He couldn't care less if I was dead or alive.

What I am committed to is finding out if my marriage can be saved. And the only way I feel I can do that is by getting some sort of help via counselling. A third party that can help us sort through the mess.

But my H will be mad when I tell him this is HIS choice to make. He wants me to make it and he's told me he wants me to end it. I haven't given him an answer for 10 months. I know feel that I would be ready for counselling if he chooses to end his relationship with her.

I hope I'm doing the right thing.

Well, in my mind, your commitment to finding out if your marriage can be saved IS a decision - and so you HAVE made a decision. You can tell him your decision, and then he has to make his OWN decision. Too bad if he's mad...and yes, I think you are doing the right thing!!! Be cool, confident and committed to your decision, regarless of his anger.

I really need some help.

I first want to apologise that this is going to be a huge long thread. I'm posting an msn conversation that my WH and I had a few days ago.

I replied to my WH's email and told him that he needed to make a decision about which relationship, of the two he is in, he was going to end.

I told him if he ended it with OW I would commit 100% to marriage counselling with him. I told him if he ended it with me I would find peace, somewhere, with that.

He texted me and asked me to get on MSN messenger. He said the following:

i wanted to see if there was any possibility of an honest answer from you in regards to your feelings. Despite asking several times i havent been able to get an answer on whether you want to be with me or what your thinking is about me as a person now, whether you love me, or want to be with me

I was like WHAT? This was news to me. He didn't care what my feelings were....and he certainly didn't EVER ask me over the last 11 months that we've been separated if I still loved him

I replied: I didn't realise you had asked me these questions
i thought it was more about the fact that you were telling me you didn't love me and didn't want to be with me. I don't recall you ever asking me if I still loved you. OK...i'll answer your questions...I do still love you,
I've never stopped, and can't imagine ever stopping.

I know in my heart that if you'd told me you still loved me and wanted to be in our marriage, I would have. But you didn't and were unable to tell me those things....and of course, I'm grateful you didn't at any time say something you didn't mean. Do I want to be with you? as much as i still love you, I wouldn't want to be in a love-less marriage...I couldn't live with someone that didn't love me or want to be with me. no matter how much i still loved them.

He then went on in a Passive Aggressive way (I'm only now learning about P/A behaviour...and am wondering if that's him) to pretty much say this was still my fault. We talked about love being a choice, rather than a feeling (he said 'I don't understand how love is anything other than another feeling'

he then said:
i genuinely dont believe we should have gotten married, because there is also besides everything else, something inside of me which makes me doubt my ability for commitment...still. i dont know why that is the case, but how do you control love. i dont feel i have any control over my feelings in that respect and i feel guilty for not being able to do something about it.

We then talked about meeting each others needs in marriage. I told him MB's EN's for men and women.

He said:
i cant agree.i agree we went wrong in a lot of areas, i just think that looking at needs and meeting needs is a conditional love relationship and and i dont believe its right. what i am saying is that if you have total acceptance of another person, which i believe you have to in a marriage, then your love is not conditional on having your needs and expectations met. I agree that your idea of love in marriage is based on someone meeting your needs
and i cant agree with that, and cant accept that that is the starting point

I said:
I totally agree that love should not be conditional on having your needs met. That's what I mean when I say that love is a choice. When you're not having your needs met (the needs are real and neccessary and a part of being human) you still choose to love that person. But when you're needs aren't being met (like a huge one of yours being Acceptance) then a relationship is open to being torn apart. Love is a choice, whatever the circumstances. But a healthy, happy and thriving relationship is based on both partners having their needs met. Then you've got the whole package...not just a couple that are together because they made vows one day in a marriage ceremony.

He said:
you can give someone sexual fulfilment, conversation, financial security, affection etc all those things you mentioned earlier.....you cant give acceptance, you HAVE acceptance for someone and you tell me you werent meeting my need for acceptance, which tells me you didnt have acceptance for me. I seriously struggle with that.


He ended the conversation by saying he was sure we would talk at some point again.

I'm not sure what I want to ask of you all. You're opinions I guess on where to go from here? Anything I should say, or how I should go about things in the next conversation we will have.

Just something else I should expand on....'Acceptance' was a HUGE thing for my WH. In reply to that I said

You told me I wasn't meeting your need of acceptance and I've accepted that to be true. How can I argue with that? How can I tell you you're wrong, if that's the way you felt. I'm not saying I didn't have acceptance for you. I'm saying 'if you felt I didn't, then that's because I was doing things that were confirming that I didn't'.

Accepting 'you' as a person and rejecting 'things about you' are two different things...just my feeling. I think you took alot of things as a personal non-acceptance of you that weren't meant to be personal. I think other things you are right that I was unaccepting. There's no way I can say 'hey you're wrong...I was such a wonderful spouse...totally accepting..yada yada yada'.

"love is a choice" is an oversimplification.
A more accurate statement would be, "to SHOW/GIVE love, is a choice".



I think you need to go back and fix what you said to him. becaues it wasnt "right", by MB guidelines.

Love is not "conditional" in the sense that you dont *choose* to love someone if they meet your needs.

Love is the *feeling* that you spontaneously get, if you choose to let someone meet your emotional needs, and they do so for you consistently.

(although from a scientific pure logic point, romantic love is "contiditional", in the sense that it arises, contigent upon the "condition" that your ENs are met. But your husband needs to hear the prior paragraph i wrote, I think)

Did you write him a plan B letter? If so, then he must meet the conditions of the plan B letter to accept him back. If not, he must agree to the conditions and boundaries that you decide that you need to continue in this marriage. This list would include, NC with the OW EVER, a NC letter, radical honesty, an open book policy, accounting for time, marriage counseling, filling out EN questionnaire, and working on meeting ENs. In return for meeting these conditions/boundaries, you will love him and be committed to your marriage 100%. If these conditions/boundaries are violated, you will go back to plan B. Let him know you want to be married to him, but let him know your boundaries. Keep us posted.

- Jim

Thanks Techie...'love is a choice' was more my (inaccurate) wording...and I'll fix that. What you said sounded much better and is more accurate.

JMWC, no I've never sent a Plan B letter. He is in my country, away from friends and family with no-one and we have a 2 year old baby who he collects every weekend. He threatened to kill my Dad, so we meet on neutral territory (he was coming to our house - I'm living with my parents) and I dont' know how to have no contact with him under these circumstances. Would you still suggest Plan B?

First of all, why do you want to get back with a person who has threatened the life of your parents? I don't know the rules in your country, but I would get my lawyer to slap a restraining order on him and take his kids away from him for good. Secondly, why are you living at home. You should not move out of your house (if it is in your country). He should have to find somewhere else to stay. After all, he is the one having an A. Finally, write him a plan B letter with your conditions (some of the pros here will help you with a good example of one), and get someone else help you to transfer the kids. Have NC with him whatsoever until he agrees to your Plan B letter conditions. You need to stand up for yourself. Many WS are so self-centered they think they can walk all over the BS, and they will if you let them. Many times all it takes is for the BS to stand up for themselves, set and enforce some boundaries, and the WS realizes that they can no longer have their cake and eat it too.

- Jim

Dump this [censored]. He is not worthy of your time or effort.

Thanks guys. It's a long and complicated story - but the short of it (as to why I'm not living at home) is that 'home' was in England for 4 years. 'Home' now is in Autralia...we immigrated back here in January...and my WH sent our daughter and I out 3 months ahead of him because he wanted to stay in his job longer (now I know why!). When he finally arrived out here, I found out about the affair on day 2 of his arrival. That night he went back to England, continued his relationship with the girl for about 4 months and then finally came out here and got himself an apartment and job to support his daughter. So, we've never lived in my country together...only his. And that's why I'm back with Mum and Dad.

With his threat...my Dad reported it at the local police station, and though it concerned me, I guess I took it as a bit of an angry, hot-headed but empty threat.

I just want to be able to tell my daughter one day, if we do end up divorced, that I did everything I could. In all honesty, I think my WH would laugh if I sent him a Plan B letter. I don't think he'd care less. In 11 months he's never asked how I am, never made ANY move to reconcile, never asked one question about his daughter... and his girlfriend is on the other side of the world!! His A devastated me, but I'm much more devasted by his lack of even the smallest bit of care over the last 11 months. I think I could get over the A. But the last 11 months? That's what I don't know about.

He is taking you for granted, disrespecting you, and walking all over you. Is this the type of person that would be a good father to your child, or would teach them how to have a bad relationship when they grow up. Your children learn how to have a relationship from their parents. You aren't doing them by any favors by staying in a bad relationship. You need to stand up and fight for a good, equal relationship. He needs to know that you will no longera tolerate being disrespected and walked all over. Until he learns this fact, he will continue to treat you the way he does. I would definitely recommend a strong plan B for you. If he doesn't respond and change his ways, it is for the best that you don't remain married to him.

- Jim

Help Please!

My WH and I have been in 'talks' recently. I told him, in a nutshell, that he was the one in two relationships...so it was his decision which one he was going to end. I told him if he decided to end his relationship with OW I would 100% commit to marriage counselling with him. I told him if he ended his relationship with me, I would find peace with that.

Well, it's been about 2 weeks and we had a 4 hour long discussion tonight. Went over old ground, but also both were able to express our feelings. I've not really had the chance to do that in the 12 months we've been separated.

Last week I told him I wanted an answer by 31st December as to which direction we were going down...hence why he wanted to talk tonight. He told me the same old stuff - he should never have married me and that he wasn't seeing this decision as a decision between me and OW but a decision about our relationship. I called the bull on him. I told him I wasn't accepting that - that the mistake he made was not in his decision to marry me, but in his decision since. I feel good about our talk because for once I wasn't the door mat I've been. I was strong enough to stand up for myself and not let him talk all his cr$p. He was speechless alot and for once didn't have an answer for everything.

Well, he doens't know I know this, but I have just found out (through some sneaking around) that his OW is arriving on Christmas Day! I dont know if she's here for a holiday or for good. (She lives on the other side of the world).

I'm horrified. I've been lucky so far in that she and WH haven't been able to be together since he's here in my country but now she's here in 7 days and he doens't know I know. I don't know what to do. Please help me. I know I've been so lucky not have to have face the reality of her being in his life...but now I have to.

Obviously she musn't know that he's still deciding which of us he wants. I want to thwart her plans. I dont' want her near my child.

Please help me through this. Thank You.

I would be sure to secure finances and support for you and your child.

Then I would continue on with my life, being pleasant, but detached. Let the OW come and try to fill his needs. I predict it will be a big disaster. She is giving up a lot for him, and is likely to be alone and disappointed, and love busting.

Thank you.

Luckily all finances have been sorted for 12 months now, since we separated. My child and I are living with my parents.

I hope it all falls apart. But I'm fearful that their relationship will be one of the 3% that last. He told me last night they have a love that is unimaginable. I told him it was just a fantasy.

I've been very lucky in having this 12 months with OW on the other side of the world - now I need to face what you all have faced long before me - the reality of her really here and in our lives. Maybe it is just time to file.

I don't see how you've been much luckier at all...the influence of this OW relationship has been affecting your marriage in a huge way the whole time it's been going on. It seems like you've been living separate lives and your WH has been in the "fog" just like so many other WHs. I'm so sorry about her coming, though, I know it does bring a certain reality to your situation that you haven't had before. Have you thought about Plan B?

I have thought about Plan B - but I think I've been in it for 12 months (except for our recent talks). The day we separated, just about all communication stopped except where it concerned our daughter's dropping off and picking up times.

If I went now to a real Plan B, I wouldn't have anyone to use as the middle person between us. WH would never make plans through my parents (whom I live with) - he only told me the other night how he could have killed my father and 'smashed his head on the concrete over and over again' and said he still feels the same rage toward him. This scares me.

I have been receiving more sickening emails from his Mom who wrote 'How about thinking God may be working mercifully and gracefully to let (daughter)have three people who love her'. She was talking about the fact that OW is coming. I'm just so sickened that his mother (who is an ex-pastor's wife by the way) could use God to justify this woman being in my child's life.

Am I the sick and twisted one here? Is there something I'm just not getting? Would God REALLY be working in this way??

No, you aren't the twisted one here. People use all kinds of deluded thinking to justify their children's behavior from "boys will be boys" to this nonsense.

I just can't even put into words right now how I feel about this. If this was my child doing this to someone, he'd get the biggest kick up the ar£e, not help justifying his actions.

I don't know that I can take much more. WH has lived in a different country to OW for 7 months now and we've been seperated for 12 (you have to be separated in this country for 12 months before you can divorce). He's never shown any real remorse, he's never taken a single step towards me. I don't know that I can keep going like this for another 12 months waiting for an affair to end which might never end.

Maybe it *is* time for you to move on...it doesn't seem like there's much hope if you've really been in such little contact with him for so long. Not to mention the fact that he's treating you with such terrible disrespect. How do you feel about the relationship he has with your daughter?