As ever the voice of dissonance.

RT...

I would love to see you recover your M.

I'm also not going to give you a sunshine enema.

If what you have posted is factual and not a despairing history rewrite then it sounds very much like your H has serious mental illness not related to his affair but the direct cause of it.

There is a poster here who is a recovering sex addict and serial cheater.

A very nice, and genuine person and I wish that poster the best, I really do. I hope they find lasting recovery...I realize that this is bigger than them...I realize that there is deep shame involved and it IS an illness beyond general waywardness.

I would have to be out of my mind to advise the spouse to remain in the marriage though.

I think this poster is a LOVELY person and a POOR investment at the same time BECAUSE it is a deeply rooted lifelong mental illness.

It is not a requirement that your H be a horrible person with no redeeming qualities for me to advise you to leave him [which..by the way..I'm not at this time].

If he is sick enough that he CAN not meet the minimum standard that YOU require to be satisfied with the marriage then you are at an impasse.

If you ever come to that realization after seeing the products of his counseling, church attendance, etc then I would just say..pull the trigger already, end your suffering.

Yet...how do you KNOW when you have come to that point?

WHEN is the time to make that decision?

I read in another series of posts from you where you seemed to be confused.

Am I supposed to be doing this? Or that? Which is the right thing?

My answer to that is to first know your self.

Find YOUR boundaries...find what is acceptable to YOU and how long are you willing to wait for it.

Once you know this the rest is just execution. This is harder than it seems. You have to be sure..and really mean it.

What if you decide that you need 110% effort...but you judge what you see to be only 100%.

Will you adjust what you will accept or will you leave?

What if you decide that you will wait 5 years to make the decision to allow for growth and after 5 years the changes that you decided needed to be made haven't been made?

Extend the time or leave?

The hardest part about leaving is the long list of what ifs.

What if he made ALL of the changes I would have needed...but 10 years AFTER my deadline?

Since no one has a looking glass that shows the future we have to make decisions ABOUT today...today...and only with the information available.

There is no right or wrong choice here...you aren't dealing in ethics or morals...you are dealing choices that affect YOU and YOU have to be the one who says yea or nay and then live with the outcome.

Define these things clearly for yourself...I suggest on paper even ...make a contract of sorts so that you don't have your boundaries being "scootched" as they have been historically...and it wouldn't be a bad idea to figure out how that happened too.

HOW was it ok for WS to be writing songs and love poems to another woman with your implicit consent [because you knew and tolerated it].

You felt uncomfortable with it...knew it was heading a bad direction...but caved. Why? Knowing this is a big part of trusting your judgement, perceptions, and decisions.

If you can't do this then you will not accept your decision whether it is to remain [should I have left?] or to leave [did I give up too soon?] and will likely find yourself locked in this limbo of indecision growing ever more resentfull.

.02

RLT:

Well, here we go:

Your WS did this:



Pretty lousy that he did that. He could have met the woman in the next cubicle, like I did. Doesn't matter, he was looking for something.

Do you know what it is?

My BS could have waited on me hand and foot all day. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't have had an A. Being waited on wasn't my main EN's. And the SF with BS throughout the M was quite good.

But, she was kicking the heck out of my ADMIRATION EN. And my FINANCIAL SECURITY EN.

I was kicking her DOMESTIC SUPPORT, CONVERSATION And AFFECTION EN's

So, which ones for you? and Him?

I think you threw away the questionaires taken about two months into recovery? Correct me if I am wrong.

Is it time to do it again?


And another thing don't ask your WH this:



As I said earlier, he will. But you can cover up that small place and make it smaller by filling it with you and your meeting his EN's. And by asking this question and similar ones always will put him on the defensive. (Sort of "Do I look fat in these pants?) He can't win. If he's honest, he gets in trouble. If he lies, you doubt him, and he's in trouble.

And you ask if six months is enough? I was involved for 4.5 years. It didn't take long for me to straighten up. But I had the benefit of this website to help me. Six months to straighten out 30 yrs of M issues could be to short of time. (and yes, you are sorting out M issues, not just dday) But, I will let you know, that the learning curve goes up. Meaning, that it does not seem like there was alot of improvement so far, but the progress in the next six months will be considerably faster.


PS, still do not know if what I am saying pleases mimi or not, seeing how she is doing well in recovery, then I can presume I am on the right track?

Noodle,

If you are passing out sunshine enema's please put me at the end of the line and I will let everyone else cut. LOL.

I am not asking her to stay or try.

I too believe that at some point you need to cut your losses.

To me the question I guess I am trying to ask is- If at some point your H did change, not saying he will or he won't, Will it mean anything or enough to make you want to stay with him.

Even with mental illness there is the possibility with treatment and maybe prescription drugs things can get better. How long who knows. It all depends on the person with the problem and if they want to admit it and seek treatment.

Only you can decide the timeline and what needs to be achieved in that timeline.

For me I am staying until after the holidays. Do I expect every change to be made no. I want progress and if I see the progress I am seeking I will extend the deadline. No progress then I leave. What progress am I looking for, no name calling and her not to interupt me when I talk. Very easy and achievable. Now I narrowed it down to that because those are at the root of many of our problems. The interupting part the most bothersome. Only because when we get into a disagreement she interupts and doesn't let me speak my side.

So if I can get that I will be happy knowing we can now start moving forward toward better communication. No sense in moving forward if we can't communicate. I think that if that can't be achieved to a satisfactory level I have a right to leave.

It is also necessary to determine if you are being fair and reasonable. Is it really possible for the fWW to achieve what I am looking for in that time frame. If based on our past and what I know about her the answer is no then there is no use giving her a deadline. I might as well just leave now.

If it has gotten to be too much for RTL then she should leave. I would never advocate staying just to stay. I would advocate staying if progress is possible. ON both sides.

NOw IMVHO what is causing the indecision is not having a clear plan.

RLT get a plan, a plan for progress alone or together. Once you have laid out the plan today you can check progress as you go. That plan should include the boundries Noodle spoke of.

Then you can make a decesion.

LG,

Would your opinion change if the issues were not marriage related?

Not arguing, just curiosity.

The reason that I ask is very simple.

People have affairs for reasons other than dissatisfaction in the marriage.

Alcoholism for example.

I believe it is very cruel to tell the spouse of an alcoholic that if they were only different or better in some way this all could have been prevented..or could change if they made those changes now.

Same thing with the spouse of a person with bipolar disorder who had an A during a manic period.

There is nothing that spouse can do to change the status of the wayward spouses illness.

They can accept that it is present and try to work around it.

They can decide that they are not willing to continue in a marriage with inherent risks beyond the norm and beyond their control and accept the loss of that marriage.

What they can NOT do is love their spouse into being a different person.

In fact in the presence of disorders and addictions Harley generally advises people to LEAVE the marriage until those issues have been resolved because the principles of meeting ENs can not satiate the addicted or mentally dysfunctional spouse and CAN consume and engulf the functioning spouse and result in emotional distress or even nervous breakdowns as they try fruitlessly to contain a flood with a paper cup.

oh my gosh, so many varying and thoughtful opinions. Thank you all. Unfortunately, it leaves me somewhat confused. Noodle, you have excellent points (do you this H is bipolar? I never thought of that one). LG, you are such a pragmatist. I know I should ask such stupid questions that only set him up. It's frustration, sheer frustration that comes pouring out of me in our inane conversations. Mimi, my hope is that he will change on his own, but like noodle says, I can't "love" him into being a different spouse.
Boundaries; like frognomore, I am going to waffle through the holidays and see what happens. I have told H that we can reevaluate in January. He doesn't like deadlines, but so what? I've been doing this dance, in one form or another, for 30 years now. I'm weary. Tired. Disgusted. I don't want a divorce. I love the guy, more than he knows. But, as I told him, I CAN'T keep doing this with him. What do I have to see by Jan? Continued commitment, active participation his recovery, and, I don't know, some intangible change, I suppose. I will know when the time comes. Honestly, I think that, even among Affair Land, I'm in the minority. So many issues, so many hurdles to jump over.

Well yes,

You really are.

You are one of those sad people who has pretty much single handedly kept a nonfunctioning marriage afloat until it just sank anyway.

The norm...honestly imo..is that one spouse just got bored.

What I MOSTLY see is descriptions of average...not spectacular..not horrible... marriages.

So they were living the staus quo in their average lives and then they meet someone new who they are attracted to.

It's fun, feels good, chemicals abound and they haven't got their weaknesses adequately protected...the rest is history.

What you have on the other hand is a spouse who has had one foot out the door perpetually...he doesn't seem to have EVER been wholly committed.

He has not only lusted but actually PINED over fantasy affair scenarios [until he found a way to make the dream real by seeking out a wh*res 'r' us website] for the entirety of your marriage and probably well before you ever met him. He is an adult man who has NEVER learned to be present and functional and invested in reality..he has lived his entire life vicariously.

You married Walter Mitty.

Do I think it's Bipolar? No...he doesn't present the classic symptoms. A psychiatrist would be more helpfull there obviously. It's something though...because not only is this behavior not HEALTHY...it also is not NORMAL.

Let me draw a word picture to explain this.

Lots of people over eat. Eating is fun, it feels good, and it's relatively easy to get a small *high* from it.

Not suprisingly a lot of people are a little bit overweight.

Some people though are morbidly obese.

The difference between those two sets of people is the LEVEL of dysfunction and the AMOUNT of their lives that it has consumed.

Your H is morbidly obese with fantasy...he is consumed by it. He prefers it to reality to such an extent..and for such a long time that I seriously question that he knows HOW to live in reality.

And that ... is MY dose of reality.

sorry if i missed something but what exactly might be your H ENs?

second, has he been diagnosed as having depression or some other sickness?

I would love to feel that no matter what happens to you, YOU have changed. Your view of life has been radically altered because of this A. You have become better.

I cannot analyze your H but i can understand you. Please try this perspective for a bit.......You are not just a good wife done everything and all around you agree, but you are a WOMAN that is becoming stronger in understanding and having compassion daily.You seek to understand this and will find strength in yourself,inGod ,in life.

Your H is sick.Lost.Hurting and whatever happens, you have done all you can out of love not frustration. So should you leave or boot him out, H will know that he was loved. and most important........you were meeting his ENs.

Just a thought.

I realize that i wasnt looking enough in the past from my WW perspective pre -A. I now understand that looking and trying to feel what she feels and understand what she is trying to say and validate it.

Not a right or wrong issue.

One of her ENs.

sorry if i dont make sense.

RT,

Do you believe that this is an accurate assumption I am working from?

Is there some area of correction?

Yes, noodle. Unfortunately, I think you are right on the money. Which leaves me to do some very serious soul-searching.

What do I do?

Rlt,

I am not going to waffle through the holidays. I have a concrete plan in place now.

I have set goals, goals that are achievable for the FWW as steps to make our M better for me. She has given me steps I need to take as well.

As a lighthouse she gave me one of the things I needed to do. I started doing it right away. She asked me if I wanted to know why I wanted that. I said if she would like to tell me fine. The fact she asked me to do it was enough. I said if you don't like it I won't do it. That is enough for me. The second thing she asked me to do which is to quit smoking right now. I am going too.

So here I am with a measurable goal. If she doesn't make significant progress then I can leave. Only I can determine significant progress.

I have a plan that is simple. Get more out of my M or Get out of my M.

I am willing to do my part. I cannot force her to do her part. I can help her if she would like but I am not going to do it alone.

Now what I have had to do is narrow down what I want significantly.

No name calling from her. Easy enough.
No interupting. This is the hard one. I know it sounds stupid and insignificant. But I realized that the interupting is a core issue that causes a lot of problems.

I feel like it isn't safe to express myself when I am hurt. Boom name calling and interupting. The interuptions serve as a way for her to squelch my voice.

So if I can stop her interupting it might create a safe envirnoment for me. She will either break this habit or I will have to leave.

BTW I am enforcing it at all times not just during big convo's. If I am talking she should listen and wait for me to finish.

Yesterday I almost felt bad. She appologized so much for inteurpting. I now just say after interuption. Is it ok to finsish my statement now.

So instead of so many hurdles pick the ones that cause the most problems and ask him to work on that.

I look forward to a day that even if I disagree with the FWW I can at least say it without getting angry because it takes me a half an hour to finish a statement because I get interupted.

nc,

yes, my husband is lost, SICK, hurting. I have tried to love him through it, despite it. But how much can one do? If, however, I married him through SICKNESS and health, do I stay? The thing is, he has made ME sick in all of this, too.

rlt,

No you do not have to stay through this.

If there is no hope in him changing there is no hope.

I think noodle hit it pretty well on the head but on the other hand there is something else.

You enabled this. IF he were to change through treatment, medication whatever would you want to stay. I keep asking this.

My FWW has lots of problems. She was an alcoholic which noodle pointed to so I am using that as an example.

I lived through many years of that and now she is sober. I of course want more progress from her but there is some progress.

I can now cut my losses and move on or I can wait to see if as things progress with her sobriety if things will get better in our M.

But the disease is in remission right now and it needs to stay that way. It was not possible to move forward while she was in it.

So if he is in whatever disease he has there isn't any hope.

He needs to admit there is a problem before it can be treated.

rl:

Do you want me to go away?

I will if you think that all I am offering is a SUNSHINE ENEMA?

or that I am way off course....

I still don't agree about your H...

SUNSHINE ENEMA OR NOT....

FNM, Yes, I would stay with him if he could work through this. And on the upside, he KNOWS he has this problem and is seeing a very good counselor for it. In a way, we are in the same boat, because mine has an addiction of sorts, too. I'm the same as you, sort of waiting to see how far they progress, and how fast.
btw, I'm glad you're not going to "waffle" through the holidays. I don't know about you, but for me this will be the first holiday since DDay. The A was going on Christmas last year ... so I just won't be into this year. Don't even think I will put up a tree ...

That wasn't directed at you Mimi, just a general expression.

There doesn't have to be group consensus and RT has expressed that she values your opinion several times in this thread...so I don't know why you feel excluded or unwanted but there's no haterade coming from my direction.

So RT...

If you don't mind sharing...what IS the condition..do they have a term for it..talked about prgnosis...anything like that?

Noodle:

You are arguing that RLT H may be mentally ill. He may be. And if he is, all my bets are off.

Someone with mental illness has behaviors that are not fog bound, as most WS's are, they are hardwired in a dysfuntional brain.

I do not proclaim that a A happened because the BS caused it. Never will. Affairs happen because people make a choice to do a stupid thing. (See my dunce cap!)

A spouse is not responsible for the spouse's alcoholism either. Alcoholic's will claim that it is, but it's in the same manner as fogspeak from an cheater.

But can a M have problems? That are not addressed and partners be unhappy? Yes.

I would like to buy a copy of HNHN of everyone getting married and staple it to thier foreheads. May avoid alot of problems later.

My BS & I had to review what had transpired in the first 15 years of our marriage to find out where we had gone wrong, and then proceeded to work on those things. We have been reasonably successful in this endeavor. We still have work to do.

I do not want this to become a debate. If Mr RLT is mentally ill, then I'm out of here, I can't help.

If Mr. RLT is fogged up and will not change, then RLT should travel away. She is changing and learning. She can find someone who appreciates it.

But RLT will have to change some of the behaviors she had previously. Because Mr. RLT wasn't happy with some of them. Just as RLT was dissatisfied with some of Mr. RLT behaviors. Two way street.

And her two posts pointed out to me something that could have been one of those dissatisfactions. IMHO

Mimi, NO!!! I DO NOT WANT YOU TO GO AWAY!!! I VALUE your input. I do. Please don't leave. I'm hoping and praying that you're right, that H can change. It's just that he is more complicated that mr. average affair man.

But please don't be insulted. I VALUE everyone here. I could not get through the days without you.

noofle, a name for it ... I wish. Then it would make this all so murky and complicated. If I had a name for it, I could skip right along, follow whatever rules apply. But it's such a weird thing, I think. Which makes me waffle back and forth ... Am I a garden variety BS? Or something more?

His counselor is a sex addiction counselor. But that's baffling, too. Did he look at porn? Occasionally. Watch dirty movies? Sometimes. He DID find his OW on a Yahoo romance website. I went on it and they talked kinda dirty to each other. He was also on adultfriendfinders ... a nasty website. He said he was in a room called Dirty 30, but they didn't talk dirty. Righhht ... But honestly, he even believe himself when he tells me this. It was just a bunch of friendly people, he says, and if they got to talking dirty, we kicked them out.

Anyway, sex addiction counselor. There are such things as love/romance addictions. Maybe we can label him with that?