Thanks MrsRob.

I wish there was another way. Confronting would be another option (and the option to use if your marriage is healthy/recovering which I thought it was). What I'm doing is decietful...

Just talked to her on the phone; we normally go out on Friday so I said "lets still go out and try to have some fun". Her reply: "I'll think about it".

Normal:

Discovery in May. You believe no contact since that time?

Maybe she is finally coming around. That's why she needs to be "perfect" and it is difficult.

Or, she has had a recontact, either indirectly or directly, but it wasn't enough. Can throw us WS off our track.

"Fake it till you make it" Has appicability here, But you are always hoping for more from the WS, indicating that there has been some success.

Do you feel that the EN questionaire that you prepared five month ago was correct? Could they have been done hastily? Sometimes, early in recovery we do the EN Questionaire and we answer in a way that looks good to our BS. But, it isn't what the EN's really are.

A little game:

List her EN's 1-5.

List what you did to meet them today. And this past week. And then think about how you want to meet them next week.

List what you used to do (before MAY) instead of these things. (You may have done some of them before, but go with it)

It may be the start of an interesting discussion. You may or may not have to show it to her, but you could work it in.

Careful about backsliding....

Sorry about the 2x4's earlier.

Some WS never really understand that they did anything wrong. Yes, I had an A, but I'm back, isn't that enough? NO!

No problem LG, thankyou for trying to help me, god knows I need it! I am 99% certain there has been no contact with the two EA partners. There was a *lot* of success at least in terms of my healing up until a couple of weeks ago. I do feel the EN questionaire was on the mark. We spent a lot of time talking about it and it was actually a very positive experience.

It feels like we are backsliding like crazy right now! I don't feel safe any more, my trust for her has evaporated, she is very withdrawn and seems to silently build resentment for any little thing she can. Even things that I tell her she doesn't have to do but she feels she needs to. (for example, she went to the store the other day, called me to let me know, and sounded annoyed about having to call, cha-ching, another resentment!)

Now, these things could be manipulation to get the privacy she needs to be wayward. During her internet EA, she did a really good job of making me feel *terrible* when I noticed she had another email account. She really killed me in that argument and then went on to use the account for another few months (and even got me to encourage her to use it!) until I stopped ignoring my gut and got a keylogger. *maybe* thats just happening again.

My behavior now is to meet any need I can whenever I can; she will let me talk to her so we have conversations but not really intimate ones. And I can do housework. I have managed to get in a few compliments too but there is no possibility for intimate/romantic needs being met. It is extremely upsetting that she can't even hug me.

For some reason she has given up on the idea of creating a great marriage with me (she has told me this). She says its a combination of a lot of little things. I asked her to make a list for me to work on but she said that wouldn't be fair! I'm treading water until the next counselling session hoping that the counsellor can give me something to go on.

Snooping yesterday caught nothing. I've got the computers and phone covered. If this is just early EA feelings between her and the neighbor; I can't think of a way to snoop that... I guess I'm hoping she talks about this with one of her friends on the phone but I doubt she will. OR, maybe she really has had it with me... She really seemed to learn from the counselling sessions and changed a lot of behaviors.

Normal,

Just hang in there for now. Look you are so far ahead of me it is crazy.

I think what you are seeing is someone teetering on whether or not she really believes that in the end the M will be much better.

IMVHO it seems like she is a lot like my FWW who believes the next shoe will drop. That it is inevitable that your M will end in a D.

For me the big change came the day I decided I didn't need this anymore. The day I was fine with a D too.

Now she understands I am not in this till death do us part if this M is going to kill me. LOL.

It may be time to consider trying something else if what you are doing isn't working.

Good luck.

Yup FNM, I've thought a lot about different "plans" but this is the best one I can come up with.

I'm assuming she is sincere that she is simply tired of trying and doesn't have hope. My plan is basically plan A:
- do my best to meet whatever needs I can
- do my best to be 100% positive and not LB (with my W, I can LB by *thinking* something; she sees it on my face; I swear she can read my mind)
- keep the pressure off (no R talk, absolutely no talk of D)

But, I have to watch my back here; there's been some "odd" behavior and some similarities to things she did when in past EAs so I'm trying to snoop. If I find something then we have a completely different situation. Unfortunately if she *is* sincere, *and* I get caught then its going to be a huge setback. This is why I'm waffling on the snooping. But thats the same way I felt about snooping when she *was* in EAs... #$@$#@$@ oh well.

I know what I'm doing is what any of us would advise someone else to do so thats the best I can come up with. Unless anyone has better ideas???

180 might work but I want to wait for advice fromt the counsellor first.

Norm,

"" #$@$#@$@ oh well.""

Dude, I totally feel your pain.

I think plan A for all your worth, but continue your snooping.

How could you get caught??

So don't get caught!!

k

Well, the answering machine had some hissing yesterday that freaked me out thinking it might be the recorder so I was really scared she was going to catch that... When I called her and talked I couldn't detect anything though so I think its safe. SCARED me though!

Check my new sig! :-)

FrogNM,

""Now she understands I am not in this till death do us part if this M is going to kill me. LOL.""

VERY AWESOME!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I believe this is a very profound statement, and says quite alot. And I'm not LOL, I'm serious.

The BS has to put his/her foot down at some point, whether it is calling their bluff or calling it quits.

kirk

Norm,

Instead of snooping ask for TRANSPARENCY, if she wants the M it is important.

If you snoop and get caught it is a setback. If you don't snoop and she is doing something is that a setback? How will you know.

Seems like she is drawing a line on something that shouldn't be an issue. She broke your trust. YOU would be stupid just giving it back because she demands it.

Transparency which is her responsiblity would solve this little dilema. If she isn't willing to give it they you have a reason to be suspicious(sp).

If you have nothing to hide you can be transparent. I am transparent with my FWW. Because I have nothing to hide.

Putting your foot down is the hardest thing to do when you have kids. They did nothing to deserve this. I'll have to try to be super-H for a while longer.

Well, she made it clear that the keylogger was part of the reason she can't feel comfortable at home and is giving up on the M. But she has been 100% trustworthy for many months now too.

MrsRob just posted this:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
M2L- let me give you an insight into the strange, twisted mind of a FWW.

We test the BH.

*He's never going to REALLY forgive me, I'll do what I can to push him away
*I dont want to deal with all the consequences of my actions, and seeing BH every day makes me think about what I've done
*He only made changes because I had to go to such extreme measures. Like they'll stick.
*Maybe his changes really will stick. Then I REALLY won't deserve him!
*What is wrong with me? How could I do this?
*When is the other shoe going to drop?
*Maybe he'll be fine for awhile, then he'll really realize what I've done and that I'm not worth it and then, when I think we're okay, he'll divorce me

It's not rational, M2L. You know that "Be a Lighthouse?" It's true.

Apparantly it's not easy being a lighthouse.

Your FWW is lucky to have you, she just is not admitting it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This could be whats going on... hmmm.

Hey you are preaching to the choir here. I have em too. They make this a very tough decesion to make. If I didn't have them she would have been gone a long time ago.

I sit there sometimes thinking to myself she has used the kids knowing how hard it is for me to split the family up.

So what are your boundries here?

Transparency is not a punishement. If you are willing to be that way so should she. If you are willing to fill in any detail of your day so should she.

Hey after my FWW had the A I had a co worker that was female. There was absolutely nothing between us. Not even my type at all. However we did pass leads back and forth. (Sales) She called me one day to ask about some thing I forget what but it was completely business. My FWW was calling through so I told the former co worker to hold on. Told the FWW hey let me call you back I am on the phone with the girl I used to work with. LOL. So when I called back my FWW was like "why were you on the phone with her" I was getting some leads. What did you talk about. The people I used to work with and what was going on and the leads we were swapping. How often do you talk. I think I talked to her about a month ago but I told you that. No you didn't. Um do you remember me telling you about the guy that came back there. Yes ok she is the one that told me and I said that to you. Oh you are right. Ok so do you have any other questions becasuse I can see you are concerned. NO.

Now if I had my FWW's attitude or yours could you imagine the blow up.

Do you hide things from your FWW? Do you need your privacy?

100% trustworthy for months does not mean she doesn't need to be transparent. IMVHO it is something she needs to do for life, as do you!!

Yeah I know how tough it has been for you too. AND, I know she is here because of the kids.

I don't need privacy. I don't need to hide things except for this. I'm struggling with the idea. Hmm, in my case the possible damage is probably more than the chance that something is going on...

Normal,

Why don't you need privacy?


What if the trust she is asking you for is unwarranted and because you give it something starts going on?

If the answer for you not needing privacy is because you don't have anything to hide then why does she need privacy.

Yup, I don't need privacy because I don't have anything to hide from her. Therefore, since she wants privacy again she may have something to hide.

Get this: just had lunch with W and our daughter. D is best friends with the boy next door and spends tons of time with him. The boy came up in conversation and W said something like "he's not home this afternoon" D said "his daddy is", W said "you can't play with is daddy", D says "yea MOMMY can play with his daddy". W says "Oh NO she can't!!!". Ok, could be innocent, or could be the fact that they're spending a lot of

sigh. I just want to ask her. FWS's out there, what do you think. Should I just bring this up and ask or snoop for concrete info? Based on past history I expect any suggestion to be met with indignation and a lot of aggression and not a lot of reassurances, positiveness, etc. Should I confront or figure out a way to snoop them? If I confront, how do I do it? I have no evidence.

I think she'll deny it and then use it as another example of how it will never work out with us. IMHO just the fact that either spouse wonders is enough to bring it up if we had a good marriage.

Normal,

Exactly she will deny it. Do you have any friends in the neighborhood that can help you. I know it sucks but what can you do.

My FWW's A was exposed with an innocent comment by my Son. Kids don't know exactly what they are saying but they know something ain't right.

Yes it could be another example as to why it won't work or it will let her know that there is a long road ahead of you guys.

Either way it is going to be hard.

Not sure what I'm going to do. I bet she's slowly falling for him and that's whats causing her emotional confusion (she is really stressed right now, even said she is losing hair!) If I can think of a way to talk to her about it that I feel has a chance of a positive outcome I'll do it; otherwise I'll just have to stick to the current plan until counselling.

Well Norm,

All I can say is keep your head up.

FWW and I had a convo the other day. I said no matter what, I know I haven't been the greatest but I have given everything I could.

I can walk away with my head held high.

Just keep doing what you are doing hoping to save your M and if it doesn't work you can walk away with your head held high too.

Your situation is on my mind often. Will I actually have to get to the brink of divorce to get across to her???

Well I better do some work. My job performance has been absolutely horrible lately.