Longhorn, thanks for your 2 cents. I really really appreciate your feedback.

I will be the first to admit....I am quite slow in the ACTION department....

...I seem to take AGES to think things through....please be patient with me...

I also know that when I do make up my mind....there's no turning back....which is why I think I AM SLOW in the first place....

You might not be too familiar with my thread....but WS plan is not going exactly as he had planned it....

In the past 2 yrs....inspite of WS's attempts at wanting to 'meet with me and discuss and do friendly co-parenting'.... I have not budged.....I chose to go PLAN B... (literally for my sanity).....and I have NEVER met with WS.....and conditions remained the same....«end A with OW and recommittment to family».... which WS has found quite frustrating.....

...me thinks HE had expectations....like me....

....but as you have pointed out....and as I promised myself.... at the 2-yr mark I was going to re-evaluate my position....to either stay in PLAN B....or move towards PLAN D....

...and thank you for being a part of the process...and please be at ease to let me know what your thoughts are.... it is exactly what I am asking you all to do....GIVE ME YOUR TAKE ON THE SITUATION.... and then...knowing me... I will consider it all...and like a cow....chew it and re-chew it.... and then DECIDE.... to remain STILL... or to make a MOVE....

....but thanks...thanks a million for taking the time to post to me.

Luna, I’m not assuming everything in WH’s fantasyland is rosy, but the mere fact that he hasn’t taken any steps to reconcile with YOU for the two years plus you’ve been in Plan B is clear evidence he’s comfortable enough in that fantasy that he won’t move off the fence rail without being forced to. It just isn’t going to happen. Lady, take all the time you need to mull things over, but be on your guard that you are not allowing your decision processes devolve into a procrastination so deep that you never make the decision. Your children deserve better than that.

My belief is that you should start with first principles.

1) You cannot change anyone else - only yourself.

2) Dr. Harley suggests two years and then walk.

3) Some things just can't be fixed.

At this point, the one not allowing your children an intact family is not WH - it is you. If you continue your current path, they will never know what a true family is. But it will be your choice.

Longhorn, I agree with you... and I believe my refusal to his last request is going to make the difference... even though I have a 'right' to refusal.... unless his perspective has changed...I believe it will be taken as my wanting to 'control' HIM.... and if his request was an Lbuster for me....my refusal was one for him, particularly when I know that even as an S, never mind as a WS, he had issues with anyone saying 'NO' to him.....I could be wrong...and I hope I am wrong.... but I believe WS is looking for 'excuses' to 'justify' to himself why he no longer wants to be part of this family... and I just gave him one to use as a 'final nail'.... but it doesn't really matter... what matters is that WS/S no longer wishes to invest himself in a R with me and be part of our family.... HE needs to have/find 'excuses'... for all sorts of reasons, to alleviate guilt, to blame others, etc.... it would be just a matter of time that he would find enough for him to justify his going 'off the fence' to the other side/or another side.... even the mere fact that for 2 yrs we have not been in any kind of R....and have gone our 'separate' ways...we are now basically strangers to one another.... and that should be enough to 'legalize' the whole thing and reflect what we have actually been living....

Hi GR,

Thanks for dropping by.



I am not sure what you mean, GR.

As I have mentioned above an 'intact family' for me is where the children and their two parents are living together and working things out 'together'....

Anything else...for me... is a 'variation' of sorts...and not the best...but the 'best under the circumstances'...

Even being on my own...I try hard to provide what I believe my boys need.... a home where they feel comfortable in...and are comfortable inviting friends to... which they do....where they receive a lot of affection and love...which I never stop showing them and telling them... trying to be an adult on whom they can 'count on' and can go to for support...as I believe they do think they can and do....

...so I am curious to know what you mean by a 'true family' and how I am obstacle to that....and how it is 'my choice'....

Luna,

Maybe what has happened is that his request has pushed YOU off the fence.

And now you are feeling that YOU need to move forward.

What has changed is that Lunamare is in control, not WS?

Lunamare is choosing the future? Maybe what you want to do is quit waiting on a WS to do whatever it is that he is going to do - quit waiting for him to decide, for him to make a move, for him to walk one way or the other.

At some point, Lunamare, it is better to CHOOSE

than to be CHOSEN.

I think that after two years, it is time for YOU to choose.


Do you really want your WS to choose YOUR future for you, knowing who he is right now? Put your money on this: he would choose selfishly.


And as far as an "intact" family goes: your children suffered that loss two years ago. The technicalities of the court procedures, the paperwork, mean something, but not as much to them as the true loss and devastation they went through back then. They are resilient because they have you to lean on, and have watched your growth and stamina through this. They will take your lead.

I think GR was saying that YOU are their INTACT family, Luna. Your children look to you for that.

Family is who we make up our minds for family to be. We love those who make themselves family - those who act like family, ARE family. Sometimes, we end up with the strangest gaggle of folks in our families, but what matters the most is that we love each other, and see each other through the best, the worst, and everything in between.


I'm with Longhorn. It is time for Lunamare's future to be her own.

SB

Hi SB,


That just may be so....I would have liked a 'clearer' answer....WS leaving and then getting some legal paperwork to finalize it all.... but then...2 yrs and no clear sign either way maybe as CLEAR an answer as I will ever get

.... WS may be just taking HIS time....building up enough resentment to be able to ACT....to get past the guilty feelings or blame others....get 'others' to do HIS work....

...but WS's expectation that I consent to OW moving in the apt. above his....I believe is a way of wanting to provoke me... getting me to do HIS work....

...bottom line....I am getting tired of dealing with a WS... and I am getting ready to let go....really let go...

...if he asks NOW for a D....it would be less painful.... the Lovebank is in the red....I would not fight it...it would actually be welcomed!

...and if not....I am in the process of getting there myself, anyway!



...Yes, SB, you can bet that any of his choices....would be what best suits....him...and him only!



Thank you, SB...I am not sure why...by this brought tears to my eyes.... I never thought of it that way... but it is true... my boys love and respect me a lot....

It was just the other day....after D16 FINALLY got his scooter, that he wished for at the beginning of the summer but only reached it at the end of it! ....in which I was quite a bit involved in with supporting him....in all sorts of ways...and it was enough for me to see him soooo happy....at one point he put the icing on the cake by telling me.... 'you know, Mom, I don't tell you this very often...but I love you so very much'.....

Thank you all so very much....

I am quite emotional right now....

...and I am glad I chose to go to PLAN B....it is what helped me prepare to get to this point.... to be ready to accept WHAT IS and reallllly let go.... even though this is very very painful....

You are not doing his work if you are granted full custody and get a killing in spousal and child support deducted from him paycheck. Take him for everything you can and make this as painful on him as possible. This is your last attempt to shake him off the fence, so you want to stir him up good. Tell your lawyer you want to take him to the cleaners and get everything you can. Stay in plan B and let him suffer the consequences of his choices alone. Who cares if he builds up resentment? That resentment is misplaced. If he doesn't realize this is all his fault, you wouldn't have a chance at reconciliation anyway.

You already have the intact family you seek.

Sometimes, that which we seek is right before us.


Luna,

Choose for yourself your own future. You want so many things, and those things are out there. You need only make them happen.

This world happens by our choices. I recently read something that made me truly understand happiness, and how it IS a choice. I will try to summarize:

You know how some days you wake up in the morning, and you just feel happy? There's not really a reason, you just feel good? That tells you that happiness exists, outside of external forces, events, other people, money, health, body image, and everything else. You can just wake up in a really good mood for absolutely no reason at all. You are just - simply - happy.

That means that you can choose that feeling.

Choose happiness. Over melancholy, pain, sadness, neutrality. You can find that in your mind, and choose to "sit" there in that happiness spot, and draw upon it. Instead of waking up "for no reason" happy, find it and be happy because you CHOOSE it.

I am learning this. I start by smiling, closing my eyes, and thinking of things that are beautiful, happy, freeing, relaxing, and desirable to me.

It gets easier each time I choose. And I am finding that when I do this, I get better at choosing happiness, and also better at choosing things that are RIGHT for ME and my loved ones as a result.

This hasn't been easy. After what we BS go through, well, you know how hard it is to come full circle and begin to be able to make choices again, let alone to believe in happiness. But these things exist, and are possible. You do have a future, full of those choices for yourself, your boys, and with someone else as your new husband.

And because you understand the MB principles, your next marriage has so much more possibility!

Think of the future. Time to start making it happen, by YOUR choice.

Hi Jim,



Hi Jim,

My boys are 11 and 16....over the past two years we alternate one week each.... I do want them to have a R with their dad.... I know he cares about them...(obviously, not enough to invest in their family...particularly as a WS)....but nonetheless... he cares about them very much... were D16 going on 17 to ask me to stay at home and only visit his dad...I am ready to that, too.... and D11 is only a matter of time... he will have the key to the house... and like his brother is doing right now....will be able to come 'home' whenever.... afterschool....weekends...even it 'officially' he may be staying at his dad's....


....our salaries are about even....we would need to split the assets... and I don't want more and not less than what is legally mine....

....and...bottom line....I don't want him to come 'home'... for no other reason than his choosing to.....

...no one can force anybody to do anything they don't want to do.... I learned that a long time ago...

...I am in PLAN B to protect me from a WS....and I was hoping for some of the fog to lift....but it may not 'lift' soon enough to save our family....

Not sticking it to him in a D is only enabling him, IMO.

Hi SB,



...true.



Actually, SB...in my last 2 years in PLAN B I have been just doing that....I love my work...and those with whom I work...in the last few years I have travelled a lot...which I had never expected to do but which I really enjoy very very much.. I am surrounded by friends that I care about very much and they care about me...

...basically....PLAN B HAS been the period where I have been preparing myself to be on my own and ready to move on... with or WITHOUT S....and know that I will be OK....even though I will find it somewhat painful... because it was not what I wanted... but know very well that what I did want did not solely depend on me..and so partly out of my control.... and I am OK with that...even though I know I will have to allow my feelings of pain and sadness to have their 'say'....so that in the future...I am more careful with some of my choices...



...I guess I must have been doing some of this during my PLAN B... because I can honestly say that the depth of pain and sadness I feel now is not as deep as after D-day.....

Thanks, SB, for taking the time to post to me. I really appreciate it....I think you must have 'picked up' on the fact that...although somewhat subtle and sudden and not very dramatic... it may just be a 'turning point'....

Hi Jim,


I guess on this one we will have to agree to disagree... because for me to do it any other way....other than consent to what is 'legally' mine....I would consider THAT to be more on the side of 'revenge', 'manipulation' and 'control', and I am just not into that.... and of course, I do know that it is a question of 'perspective'... I know many here see it differently... and maybe if it were to put me in a financial bind I probably would go there... but I will be OK with what I earn, and whatever turns out to be my part of the assets....

...the greater damage has already been done....

Luna,

It's called making the WS suffer the consequences of their affair. It's not seeking revenge, it is giving the WS the kick in the @ss to pick one side of the fence or the other. It's tough love. Why would your WS commit to the M? He's suffered minimal consequences for his actions. The kids are still a part of his life when he wants them around. You are like a free babysitter so he can fool around with OW in the off-weak. He hasn't been hurt financially. I for one, wouldn't want your WS to be apart of the boys lives because he is a horrible example. Sure they need their father in their lives, but they don't get their father, they get WS. I believe that you have some conflict avoidance issues, and these may be passed on to your children. What happened to standing up for yourself? Why do you care if your WS sees you as vengeful? Who cares what WS thinks. You make him face consequences to teach him and your children a valuable lesson. Where is the righteous indignation?

Hi Jim,



Thank you for the feedback.... I will think about it... you must know by now that we cannot 'teach' a WS anything.... and as far as my children go.... I am 'showing' them how to pick oneself up and move on when hit....and the case of an A.... hit hard! ....I may not be divorced...but I am in PLAN B.....and the boys know exactly why I am choosing NOT to see or speak with their father..... and hope through my example to show that abuse does NOT have to be tolerated... because, in the case of an A, I consider it, if not physical violence, it most definitely is mental violence...and the relationship becomes toxic, and that one should remove oneself from being in that kind of relationship, unless and until the perpetrator considers his behaviour change-worthy HIMSELF....

I don't want the boys in the middle....or be used as pawns... not to mention the fact that even WS have parental rights....and I do want them to benefit as much as they can from both parents, separately if it has to be.... and deserve whatever attention their father offers them....which I know for a fact that he does, inspite of being a WS.....I cannot totally protect them from their father's actions... but I trust and hope that one day they will be faced with choices....and will choose NOT to follow in their father's steps...

..and what WS thinks of my actions is not as important as what I THINK of my actions...

Rather than get lost in the 'details' of the terms of a D.... I am still at the stage of deciding whether to continue in PLAN B, or NOT.....and what I should/need to consider.... and would really like some feedback on that overall issue first....

Jim... you have made your point quite clear, believe me....I hear you.

Luna,

You and ccbis are in a neck-and-neck race for the long-suffering title. My heart goes out to you both.

What I have seen in your thread for some time is simply reaction. It is time to act rather than react. WH is still pushing your buttons. He is still controlling your life because you choose to let him.

I've not had chance to read about your recent developments in detail.

If I am right that you've been in PLAN B for TWO YEARS, it seems appropriate to come out of the darkness and TALK with him.

Seems like that I have read that Dr. Harley recommended this to someone..maybe CC...before moving towards D...

I can't personally relate to your situation NOW..

I'm only surmising that I would want to TALK with my WH to REALLY get a sense of where he is coming from rather than MAKING ASSUMPTIONS about him...

I would think that the affair has lost much of its SIZZLE...

Hi GR,



Well... I can't actually see myself as being 'long-suffering'...and I don't think I want to be in that race....LOL...

WS is not part of my DAILY life... but, yes, his attempts have always been aimed at pushing my buttons...

I would be curious to know HOW you think he's currently controlling my life.... and I am sorry if the question sounds a bit naive...like I SHOULD know....DUH....I really would appreciate it if you could clarify it...

Hi Mimi,

Thanks for dropping by...


If you could I would really appreciate it....you need only to review the last few pages of my thread...(Edit:Starting from post: #3302623 -
09/09/07 10:15 AM)


...even if he has made it clear that he chooses NOT to meet the PLAN B conditions? ... he is choosing to invest in a R with OW rather than with me.... isn't that clear enough?



...Do you remember on what grounds he suggested that? ...in principle WS's position has not changed in two yrs.... WS has only gotten more frustrated because I am choosing NOT to meet with him under the current circumstances....



...again...Mimi....if his position hasn't changed... he wants to invest in R with OW...given his current choices....and is only interested in 'friendly co-parenting' with me....which is not acceptable to me.... what assumptions do you think need to be verified? ...WS may SAY a lot of things...but bottom line...don't I consider ONLY what he DOES?



Well...they haven't been living together....and based on what WS has told me (for what it's worth)...that is part of the plan....to attempt to maintain the SIZZLE in THAT R.....the solution to maintaining THAT R 'sizzling'....is to try to remove the 'daily' routine....by not living together...but it would rather be more convenient, I guess, were OW be living 'upstairs' from him....so the plan now is to do that.... WS now wants her to move into the apt. above his....unfortunately....we co-own it....and I have refused to consent to it.... enabling him to point 'fingers' at me...

..and frankly, Mimi, this last 'coup' has really hit a nerve....I am getting tired.... if after two years WS has not given me a 'clear' sign that he is interested.... I do think I should now literally 'move on'.....and go to PLAN D.... which at this point....may actually be WS's next step anyway.... proof to OW that he won't let a BS stand in the way to their happiness....

...and I agree with Longhorn... it may not be THAT good in fantasyland after two years....but obviously not enough for WS to want to reconsider re-investing in R with me and family....THAT seems to be clear...

Is he waiting for me to make the move to D? maybe....

Is he waiting...for I don't know what....enough for him to now make the move to D?... maybe...because at this point...he has 'cornered himself'..... the only way to 'get his way'.... is to settle our financial assets.... and if split down the middle...more or less... I would then own where I live... and he will own where he lives... and that way....BS can no longer be an obstacle to their plan to be 'neighbours'.... he now has no choice...if he wants to keep OW in his life....he needs to go 'legally' to prove himself....see OW has definitively left her 27-yr M for WS, has settled the assets, and has divorced her BS....by doing so...proving that she is prepared to do ANYTHING for him... and that makes WS feel really really special....I guess she is now expecting him to do the same...or he is offering to do the same! ....regardless of HOW it's happening....the bottom line for me...is the same....

...and I AM getting tired....and I will not resist, were I to be served D papers.... if I don't do it myself first....because WS SEEMS to have gone the direction of wanting to give me the role of 'the obstacle' to fight... for their love....because as 'my friends' keep telling me....WS should have known I would not 'buy' into a R where triangles would be tolerated.....and so now he seems to want to engage me in a 'powerstruggle'.... and I don't want to 'powerstruggle'.... I am ready to let him have what he wants....and really remove myself...by going/accepting the legal route....

Luna:

Your WH wants to Rent the Apt upstairs so that he and OW CAN live together.

She's right upstairs!

She will not spend a minute in that apartment.

And she will not pay a dime in rent.

Contact your Attorney and get your ducks in a row.

Then call your WH up and invite him to dinner.

And ask him what he wants. Since his choices are to deplete your assets, or at least ALWAYS make you the bad person.

And BTW, WH may WANT you to say NO about the upstairs apartment.

Takes him off the hook, in that case.

Then Plan D him.

And YOU FILE. Stop waiting for someone who likes the fence.

And the kid sharing and other things like that right now? That's in the past.

That was agreed between you and WH in the past.

The new plan is Luna's plan.

And that means, One night a week, and every other weekend with the boys.

Child Support, Spousal support, and seperation of assets.

Retention of funds in a seperate account to fund the boys college education.

Time to start forcing choices Luna. Yours. Not your Fence-sitting WH.

You may not get any of the above. But so what.

The wake up call of all this may make him start to realize what his choices are costing him. And he may decide to come home.

Are you ready to allow him in?

Should you allow him in?

Luna's Choices. Not WH's.

Your comfortable. Time for YOU to get a little uncomfortable.

But after that, you will be more comfortable. Because your choices will make you stronger.

JMVHO.

LG