We have made a lot of progress, but I still struggle greatly with this one.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />If you have a spouse who is constantly invited to and/or expected to be at these things, how do the rest of you handle it? Are spouses ever invited? If they are, do you go?

Talk to me - there must be a lot of here in the same boat -
Mulan

Mulan,
My husband travels extensively for his job. For eight months last year, he went to San Francisco nearly every week. If he wanted another affair, he had plenty of opportunity.

I think that the key issue you are dealing with is not the circumstances of your husband's job. It's your husband's viewing your concerns as legitimate and your husband's wanting to address those concerns to your satisfaction.

The POJA is a bad idea when you are married to a person who doesn't believe in the POJA. It's an opening for the spouse to claim that you are paranoid or controlling.

What I am doing is telling my husband how I feel. If he dismisses your feelings, then -- guess what -- it doesn't really matter if he is fooling around when he is out at business functions. What really matters is that he doesn't care how you feel.

I think we've played the game of trying to match extremes of emotions. Now I tell him if something bothers me. That is mild. He can't claim I'm controlling, since I'm not telling him what to do. He can't claim I'm paranoid, since the expression of my emotion is mild. It's up to him.

Ultimately, it's up to him. Put the ball in his court and see what he does. He wants the ball to be in your court, with you trying to control him or escalating in emotion, because then he can claim that you are just crazy and dismiss your feelings. If you provide him no opportunity to dismiss you as crazy, then what's he going to do?

Respectful

Mulan

Firstly , yes , an amount of client schmoozing is required at certain levels of business. No, spouses are not usually invited ,particularly to "events" bacuse such can constitute a "benefit in kind" and incur tax for the employer and the employee. Also, som eof these business dinners ar epretty intense work, and any spouses would be pretty much ignored. It swork, it just looks like fun most of the time.

You have previously described the entitlement "boy's" culture of a multinational company well, and i sympathise.

Its a sort of "James Bond" life of exotic cities, five star hotels and appreciation of our talents. Such is very alluring when we are far less capable as husbands and fathers than we are "James Bonds" at home.

It took my self-reassessment upon discovering Squid's affair before I realised that I was allowing this culture to fill my emotional needs in a similar way that I imagine an affair does.

I have ENs of appreciation and affection. Work provided that in SPADES, I am good at my job and I have turned around some important sh1tty situations.

To be met with smiles and needful handshakes at excitingly exotic airports *IS* affirming.

Then I'd go home, catch it in the neck about how I hadn't refitted the skirting boards in the dining room, and how I didn't do enough chores around the house etc.

I'm not saying that is your situation Mulan, thats just how it was for ME.

But I realised that I was chickening out - it was far harder to be a great husband and father than a great executive. That was just a game I was good at, husbandry was REALITY and I did OK considering my best efforts were elsewhere but it was hard work.

In truth this reads harshly on me - Squid had withdrawn from me into an EA for almost a year before I discovered PA and I sought comfort from work instead of home.

My colleagues at work all buy into that James Bond culture, and many of them think its also OK to have sex while travelling on business. "what happens on the road stays on the road".
Nowadays I POJA my work trips with Squid and in truth my home life is now the main source of my ENs and peace. My home is a sanctuary to return to now like it hasn't been for ten years. Wow its strange to write that.

Squid and I txt and call back and forth every day when I am away and I call home every day to speak to the kids. That started as a duty but has become a highlight of my day as we got past the " have you had a nice day?" clumsy phase of discussion.

My kids always know where I'm going and I try to send them cameraphone pictures of interesting stuff.

Squid genuinely misses me when I am away, and I miss her too. My agenda is now totally transparent when I travel, as is Squid's.

Now this really seems to be working, but its taken a good bit of effort to acheve.

I still get to "James Bond" but I no longer seperate my work life from my home life : Squid feels more included and we both feel less threatened.

I also make sure that I work from home some days per week and when I DO, Squid and I have a lovely long lunch which we both look forward to.

What I have learned is that balance is better than seperation. I now see work as "WORK" not "LIFE". I took a voluntary demotion to facilitate me spending more time at home and this has been a fantastic risk for us that paid off.

I didn't lose much salary and I have more freedom to do a good job now as a consultant than I ever did as VP.

This has been HARD and deliberate Mulan, but I wish your H could see that his life will likely IMPROVE by binding work and family together, biasing towards the family. That's not "goody goody" talk from me, its my truth borne of hard work.

Oh, and I try to take Squid and / or the family to the coolest places I go to be "james Bond" now ! Our anniversary was in Madrid which was a favourite corporate venue for me in the past. Squid loved it.

Not sure if this ramble helps, Mulan, and it certainly isn;t a criticism of you or your H's home life. I just wanted to tell you that I really do understand the issue, and that with effort a real balance can be achieved.

Some of the entertaning can be done over the fone, for sure, but at the level of seniority your H is at - face tofaces are an integral part IME.

Bob, you've absolutely hit the nail on the head. H's job is more than capable of filling ALL of his emotional needs in spades. It always has been and he hates anything that interferes with that.

And James Bond? Oh, gods, yes. Right now he's in Beijing - trip #13 for him to China - for the Launch Ceremony of getting their credit cards to work over there. And yup, they greeted him right at the foot of the airplane stairs like the arriving dignitary that he was.

The CEO of the company was there, along with the rest of the bigshots, and they held the ceremony yesterday at a very fancy restaurant with members of the Chinese Opera present to entertain them. Members of several press corps were there and it will be in the Wall Street Journal, among other things. It might even make TV.

This has all become just another day at the office for him.

I asked him if any spouses would have been allowed at the restaurant to be present for the ceremony. (horrified) "NO. The restaurant wasn't big enough."

(Oh - I guess I thought they had a few big restaurants in China, but clearly I was wrong about that.)

Whenever he came home, he never got nagging about what needed to be done around the house. It was always, "Why can't you people share your rewards and celebrations and successes with your spouses instead of *only* with each other?"

And the answere is always yeah, yeah, well *cough* we're doing BIZNESS and we can't do BIZNESS with spouses present.

*cough* bullsh*t *cough*

When he has members of the Chinese Opera singing in front of his desk while he's REALLY working, then I'll believe that it was All Bizness.

Like virtually all his other off-site activities - everything from taking his favorite office bimboes out for private lunches to awards banquets held at night in hotel ballrooms - this was 10% business and 90% perk. It was a reward. A celebration. It was ONLY for them. No spouses were invited, even though the big shots can and do sometimes take their wives along on the China trips.

I HATE being told that "well, we're talking about work, so that makes it a BUSINESS OCCASION." Sorry. He used to tell me the same lame excuse when I finally caught him taking bimbo after bimbo out for private lunches and taking them on his trips when I didn't know they were there.

I worked for this same company for over eight years. I know what work is and I know what a social event is. And nothing makes my blood boil more than combining the two and expecting a spouse to swallow the garbage that "well, we're talking about work so that makes it a work event and that's why you can't be here".

You're absolutely right. His job is more than capable of meeting every EN he has and I do mean all of them. I've said before that he should have his company name engraved on his wedding ring (which he no longer wears) because that's his real true love.

I can't compete with any of this. I just can't. He really is James Bond now. I cannot be 20 different bimboes for him and 20 different exotic women all eating out of hand and fawning over him every time he goes to "work", whether "work" is at his home office or in Chicago or China or Hawaii or anywhere else. And I can do nothing about their behaviour or his.

Did I mention that he gets back from China tomorrow and leaves for resort in Hawaii Sunday night for a conference with a Japanese credit company?

Did I mention that?

Mulan.

I suspect you know that you and your H have to choose whats important to you both.

I had to choose and I chose a voluntary demotioninitially to workon recovery, but I made it permanent because I learned I actaully AM a pretty good dad and husband. My kids are pretty fun to be aroun d alot of the time.

For example - I open " Bob's diner" every morning I am home where I make kids school lunches and everyones breakfasts whiel Squid gets her morning head together and gets the kids in their uniforms. She is DESPERATELY grateful for this. And you know ? I don;t mind !

I write stupid messages on their lunch bags and cook them scrambled eggs an dstuff for breakfast. I know my son likes tea with 2 sugars, coolenough to drink through a straw. Katie likes cereal first, with toast and juice after she has dressed.

i KNOW all that. I am prouder of that than I am the $7m deal I scrambled to close today.

I would have your H know that joy too. Pride in something IMPORTANT. "dad, those tuna mayo salad sandwiches cut like sharks were nice, thanks". Not just money.

How can you give him a compelling reason to reconsider his priorities ?

Mulan

Your H surely knows this destablises you. Is is a p/a tactic ?

A subject that is near and dear to my heart. My WH is ALWAYS invited to social functions. For a long time he would include me and we would go together. When he became wayward he stopped inviting me.

I used to get very upset. I do think it is very disrespectful especially when other men DO bring their wives to these functions. If the functions my WH goes to were stricly for men and it was only work, then I would be ok with it. But the functions my WH goes to there are men with their wives and also single women. There in lies the problem.

I think one mistake i made was not telling my WH that his actions upset me. I would just let him go. I did not ask to go and did not ask any questions. I am sure that is the CA in me, but I do think it was a mistake.

I feel like if my WH really respected me and our marriage then he would invite me to his work functions and work trips. He does not.

Recently my WH said he wanted a divorce. However, he will not move out of our house. I have asked him to leave, told him to leave, and yet he comes home every night. I don't know what is up with that and I have stopped trying to figure it out.

I just today read your post on PA and how you started changing your behaviour and attitude towards your WH. I have decided to implement some of that. I have just recently gotten a part time job and am moving in a forward direction with my life. I plan to do some 180 things so that I can maintain my sanity.

I hate that men feel like their job and social life is more important than their family. And that they expect their wives to just deal with it all in the name of business.

Mu,

I feel for you, you know. I have a similar problem with FWW's career. She travels all over the world on an unlimited expense account. Major perks, fancy accommodations, fawning sycophants. And much of the VLTA was conducted while on "business" trips to exotic locations.

For a long while I resented (read: was intimidated by) all these perks. Even before I knew about the VLTA. But I had to separate my resentment into two parts after DDay. The A and her career. If she had not had the A with her coworker I would have eventually adjusted to the career being her main focus in life. The concurrent VLTA definitely muddied the waters for me.

So, in your case one thing I am not clear on is, has your H actually had an A? Is your resentment A related at all? Is it that he meets none of your ENs? Your resentment is palpable. But I can't seem to put my finger on the root cause.

Oh, and a more sensitive question. I wonder if your H was raised in a culture where men can do anything they want. King of the family sort of thing. Wife is supposed to stay home and bask in his glow. Totally foreign love language to me, but maybe it's the language your H actually speaks/hears best?

With prayers,

As Dr. Harley says... spending nights away from your loved ones... overnights is a recipe for disaster. Too many indescretions occur when away on business trips. I will NEVER date a woman that travels more than 1 week out of the year. There are better ways to spend your time than traveling around the world to make some extra money for your company.
When I worked for Pfizer... I can't begin to tell you how many people would screw around on their spouses while away on "business" trips. This is not for me any longer.

Damfino. When we are together, things are good. Sometimes things are great. The more time we spend together, the better things are.

But no matter how good things are or how solid the relationship feels, it all evaporates like a puff of smoke the minute there is anything at work remotely resembling a social occasion. If it's a trip, forget it double. My H likes me well enough, but James Bond has NO interest in me whatsoever.

He likes me fine as long as I stay in the box marked "Home". But when he is at work, he is entitled to the company of his female coworkers whenever they just happen to be around and there is no changing his mind on this.

We were married before he got this corporate job. As he started climbing the success ladder, he started going to company events without me. I made the fatal mistake of assuming he really wanted me there and it was just company rules that kept him from inviting me. I got to find out much later that oh, no, he liked that rule just fine the way it was. Now he's one of that rule's most ardent supporters.

I cannot tell you how stupid I feel.
Mulan

Mulan, I've been following your posts, and feel our situations are similar. My H doesn't travel as much, but he is in an administrative position where there a lot of young naive new-grad chics (like I once was) who "look up" to him and admire him as a boss. He's a very good administrator, very authoritative boss. Completely opposite his passive aggressive home personality.

He goes to occasional conferences which is where his last EA began. He has one he's going to Sunday with 2 women and 1 other man. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him and the days leading up to him leaving are miserable. I feel very resentful, particulalry b/c I gave up my very rewarding career to raise our babies, and he continues to climb the ladder and gets constant positive reinforcement from his career.

Prior to our girls coming along, my EN's were met through my job. So, now, when I needed him the most for EN's is when I discover the EA, and suddenly the floor has dropped out from under me.

I'm sorry I can't offer much advice, but you have every right to question his activity on these glorious tran-continental trips. There is definiteley a tight knit boys club out there and there are no business trips or conferences that are "all business." We would be fools to buy that.

Oh, sure it is. Some experts describe real P/A behaviour as an addiction of sorts, with the person having to get their "fix" periodically. The "fix" gives them the good feeling of being in control. Seeing their spouse off-balance and upset lets them know they've WON. And there's nothing that matters more to a P/A person than knowing they've WON.

My husband WINS when he goes to some work event without me when he knows spouses could be invited but simply aren't, or when he innocently goes shopping and sightseeing in China or in Hawaii with some female coworkers while on a trip because they just happen to be there and gee what can he do. Doing these things shows me that I cannot tell him what to do. He knows these things will upset me, but that only reassures him that he is totally in control and HE HAS WON.

It's a very tough habit to break. And I do fear that because he compartmentalized his life for so long - Home in one box and Work in another - that he may never be able to change this. He is happy as long as I stay only in the box marked Home and for years and years and years he very successfully used his P/A tactics to keep me there.

I know what he's doing now, but it may be too late to ever change his mindset on it. He's gotten away with it for so long, and so much damage has been done, that I don't think I'll have the stomach to try to change it now. I've already had a very bad morning, but at least I know what I am dealing with now and that DOES make it easier to deal with. And accept.

thanks for listening
Mulan

Let me ask all of you a question:

When Company-Sponsored Events are held by your or your spouse's workplace - things such as holiday parties, awards banquets, and other celebrations of success - and these things are held in a public place such as a restaurant or a resort or a hotel ballroom - are spouses invited, too?

Or are these events ONLY for the employees with spouses unwelcome and uninvited?

thanks -
Mulan

Mulan,

I think we have all been on here long enough to know that we can't change someone else, only ourselves. Your husband KNOWS his behaviour hurts you, yet he continues to do it. The choice really is yours. Can you be the person who stays in her home box or do you need it all?

My WH does the EXACT same thing. Home is home and work is work and never the two shall meet. I am in the process of trying to figure out how to remove myself from the situation. I want it ALL with my husband. I have settled for a part of his life for far too long.

Do you know FOR SURE that spouses are not invited or is that what your husband tells you? Have you ever popped in to one of these employees only functions to see if anyone else brought their spouse?

Our functions were all military and spouses are invited most of the time. Some choose to bring them some choose not to.

Anyone who runs a company and wants their employees to be happy and healthy would involve spouses and families in after hours events. I have never and would never work for someone who didn't plan for spouses at holiday/ after hour parties.

My husband uses the p-a tactic of "I didn't know spouses were invited"...such a smart man yet so CLUELESS...I've often thought about calling his secretary and asking her to send a note home in his backpack regarding up-coming events. As well as a calender, as he conveniently forgets late night meetings, conferences until the day before.

There are many employers who don't seem to give a ****. My sister had to attend a 1 month training course 2000 miles from her home and husband and baby. All of the "students" stayed in the same hotel, and were encouraged to have meals together, including dinner with drinks. A whole bunch of them ended up having an affair. She worked for Social Security.

When I worked in military housing for the Federal Gov., there was a 2 week class in Florida - same story. Meals together and back to the same hotel. We used to call it the "Adultery Class".

Sounds like the company is the OW and the only way to save the marriage is for him to have no contact with the company anymore.

Mulan - when are you moving on? It's been 6 months since your son's graduation. That was your excuse for staying before. Now what is it? Money? Take care of it. Finish the book, get Fabio lined up for a photo shoot with a bimbo from the office just for a final shot at your husband and be gone!

There is a small reason for not inviting spouses to business social events: they are considered to be " benefits in kind" if non employees attend, which incur tax liability both on the employee and sometimes the company.

Main reason, however, is that the employees don't want spouses there so they can get maximum ENs fulfilled by work IME. Its like a teen inviting their parents to a frat party.

Also the work GANG tend to have blackmailable "on the road "dirt on their fellows, and that makes for prickly times with spouses there. Again IME.

Its [email]cr@p.[/email]

That's the truth and I've known that for a long time. His company is his wife and mistress and family all rolled into one.


Actually, since I discovered the info here at MB about living with a Passive/Aggressive spouse, things have gotten much better. As you can see, I am still struggling with his tendency to shut me out whenever he goes to work, but *at least I feel that I understand how to deal with it now*. I also know that these are very hard habits to break and will not go away completely overnight - but once I started dealing with the P/A stuff, things improved more in six weeks than they ever had in the six years I'd been on MB up to that point.

So, that's why I'm still hanging in.
Mulan

P.S. I DID finish the book! I finished nine of them, and they were all published. The last one hit the stores in February 2006.