Before the affair began, my husband said to me, "You have no right to object to my going out to lunch with Sophia because we had agreed I could spend $200 a month on lunches."

I was buying clothes at the thrift store, and he was entertaining a married woman openly.

My father is the only person in my family of origin to hold out hope for our family because, in his view, my husband is now "his own worst critic."

BUT -- the fact is that I was willing to violate the POJA to support what was negative for me and positive for him, over and over and over again. In effect, I supported him in selfishness.

My wakeup was when the affair was exposed. He blamed me. Not for one instant did I blame myself. It took some time for me to stop blaming Sophia. Now I see that Sophia's husband was right: "If it hadn't been Sophia, it would have been someone else."

You are at the start of a relationship. Tell him how you feel bothered. Don't discount your feelings. Don't try to seek therapy for unreasonable feelings. Let him respond.

If he isn't willing to consider your feelings with movies with a friend, that is a path that can lead to affairs and abuse and the taunting that Mulan describes.

Ultimately, affairs are just a thoughtless decisions. They aren't intended, usually, to hurt the spouse. The spouse simply isn't considered.

Respectful

puzzled1,
the easiest way for me to start discussions about POJA topics with my W is to ask her: "What would it take for you to be enthusiastic about (insert topic of discussion.)"

In your case, you could insert "not going to your friends and watching these movies."

It opens the discussion and you explore each others feelings. If he can care for you, and protect your feelings even if he doesn't aggree with your point of view, then I vote to explore the relationship. If he makes light of your feelings, and tells you you are the one with the problem, you may have your answer.

POJA is a wonderful concept. It's a way for two people who love and respect each other to explore solutions to differences.

I think you are trying to outline your core values and see if they match his. I believe this is a good thing. There are often many differences between people with varied backgrounds, but it's important to match your core values with those of the person you want to marry. It pays to be careful with this. Care taken now can save much heartache later.

SS

Puzzled, if your boyfriend were still spending the same amount of time with his friend, but was playing video games or discussing politics or playing golf instead of watching movies, would you still have a problem with it? I'm just curious if it is the movies that is the true problem, or if it is the time spent with somebody else that is the true problem?

Wow, what wonderful help and advice. Thank you all so much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I want to learn to resolve conflict now, which can really help a future (possible) marriage. My prior marriage fell apart largely because of my willingness to "sacrifice" things that bothered me, causing lots of resentment and a divorce. I would give anything to have learned the POJA years ago.

Answers to questions asked:

Cathys01: No, I would love his spending time with this friend playing video games, golf, or discussing politics, etc. I am enthusiastic about his friendships and opportunities to relax with friends!

Larousse, Shaden, Respectful, and Still Seeking: Thank you for your very helpful insights. It's so good to be reminded that judgements have no place in a loving relationship...either mine or his.

Mulan: You asked what about the movies bothers me (pg13 or R contents): oh, major cleavage, women naked in sex scenes, in bras and panties, slow-motion captures of men staring at jiggly women, bikini-clad babes, etc etc. The general use of women as sexual objects, whether clothed or not, is very bothersome to me.

Respectufl, I am so sorry for what you've been through. Your insight is so valuable! You said we can either:

"1) Accept the feelings of both persons and figure out what behaviors will be positive for both and only act in that way.

2) Make judgments about the feelings of the other and make decisions based on those judgments."

Kudos! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />I've been getting well-meaning advice from a friend who says that I should disregard my feelings and accept him unconditionally. I guess MB has opened up a new way of love to me. In my marriage, I felt as you did. I accepted disrespectful judgements and eventually lost all love for him. My husband did not have an affair (other than with pornography on occasion), but next time around, I am determined to take both of our feelings into account. My ex actively avoided movies, tv, sexually tempting situations (on his own, not by my request), probably because he realized the incredible pull. So I felt very safe, and even when the porn surfaced, I didn't feel threatened as much as very, very sad. But I was withdrawn from the relationship by that time, anyway.

My current boyfriend does not avoid these situations, but he says the images do not tempt him in that way. I want to believe him, but have caught him turned on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />(i.e. sweaty, startled) by looking at an internet photo...not nude, just scantily clad. It bothered me, we've talked about it, he's apologized, but still insists that he's not "moved" by those things.

That's a good insight about the gap between giving up an old habit and building a new one which is approved by both people, Respectful. Thank you for that encouragment.

I want so badly for this relationship to be wonderful for both of us, and his happiness is very important to me! Yes, he is willing to find another activity, and I am so grateful. My main concern is that I do not want resentment to build inside of him. His "taker" has to be happy, too.

Does it help to brainstorm solutions together for their activities? Unfortunately, it's nearly winter, so many outdoor activities are impossible. Does anyone have any alternative ideas?

Again, thank you so much for responding, everyone. I was beginning to think that happiness and compatibility were impossible, and thinking I was neurotic.

Have you and your fiance filled out the Emotional Needs questionnaire? Do you know what his most important ENs are? Does he know yours?

Is he ever disrespectful or neglectful of you when images of sexy women are around? Since those are never going to go away, you will need to identify just exactly what it is that's causing the problem. Do such images bother you if you happen to be alone when you see them, or do they only bother you when your fiance is there, too?

Mulan

Incubation.

That means that you discuss it and sleep on it. It may take some time to come up with alternatives, but the ideas will come.

When a person cares about you, they value your feelings, and they want to protect you from harm - even emotional harm. A person who cares about you, and protects your feelings will explore and respectfully discuss your concerns.

One of the best ways to find other activities that both of you can participate in is to fill out the The Recreational Enjoyment Inventory (REI).
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.html

Find things you both want to do, and do them. My W and I have a date nearly every weekend. One week I am in charge, and the next week, she is in charge. We do things both of us enjoy, so the time we spend together builds the love we have for each other.

It also counts as part of the 15 hours a week we ought to spend together.

If you haven't already, I recommend the two of you read the Four rules for a successful marriage.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html

When you read, you will see how care and protection fit in with POJA, and the rule of time.

I recommend you get both "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters, Habits that destroy romantic love.". If you can read, and agree on the basic concepts, you will be well on your way to a healthy relationship. These books can be purchased from this web site, but I found them locally also.

We were able to improve our marriage using these tools, and I would guess they would help you just as much.

SS

PS, I don't think you are neurotic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Holy moly, what you're saying is in NO WAY related to what I said. I said looking, not taking them out to lunch, not insulting you openly by comparing you to them as if there was something wrong with you. Those guys are automatically in the wrong. I agree there.

Please do not take my opinions and twist them out of proportion. My opinions were not a 'wretched ploy:' she does not have to deal with disrespectful behavior, but simply looking at other attractive women is NOT disrespectful behavior. Simply watching movies that have attractive women in them is NOT disrespectful behavior. Being this uncomfortable about such nonthreatening things shows that something is DEFINITELY wrong.

Ok Now MY two cents.

Instead of trying to change a boyfriend and work on POJA with him find a different boyfriend.

I see some saying your fiancee but I see you saying boyfriend.

Look if he likes going to PG 13 movies and rated R movies and this is an issue with you then you should decide to move on.

Find a man that doesn't like going to those types of movies.

I mean really if I liked going to the movies with a friend and my Girlfriend didn't like me seeing girls I would have to run for the hills.

Is he allowed to watch TV or is the Parental control locked on that too. I mean some of the comericials are PG 13.

Is he allowed to check the mail? There could be a flyer with women in their undies.

He is not at all being disrespectful of you.

I think it is disrespectful you are trying to censure him and use POJA as a way to do it.

frognomore... I agree with you in that this particular issue should not be a big deal... going to a PG13 movie.

What is a big deal is for both of them to learn to communicate about it, learn to understand both points of view, and decide what will be your own boundaries and core values. If, after doing these things, they both still feel that way, then you are correct for them to find a new relationship.

Far too often, we marry figuring that we can change this behavior later... that it is no big deal. But it is. These turn into real problems later unless we use them to learn how to communicate.

Maybe it's not worth the hassle and she should move on, but these problems with boundaries and communication will only come back with the next boyfriend.

This is the time to learn.

Shaden

The point of the POJA is that there is no "soulmate" out there whose values will match yours exactly. Don't go looking for a guy who isn't interested in PG 13 movies. Instead, find a guy who is willing to give up anything that is negative for you -- without judgment -- to find what works for both. BUT you need to be willing to do the same.

By the way, without judgment doesn't mean without discussion. With discussion, there may be a way that he could go to movies and you would be happy.

That's the POJA.

Wish I'd understood that before I married. My husband has called it "just plain wrong", "impractical", "your way to control me"...He's said it "denies individuality."

Harley calls it "simple thoughtfulness."

Respectful

Thanks, Respectful. Also Shaden and Mulan for your help.

We'll begin discussion and negotiation over the weekend, and I'll update you ASAP.

Thanks a bunch!!! And thanks for saying I'm not neurotic. It's true, the "soulmate" answer doesn't work. Mutual respect for feelings does work, as does "eliminating judgement."

And yes, I must abide by the POJA, too. I guess that's what it MB means by "creating compatibility" over time.

By the way, Respectful, is your husband any more POJA-ish? Have things improved?

Why are some people so opposed to being asked to avoid behavior that hurts someone? Because we can't "see" the pain <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Possible Physical Example to Illustrate Emotional Insecurity: What if I had a toe fungus, painful when stepped upon? My boyfriend knows this, but he likes to dance even though he occassionally steps on it, causing great pain. Yes, the problem is the toe fungus (my physical "flaw" if you will), would it be controlling for me to ask him to stop dancing with me? No. It's not his fault the fungus is there...but it's there, and as a person who cares for me, he should avoid activities which would hurt it. I suppose if he had ambitions to be a famous dancer, we'd better look elsewhere.

Now, further, this toe could heal someday with the right treatment, and dancing might be resumed later. But for now, it is not controlling to forbid dancing.

In this case, it's far better for me to sit in his lap ...something which would make us both enthusiastic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hooray for clarification! Thanks for the encouragement and help. We're on our way to building compatibility.

PS. We're not engaged at this point.

Puzzled1

If a man didn't get turned on (at least a little) by seeing a scantilly clad beautiful woman, I would wonder if he was into women at all. And if not, I would not want a relationship with him. For your boyfriend to react to beauty in the opposite sex is normal and healthy.

On the other hand your problem with it might be a sign that thing are not quite right. You did not answer any of the very relevant questions regarding other similar events, such as TV, going to the beach or a resort in summer, even walking down the street.

I think some of the people, especially the men for whom this is probably a very sensitive subject, feel that what you're asking is unreasonable.

Studies have shown that a man thinks of sex about every 8 seconds. Believe me, he doesn't have to see it on a screen, a man can see it in his mind.

Funny thing about the brain: if you look at a clock on the wall, then you look away and picture a clock on the wall, a human brain cannot distinguish the difference.

Now think about that for a minute.

How are you going to police his thoughts? You can't.

Now what's the real honest truth here? Why are you threatened by images of beautiful women? Does it have to do with your religion, or possibly weight or some body insecurity?

I have to tell you I enjoy looking at beautiful women myself, but I'm completely hetero, and I'm pretty body-confident. Maybe you might start going to the gym, if you feel you're too skinny there are protein supplements that can help. There are all kinds of things that you can do to give yourself more confidence.

A confident real woman who is relaxed and supportive of a man's masculinity is much more beautiful to most real men than any airbrushed or hollywood image.

I remember on the radio show Harley talking about a couple where the woman was upset with the man looking at other women. It turned out they lived on the beach.

They moved.

No, my H isn't interested in following the POJA. All I can do is follow it myself. What's hard about it for me is not getting sucked into doing what I am not enthusiastic about doing. At the moment, I am bringing our son to 22 activities per month. When that ends, it will not start again.

Respectful

Something is amiss here.

I would like to know:
Your Age
His Age
Duration of your Relationship
Kids
Are you living together

I agree there is no such thing as a soulmate but you should at least pick a person based on some commonality.

I am going to give a very extreme example and it is only an example.

As a man I love to go to nudey bars twice a week. As a women when you meet me I am a wonderful man except I like to go to the nudey bars twice a week. You hate I do this. Then leave me. Do not stay around and try to change me. Why would you get involved with a man that likes to go to nudey bars if you object to it? How did it get far enough that you think you know have the right to ask me not to go.

If you object to it and I have done it since you met me then you either accept it or not get this far.

I dated a lot of women that did things I did not like. I just didn't get serious with them. I dated them, had fun with them but I knew that issue would bug the heck out of me.

Now if he hid the fact he did this or started after you dated ok you have a right to ask him not to do that. But if he did it before then you made the choice to stay.

What would you say if he said fine we will POJA on this as long as you are the one that agrees to change.

Sounds like your idea of POJA is for him to entuhsiasticaly agree to stop going.

Then onto the women thing. Yes men look at women. Yes men look at attractive women. I will tell you I have never and will never gawk at a women in front of my FWW. But I do look.

If women want us to stop looking then tell all women to stop wearing shirts that show so much cleavage I can see every birth mark from your belly button to your chin and stop wearing skirts so short that if you stand on your tippy toes I can see butt cheeks. Sorry but men are going to look.

So ladies stand at arms agains the hoochies so we have less to look at.

You made me laugh frog, I admit you made me laugh.

I don't think it's so plain that she ought to just take him, or leave him. It may be that it's not that important to him, and he might want to do things differently.

I still think communication is a good starting place.

There may be things in her past (or her X's past) that make this an important issue to her. I agree we don't have all the information.

SS

Seems to me that POJA is needed here. Theres no such thing as reasonable or unreasonable, only what we will or will not tolerate from others or for others.

If puzzled's BF is prepare dto never look at an attractive woman other than her ever again to quell her anxiety, everything should be OK.

If not - seems to me there may be a fundamental incompatability here.

As for me, I know of NO straight man who doesn't have his eyes linger on a lovely female form in appreciation. I could no more stop it than I could sneeze with my eyes open.

This is an interesting thread!

Puzzled's point of view is actually shared by many, many people (men and women of a certain faith). These people have an effective way to deal with visual infidelity by insisting the women wear veils outside the home. Some of the women are so heavily cloaked they can hardly see where they're going.

I just wanted to point out that puzzled is not alone in her viewpoint.

Personally, if I had to choose between the veil and my husband looking at hoochies, I say let him look!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Still,

I am always good for a laugh.

I stick by what I said though. Do not try to change someone into what you want. Find someone more closely compatible to you.

If she wants a man that never looks at women in real life or in PG 13 movies she should go hang out at a Celine Deon concert to find the right man. If she can't make it to Vegas she can go to a local Gay bar.

She will find all kinds of men that will not show the least bit of interest in women except maybe for their shoes and handbags.

I like saturns view as well. No veil for my hoochies. Burka's aren't in this year in Milan.

All kidding aside. I think that there is an issue here with her. Low self esteem, imaturity, I don't know but in the grand scheme of life going to the movies with a buddy is not that big of a deal.

Wish that was my biggest problem.

Find someone who cares enough about you to make changes that work for him and are positive for you.

Find someone who believes in the POJA.