Hello all,

I have been lurking around these boards for a few months now.They have helped me understand what infidelity is really about and what makes WS's tick.

But since this weekend, when I found a note my wife wrote to herself, I have been wondering something. The note was basically comparing the OM and myself, listing the pro's and cons of each of us. The thing that got to me was that his list of pro's was much longer than mine.

Now she has been out of the company she was working at (and having the affair at) for about 3 months. She enjoys her new job and we are doing "okay". She doesn't see this guy anymore, but obviously thinks about him.

But what I am wondering is this. What if he is her perfect partner? What if she really does love this other person more than she ever loved me? I know we all like to refer to these things as "fog", but what if it really is the truth? I don't believe there is one person for each of us. And maybe the OP does really provide them more than we ever could have. I know we all like to say that "it's just a fantasy" and "it's just fog speak", but how many ways are there of telling someone that you just don't love them anymore? So of course all WS's are going to say the same thing. What else do you say?

So are we just fooling ourselves by labeling this as "fog speak"?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Mrs Troughtheglass:

I love OM so much, he is my soul mate. I never have to live in the real world with him. I don't have bills or kids to worry about with him. I don't have to take care of him when hes sick, I don't do his washing. Its all fun and not much work, he just "gets me", its so easy to talk to him.

I have all those problems with my H, that old boring guy.

Oh yeah!! My H is not a cheater, but OM is - I sure so love that OM and I can trust him, I'm special!!!

I seem a little rude, but that is the way I view it.
M2L

That is funny M2L. When my wife and I were talking about it I asked her if she left me for him wouldn't she be concerned he would cheat on her (mind you, she knows of 2 other women in the company he was having affairs with)
She said with her and him it was different.

TTG

I think they are telling the truth - it's their reality. They are excluding facts from their view of reality (all the mundane facts of life and being married) and are free to explore their perception of the perfect mate, because they are projecting this onto the other person who is all too happy to play the part. They love the fantasy more than they love the reality of their spouse - the relationship is stage I which can't be compared to a good stage II relationship. They think they are comparing two people, but rather they are comparing their misrepresented impression of 2 people. It's their own ideals and values that are so appealing in the other person, not that person.

Not rude at all M2L...You told it just like it is, and I say this of course as a FWS myself...M2L, you are fast becoming one of my faves around these parts...keep up the great posts!

Throughtheglass...You are God's perfect choice for your wife-internalize that and act accordingly-confidence is HOT...

People in affairs feed each other a line of ego stroking bullcrap, just to get it in return...Much like a cocaine addicted caged rat pushing a button for a fix...

Think back to how you felt when you dated a new girl in high school or college and she seemed oh so "perfect", until the new worn off...Or even better, did you ever have a vacation romance? THAT is how it is in affairs...IMMATURE FOG BABBLE LUST...

Mrs. W

The fact that she listed ANYTHING good about you on the list is a good sign. Usually they can't remember any of their spouse's good points.

My WH walked out, and into the sunset with the OW, after knowing her a month. After a 3 and a half year affair, they decided they weren't "soulmates". It ruined his life. He was a slow learner. Most WS's realize they are making a mistake much sooner.

Just curious - what were your good points?

Sounds like something a teenager would write, really.

I can't say that I don't think about the things you have written in your post, but that is me not detaching from WH. If you don't want to call it 'fog speak', then call it DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR. Marriage and Affairs cannot truly be compared.

Couple of things come to mind when I read this...Click here for the first, and here for the second...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thank you all very much for your insight. I really do appriciate that people are willing to take the time to respond.

believer,
I guess that is the thing I am a little embarrased about. When I said my list was short, I mean really short. According to her, I am a "good person".

He gets things like "touch, taste, love, travel, social life" etc. I guess if she leaves me for him she is planning on quitting her job and becoming a socialite.Considering we already have 2 trips planned for next year to incredible places, how much travelling can people do?

I don't know, this whole list thing just really through me for a loop. Sometimes I feel it wouldbe better for myself and my son to just walk away. Plan B the he11 out of her for good.

Ha-ha. They are ALL so much alike! My WH told me that I was "more his speed." In otherwords - stable, predictable, old and boring.

"touch, taste, love, travel, social life" sounds like a fantasy. She seems to have left out FAMILY.

I think people often try to delude themselves with bullcrap when they are doing something wrong, but deep down they don't believe their bullcrap. If they are so disconnected with reality that they believe their own bullcrap, they are probably seriously mentally ill.

Its not really a matter of REALLY believing it, its a matter of WANTING to believe it. As if that belief could ALTER reality. hope, hope, hope! Unfortunately, that doesn't work in real life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mel<-----reformed [censored] artist <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

TTG,

Please understand that what YOU choose to believe is what matters here...

You decide...and it looks like, what you decide to believe decides your future.

Kinda backwards to me. Your life.

Take it from another RWW (recovered), she's not right in the head. I remember! Let me let you in on a secret...

If this was a REAL pro's and con's list, you both would show up exceedingly alike...except you're FAITHFUL.

She's in love with the feelings, the fantasy, not a real person. Takes years to get to know our true selves...this isn't real. And you know what he has you don't?

He's a clean slate...no history, no marks, no build up.

Make yourself a clean slate...make her one...stop pondering her what if's...my gosh, that makes you BOTH in fantasy land...choose to keep yourself awash in reality and bring that to her...

Reality is...the present. It is you CHOOSING to believe this isn't real, not using up your brain time in what if's or if only's...stick with real.

She's there...hasn't left. She's in the marriage...and may be in withdrawal.

Take how long the affair went on (from first fantasy to enactment), then make it one month of withdrawal for every three months in the affair...I'm so making this up...give you a guess at how long withdrawal takes after NC is established...

Now...are you serious about recovering your marriage?

Are you both in MC and/or IC?
Are you guys doing the questionnaires here, at least 15 hours of UA (including a healthy dose of fun RC together), communication exercises? Are you safe enough to be shared with, and brave enough to share, be O&H?

You don't want to go through this ever again...that's a given. Do the work now...get to a lot of stuff through this opportunity...and please choose to believe me...

There is mortification in her future (if not already) about what she wrote, did, thought, felt, perceived and believed....HORRIFIC, abject, stark mortification...I know. I remember. I'm blushing a bit and it's been over two years for me. Shame's like a stain.

Heal each other...help each other to stay in reality...and know that her penchant to self-soothe with fantasy was long before she met you...was yours?

You don't want her to choose toxic fantasies in her mind, do you? Then you don't do it, either.

Get the books, down to the nitty gritty education...and learn to thrive. You can do this. Keep posting and sharing...

And whatever you CHOOSE to believe, share with her. Your O&H is as important as hers. Share your feeling when you read her note...journal...whatever it was...or is...share your thoughts and fears, what you perceive...commit to not acting from any of what is yours, until you are brave enough to share it, safely.

In your corner,

LA

Hi and welcome to MB, Mr. Glass <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Listen, as a FWW myself, I would die a more embarrassing death than you if I pulled out a pro/con list I wrote at the time of the affair -- and yes, I actually DID write one.

It's amazingly sickening to realize how I twisted my (now ex)H's good points into baddies.

Here's an example -- My ex-H works very VERY hard. On my list, I called him a workaholic (a con). The OM was "relaxed" (a pro)...

In reality, my ex was (and is) a hard worker who NEVER let me or our kids go hungry. He mowed lawns and took cans and bottles to the recycler when he couldn't find a job. He was an EXCELLENT husband in that way.

The OM? He was lazy, plain and simple.

See, you can't trust a WS. You can't trust their words, or their feelings. And frankly, it's all about revising the truth, anyway, as I've shown above.

PS: I've apologized and thanked my ex-husband from the deepest part of my soul for the goodness he brought to our marriage. He had his own issues, to be sure (he was a WS several times in our 20 year marriage)... BUT... I was wrong about a lot of things, and I didn't realize it until AFTER the affair was long-over.

Well, I don't know. Maybe I have to agree with TTG. Sometimes WS may be telling the truth, and it's more than just their truth du jour.

FWW made a similar list. And this was ten years into the VLTA. The fantasy had worn off long ago. So it must have been rational thinking by then, right? Yes, she thought it through, and she was pretty certain about her list.

I don’t agree with her list, of course. I had myself convinced she was right back then. But not now.


TTG, if this list you found isn’t some special intel for which you cannot reveal your sources, just ask her about it. Ask her what she wants to do about it. Get a data point so you can see things evolve from here.

Even if she is still in withdrawal. It will help you. It did me anyway.

Oh, and I would not bet the farm on there being complete NC yet. That assumption bit me more than once.


With prayers,

Mel-
Thanks for that.I just don't understand why she WANTS to believe what she is wrote/thinks.

Mentally ill? I think that may be debatable.

LA-
I have been following this site for quite a few months. I have been in a Plan A for a few months also. I read everything I can get my hands on. These forums have helped me tremendously.

That being said, I really don't know what I want to do. Part of me wants things to work out, but the other part of me wants to just walk away from it all. I accept my share of the blame with the problems we had in our marriage. But believe me, they were not unsurmountable problems at all. But when I think about her sleeping with some other guy, it kind of sickens me. That is my demon to deal with. She is such a beautiful woman, and this guy is such a pig. And I know what you all think 'oh he is probably not that bad, this BS is just bitter'. That is not the case at all, this guy looks like Shrek's ugly brother. No lie.

New Beginning-
I understand that there is still 'fog'. I sat there and took each blow like a champ when she was telling me how she felt about this guy and why she was thinking of leaving. But something about seeing it written down on paper just seemed to reach into my chest and yank my heart out. It hurt bad.

Thank you all so much for reading through this. I may be babbling a bit or going off on tangents, but it just all gets jumbled in my head and I have got to get it out.

It's all part of the disease. My WH was a member of our church for 20 years. It was important in his life all of that time. We did veteran outreach work on weekends. He said family was the center of his life.

He picked an OW who doesn't have any religion, they cheated while her husband was fighting in Iraq, and she completely abandoned her daughter to live with my WH. Go figure.

I will tell you that getting rid of the WS doesn't make things any easier. It is still very painful, and there is no chance to rebuild a life and memories together.

If you feel like going off then do so, but here not with your wife. We know what you are feeling.

best wishes
M2L

I'm going to take a back handed middle of the road approach.

First of all..no one exists in stasis...we are fluid creatures..we change all the time...so no one is a perfect match for anyone ever as it is impossible to be on the same page at the same time effortlessly and consistently.

WE obviously for good or ill were a suitable match for our spouse at one point or we wouldn't have married them or they us. For whatever combination of reasons we were on the same page with them at least once..lol.

Do I think it's possible that an OP can be CURRENTLY better matched with the WS than the BS is...sure. I am familiar enough with WS script to KNOW that WS and OP are operating on the same wavelength...wanting the same things...and placing value on the same things.

Do I also think it's possible that a WS and an OP may be just generally a better match in temrs of how they approach life? Certainly. Even if they both process things UNHEALTHILY they may process them in a way that the other finds more acceptable.

These aren't really the issues I struggle with. My question is why anyone cares.

I could find someone who was a better fit for me too...especially after having spent YEARS studying relationship dynamics. Since I don't believe in soul mates but I DO believe in coping skills I have to say that I am of the Too [email]D@mn[/email] Bad camp when it comes to OP being a better fit.

You can't unlive your life, undo the choices you have made...the ties you have made...the investments you have made and the COMMITTMENTS you have made because you have a bad case of grass is greener syndrome. If anything you cause yourself nothing but REGRET in taking your eyes off of your OWN life and looking at alternatives that do not or should not exist. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's when they get lost you know. When they take their eyes of the road.

Thanks for sharing those wonderful thoughts Noodle!

TTG,

"She is such a beautiful woman, and this guy is such a pig. And I know what you all think 'oh he is probably not that bad, this BS is just bitter'. That is not the case at all, this guy looks like Shrek's ugly brother. No lie."

I'm sorry, I'm rolling with laughter. TTG? Get this absolutely straight...all OPs are PIGS. They are. Nature of the cheating beast. No one has an Upward Affair...isn't possible. See, part of that clean slate is being attracted to a total loser because then you can MAKE THEM UP into whatever shiny knight you want. If that doesn't tell you he's a total fantasy, I don't know what will...he's not real.

Does point out you don't believe all humans beings are equal...and we are. Loser actions don't make the person a loser...beastly choices do not make the beast. Let go this comparison...all BS go through it...because that's YOU doing it to YOU. You're comparing, dwelling...making it your treasure. Free yourself.

Focus on your choice of goal...decide your goal. Either to really save your marriage...so you can say you did everything possible, whether it is saved or not...have learned and grown a heckuva lot...or choose to divorce now. If this was your dealbreaker, no matter, what, then divorce. Hard part about that choice is that you won't know if it truly is a dealbreaker for you or not unless you give it a shot.

My advice is if you're in the middle...not sure if you can or can't, do it anyway. Make your goal to save your marriae and live it with all you've got...can't be a fool or silly for doing that. Gives you clear eyes to look your children in the eye and say, "Here's how to live"...honestly.

Listen to Noodle...and know we're with you no matter your choice...choose a goal. Divorce is lengthy and hard, too...neither choice is easy at all. Choose a goal.

LA