Good and evil are all relative to the position of the observer. They ultimately do not exist. There is no ultimate good or ultimate evil. Everyone views things differently.

For instance: The very delicate subject of abortion. Person A may think it is an absolute abomination and a sin of the highest magnitude, that the doctor, the father, and the mother are all murderers, and that they are incredibly evil for their actions. Person B may feel that abortion as a means of birth control for irresponsible people is horrible, but that abortion in and of itself is not evil. While Person C may not see abortion as being evil in the slightest, and instead may think that removing a person's ability to make choices regarding their own bodies is a great evil, that it takes away their God-given right to free-will and thus should not be allowed.

It's all a matter of perception.

The actions, by themselves, are meaningless until they are perceived, interpreted, and judged by another, outside individual.

I could argue that an asteroid is evil because it crashed on Earth 65 million years ago and caused mass extinction. However, most people would scoff at the very idea, because an asteroid is not sentient. They would laugh, the whole idea of judging a big rock is just absurd. Yet, that big rock murdered entire species of creatures, and another big rock just like it could very easily do the same to us and everything alive on the planet today.

JMHO.

This being said, mind you, I still think my WW is an evil person who should burn in H**l for what she did to our son and I. :P

Then YOUR view that there is no ultimate good and evil is only your "relative perception," right? Therefore, my perception that good and evil are guaged by UNIVERSAL standards that exist BEYOND perception is just as valid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Shaden

It took Startin's statement to mean as coming from a WS.

In reality the Xws can also make stupid statements. With the Xws you have the ability to bring it to their attention and have a better chance they will see it and fix it themselves. Not always but sometimes.

Whereas as most WS' don't get it or don't want to get it. Thus the stupid cycle starts all over again and it gets quite frustrating.

JMHO,
L.

I understand your point, But that is not what he said.

He said his wife, when they were dating, told him that her ex was a wonderful person, except (for when he) cheated on her.

He did not say his wife cheated, though she could have, but that was not the context in which he was writing.

Maybe read his initial post again. I re-read it, and I'm certain he was discussing how the betrayed spouse views their 'wayward' as good person after they cheated.

(The operative word "had" - implicating "after".)

I agree that my husband was the embodiment of evil in many ways during his affair, but he is not evil to the core, he's a wonderful, good, loving, incredible person in every way today.

Definitely my first choice, and now that it's all said and done, I would marry him all over again even if I couldn't change what happened.

I disagree Plank. Such as these have never earned the "F". They are IMO still WS's

From Penalty Kill


I think I agree. Let's say a WS *says* he/she is no longer engaged in the A, but there is still contact w/OP. IMO, the A may be less active, but it still active. Therefore WS is not yet a FWS.

Now let's say a WS has maintained total NC and transparency for a month or so but is still in the process of learning why he/she was unfaithful, still in the process of making restitution to the BS, still in the process of learning how to communicate. I don't think it's correct to say that this FWS is another a-hole maneuver waiting to happen, simply because they haven't done enough. The FWS is not recovered, but in the process, which can take a while.

IMO, and it's just that, my opinion, NC is what separates WS from FWS. Total NC that is. Then the process of recovery can begin. As to whether the FWS is a "wonderful person" or not, that is up to the BS. Different people have different criteria.

Well, to be honest, that is about as clear as mud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So, why isn't Hitler a "normal person who made a bad choice," just like everyone else? How is evil defined, if not by ACTIONS? Why is there a different standard for Hitler? And just how should people be judged then, if not by their actions? [except Hitler, of course]


So we would judge her based on her "choices," but just not other people?

Shaden, that is just not a logically consistent philosophy. I think you are trying so hard to avoid making appropriate and rational judgements that you abandoned any consistency.

The fact is that our behavior is an reflection of our character. This is not a difficult thing to understand. Good people act good [not perfect] and bad people act bad. Bad people can turn into good people, and vice versa.

But the refusal to recognize that truth helps no one, especially the person in question. If there is no bad, after all, then there is no GOOD............and therefore, no standard to STRIVE FOR. If there are no standards, then I can convince myself that bad is good, right? Wouldn't it be a horrible world if we all pretended that bad is good?

So... for example...

The person who:

works hard on the job...
voluteers with "Habitat for Humanity"...
stays up all night to comfort her sick children...
returns to a store to return the "extra" change the cashier handed her by mistake...
and has an affair.

...is "good"?... or "bad"?

You tell me, sc. Were you a "good person" when you had your affair?

i think that depends... did the wayward volunteer and do all fo those wonderful things before the A or just during and since the A? in my opinion one could say "look at all of these wonderful things i do, i am not a bad person" and justify the a in their mind.

calling someone a 'bad' person is so leaving things wide open. my ex had numerous A's. he is manipulative, even with our own children. everything he does is for the good of HIM and no one else. he looks out for number one and that is it. bottom line is HE is all that matters. is he a bad person? im my book he is evil and is being swayed by evil ways yes. even if he did do great things and volunteered, he would be doing it not because it made him feel good but because it made him LOOK good to others.

i think it depends on who the person is, if they are truly remorseful for their affair or if they walk around justifying their affair.

i only know from my experience that yes, my h right now and for a long time has been a very bad selfish evil person. i question who even has his soul, he is certainly not motivated by Godly ways. and i think ow is not too far behind him in this and that is why they do so well together.

just my opinions from my experience.
mlhb

I suppose it all depends on what you want to accomplish. There are different criteria for different things. Consider Hitler -- he was really quite good at getting large numbers of people to follow his ideology. If he wasn't then we wouldn't even mention him because he'd be just another crackpot with meglomaniacal fantasies. Being good at getting people to follow you isn't a bad trait. What made it bad is where he decided to lead all those people. Had he made a different choice or had a different ideology, history might have treated him more like Alexander the Great (who left a bunch of bodies in his wake, too).

To bring this back to the topic -- how would you judge someone as a marriage partner or possibly co-parenting material? Clearly someone in an active affair is NOT good marriage material. But that doesn't mean s/he can't be a concert pianist, olympic gymnast, President, doctor, teacher, cler-- well, ok, probably not clergy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, secretary, gardener, etc.

Don't you know people who you like to spend time with but you wouldn't want to live with them/marry them? Heck, most of my family is really good at being dependable but they're awful to be around for longer than a few hours at a stretch. If I had to "judge" them I'd put them in the "great to have at your back -- awful to have in front of you" category.

I guess it just makes sense to keep your 'judgement' in perspective. Most of us (hopefully) aren't making existence decisions (except piojitos with all his beheadings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />) so our judgements only help us in our decision making. If someone were to decide that a person who has had an affair (current, past, whatever) is bad marriage material FOR THEM, then that's their decision. Another person might decide that as long as it's in the past -- it's ok. Another person might "put up" with it in the present.

People are varied. Good and bad are relative to the NEED of the situation. If your child needed brain surgery -- how much would the brain surgeon's marital history play into your decison? Our society does this all the time. We put up (heck, we glorify it) with obnoxious behavior from "media stars" because they are famous -- or they can catch a ball really well.

So, if someone decides that some person meets their criteria for marriage and that person wouldn't pass muster with MY set of criteria, why should I care? As long as that person isn't trying to get ME to marry him, then what's the harm? I think people can pick their own partners -- and live with the results of their decision.

I guess the summary is that when someone says "so and so is a wonderful person except ..." that I take that as the person's opinion and expect him/her to act consistently with that opinion. It's like fair warning. If I happen to think the person is evil incarnate, then I might be a lot more cautious about where and when I invite my friend because she might think it's a good idea to invite him along. If I'm ambivalent, I file it away in the list of facts about the person like favorite food, color, etc.

Either way, I come to my own decision about who I think is a "good" person -- with good being relavant as to my relationship with the person. I don't expect my surgeon to be my best friend or vice versa.



Mys

There are indeed particularly evil people in this world....Hitler is a good example, Dahmer, Hussein...armed robbers, murderers, criminals, sociopaths etc. There are indeed particularly godly people in this world who dedicate their whole lives to helping others in the most unselfish way possible.

There are probably no Hitlers or Mother Theresas here. Raise your hand if you're willing to gas and burn babies.....or leave your family and possessions to feed the poor in India.

I know of no one on MB who can claim that they "good" in the same way that Mother Theresa is good, simply because they have never had an affair....nor do I believe that people who DO have an affair are akin to Hitler or Dahmer! It may be tempting to compare having an affair with war crimes and murders....but it's a fallacious argument using exaggeration. Bad is bad.....so killing six million jews is bad.....and so is an affair....but suggesting that it takes exactly the same kind of person to do either thing....is ridiculous. We are all "good" enough to do many charitable things....but that doesn't make us a Mother Theresa. We are all "bad" enough to do selfish things....but that doesn't make us a Hitler.

The real tragedy of affairs is that GOOD people destroy otherwise GOOD lives by falling into temptation. They have enough weakness of character that remaining godly and good is a fight that defines why we need to walk with Christ so that we grow the goodness and resist the badness. When we fall....we need to find our way back to the right path.

[b]Choices can be either good OR bad....but people aren't like that. People are both good AND bad (I know of no one who possesses only one of those qualities.)

((((STAR))))

I LOVE YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THIS!!!!

I've been thinking this..EXACTLY... but didn't know how to say it!

My WH has said this to me numerous times -- "I am not a terrible person, MP'...i find it interesting because i have never told him he was a terrible person - i may have thought it for sure, but never once voiced it to him. WH says this, and in the same way each time, somewhat frequently. I think he says it to try and convince himself of this, to assuage some of the guilt he must feel. I can almost see him at home looking in the mirror and repeating it over and over - 'i am not a terrible person, i am not a terrible person'.

To echo schoolbus, WH is a good person that did a very bad thing.

I think this pretty much nails it on the head....MOST FWS's (the ones who are active in recovery, feel remorse, are trying to make amends, etc)...ARE good people who made very, very bad choices. That's really different than someone like Hitler or Dahmer or Hussain...people who MAY be inherently evil (and I'm only saying MAY be because I don't want to judge anyone; I'll leave that up to God <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.)....

We all make mistakes ~ and while I still don't feel like I personally would ever have fallen into an A., maybe it's possible...I'm human afterall.

Just like my H, and other the other FWS's out there.

We're still pretty early in recovery, and so sure, things could change...he could go back to that "evil" (read: Alien/Fogged out) person he was during and shortly after the A. ended....but right now, I see him as a good person who did a very, very, VERY bad thing. Kinda hard for me to admit since I'm in that angry stage.

BUT, it's the truth....

~MF

Wow everyone......great responses, and its very interesting to see someone elses point of view on this subject.

I do want to clarify something though......my wife NOW was married to a serial cheater. She CAUGHT her EX with 4 different women. There was more than likely many more. Anyhow, she said her EX was basically a nice guy except for his affairs. That is when I was like "WTF"???

I said........"You caught him cheating 4 times....you had to jump in your car and snoop to find him at 2am-4am in the morning" "You had a child about 2yrs old and you had to go looking for him in bars......and find him sitting there huggin and kissing on a woman".....Yet you consider that a nice guy????

That is when my wife said......."You are right, I see your point, he wasnt a nice guy at all.....he was a jerk"



MY point is, I hear this alot and read it alot in these threads where a BS calls their wayward a good person, but doesnt seem to remember the terrible things the wayward put them thru. They cant be considered a good person can they?? Bad judgement maybe ONCE is one thing, but mutltiple times??? How can that person be considered nice???

Thanks again for the comments......Im reading every single response.

My life has been turned upside down, inside out, and shaken until I can't see anymore. My life no longer resembles what I had wanted. All of this change was brought on by one man's decisions, for himself, not considering anyone else. That man still exists as if HIS choices are for the better, because HE will be happy in the end. To me, this is a bad person.

How can anyone be GOOD when they choose to deceive and betray the only people who have really been there for them and shown them love in the midst of chaos?


Now, if my WH ever decided to try and make amends for his bad choices, and attempt to heal the wounds that he has made, I may consider him a good person again.

I've broken up with BF's in my life before, and caused them great amounts of pain because I chose to move on without them, and at the time, I felt like a piece of crap because I hurt them. Does that make me bad always? Or is it only when you are married that you are bad for leaving your partner?

Wow. What a topic.

You know how WS’s have their fog? How they rewrite history to serve their needs and spin everything to make you think your crazy? How they think only of the one and not the family? How they put their S at risk for potential death from disease and unpredictable actions of the OP? How they will REFUSE to look in the mirror and judge themselves? How they justify “[color:"blue"] one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse[/color]”?

Now think about how they try to mitigate the tragedy of their A on their own life and the life of their S. You know how they then try to minimize the guilt? How they try to say it wasn’t really love? How they feel suicidal and depressed? How they doubt their self worth?

All coping mechanisms to avoid dealing with the truth of their actions.

Then you have the rationalizations of the BS. Sometimes just as extreme in redirecting energy away from the real truth and the root of the problems at hand in recovery, after NC has been realized.

But, in the end here is reality. This is what it really is….

You open the pages of the book of life that are the written day to day accountings of your S’s life and read the truth of their defining actions!

If they have chapters where they inflicted harm on other people for their own benefit, then sorry but they are “bad” in that chapter.

If they have a bad chapter that is followed by chapters of growth, betterment, commitment, focus, and works of goodness then you have a person that is defining themselves with actions of good, thus a good person.

If their chapters are all written about selfishness, consequence avoidance, immaturity, disrespectfulness, self glorification, and repeatedly offensive behavior to the people they love the most then you have a shmuck again.

Also keep in mind how we can focus on our WSes while forgetting that we ALL, including us BSes, have "SINNED and FALLEN SHORT" as my grandmothers used to say..."WE ALL FALL DOWN BUT WE CAN GET UP"....None of us are unblemished...